My wife thoughts on the whole Rape culture and porn debates she has seen on DU

[diabeticman]

This is a rant I heard her "give" when talking to a friend of hers so some is paraphrased but the ideas are there.


Let me also say that she was raped as a teenager. She often has told me Rape isn't really about the sexual aspects but the idea of power and control of a person.


She explained/ranted:


Two consensual people role playing during sex doesn't need to be regulated we have a larger problem in this country. This country has a power hungry culture and a disrespecting culture and we have to stop looking at it as individual issues and looked at it for the large problem we have.

We have this idea in this culture that we are always right and no one deserves to be in control like "we" do. I don't mean everyone in this country but there is a large majority in this country who needs to control something in some way shape or form- be it a legislator holding up a bill because he doesn't like the president or the majority in charge or owner of a business treating her workers poorly because she like to see people suffering or a man abusing a woman sexually physically or mentally even a woman abusing a child in the above ways.

Until we can start admitting we have this power need we will never be able to truly progress to a better culture.

More and more we are seeing all aspects of power going to people's head. Like the cop who is using force for a traffic stop or christian fundamentalists trying to force their religious belief on others.

And until we learn to curve this need we will see ourselves digress further into this nightmare. We need to stop dividing the bigger issue into smaller chunks and giving them names. Culture of rape culture of race-hatred. We need to start teaching that it is NOT okay to disrespect and control ANYONE even if you have the money, authority, or ability to do so. We need to start seeing one another as being equal to ourselves AND perhaps we need to start looking at each other as the mirror of ourselves.

--------------------------
I hope no one is offended by my wife's words I felt the need to share them.

[Scuba]

1. Your wife sounds like a very smart woman.

[Triana]

2. Your wife is indeed very smart.

Thanks for sharing her thoughts here!

[TBF]

3. This is excellent -

and I would go further to posit that capitalism only encourages greed and control.

Socialism now.

[Voice for Peace]

4. something I learned when my children were small

from a parenting-encouragement class: there is an
innate need for power, to feel powerful. We are
born with it.

When children are disempowered, they do not lose
this need,; it just goes underground, they find other
ways to feel powerful, usually at the expense of
others. They discover they get attention by doing
damage. Even with punishment, they feel power.

This continues into adulthood.

Consensual sex play is
most often therapeutic and I agree with your wife, there
are more important things to regulate. Like the power
hungry megalomaniacs who are oppressing and poisoning
our world.

[lillypaddle]

5. Your wife is right on

[Grey]

6. She is a really smart woman...

[ColumbusLib]

7. Love this!

In total agreement. Would take it even a step farther: "Culture of rape culture of race-hatred. We need to start teaching that it is NOT okay to disrespect and control ANYONE especially if you have the money, authority, or ability to do so. " (My one-word edit in bold)

[seabeyond]

8. rape is all about power and control. the same as your wife's post. interesting. but,

not sure what to make of it.

[LadyHawkAZ]

9. Your wife needs to post more. n/t

[daleanime]

10. K&R....

[TroglodyteScholar]

11. So she is an advocate of RAPE PORN then?

Is she okay with humans torturing one another?

(If someone hasn't attacked her words along these lines yet, believe me...it's coming.)

[diabeticman]

14. and you are missing her point. Two CONSENTING ADULTS engaged in role play is not the same

as someone inflicting pain by torturing a person so that the person doing the torture can feel he/she is in power and control of someone else is TWO different things.


My wife has friends who are into BDSM and understands the pleasure they receive from the role play and her friends know of her rape and believe me these people are not "demented freaks" they get outrage and angry when they hear of someone being raped and harmed physically. To lump two different group of people into the same "pool" is not right.

[seabeyond]

17. and bdsm has nothing to do with rape. they have power and control. rape the rapist has the power

and control.

[Scootaloo]

32. And so are you (warning, likely triggers ahead)

You're right. What two consenting people do with themselves is their business. If a couple get off on rape fantasy with each other, I think that's weird, but, whatever, it's their business.

That's not the issue at hand. We're not talking about a couple's kinks. We're talking about a genre of film. Allow me to give you an example. First I go to the free porn site "motherless" and put "raped" into the search box.

Ah here we go, an eighteen-minute video from a site named "rapesection." On motherless, it's titled "Russian teen pool violation." Oh, my testicles are all a-quiver!

We open with the aforementioned teen, in the aforementioned pool, apparently in her basement or something. A few minutes of this and she gets out to shower off. There's a loud bang, and she looks momentarily concerned, and steps out of the shower to check her surroundings. A young man sneaks down the stairs towards her, grabs her by the hair. While she screams, he yanks her head around, slamming her into the wall a few times. Then he drags her over to the pool, and forces her head into the water. He cokes her, yanks her around more, forces her face back into the water. Then, he forces her cheeks between her teeth with his thumb, and pushes his penis into her mouth while she struggles and fights against him. She doesn't comply, so he hits her, and tries again. More hitting until he finally gets it in there, then thrusts until she chokes. Then he twists her head hard to the side, and delivers a karate chop to her neck while she continues to struggle. Then he twists her arm around between her shoulders. There's some more jaw-wrenching and hitting involved in this guy trying to put his pecker in her mouth. She breaks away from him, running into the shower room, and he follows, knocking the door in. He punches her in the head, making it collide with the tiled wall behind her, then grabs her and drags her out, hitting her on the back as he does, before tossing her into the pool. More hair-yanking, hitting, and jaw-wrenching follows as he again tries to force oral from her. Then he throws her onto the floor, and slaps her repeatedly, before spreading her legs and penetrating her while she screams and fights him. More slapping and head-banging and choking occurs. She hits him in the chest, he responds by delivering a punch to the head. And then, everyone's favorite, anal with pool water as lube while she struggles. This involves slamming her head into a table a few times. He finishes up by ejaculating on her face and throwing her into the pool.

Are they actors? Well, one hopes so - they're Russian, and I dunno what sort of shit goes on over there. The scene is certainly staged, of course, and many of the hits are light stage blows... but not all (the one after she hits him in the chest, in particular, he really knocks the shit out of her). Whatever degree of consent exists in the Russian pornography industry isn't the point (though I suspect it is certainly a point worth discussion.)

The point is that this eighteen minutes of simulated rape is being sold to you and me and whoever else might watch it, as entertainment. It's supposed to be sexy, it's supposed to turn you on. it didn't do it for me, because a woman screaming and struggling as a water-lubed cock is thrust into her anus is sort of the opposite of a turn-on for me, even if I can convince myself she's just acting (and under that condition, I imagine MOST people would be very vocal and physical about their displeasure with that.)

It's not an issue of two people doing something that gets their kink going. It's about an industry selling rape as a form of positive sexuality for the entertainment of mass consumers.

[seabeyond]

37. but... this would not be violent. we have redefined what violent is for porn. nt

[smirkymonkey]

51. Ok - anyone who gets off on that shit is pretty messed up. That's just sick.

[TroglodyteScholar]

47. I'm not missing the point

I was warning that you will encounter other people here who are looking for a fight, and will willfully miss the point in order to get one.

I think your lady is about as right add right can be.

[diabeticman]

48. I do apologize. It amazes me how some people are just grasping at one point of my wife's rant

and not the whole picture.

[TroglodyteScholar]

54. Exactly

And no apology necessary...I'm confidant that a fair share of these people are abuse victims themselves, so it's kind of understandable when they can't see it from an outside perspective. Just noting that there are some people who won't be reasoned with....

[kcr]

12. Who's advocating for regulating adults having consensual sex?

I'd be ranting against that too, if i saw that.

[diabeticman]

16. There have been different discussions on DU about trying to criminalize "rape porn" not to mention

George Zimmerman,

Cops using excessive force

the various threads she has seen while surfing DU.

[kcr]

18. I know.

I read those. I was talking about people wanting to regulate consensual sex. That would explain the OP's wife's ranting. I would, too, if i saw that.

[LadyHawkAZ]

36. Exhibit A, from another thread this morning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024096085#post41

I really don't mind saying I think porn should be illegal.

You are correct about doing a search for porn. It is clear what type of porn is driving the industry. I trust that they know their customers, and the images and words they display on their home-pages shows a clear direction towards pain and violence.

I think that all porn or sex trade business, where some form of trade is made for work that requires any type of penetration, should be outlawed. I also think the laws of a state should govern the actions of fetish porn.

[kcr]

38. So, you can point to one person that wants to ban porn in general.

What does that have to do with the discussion about rape porn?

[LadyHawkAZ]

39. "Who's advocating for regulating adults having consensual sex?"

Perhaps I misunderstood your question? Please clarify.

[kcr]

42. I think it was pretty straightforward.

I mean, I guess if one chooses to take things literally and ignore the context of the discussion, you can technically say, ", Well, here! Someone is for banning all porn! See, got ya! Ha ha!" But that doesn't change the fact that almost no one was talking about regulating consensual adults. They were talking about rape porn.

[LadyHawkAZ]

45. Well, we are advancing. It's now "almost" no one.

Although I note that you are not yet ranting.

I thought it was pretty straightforward too. Which is why I responded with a post from someone advocating regulation of adults having consensual sex.

Since you now want to narrow it down to rape porn, here's an OP advocating against consensual simulation:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024079616
another:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698

I'm pretty much in the JEEZUS CHRIST! HOW THE HELL DOES SOMEONE FIND THIS EXCITING??? camp, but with that said, I'm also aware that one person's "rape porn" and another's consensual BDSM are going to have a wide area of crossover- in spite of the fact that it's been repeatedly argued that "no one is talking about BDSM", you can see in this thread that some do consider anything involving pain or hitting/spanking of any kind to be "violent porn" (and/or abuse) and this OP equates all anal play and object insertion with rape. So without a solid definition, there's a huge gray area there.

Long story short, yes there are people advocating for regulating consenting adult behavior in all the recent porn threads. Commence the rant.

[kcr]

46. Well thanks for noting that.

Since I now want to narrow it down to rape porn? That wasn't my preference. It was already there. That's what was being discussed in this thread. But that might explain why you responded the way you did. But, at least you're noting my lack of ranting anyway. That's something.

And, maybe I'm missing something. But I read both links. And neither of them advocate for regulating consenting adult behavior.

[LadyHawkAZ]

49. *sigh* OK, lessee what we got here:

We can start with the one I already posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024096085#post41

I really don't mind saying I think porn should be illegal.

You are correct about doing a search for porn. It is clear what type of porn is driving the industry. I trust that they know their customers, and the images and words they display on their home-pages shows a clear direction towards pain and violence.

I think that all porn or sex trade business, where some form of trade is made for work that requires any type of penetration, should be outlawed. I also think the laws of a state should govern the actions of fetish porn.

This is an open, no-bullshit call for a ban on consenting adult behavior.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698#op
In the recent long thread in DU about rape porn I was disillusioned to conclude that a whole lot of DU members somehow think it is the liberal position to safeguard the rights of people for whom watching women being tortured is a turn on.

I personally associate such hatred of women to be a republican problem. But now I am unsure entirely.

Why would it be a liberal position to defend torture of women for sexual gratification?

I have no idea what people mean when they say it is only simulated, so it does not count. Or it is between consenting adults....who consents to being tortured?

This is a call for a ban on consenting adult behavior, i.e. BDSM, and by someone who admitted to having no actual clue about the subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698#post17
Rape is my business

Believe it or not, women are human beings with rights too.
Yes, there is gay porn--directed at male audiences. The vast majority of the porn is heterosexual. Pretending there is anything close to gender parity is a willful distortion.
That you think it is only about your business suggests women who are the objects of porn have no rights, that the women who are then raped as a result of the prevalence of that porn--as countless studies have shown--have no rights. Our rights to be free from violence matters to us, even if you do not care who is enslaved, beaten or killed to satisfy the rape fantasists desires.

The subthread was about BDSM fetishes, NOT rape porn. The author's equating the BDSM fetish with rape, abuse and murder- all of which are illegal and also illegal to film or distribute- also makes it a de facto call for a ban on consenting adult behavior. There are many, many posts in a similar vein. This is what I mean by a huge gray area, where one person's consensual fetish is another person's "rape porn".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698#post382
Because people don't truly understand what porn is all about.

They hide behind the phony civil liberties that thinks that exploitation of others is okay. They don't even know what "consent" entails.

Financial pressures to work in porn (or prostitution, for that matter) is NOT "consent."

Completely redefining consensual acts with non-consensual and illegal ones (sex - consent = rape, illegal to perform, film or distribute, otherwise known as a "ban&quot and inventing whole new definitions of consent to do so.

~

Is that enough, or do you want me to reproduce whole swaths of two very long threads? Yes, people are calling for bans on consensual adult behavior; this is not new to DU and happens every time one of these sex or sexuality issues come up. There really are people out there, and in here, who really do think they ought to be able to set the legal and moral standards of acceptability in sexual expression, at least where women's vaginas are concerned.

I completely support not only bans but prosecutions on possession and distribution of videos showing actual rapes: so does every single person on this board, porn supporter or not. I don't support broad-brush bans on porn or only-slightly-narrower bans on consensual fetish porn. In spite of the repeated attempts to conflate all porn or fetish porn with rape, they are not the same thing.

How about you?

[MadrasT]

13. There are good points made but where did anyone say

consensual role playing during sex should be regulated?

Rant is based on a strawman.

[diabeticman]

19. Part of this has to do with UK wanting to criminalize "Rape Porn" and not just that thread but all

other threads involving George Zimmerman and police out of control.

She was lumping a lot of things together just all fustrating her and she kind of let it out in a massive rant but all of it goes back to what she is saying. different aspects of wanting to have power over people

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. So she's saying "people should be free to make fake rape videos, but they should choose not to"?

That's what I'm taking away from her message - that making porn videos apparently showing rape is OK as long as it wasn't really rape, and it should be legal to give and/or sell them to people who can't tell if it really was rape, because it should be legal to encourage people to get turned on by rape - but that anyone doing this is part of the cultural problem of control, and they ought to know better.

[diabeticman]

20. What she is saying that people need to be EDUCATED more and and considering we have people

in the world who believe the plot of FRAGO was base on a real story is unfortunate.

http://business.highbeam.com/410578/article-1G1-83313093/japanese-woman-dies-hunting-fargo-treasure-us

Does that mean ALL Coen Brothers films should be consider dangerous and now be criminalized for being owned? If so my wife has several films.

What about some of these "REALITY TV" Shows that have to be scripted i.e. The Real Housewives Temptation island.

This is about US as citizens of this country and world wanting to get to the heat of a lot of these problems which are trying to control and have power over others.


Most people who buy these "Rape Porn" movies know they are fantasies and fake. YES you have some who believe it is real. BUT just because some can't tell the difference between fake and reality doesn't mean EVERYONE in the world can't tell the difference.

[seabeyond]

21. not to mention the rape porn that is real that people are getting off on, but hey, lets not even

count those. silly us. universal problem with rape of our women, girls and boys. what are we going on about

[diabeticman]

22. I don't know where "Rape Porn" is real? You are talking about TWO different subjects. People

who record there TRUE violence against another person or persons THAT is evidence!


The stuff that is produce by consenting adults is Porn. We are friends with a marriage couple who have viewed such films together.


A lot of married couples watch various different type of "pornographic" movies together.


Problem is some people view 2 different items as being the same!

[gollygee]

23. The people speaking out about rape porn

have been speaking out about RAPE porn. Not consensual sex between two people.

Who is looking for videos of actual rapes - *non consensual!* - and getting off on that? People keep talking about BDSM but we're talking about RAPE porn. People are saying it's wrong for the UK to ban RAPE porn. Porn that is at least calling itself actual real rape - that's apparently a selling point, that it is actual documentation of an actual rape.

[diabeticman]

24. THan this is a WHOLE category of porn unknown to us or my wife's friends. Because some of the

"porn" are friends have seen are where women are bound sex is preformed in little skits.


This must be a completely different under section that they have never seen.

I've only seen 2 porn movies myself.



Those sound very disturbing.

[gollygee]

25. People are throwing out this strawman

that we're talking about BDSM or consensual sexual partners or the privacy of people's bedrooms or whatever, but I don't even know why they keep saying that. The problem is rape porn, which hopefully is not a common category of porn. Not BDSM fantasies, but pornography whose packaging says that it is documentation of actual rapes.

[diabeticman]

27. My wife is wondering if people are seeing BDSM pictures and movies and are equating them to

something non-consensual?


My wife's friends are into "the scene" as they call it. That they are switchers sometimes she is "on top" other times he's on top.


He enjoys getting whipped while she like getting tied up.


They will act out one another's fantasy and have recorded their play. would that make them criminals in the UK

How many DUers would find her friends crazy people who should be lock in some sort of mental place?

They refer to my wife and I the Vanilla couple.

[gollygee]

28. No, we're talking about rape porn

The UK has passed a law that movies that are of actual rapes or show what they claim to be actual rapes can be prosecuted. Not BSDM. Just rape. Everyone keeps talking about BDSM like that's what it's about, so I can see why your wife thought that. I have no idea why people are so eager to defend rape porn around here.

[diabeticman]

30. maybe because some parts of SMBD involve "rape fantasies". in the middle of the role play

if someone where to see it would they know it was play or real?

[gollygee]

31. If it says "Contains real rape scenes" on the packaging

that might make them believe it's real. That seems to be the idea - to find real rape in videos.

And then we're surprised when people in high schools and colleges think it's fine videotape themselves and their friends raping girls. Where are they getting the idea that it's fine? Why doesn't it occur to them that they're filming an illegal act?

[diabeticman]

33. Oh! My wife will double check with her but she doubts they have ever encountered that.

as for them not knowing why they are filming an illegal act all I can say it goes back to the power thing my wife was ranting about.


I think she is also defensive because let's face it some people would consider her best friend --who is like her sister and actually treats her better than her sister.--some sort of nut. The girl actually has a successful business. Plays her workers a living wage and even give benefits to part time workers.

[KitSileya]

40. In 2007, two 8-year olds and a 9-year old was accused of raping a girl.

That 8 and 9-year olds even know what rape is, is pretty disturbing. I don't know the outcome of the case, so no way of knowing whether it was in fact rape - the girl claimed one of the boys threatened to hit her in the head with a rock. However, the father of one of the boys claimed the girl only said that because she regretted it afterwards, so if anything, we certainly know that one of the boys is learning horribly misogynistic things at home.

[historylovr]

44. Well said, gollygee.

Reading these threads there's a deliberate, and dishonest, conflation of BDSM and rape in order to defend rape porn. And it's really disturbing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. The point of the videos is that the intended viewer thinks that it is real

This isn't about something like a normal commercial film (eg Coen Brothers or reality TV), and it's not about normal porn (and a major selling point for porn is "they really are having sex, it's not an act&quot ; it's about making porn (ie its main purpose is to turn them on) that a typical person would think is a real rape, like a typical person thinks porn actors are actually having sex.

"Most people who buy these "Rape Porn" movies know they are fantasies and fake" - well, I can't say I've ever come across anyone who does buy them, as far as I know. People are standing up for the freedom of others to get turned on by rape, but I don't think anyone on DU has admitted to it so far.

[diabeticman]

29. what is normal porn? Some people find it unacceptable to see two girls doing sexual acts

so what do you define as acceptable and unacceptable.


What about my wife's friends? The woman enjoys getting tied up and watching videos of women getting tied up. The couple has engaged in "rape fantasies".

Have you ever read a Masters and Johnson report? Had to do a report for a college psychology class and did it blow my mind.

Stuff my wife and I have never done but those friends have.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. Rape porn is something that looks like a violent crime

Watching a woman being tied up wouldn't be that; watching one being tied up while apparently being frightened for her life, or screaming "no, don't do it", or having been drugged - in a way that looks like it's real, and not pretend - would be.

I'd hope your wife's friends wouldn't want to watch a video of someone apparently being raped. People may stand up for their right to do so, but it's like standing up for someone else's right to be a Nazi. It's the kind of thing you'd break up a friendship over.

[diabeticman]

35. This is something I will show my wife. I will let her answer that.

[Shankapotomus]

41. As I see it - and have outlined on DU before -,

your wife, (who is totally correct and spot on, btw) is talking mainly about American conservatives, not liberals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022450846

I don't think we should implicate liberalism as a serious partner - here and there, yes, but not a serious contributor - in this ongoing societal crime.

[truedelphi]

53. Liberalism has its blind spots.

And then there is the factor so prevalent now a days, that people who happen to be to the far, far far right of Nixon see themselves as being liberals.

[G_j]

43. Power Over, or

Power With?

In every aspect, we need to shift to the latter.

[woo me with science]

50. Please thank your wife for me.

I think she is very wise.

[IronLionZion]

52. Sounds like you married a very insightful intelligent woman

We should all be so fortunate.

I drove home in a frustrated rage thinking about how much my life sucks thanks to my feminist ex who has devoted her life to making my life miserable and came online expecting to continue my unnecessary anger in search of the usual pretentious entitled bullshit people like to post. But instead of that the first thing I read was a very thoughtful article of a poor woman explaining why she makes bad decisions and how "good decisions" are a luxury that's out of reach for her, and this post with your wife's well thought out perspective. A lot of these things really are perception vs reality, and its good to have a reminder that my life doesn't suck so bad after all. I have a lot more choices and opportunities than many folks.

I especially liked this bit "We need to start seeing one another as being equal to ourselves AND perhaps we need to start looking at each other as the mirror of ourselves." and hope to see more of that in life.

You don't have to worry so much about "I hope no one is offended by " because being offended is a choice we all can make. Just say what you want to say and each of us can attach our individual meaning to it or ignore it and move on. No matter what you do, someone somewhere will be offended, even if you do nothing.