The key to most conspiracy theories comes down to one statement:

[MineralMan]

"The government is keeping secrets and won't give us the truth."

Since it's impossible to prove that statement is incorrect, it is always part of conspiracy theories. By saying that, the implication is that if only the government would release the truth, we'd all know that the conspiracy theory is correct.

UFOs
Area 51
JFK's Assassination
FEMA Camps
9/11 Truthers
TWA Flight 800

Since the statement can't be proven wrong, the conspiracy theorists simple restate it again and again, as if it were evidence that proves their theory. By making the statement, any sort of argument can be made that cannot be proven to be false.

Aliens from outer space are visiting us.
The Government has a crashed UFO.
A nefarious plot involving whoever you like was involved in Kennedy's assassination.
The government has built top-secret FEMA camps to imprison "enemies of the state."
9/11 wasn't caused by two aircraft crashed into those buildings. It's something else.
Missiles shot down TWA Flight 800, and it's being kept secret.

None of the statements above can be disproven, so the conspiracy theories must be true. It's a simple logical flaw, and one that has been used just about forever to convince people that a conspiracy exists, and it's being kept a secret from us.

That's it in a nutshell. That's why DU has a Creative Speculation group. That's why conspiracy theories belong in that group, and not in GD, in my opinion.

[Scootaloo]

1. In more concise form...

In conspiracy theory, lack of evidence is in itself, evidence.

[MineralMan]

3. Exactly.

Kind of like "faith is the evidence of things unseen." Bad logic.

[Vashta Nerada]

15. That can be said about religion also.

[MineralMan]

21. And it often is said.

[Scootaloo]

39. A reason I take neither seriously

[MineralMan]

45. Wisdom.

[Major Nikon]

83. No arguments there

Hitchens' razor still applies.

[Empowerer]

71. And anything that disproves a conspiracy is further evidence of the existence of a conspiracy

[polichick]

2. Problem is: "The government is keeping secrets and won't give us the truth"...

is too often accurate so...

[MineralMan]

4. So nothing.

If you can prove that statement to be true in a particular case, then that's all good. If not, then you have nothing but some belief that something is hidden and being kept secret. Belief is not evidence. It is merely belief.

[polichick]

8. It's simple. You don't trust people (or an org/entity) that you have found...

not to be truthful in the past.

[MineralMan]

11. Actually, I do trust unless I am proven to be incorrect with

actual evidence. The Warren Commission Report, which I read from front to back, made sense. I'm not interested in speculation about that event. Sorry.

Look at the list of events I presented. Which do you things are not as they are described? Why do you think that? If it's based on something that could have happened, rather than evidence, then I'm not interested. Almost anything could happen. Demonstrating that it did requires actual evidence to that effect, not speculation.

[polichick]

16. I take everything the gov't says with a big grain of salt...

There are far too any special interests involved in every issue.

You can't prove any official story is true - and many people think other explanations make as much or more sense as the official story.

People can think for themselves - we don't have to be good little pawns.

[MineralMan]

18. What you believe is what you believe.

That's none of my business, really. For myself, belief is based on evidence. It always has been. Speculation isn't part of my life, frankly. Either someone shows me that things are not what they are described to be or I'm not buying it. In all of the situations I listed, I've seen a great deal of evidence that supports the current accepted explanation. I don't believe that UFOs from other worlds have visited Earth. I don't believe that 9/11 happened in any other way than what I observed for myself as it happened. I believe JFK was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald, and that we will not know his motivations for doing so, since he is dead. I believe Elvis is dead.

I've seen the evidence that supports each of those things. People's speculations about them that are based on some sort of "secret-keeping" are not convincing. Sorry. You might think differently, and that's fine with me. I'm just making my point here. You needn't accept it. I'm just a DUer here.

[polichick]

20. What "evidence" - whatever is shoveled out for public consumption?

Conspiracy theories often involve conflicting "evidence." People can look at it all and decide what makes logical sense to them.

[MineralMan]

23. We seem to have reached an impasse here.

I'm out of this subthread, then.

[polichick]

29. In other words, you got nothin' - no worries.

[Blanks]

66. How about the 'West Memphis 3'...

I realize its not a conspiracy theory, but a lot of people believed that they were guilty because of the information that was released.

I worked with a former law enforcement officer and he KNEW they did it.

I think it's representative of all conspiracy theories because the government controlled the information. The prosecutor's office was the entity that decided what to pursue and what not to pursue. They had a lot of control over what the press covered.

In my mind this brings into question the conclusions that the government came to in the 911 investigation and the JFK assassination. Not that I believe necessarily that the conclusions that they came to are incorrect, but that there is room to suspect that perhaps they didn't pursue all possible avenues before the trail went cold, and their statement (the government's) is the official statement. Yet, the West Memphis 3 are free today because they didn't do it.

Then there is Hurricane. Spent all that time in prison when there wasn't any proof. I like conspiracy theories because they demonstrate that if the government does a half ass job of investigating something - it never goes away.

Conspiracy discussions belong in a certain place as the OP stated, but there are cases where history has shown that things were ignored in investigations and innocent people suffered - I don't think it's much of a stretch to suspect that the federal government isn't always diligent in its efforts. The unfortunate thing about it is that conspiratologists aren't under any obligation to be honest either, so they are even more likely to spew BS than the government, and there's only so much fact checking a person can do sitting in front of their computer.

I think that there is more good that comes from questioning everything than bad. I will always be suspicious of the twin towers collapse because its not consistent with my experience with concrete and steel failure, but that discussion belongs elsewhere.

[stopbush]

32. The same people who question anything the government says have no problem cashing in

their tax refunds.

Why these people just expect that check to be honored remains a mystery. Isn't our government "broke?"

[polichick]

40. Easy to determine if the check is good - just cash it...

Not so easy to determine if the "intelligence" is accurate, or if the people are getting the whole story about something.

btw, we aren't broke - we just spend far too much on the mic, which amounts to shitloads to private contractors and corporations.

[stopbush]

82. Just as it's easy to determine if forensic evidence is good, like that of the JFK case.

Does the evidence stand up scientific scrutiny. If it does, you can take it to the bank.

Interpretation of the scientific evidence is, of course, a matter of interpretation to some extent. But when more evidence is considered in a particular case, a volume of corroborative evidence tends to narrow the spectrum of interpretation.

[polichick]

88. Ya mean the evidence that was shown to the public - or the evidence...

that has never been shown?

[jberryhill]

87. The Surgeon General Has Determined...

...smoking is hazardous to your health.

Or that's what they want you to think.

[wildbilln864]

89. trust is valuable....

it should not be given away. It should be earned! IMHOOC.

[Bandit]

93. WMD are near Tikrit and east, west, north and south

We know for a fact they are there.......No secrets being kept at all....

[Wounded Bear]

5. That's part of the problem TBS...

The government keeps a LOT of secrets, many of which are necessary for security, many of which are just done to protect people in office and long standing agencies.

Unfortunately, that kind of spills over onto the CTers turf, and the above 'logic' makes sense to some.

[MineralMan]

6. And that is why the Creative Speculation Group on DU exists.

That is the place for people who believe such unproven stuff, based on no actual evidence, to discuss it.

[Wounded Bear]

7. Fine by me...

There's been a bit of an exception lately given the date, but Skinner probably should have made it official, like they did for the gun debate, although that unbanning lasted far too long IMHO.

[MineralMan]

9. The GD SOP has not changed.

GD Hosts are leaving JFK stuff because of the anniversary. They can do that. I'm suggesting that such threads be started in Creative Speculation, since the anniversary has passed. There are some there now.

[polichick]

22. So you want to stifle discussion about things that bother you.

[MineralMan]

25. How does that follow. DU isn't my site. I didn't design it, nor do

I have any role in how it operates. I cannot stifle anything. I can only comment. Today, I am commenting on conspiracy theories in general. This is General Discussion, and that's the topic I chose to discuss this afternoon. So, I posted a thread starter on the subject. How on Earth can that be seen as attempting to "stifle" anything? The designers and administrators of this site designed it with a particular place for conspiracy discussions. Take it up with them, if that troubles you. I can't tell anyone here what to do.

[polichick]

28. You posted: "And that is why the Creative Speculation Group on DU exists"...

suggesting that JFK conspiracy theory posts don't belong in General Discussion.

Sees like an attempt to stifle - since far more people read GD.

[MineralMan]

31. Does that group not exist?

Is there not a statement in the GD SOP that bluntly says, no conspiracy theories? I believe that is how the site is designed. Since I cannot insist on anything here, I cannot stifle anything. Please proceed.

[polichick]

34. Since 60% of Americans don't buy the official story...

It's not exactly a far-fetched conspiracy situation. Free speech is a good thing, right? And we wouldn't want to sideline something so many people are interested in, right?

[MineralMan]

37. Poll results are not evidence of much of anything.

80% of Americans believe that deities exist. Belief is not evidence of anything but belief.

Sorry, but poll results are not that useful when it comes to the truth or falsity of an argument.

[polichick]

43. It's an indication of interest - which is why it belongs in GD.

[MineralMan]

47. That's not up to me. It's not my website.

Sorry, but I can't help with that.

[polichick]

51. Since the posts have been allowed to stay in GD, I guess the ptb are cool with it.

[MineralMan]

53. For now, due to the anniversary.

That will probably change shortly, if history is any guide.

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

30. I'm with you...

...brother! How about a drink?

[polichick]

10. There's also a lot of corruption - favors to corporations that hurt people...

You have to really be sleepy to believe whatever the gov't puts out.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. Or, one can simply click "hide thread."

[MineralMan]

13. That's not one of the DU tools I use. That and Ignore.

My choice, eh? DU rules and DU tools are the choice of the administrators of the site. They make them, and I choose what to do with them and whether they make sense to me. If I don't like the rules, I find another place to discuss things, or start my own site with my own rules. I'm not going to do either thing.

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. I would do that, instead of getting upset about allowing JFK threads on the 50th

anniversary of JFK's death. I'll never understand why people get so twisted up angry about it. Try hide thread. It helps. I've been hiding all threads that talk about 2016 while 2014 looms. It's been great for my blood pressure.

[polichick]

17. Yes - God forbid they catch a glimpse of something that upsets their comfortable view of things!

[stopbush]

36. The comfortable view of the JFK murder is that it was a conspiracy.

The not-comfortable view is that Oswald acted alone.

Think about it.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

59. In a way, you're right. The people who accept the gov't's story seem awfully uncomfortable about it.

If they were comfortable with it they'd sit back and let the 'conspiracy nuts' yammer on to their hearts content and not try to shut down discussion.

[stopbush]

81. And in a way, you're right. The people who believe the evidence in the case

which was presented via a number of government investigations (5 investigations, to be exact) are very uncomfortable with the fact that the belief in a CT in the JFK case has seriously eroded the public's faith and trust in government. The loss of faith has been reinforced by the RW since Reagan was in office. That has kept government from doing all it can for the people.

Those of us who see the WCR as presenting the facts in the case come to that belief because we are fact-oriented in our world view. So it saddens us when people end up distrusting their government based on the non-factual fantasies of the CT crowd. It's as if the people had lost faith in their government because they were being convinced by some CT monger that Santa Claus really existed, while the government averred that he was a harmless myth.

[MineralMan]

19. But, you see, I'm not angry about anything. So, why would I hide any thread?

I don't really care if they're posted or not. Mostly, I don't bother reading them, because they never reveal anything new. I just visit this site and post in it sometimes. It's not my site, so I do what I please on it and think everyone should do the same. Today, it pleased me to post about conspiracy theories in general. If that displeases you, you're welcome to use the tools to trash the thread, as you suggest that I do. I'll continue to use DU as I please, as well.

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. It seems as if you are upset enough to post about it.

The JFK story still interests a broad range of people, across both those who think Oswald acted alone and those who don't. That is where it differs from many conspiracy theories. If one is not upset about something, one typically moves on.

[MineralMan]

26. Upset? No. Interested in Conspiracy Theories? Yes.

I'm not interested in any particular one. I find the phenomenon interesting, though. So, since one in particular seems to be a current topic, I wrote a thread-starter that discussed CTs in general.

I needn't be upset about something to start a thread on a subject. In fact, I'm not upset about anything in particular today. Give me some time though, and I'm sure something will upset me.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. Then, since you find it interesting, GD is a great place for it,

on this the 50th anniversary. I have found the discussions to be really interesting, even though I believe Oswald acted alone. It's been a wonderful respite from the things we typically debate.

[MineralMan]

33. JFK conspiracy theories were not the subject of my post.

Conspiracy theories in general were the subject of my post. The recent discussions of the JFK assassination on the 50th anniversary of it got me thinking about conspiracy theories. Please reread my OP. It's not about the JFK assassination theories. It's about conspiracy theories in general.

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. "That's why conspiracy theories belong in that group, and not in GD, in my opinion."

Not today. Not for JFK.

[NaturalHigh]

38. "The government is keeping secrets and won't give us the truth."

Well, I actually think that's pretty close to gospel fact. Of course, that doesn't mean that I buy into most conspiracy theories.

[Nye Bevan]

41. Damn. They got to you, too (nt)

[MineralMan]

42. LOL!

It's a freaking conspiracy, I guess...

[cascadiance]

44. And therefore, if you have a government that increasingly hides everything, then EVERYTHING...

... must be a conspiracy theory, and we can relegate ANY discussion of what is being done in to a separate controlled conversation that most people don't have to bother with so that they can just worship those that just want to talk about the information that the government wants to give us (aka propaganda in that circumstance). Sounds like East Germany to me! NO THANK YOU!!!

I think if you try to help codify some sense of responsibility to discussion participants to back up their assertions with provable facts, or other supportable evidence, or at least acknowledge where some theories are based on speculation, then it perhaps helps us look for that evidence and those truths, even if we don't have it yet. Now if someone is constantly trolling threads with unproven or unsupportable theories, then there should probably be a healthy way to say that one should provide supportable details or limit what one says here just to throw out your "speculations" and depict them as such.

[MineralMan]

46. Yah...I'm not sure your logic follows there...nt

[cascadiance]

55. Well, if you have many denying that the NSA gathers everything, and then later it is shown...

... that they are, BECAUSE people are allowed to talk about "conspiracy theories" until someone gets some truth out that backs up some assertions, then a democratic system works that allows for people to keep those that lead it accountable.

But if you had someone at the top saying "we don't gather information on anyone" and those that had different theories that become supported by facts aren't allowed to question the PTB's statements in more public venues, then you confine "free speech" away from the masses, which is what our media has been successfully doing so much over the last decade with those that are conditioned just to look for stories on Lindsay Lohan instead of meaningful discussions on what might be real serious problems.

Otherwise things like Michael Hastings death would not be discussed at all. There still aren't proven facts to support what some have theories on around that incident, but I don't think it is healthy to cut off or confine discussion there either. We may never know the truth, but a healthy discussion may at some point help bring it forth too. Same with JFK's assassination.

[Aerows]

48. I know the other five

What the CT with TWA Flight 800?

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. That it was accidentally shot down during a Navy training exercise by accident.

[Aerows]

52. Oh, wow

Okay. That sounds like something no one would ever notice or report on if it actually happened. LOL.

[MineralMan]

50. You can Google it. It's another CT thing.

This thread is about CTs in general, not specific ones. Or visit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800_alternative_theories

[Aerows]

54. Thanks for the link

I personally think:

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. I personally believe Oswald acted alone. But a lot of mainsteam and very sensible people don't see

it that way. . There is no other conspiracy theory that has a solid majority of Americans believing it along with several senior government officials of that era including Robert Kennedy and probably LBJ who did in fact believe there was a conspiracy. I personally think they were wrong. But this conspiracy theory is not even remotely comparable to 9/11 truthers or UFO's or Area 51 or people who think the moon landing was filmed in a studio. The fact is you and I and those who do accept the Warren Commission conclusion are in the minority and those who believe there was a conspiracy are in the overwhelming majority. Even among academics, government officials and journalist belief in a conspiracy surrounding the JFK assassination is completely mainstream.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. +1

[Aerows]

58. The CTs are fun

[MannyGoldstein]

60. Another good argument for government transparency

It won't stop all conspiricy theories, but it would help a lot.

[kickysnana]

61. You cannot fix problems you do not admit you have.

The US government has credibility problems it brought on its self. It would be helpful if news here like in Canada had to be factual and opinion had to be labeled as opinion but that would be my world not the one we have to live in which you seem to think is fine. I would also require that all national security decisions even made in war would be released in 20 years so we could know what those decisions did and we can decide whether to make them again.

As the former head of the Minneapolis FBI, a Lion with my Dad said. "Things were a lot better when not everything was politics."

Oh and if Isreal attacks Iran cut those m--fs off. I am sick to death what has happened where the people, grandchildren of the Holocaust, formed a non-democratic society have become the victimizers and we are supposed to not just let it go but support it mostly with our tax dollars. It just does not work that way in any religion, in any civilized, sane society or country.

[truebluegreen]

78. +100

[RobertEarl]

62. You are not being logical

Lumping together disagreements about historical occurrences and calling all those you do not personally hold in your mind as something that is worthy of discussion and therefore should be relegated to a dungeon, is not logical thinking.

Were such thinking logical, any mention of Fox news - definite conspirators - would be dungeoned.

Discussions of 'safe nuclear power' which the government tells you is possible, would be likewise carved out and dungeoned.

Logically, discussions about historical matters where there is disagreement, and where new evidence can be presented, should be celebrated and encouraged. Not made fun of and discouraged.

[Major Hogwash]

63. What does he think about JFK's assassination?

I can't find a single comment he made about it.

[RobertEarl]

64. IDK, OC

But I have learned many things about the assassination and the players in government at that time, over the last week.

It has been quite an education. To think that education would be relegated to a dungeon because it makes some queasy, is not logical.

And let me add, it is well known winners write history. It is not logical to presume that winners should remain unquestioned.

[questionseverything]

67. this link was an eye opener

http://www.reclaiminghistory.org/

[treestar]

65. The government did release some stuff at one point

Was there anything earth shattering in them?

What's their purpose in keeping others secret still? Maybe investigation of people who weren't charged, so it would be prejudicial to them for evidence to come out about them and have other harassing them about it.

[colsohlibgal]

68. Completely Disagree

The TWA 800 "Conspiracy Theory" is almost a slam dunk. Multiple non affiliated witnesses with no agenda saw something launch toward the airplane. Many who were sticking up for the original story have backed off.

There are serious questions still about not only the JFK hit but RFK and MLK as well. With JFK, I question how hard any of the casual debunker types have looked into any of it, it's like they've read Posner and/or Bugliosi and leave it there. I'd suggest they dig a bit further than that.

What I wonder is why there is such an obvious effort by so many here to try to disparage people who question things that don't seem quite right. Do we want to be like the old Soviet Union, or China now and just accept at face value what we're being told by the state? It would seem some do.

[GoneFishin]

76. Yep. The desperate efforts to shut up anybody who points out discrepancies in the "official"

story is the catalyst for escalation of impolite banter in my opinion.

Ok, admit that there are some points of disagreement, some facts in dispute, some information yet to be uncovered. And agree to disagree.

But often the opening remark is akin to "There are no facts in dispute. So shut up."

That approach seems to be designed to shut down discussions, not reach the truth.

[Kaleva]

84. One would think that after 50 years of investigation, solid evidence would have been found...

supporting the claim that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK and which would lead to indictments and convictions (assuming the people are still alive). Heck, CTers can't even agree amongst themselves as to who may have been involved.

But as the OP has pointed out, the standard excuse given for this 50 year failure to come up with anything substantive is to blame it on the government's seemingly incredible ability to cover up the crime of the century so well and for so long.

[GoneFishin]

92. They haven't done a good job of covering it up. But only half of us noticed. n/t

[hack89]

95. Yet none the wreckage supports a warhead impact and explosion

furthermore, when you read the actual accounts, it is clear they did not see a missile. Missile rockets burnout very quickly - the missile is coasting for much of the flight, especially shoulder launched missiles. There would be no streak of light to see. On the other hand, no one reported the large plume of smoke at the surface of the water that such a missile would produce.

I launched a lot of missiles in my Navy career - at altitude and close to the target they are invisible to the naked eye.

[CrawlingChaos]

69. When you see a flagrant cover-up, you may reasonably assume you're being lied to

Your government has a long history of disinformation campaigns - that's a stone cold fact. Are you trying to say that ignorance is bliss?

[Coyotl]

70. By definition, it cannot be a conspiracy theory without conspirators.

And if it is just a theory, by definition we cannot know the conspirators.

It is all just by definition. In the real world, what we do have is Kennedy was killed by assassination, then Bobby too. That much is not theory.

[BootinUp]

72. I don't disagree. But one thing I am also realizing

is that people may be using these events to attack government secrecy in general, in other words their primary motive might not be to get the truth about a particular event, but just to force the government to expose information or change policies on secrecy. I admit sometimes I am a little slow on these sort of things. I am generally more interested understanding the actual events. What I suggest probably also explains why people can go on and on for years or decades even after there is plenty of evidence to answer all the most relevant questions.

[Whisp]

73. Manufacturers Claim Asbestos is Perfectly Safe.

that was a conspiracy theory, among very many others that have proven themselves to be true over the years.

to mock the idea that a group of people can conspire illegally against us, is well, stupid and teabag like. We know that happens all the time, is happening right now in some way and always has throughout history. The general theory that there are people out there conspiring to fuck with us all is not a fairy tale.

to discount them all the bin of insanity and tin foil is foolish, to say the least.

and to add: yeh, us earthlings are the only intelligence of it's sort in all known universes, because we know what is in all known universes cuz we so smartz.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. Of course our government is obsessed with secrecy and likes to lock files for decades and say

'eyes only' and all of that crap which creates a reasonable distrust that exists in many cases to spare embarrassment or punishment to specific figures. The people to blame for the Speculation Industry in the US are the people in government who keep too many secrets and allow a pockmarked and suspect narrative to replace what should be collective memory and shared history. It takes a fool to disagree with the statement 'the government is keeping secrets' because they are in the business of secrets, build secret facilities to hold secret processes paid for by the very people they treat as threats to their covert and unknown actions.

[Blue_In_AK]

75. My philosophy is "Question everything,"

and most especially "Question authority."

[woo me with science]

79. +1 And that, of course, is how governments SHOULD be treated.

This OP attempts the same sort of sophistry that was used in the NSA threads: trying to suggest that the government deserves a presumption of innocence and that anyone talking without proof should be consigned to a "conspiracy theory" forum.

What utter authoritarian bullshit.

The government is not a human being on trial. It is a system meant to represent and work for us, that wields immense power and control over human lives, and that is, as history amply shows us, ripe for abuse of those powers by those who gain access.

The *default* position for citizens with regard to government should be constant skepticism, vigilance, and demands for transparency.

[sendero]

77. You conveniently left out..

.. the legions of "conspiracy theories" that turned out to be indisputably true.

When several coincidences line up, it's not a coincidence. Simple as that.

[joeunderdog]

94. Like the myths of WMDs in Iraq...or was that just a little mistake?

Or what about those paranoid nut jobs who thought the US government was spying on them like the KGB? How dare them question the Word of the Benevolent Goverment?

Nope. Nothing to see here so don't ask any hard questions. We'll take care of everything. Trust us...

[KT2000]

80. things are not always what they seem

which is the basis for many discussions on this board.
That JFK, RFK and MLK were all killed within a few years of each other ought to raise some suspicions of possible "organization" of some sort. There were also assassinations (FBI) of Black Panthers back then too.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

85. Or to put it yet another way:

"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

[pacalo]

86. DU was founded on the widely popular *belief* that GWB stole the 2000 election.

Detractors -- from the right-wing side -- would call that notion a "conspiracy theory".

Instead of writing an OP about keeping conversation about the assassination of one of the most beloved presidents in our lifetime under lock & key with all other "conspiracies", you should try out the "trash this thread" function. Your OP is one example of why the administrators created the option.

[laundry_queen]

90. +1 nt

[grahamhgreen]

91. Iraq has WMD. That was a conspiracy, not a theory, right?