Our Crap, Our Shame and Maybe, One Day, An American Spring

[unhappycamper]

http://www.commondreams.org/further/2013/11/29-0



Our Crap, Our Shame and Maybe, One Day, An American Spring
by Abby Zimet
11.29.13 - 11:15 AM

Ugh. Grotesque reports - of fistfights, gunshots, chaos, dispiriting WTF insanity - from today's feeding frenzy, American capitalism's crass version of good times. With small signs of pushback by labor and consumers alike, possible hope for the future and horrific supercuts of retail violence to remind us how far out there we've gone. Buy nothing, stay home, rake the leaves, read a book.

[MADem]

1. ENOUGH. This kind of imagery has the opposite effect on me.

The truth of the matter is, this was one of the LEAST contentious "Black Fridays" I have seen since the term entered the popular lexicon. No elderly people or mothers were trampled to death in the rush for the bargains, the lines were controlled, and most of the violence was down to singular assholes, who might have been assholes any other day of the week.

I don't participate in that silliness, because I am old, don't like standing on line, don't like being cold, and don't need or want "stuff" to give to a little kid to make that kid feel cool and part of the crowd with his or her peers. That said, I can understand the wish of a parent to give a child a fancy, out-of-their-price-range toy. I can understand the desire of the wage slave to have that big ass tee vee to show off to his friends and family, so they think he's a) Doing better than he actually is or b) One helluva bargain hunter.

The minute I see people being "scolded" for a voluntary activity, I have to ask people like Abby, the writer of this screed, "What would you have to wag your finger at, were everyone 'perfect' like you? And why rake leaves, or read a book? You want to show us how "superior" you are? Get your ass out to the soup kitchen and start chopping onions!"

This is not about defining "necessity." It's about indulging in luxuries that one cannot afford ordinarily.

Enough beating up on the people who want to stand on line--it's their choice. And isn't this the land of the free? Or do we all have to act like insufferable, sanctimonious, "I know better than you" assholes, about every doggone thing?

Here's how I handle Black Friday--I eschew it and I don't judge people who participate. It's easy to do. The obsession over scolding people who want a cheap toy for their kid, to my mind, is reaching the level of "poverty shaming"--sort of like "Honey Boo Boo mocking."

Those who leap, eagerly, to scold these bargain hunters and call them shallow and greedy, are REALLY saying "There but for the grace of Allah go I! If I were 'that poor' I'd have to stand in that line to get my little child that special toy, too!"

People who really want to "define necessity" while they mock the poor in front of K Mart and use gratuitous pictures of African (always African, I notice) children to illustrate their superiority should have a look at the car they are driving (could they do with a bike, instead? Or maybe--heavens to Betsy--WALK?), the house they are living in (why not turn a few rooms into shelter for the homeless, surely you don't need ALL that room?), how much cash they dropped the last time they went out for a meal (why not donate that money to charity instead?), where they went on vacation (well, was that "necessary," that ski trip, that surfing holiday?)...and stop acting like sanctimonious and insufferable jerks who are looking down their nose at their "lessers"--those poor people three paychecks from eviction-- while pretending to be owning the moral high ground.

So, I guess what I'm saying is mocking people for engaging in a voluntary activity, while holding oneself up as "better" for not engaging in that activity, is something I am OVER.

Enough, already--time to move on to the next Outrage Du Jour....

[Chico Man]

4. It's not the people

It's the mob mentality, and the psychological warfare waged by inter/national consumer goods corps. It's the boardroom decision makers planning an even bigger black Friday drop than last year, wanting more frothing at the mouth, more drama, more pushing and shoving. Any publicity is good publicity - people join in for the sheer spectacle of it all. At the end of the day, who wins?

Here is a day that cannot be ignored unless you hole yourself up in some bomb shelter. There is no black Friday free commercial zone. You need something? Forget about it. Soon we will need a website to figure out what grocery store I can go to without having to deal with the frothing mobs. Withing 10 miles of your nearest WalMart? Forget about it.

The plan is this: make Black Friday the showcase of the holiday season. The gateway arch to grand commercialism. This coffin has been nailed. The next step is to make each and every day from now until Christmas rise to the same boiling commercial intensity. It's like a giant pyramid scheme, they must have increasing sales to cover for the extreme marketing expenses and shrinking sales the remainder of the year. We all know the holiday season has been hijacked. The only way to fight back is to make the commercial holiday plan unpopular and show it for the stupidity that it really is. Spend time with family.. take more care in gift giving. Teach the kids to value what they have and to ignore the rampant commercial spin. There is nothing wrong with that. It's all we have left.

[valerief]

6. I wonder how many fights are staged for the media attention they provide. nt

[MADem]

33. MAD MEN did an episode about this (same thing, writ small).

It was a pre-computer version of "viral marketing." Two women were hired to stage a fight in a supermarket for the newspapers over a ham--the last one in the case. The resulting publicity ensured a run on the product and created enormous demand and name recognition. Peggy and Pete Campbell paid off the actors in a diner, where they proceeded to try to fight with one another again and had to be separated.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some fights are staged, OR if people see the cameras and play to them. Everyone wants their fifteen minutes, these days.

[valerief]

36. I remember that episode! nt

[MADem]

10. The way we make the "commercial holiday plan unpopular" is to pay people enough so they don't have

to debase themselves to get that My Little Pony or whatever the "Must Have" toy is for their kid. Do we see that happening soon? It would be nice, but near term? Hell no.

Funny how, where the people aren't poor, there are no lines in front of the stores:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/111644302

Let's get real--no one is celebrating the birth of the Christ Child, Peace Be Upon Him, when they are standing in that line in front of that Big Box store. They are in that line because they want a bargain for themselves or for their children, so their kids will fit in. It's either "I want a toy" or "I want my kid to have a toy." That's what this is all about. Nothing more, nothing less. It is what it is.

They market to you at Valentine's Day, too. Every kiss begins with Kay? Chocolate candy commercials? Perfume? Teddy Bears and cheesy lingerie? They do the same thing at Halloween. Costumes! SEXY costumes!!! Candy! Mother's Day? FTD? Flowers.com? Jewelry? Horrible "breakfast in bed" commercials where the inept family trashes the kitchen (because that's women's work, nyuck, nyuck, and Dad and kids are incompetent!)? Father's Day? Ugly tie commercials, after-shave, leather goods! Oh, and for you rich folks...CARS!!!!

Here's the bottom line--retailers gonna retail. It's what they DO. People who don't like it, hit the mute button on the tee vee, don't go to the store, exercise a little self-discipline.

But yelling at retailers for selling shit? That's like yelling at a cat for licking his butt! It's all on us to say yes or no, do we stay, or do we go?

[Chico Man]

20. It's cultural pollution

Just as dirty and gross as deepwater horizon.

Did we point fingers at BP? You bet we did.

[MADem]

28. Not the same. Environmental pollution affects us all, even if we do nothing.

You have the choice--assuming you can eschew the desire to buy a discount flat screen--to avoid that WalMart on Black Friday.

[Chico Man]

38. Black Friday is environmental pollution too

It pollutes the environment and it pollutes our minds. It is manifest everything that is wrong with our society.

[MADem]

40. No it isn't. It is a driver to our economy.

The only thing that sucks about it is if they start it on Thursday, and make retail employees work on a national holiday.

If your mind is "polluted" that's your fault. Turn off your TV. Don't go shopping.

No one is forcing you to participate.

[Chico Man]

47. The goods make their way here

From half way across the globe and shortly thereafter end up in a landfill.. it is unsustainable consumerism.

[MADem]

57. If you don't like, don't buy. But don't think you can shame people who

want something that you might already have, and are willing to stand in a line to get it, because otherwise, they cannot afford it.

It's poor shaming, and it's wrong.

[bvar22]

27. !CONSUME!

It is what the USA does best!

[MADem]

29. Your choice, though. If you don't want to "consume," don't. It's that simple. nt

[bvar22]

32. No. Its not that simple.

The roots are so much deeper.

Your simple solution is like telling an Alcoholic,
"Hey Man... just stop drinking...DUH!"

[MADem]

34. You have no self control? Like Miley, you "Just Can't Stop" is that it?

So you're a shop-a-holic, eh?

Please. You're not just mocking the poor for having the nerve to want what their "betters" (said with all due the term deserves) have; now you're doubling down by comparing their desire to have a few nice things --like the rich can have by clicking their mouses and having UPS deliver it to their McMansions--to substance abuse.

How much more poor shaming can you fit into this thread? Tell those poor folks how BAAAAAD they are, now! The NERVE of them to want their kids to have an X Box! Why...there oughta be a LAW!!!!

[Chico Man]

39. There is nothing pleasant

About consumerism gone mad. There is no poor shaming in calling it out for the shit it is.

[MADem]

41. Oh please. Get off that high horse before you fall off it.

You ARE poor shaming. Pointing at, and mocking, people who can't afford to sit in overheated homes, on high speed internet connections, farting through silk drawers, and clicking mouses so that "consumer goods" are delivered to them, in secret, so their "consumerism" is hidden from public view, is poor shaming.

Here's a trick, you should try it sometime. If you don't LIKE Black Friday, don't participate.

See? Your problem is solved!

Now stop telling other people how they must live their lives or spend their money! It's didactic, craven hypocrisy, and it won't work, either.

[Chico Man]

45. The only person talking about poor people

Is you.

[MADem]

46. I KNOW. Everyone else is pointing fingers at the poor people--I'm talking about them, because they

are PEOPLE first.

So like I said, get off the high horse.

[Chico Man]

48. I think we can do better

Black Friday creates poor people.

[MADem]

49. No it doesn't. Lack of economic opportunity and a depressed minimum wage creates poor people.

Shitty public schools where children aren't learning even the basics create poor people. Astronomical college tuitions that are unaffordable to working class people create poor people.

Black Friday doesn't "create" poor people. That's just asinine.

[Chico Man]

52. How many purchases are made under credit?

One side effect of a frenzied crowd of shoppers (to the delight of big-box retailers) is the tendency for consumers to make purchases beyond their means. The commercial lead up and "loss leaders" create the frenzy.

Black Friday fosters debt, debt creates poor people. It's simple commercial psychology.

[Major Hogwash]

53. Exactly! Therein lies the shame.

The "gotta have it right now" shopper's syndrome creates more bankruptcies than ever before.

We used to live "within our means", which meant that we didn't spend more than we make.
But, not anymore.

Consumer debt is at an all time high.
And each year it climbs higher and higher.

The "shop 'till you drop" meme was created by all of those rich azzholes on Madison Avenue.

[MADem]

56. And how many aren't?

Debt doesn't create poor people.

Not having a job that pays a decent wage fosters poor people. It's not psychology--it's MATH.

[Chico Man]

58. Debt pushes millions below poverty line

Four million Americans would fall below the federal poverty line if the interest they pay on their credit cards and other consumer debt were subtracted from their incomes, say two economics professors who call these people the "debt poor."

http://m.sfgate.com/business/article/Debt-pushes-millions-below-poverty-line-3227038.php

There are likely hundreds of other correlations I could site. But whatever.

[MADem]

59. So does JOBLESSNESS.

It's an irrefutable correlation.

But whatever.

[Chico Man]

61. How does joblessness relate to this conversation?

I said Black Friday leads to debt which leads to poverty. You said "but joblessness does too!"? Does that somehow disconnect the black Friday connection to a continuous cycle of poverty creation? I don't think so.

I don't really understand what you are trying to prove.

[MADem]

62. People without jobs can't pay their bills. THAT leads to debt--not "Black Friday."

It's pretty simple.

You're saying one day of shopping causes the sky to fall. I say nonsense to that.

I don't understand what YOU are trying to prove.

Look, you don't like Black Friday, stay home. Enough with the shaming of poor people, though.

Don't tell me that the computer you're typing your complaint on is made of banana leaves and sustainable this-n-that. You got that thing from China like every one else. Same deal with your TV, your kids' consoles, and all that other stupid stuff that you didn't have to stand in line to get, because you could afford to pay full price.

Just because you bought YOUR Chinese crap on an off-day doesn't make you more virtuous than the schmuck who went looking for a discount on the one day he could find one.

[Chico Man]

63. I'm not judging you

Or talking about what you have or what you don't have. You are the one talking about me! Who's doing the shaming here? You aught to reflect on what you just typed into your computer. Is that really how you want to present yourself? you have no idea who I am or where I came from. I could easily be typing this from my local library. Stop making assumptions.

Black Friday is symbolic and a single symptom of a much larger problem with our society. It effectively drives a greater divide between the haves and have nots. It preys upon the worst characteristics of human instinct.

The aftermath of this insanity IS my problem. And it is YOUR problem. It is OUR problem. Debt, pollution, road rage, consumption and poverty wage, part time employment, are just a few of the very obvious problems Black Friday helps to create and celebrate. This is the mechanism, can't you see that?

[MADem]

64. This isn't about judging ME. You ARE judging those people standing in that line for that

affordable toy, computer or television, though--you are, in effect, judging poor people and finding them "unseemly" for wanting something they might not be able to afford normally. And when you do that, you are--like it or not--"shaming" them.

22 million people went to WalMart on Black Friday. Despite attempts to focus on shopper discord and violence, there wasn't much of it. Certainly no more than any given day at the mall.

Black Friday didn't create low wages--it might be a response to them, though. Wages have sucked for decades now, and Black Friday is a relatively new phenomenon.

All that other stuff you tossed out like chaff before an enemy fighter (debt, pollution and road rage, e.g.) have absolutely nothing to do with Black Friday. That's just a bridge too far, and silly.

Those would be --and have been (in case you have not noticed) --with us with, or without, a sale after Thanksgiving.

[Chico Man]

65. The most ironic part of this all

Is that these otherwise "unaffordable" goods companies are "giving away" the day after thanksgiving is a big giant lie. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Smart shopping does not mean joining the hordes on Black Friday - it actually means opting out and taking more care and being in better control of ones personal finances.

Better wages mean nothing if half of those are going to interest payments for goods no longer owned purchased because the deal was just too good to be true on Black Friday.

Black Friday is a symbol - the head of the snake. It is a great opportunity to point out the fallacies and to teach people to avoid being herded like sheep. You advocate we just let it be... Sorry. Not going to happen. Black Friday is disgusting.

The Dirty Secret of Black Friday 'Discounts'

How Retailers Concoct 'Bargains' for the Holidays and Beyond
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304281004579217863262940166

When shoppers head out in search of Black Friday bargains this week, they won't just be going to the mall, they'll be witnessing retail theater.

Stores will be pulling out the stops on deep discounts aimed at drawing customers into stores. But retail-industry veterans acknowledge that, in many cases, those bargains will be a carefully engineered illusion.

The common assumption is that retailers stock up on goods and then mark down the ones that don't sell, taking a hit to their profits. But that isn't typically how it plays out. Instead, big retailers work backward with their suppliers to set starting prices that, after all the markdowns, will yield the profit margins they want.

[MADem]

66. You continue to judge people. Now you know better than they do what "smart shopping" is.

If they want to give their kid the same Xbox that YOUR kid has, this is probably the only way they can get it, other than breaking into your house while you're gone and stealing yours, or buying one that "fell off the truck," or getting involved in the "receiving stolen property" game.

I would not presume to lecture people for the "crime" of being not able to afford something that they want. And buying that bargain Xbox for one fourth the regular price is probably a better move than buying it for full price on a credit card (if they had one). And these companies that make this crap? They aren't losing money-they may be selling it at cost (but oh, the value of that media coverage!) or a very tiny profit, but no one is going broke, here. They aren't a charity--they'll get theirs.

Thing is, though, too, when it comes to credit, the real poor folk don't have credit cards. They're lucky to have debit cards from a bank, because many live in neighborhoods that won't put a bank on the corner in the community, because they don't want to get robbed. And try finding a bank that doesn't charge people for being poor--minimum balance, or there's a fee. Many people can't afford to maintain a minimum balance, so they skip the whole banking scene if they can't locate a credit union within a bus ride or two. Plenty of 'em have to make do with overpriced prepaid cards that they have to purchase in order to not have to carry great wads of cash around.

I just am not convinced that you understand real life. Maybe you can run down to the "underserved neighborhoods" and give some of those folks a little lecture on "personal finances" and smart shopping -- I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

Black Friday doesn't cause poverty--the crowds that are generated, though, are a symptom of it. These are regular people, many of them, who don't make enough money to give their families the things that others have as a matter of routine. There is a reason that there were no lines in front of the Best Buy in the "affluent" DC neighborhood--those people make a living wage in that community. There is no conflict amongst the wealthy between wanting and affording.

[Chico Man]

67. The best way to build wealth

Is to act poor. And the best way to stay poor is to spend money.

That's real life.

No-one is going to discount high demand products (like the x-Box you keep raving about). That's simple supply / demand economics.

Black Friday not only causes poverty, it reinforces and strengthens it.

Deal hunting is not a one day affair.

[MADem]

68. Go tell that to the mom who wants to give her kid a Playstation for Xmas.

I'm sure she'll give your admonitions all the attention her "real life" thinks they deserve. You can also lecture her on "deal hunting"--that'll go over well, too!

I switched up to Playstation, because you're whining about my use of XBox....

Again, you can repeat it all day, but BF doesn't CAUSE poverty, it doesn't reinforce it, and it doesn't strengthen it. It's a marketing ploy to create buzz and kick off the holiday shopping season, and some people will endure the crowds to find a bargain. The people doing this--who don't just get a kick from participating in a throng, and there are those folks-- want to buy products they ordinarily cannot afford, that's why they are there on that day.

What "causes" poverty is a shitty minimum wage. Plain and simple. Raise the minimum wage to even fifteen bucks an hour, and you'll see a massive reduction in poverty. Raise it further to twenty bucks an hour, and our poorest citizens would be living in what used to artfully be called "genteel" poverty.

[Chico Man]

69. Increase the minimum wage

And increase the spending.. That's a net zero.

The trick is spending less than you make. Black Friday and marketing gimmicks are going to hurt that cause. So let's help break the spend cycle.

My kids want to eat ice cream for breakfast. Sometimes I have to parent.

[MADem]

70. Why do you assume people will want to "increase the spending?"

You're creating a construct that isn't proven. For all you know, people who make more money will raise their standards of living by moving to safer neighborhoods, saving money for a rainy day and college for their kids, and spending their money on quality produce grown in the USA.

But hey, go on and assume those dumb poor folk will just increase their spending all willy nilly, because, ya know, they're poor and all....

Wanting your child to have the same frigging toys that every other kid in America has isn't "ice cream for breakfast." Saying that the poor need to wear a hair shirt and live like a Dickens character--when they can have a bit of fun if someone in their family is willing to stand in line for it--is sorta like "I got mine, but since YOU are poor, you can't have yours! Otherwise, there's not enough difference between me, a have, and you, a have-not!"

Maybe stop worrying about what those poor folks, willing to stand in that line, are up to...that's a good start. Work on lobbying Congress for an increase in the minimum wage, instead.

[Chico Man]

72. My son has a PS3

I didn't buy it on black Friday (these kind of things are never going to be discounted on black Friday anyhow). Actually, it took 2 years to save up for it. Two birthdays and two Christmas' I gave him a gift card for Gamestop. He put them away. We explained to the guy at Gamestop what we were doing. He seemed rather shocked and awed that we pulled it off that way.

Then my parents gave me a little TV and we put it in the basement (I was renting a house in a "beautiful" neighborhood with exceptionally accessible windows), and played "Little Big Planet" with my daughter and him. We didn't have a couch yet, but that was ok. It was a TON of fun.

That was a couple of years ago. Now Sony introduces the big bad PS4. Does he want it? Maybe. Will he get it? Hell no. We have plenty of games to play. And TV video game time is just not all that good for the kids. They tend to go way overboard with it. Add in all the on-line and real time chat, and it can quickly get out of control.

About that lobbying? Oh yeah. I lobbied for an increase in MY minimum wage. And then I did it again. And again. Things are BETTER. I'm still not rich - in fact one ounce of bad luck and I'd be left with nothing once again. I accept that. That's life.

[MADem]

73. Those kinds of things ARE discounted on Black Friday--it's obvious you are unclear on the concept!

I hate to use Faux Snooze as a source, but a fast google drags this up:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/12/02/xbox-one-dominates-playstation-4-in-black-friday-console-war/

Xbox One dominates PlayStation 4 in Black Friday console war



Here's another source with "sale" data...you know, for those poor folk looking for a bargain:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-beats-ps4-at-wal-mart-target-on-black-friday-report/1100-6416505/

Xbox One beats PS4 at Wal-Mart, Target on Black Friday - Report
InfoScout finds Xbox 360 and Xbox One combine to own 61 percent of all sales at the two retailers during Black Friday last week.

...InfoScout says the Xbox 360, which benefited from a $99 sale price on the 4GB version at Wal-Mart, finished second overall. The 12GB PlayStation 3 was marked down to $150 at Wal-Mart and finished third overall, capturing 15 percent of overall sales across Wal-Mart and Target.....

[Chico Man]

74. Those are old systems

The xbox 360 came out in 2005, ps3 in 2006.

What do you think the price of these systems will be in January? They will be nearly a decade old.

[MADem]

75. So? That's what poor folk can afford! The cheaper systems!

Good grief, you really are amusing, in an odd way....

[Chico Man]

76. You're right

For those that have been patiently waiting 8 years for a very limited quantity of under accesorized XBox 360s to go on sale for $99 at Walmart, Black Friday makes total sense.

It makes more sense as a loss leader and stock reducer for Microsoft and Walmart, but hey. 8 years for a gameless system with 1 controller and subscription based online gameplay.. And refurbished systems available at or below that price for years...

Still pretty silly. I don't see the value.

[MADem]

77. Not everyone plays online. You might not "see the value" but people who want their

child to have the system do see it. And I wouldn't be surprised if affordable controllers were on sale that day, too--perhaps the jazzy wireless ones...?

You're just annoyed because of the whole "poor shaming" thing--and that isn't "silly" at all. But that is where your head is at, late-breaking "ancedotes" notwithstanding.

[Chico Man]

78. More likely they were overpriced

To make up for loss leaders. If I were informing commercial strategy that's what I would do to enhance the bottom line. It's not poor shaming, it's poor manipulating.

Having been "poor", and still close to "poor", there is no point in me shaming.

Hell, opt into the bank overdraft protection too. Sign up for sub-standard high risk mortgages. Buy the car with a "no-one denied" auto loan. Transfer balances from one credit card to another with 12 months no interest (forget the 4% fee). Get the TV from Rent-A-Center. Carry credit card balances. Get that new car stereo, those new shiny rims, that X-Box or PS3. Go for the unaccredited on-line degree. Listen to those infomercials. Line up for Black Friday for those unbeatable deals.

I guess there is a different between poor who want to stay poor and poor that would rather move on. If you are poor and want to stay poor, engage in all of the above activities. And forget looking for work. If you want to move on, stop spending.. and start believing in yourself.

[MADem]

79. What's happening here on suburban-comfy DU, is, to my eye, poor shaming.

There's finger wagging, expressions of scorn and disgust at these people who will sleep in a tent that someone insists costs three hundred bucks (but you can buy at a discount house for twenty bucks), mocking, derision, all sorts of nastiness.

And now here you are, separating the poor into "poor who want to stay poor and poor that would rather move on." You lecture them to "stop spending" like you know anything about them--but you don't.

I have a funny feeling that the mother who wants an affordable toy for their kid doesn't give a crap what you think, to put it bluntly. They just want to make their kid happy within a budget that they've set for themselves, and they'll put in the time to make that happen.

[Chico Man]

81. I don't know anything about them?

That's a huge assumption. I could spill my entire life story here on DU but I'd rather save you (and my personal privacy).

Common 'Cents': Money Tips for the Working Poor -- Avoid Financial Traps
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ryan-mack/money-tips_b_2497048.html

If you were walking down the street and you saw a check cashing store, a corner store loaded with pre-debit cards for sale, a Rent-A-Center, a payday loan facility, or a tax shop pushing refund anticipation loans, would you think you were in Beverly Hills, California? Of course not! The question is, "Why aren't these types of businesses located in Beverly Hills?" Or better yet, "Why is there a positive correlation between the increase in numbers of low income families in neighborhoods and the presence of those types of businesses?"

More lecturing and poor shaming, I guess?

[MADem]

84. Yes. You are lecturing and poor shaming. Your lack of compassion suggests that your agenda is not

coming from personal experience. Anyone who had the personal experience of poverty would never approach this issue the way you are doing.

In short, you can try hustling me till the cows come home--I'm not buying it.

[Chico Man]

85. As the old agage goes

We can agree to disagree.

From that link..

It is time to practice some financial discipline, or better described as delayed gratification, and give a higher priority on having a stable financial future than on owning high ticket items. I remember watching an old black and white television set, with no channel knobs (needed to use pliers to change the station), and wire hangers to get reception for years before we got a color television. I know for a fact they sell sofas at places such as the Goodwill, the Salvation Army, or even Craigslist.org. The library has free computers to use in most communities and they are always selling used computers online at multiple outlets. All these and more are easy solutions that save crucial dollars which can go towards more important financial goals for low income families such as savings, college, or other critical household expenses.

Take care.

[MADem]

88. Yeah, that works real well when the people you're lecturing don't have enough money

to be able to AFFORD to open a bank account. Save? If you don't maintain that two hundred dollar minimum balance, they'll take money from you. And there's no bank in the neighborhood--it gets robbed too much so they don't serve this community. You want your money? You want to make a deposit? Pay bus fare, change buses twice, and go to the bank--two hours out of your day. You're gonna do that?

You can buy that cheap sofa for seventy bucks (and how you gonna get it home--strap it to your back?)....but you can RENT that sofa for ten or fifteen bucks a month. And they will deliver it and pick it up when you can't make the payment.

You're preaching 1970s bullshit (Black and white tv with knobs? Hello--all signals are digital now, that shitty analog TV will NOT work) in a 21st century world, and you are poor shaming. It reminds me of stories from parents and grandparents, talking about going to school in snow up to their asses, and it was uphill both ways. Enough with the bootstraps exhortations and "lack of discipline" insinuations. I'm not buying it.

[Chico Man]

90. They can't open a bank account?

Yet they somehow "deserve" a high end video gaming console?

Give me a break.

[MADem]

91. WOW--listen to you! Incredible!!!

You're really outing yourself, here, talking about what people "deserve." Like you're the arbiter of how people spend their money--listen up, poor people--"Chico Man" insists that you live in absolute squalor, turning the broken knob of a useless black and white TV, with no distractions or petite-luxuries, because you don't DESERVE it.

I gotta memorialize this POS post of yours--this can't be permitted to disappear into the ether:

Chico Man
90. They can't open a bank account?
View profile
Yet they somehow "deserve" a high end video gaming console?

Give me a break.

Gee, weren't you, just a little while ago, mocking the $99 consoles as old technology? Now they're too fancy for those uppity poor people to "deserve?" And clearly, you skipped over the bit where the banks don't locate in underserved communities, and when they do, they require high minimum balances? That bit escaped your notice? Hmmmm?

Poor shaming--you're doing it and you don't even see it.

Most people, when they find themselves as deep in a hole as you find yourself, stop digging. You obviously lack the insight to see where you've exposed yourself and your "poor shaming" attitude, but .... whatever. By your words we're getting to know you all too well!

[Chico Man]

92. What about toilet paper?

According to your other post.. Even this is made too difficult for the "poor" because it is over priced and would take a two hour bus ride to find...

Shoot, they could choose the playstation over the toilet paper. It is their choice after all.

Do I deserve a Porsche? I want one very badly.

[MADem]

93. Keep digging, "Chico Man!"

You are apparently confessing that you have no first hand knowledge of the overpriced corner store with the expired shit in it, that is a staple in most marginal neighborhoods? This is news to you? I thought you were lecturing the poor from a perch among them--that's surely the impression you were trying to impart a few posts back!

And you're suggesting that all they have in their pocket, ever, is a buck forty for butt wipe? Why, because that's all they're "allowed" to have, in their squalor, per you? Not only does that not make a lick of sense, but it does show us all that you've completely lost the bubble--even more so when you equate their desire to give their kid a $99 console with your dreams to own a Porsche--because, ya know, they're the same....those poor people "down there" wanting that XBox are the "equivalent" of Important You, wanting that car!

DO go on, though....what else can you, financial whiz kid and didactic lecturer and shamer of the poverty stricken, tell us about the poor among us? What other pearls of wisdom would you like to toss before them, so that they may better themselves?

[Chico Man]

97. Last time I checked

We deserved life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Playstation amendment hasn't yet passed the House.

That's not saying I advocate laws against being an idiot. We are free to bury ourselves as much as we want. I could go and buy a hundred playstations on credit and hand them away in front of the over priced corner store. But that would be stupid, right?

I do, however, advocate smart financial behavior. Most well to do people I know are pretty extreme penny pinchers. Money is like a liquid- it will always find the cracks. Better to keep a tight ship to avoid drowning. Being poor sucks.

[MADem]

98. Yes, no Playstations for POOR people! They don't DESERVE them! How DARE they aspire to have a

moment of amusement! They must live in squalor, in misery, or save every penny like robots, eschewing any personal pleasures, sitting in the dark and counting their pennies, because "smart financial behavior" is just so freaking easy when one lives paycheck to paycheck!

Thus spake "Chico Man!"



You really are....something!

[Chico Man]

100. I never said no Playstations for poor people

I never said they didn't deserve them. I never said they should live without amusement, or in squalor, eschewing any personal pleasures, sitting in the dark and counting their pennies. Not once. Those are your words, not mine.

So please stop putting words in my mouth.

What I'm saying is simply this.

If a poor person doesn't want to be poor any more, then they could, at their own will, make smart decisions, such as passing on the Playstation, to help with that journey.

Every little bit counts.

If a poor person spends all of their money on amusements, and they wonder why they are still poor, then perhaps it's because they spent all of their money on amusements. It's not because someone else wasn't charitable, or because someone else didn't give them a raise, or someone else didn't forgive their debt, or someone else charged too much for the goods.

[MADem]

101. Yeah, you did. Anyone reading your scolding screeds takes those points away.

You also equated a poor person's desire for a shitty little console for their kid with YOUR desire for a Porsche.

Most people that deep in a hole, as I said, stop digging.

You just can't help yourself though--you gotta double and triple down. Now you're saying that someone who stands in a line to buy a bargain item is "spending all their money on amusements."

You just can't help yourself, can you? You just have to paint the economically disadvantaged as some sort of "other," when there, but for the grace of Allah, go any one of us.

Astounding, your remarks. Just astounding.

[Chico Man]

105. No I didn't say that either

I said if someone "spends all of their money on amusements". No reference to Black Friday. Spending all of one's money on amusements could involve a Black Friday shopping spree though, couldn't it? And who's fault would that be? The scales can always be tipped. Perhaps it was the Playstation purchase that tipped them. Who knows.

There is no difference here. There are necessary goods and there are goods for luxury and entertainment. There is nothing necessary about a Playstation. There is nothing necessary about a Porche. Any able bodied, free person, poor or otherwise, could set their sights on these goods and make possessing them the pinnacle of their existence. I can't judge that and I won't judge that.

I can only offer advice for getting out of poverty and debt, since I've lived it myself. Yeah, it was my own bootstraps. Yeah, it was my own financial discipline. Yes, it was educating myself about how commercial marketing works, so that I could avoid the pitfalls. Stop trying to make that sound mythical, as if someone else needs to come in and save the day. Indeed, it can happen, thank goodness. And it happens every day in this country. And it starts by looking at crap like Black Friday and saying "no thanks". That's a gimmick and a pitfall. I can do better.

[MADem]

106. Yeah, you did--and now you're assigning blame, too!

These are YOUR words!

Spending all of one's money on amusements could involve a Black Friday shopping spree though, couldn't it? And who's fault would that be?

Like I said, the smart person stops digging....!

[Chico Man]

107. Nothing wrong with that

Oh by the way, I also managed a free Ivy League education with a 4.0 GPA. Admission is need blind and tuition is need based. How's that?

How Ivy League Admissions Work
http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/college-planning/admissions/ivy-league-admissions5.htm

One of my classmates did some time for some bad deals in Central Falls. He recently graduated from Law School. Look it up - "Central Falls Yale Law School".

So, yes, we keep digging, no matter how many diversions and smoke screens you care to throw. I know how to separate the empty from the meaningful. Unfortunately I'd say you keep coming up quite empty.

[MADem]

112. Cool story, bro!!!!! You live in poverty with a 4.0 from an Ivy League school!

And you've got the brass to talk about "diversions and smokescreens?"



You know what to do...!

[Chico Man]

114. Tell it to my classmates

From the Navajo reservation.

[MADem]

116. Hahaha!

Now you're on the rez!

Cool story, bro!

[Chico Man]

118. No

But I did spend a night at the NCI (Navajo country inn).

[LordGlenconner]

82. Your son's PS3 should be donated to a charity immediately

Practice what you preach.

[Chico Man]

86. That's not what I was preaching

And what good would doing that do? We worked pretty hard for that. It's hardly a charitable item. Clothes, books, furniture, household furnishings... charities stop by here a few times a year since we joined two households and have a lot of unneeded goods.

[TBF]

102. "It's like a giant pyramid scheme"

It is - much like capitalism itself.

[SidDithers]

71. Righteous...

Well said.

Sid

[LordGlenconner]

80. Well said, I wish I could rec your post

I particularly liked the reference to poor shaming which is more or less what this amounts too. There's been a LOT of moralizing on DU lately. Not sure what that's about, but some of the people just aren't happy unless they're judging others or entertaining some fantasy of a violent uprising against the oppressors.

[MADem]

87. There's a lot of that going on, not just in this thread, but all over the board where this topic

comes up.

"If THEY would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps....!!"

"THOSE PEOPLE don't know how to save their money....they should JUST (do this, that or the other...)..."

Some of these folks should try living in a shitty, "underserved" neighborhood where, if you want a roll of toilet paper, you go down to the overpriced store and pay a buck forty for something that would be sixty cents in a discount supermart.

But gee...why don't they "just" go to the discount supermarket instead? Maybe because it's four city blocks and two bus rides away, and would take two hours out of the day just in travel time?

It's this kind of shit that irritates me no end--a lot of finger wagging, a lot of scolding and shaming, and no damn clue. They haven't been there, they haven't done that, yet they still feel like they have the right to wear the damn tee shirt!

[LordGlenconner]

94. Food is another popular orgy of judgement

For example, those who can't afford to buy organic are simpletons, at deaths door, doing it wrong, lesser people, ignorant, gluttons, etc.

[MADem]

96. And how dare they not buy fresh fruits and vegetables, when the closest place to buy them

is that famous four city blocks, two bus rides, and an hour each way commute!

I'd love to dump some of these folks in neighborhoods that don't have the Fresh Fields around the corner and the Starbuck's down the street, and see how they deal.

I would imagine, if they survived the week, they'd be tipping down to the corner store for those sketchy eggs in the refrigerator case, the Wonder Bread, and the can of corned beef hash for breakfast, and be glad there was enough shit in the store to make up a meal. And even if they overpaid for it, it wasn't two+ hours out of the day to get the stuff, and make it back home on your one day off.

[LordGlenconner]

99. They'd be lucky to last a week

Or maybe we might be surprised because I expect there is a fair level of hypocrisy in these posts. I think a lot of the more judgmental types DO shop at Wal-Mart and they DO eat McDonalds and they DO eat non-organic food.

[MADem]

104. Of course they do.

I see no small amount of goading and baiting in some of these exchanges, too--trolly people will sometimes affect a caricature of an uber lefty, in order to mock DUers. There's a website where jerks congregate to talk about people who post here, some of those sad sacks come over here and play silly games with the posters here, and they think they're being cool. In actual fact, they're being pathetic. It does speak to the power of DU, though, that people would bother to troll this site and talk about it in a hyper-meta fashion.

It suggests that DU upsets them--and if that's the case, more power to DU!

[Chico Man]

108. Actually

There are roadside stands with fresh vegetables all over the west end. The truck pulls up and they unload the goods. Might need to know a bit of Spanish. I'd say the fast-food McDonald's types are much more likely to be from higher end suburbia.

[MADem]

109. Let's send every poor person in the nation to live in "the west end."

Might make it a bit problematic for them to get to work, though....

[Chico Man]

110. Was talking about Providence

Pretty representative of inner city multi cultural neighborhoods.

The toilet paper was cheap at the corner store too. As were the tortillas.

[MADem]

111. Not really. Providence is paradise compared to some sections of Detroit.

Or if we're going to stick to New England, how about the genteel, unseen, yet nonetheless grinding rural poverty of Northern Maine?

No cheap toilet paper at the corner store there--the corner store is ten miles away, and hard to get to if you don't have a working car.

You have no clue.

[Chico Man]

113. I've spent quite a bit of time in Maine

Lots of blueberries.

[MADem]

115. Lots of hard, bitter poverty in Aroostook County, too. nt

[Chico Man]

117. Father is from a family of 15 in Maine

Ex wife parents' were migrant workers on the blueberry barrens.

[MADem]

119. The poor kids up there like console games, too. nt

[Chico Man]

120. Yeah

It goes well with the weed and speed.

[MADem]

121. A growing issue in Aroostook is meth.

There have been a couple of violent crimes in that normally peaceful county that are drug related.

[Auggie]

2. Black Friday? Black Eye.

[CrispyQ]

3. That bottom image is especially poignant.

[Scuba]

7. +8,749

[MADem]

11. I find it gratuitous, actually. nt

[The Wizard]

5. Who expected something different

from the dumbest country on Earth?

[randome]

8. Did you do the research on that or just make an assumption?

America did not invent mob mentality. Or greed. Or ignorance.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[vaberella]

14. When people see videos like the above...

Voting for Bush two years in a row... National test scores extremely low yet being symbolized as the richest nation on Earth...and a multitude of other things.

It would seem like a safe assumption to make.

We may not have invented any of it...but we sure as hell seem to exemplify them with an exponent.

[randome]

17. We can be better, I agree. We should strive to live up to our ideals.

I just don't like the defeatist attitude that we're the dumbest people on Earth because that implies we will never rise above it. Which further implies there is no point in trying.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[The Wizard]

44. But but but

American exceptionalism. Exceptionally stupid. I stand by my position.

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. Yawn...

Feel better?

[Fumesucker]

43. Not the dumbest, the most propagandized

America is the land where propaganda has been perfected. I doubt the average North Korean believes most of the propaganda their society dishes out, the average American does seem to buy the propaganda our society dishes out for the most part.

[SammyWinstonJack]

51. ...

[JEFF9K]

9. It's jerks fighting with other jerks. No big whoop.

[oberliner]

12. "Buy nothing, stay home, rake the leaves, read a book."

Screw that. This article definitely comes across as self-righteous, pompous garbage. If someone wants to buy a discounted gift for a family member or friend, if that is something that brings them pleasure or joy, then so be it. Not everyone wants to stay home and rake leaves or read books. And showing pictures of emaciated children makes what point exactly? How does raking leaves or reading a book help those children?

[MADem]

31. My point precisely. I also have to say that I smell a little bias in that diatribe.

Gotta drag out the fly-bitten African kiddies any time we wanna make a point about consumerism, I suppose...because, ya know, what a contrast, and all that....



The real deal, though, is simpler--if people were paid a living wage, they wouldn't feel a need to stand in front of a store for hours in hopes of getting an expensive toy to make their child happy.

People who are rich enough to not HAVE to stand out in front of stores to buy their kids things should count their blessings, rather than point and mock those who aren't quite so rich.

Because that is what's happening here--it's the people who are still comfortably middle class and up, mocking those who are on the lower end of the curve for having the nerve to "want" and not be able to "afford."

[oberliner]

35. Good points

And also, if everyone followed the advice of staying home and raking leaves - the impact on the economy would be catastrophic.

[vaberella]

13. It looked like something from World War Z...I have said Zombie hordes will take over. n/t

[Kermitt Gribble]

50. I thought the same exact thing.

Eerily similar...

[yuiyoshida]

15. Seen this before...some place

[TRoN33]

16. This, my friends...

Is the reasons why I has and will never tried Black Friday and Black Thanksgiving shopping EVER.

[panader0]

18. I like the term 'American Spring'

[bvar22]

26. I do too.

It CAN happen here.

When the Working Class and The Poor realize we have more in common with each other
than we have in common with the 1% "Job Creators" and their Mouth Pieces in Washington,
then we can have change too!

Spread the Word.
VIVA Democracy!

[LordGlenconner]

83. You'll be fantasizing about it 20 years from now

And it won't be happening then either.

[LanternWaste]

89. I certainly imagine you place much faith in your prophecies...

I certainly imagine you place much faith in your prophecies...

[LordGlenconner]

95. You have quite an imagination

[CorrectOfCenter]

19. My only complaint with Black Friday is denying employees a holiday.

It should be optional to show up to work that day.

Enough employees would show up to offset those staying home.

Other than that, I don't believe in high horses and moral superiority; I don't participate in Black Friday because I can find equally great deals online, but I won't criticize those who participate in the brick-and-mortar showdowns.

[Martin Eden]

22. Welcome to DU, CorrectOfCenter

I agree with your post.

[MADem]

42. Friday is often a work day--it's THURSDAY (a national holiday) that sucks as a work day. nt

[Martin Eden]

21. They're being good consumers ...

... in our consumer-based economy.

More people with more disposal income buying more stuff creates more jobs and is the engine that drives our economy.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that's the economic system we live in.

IMO we need to re-examine our values and develop a better, more sustainable economy that floats everyone's boats a lot better than the current one.

[TBF]

103. good post ...

[Sheri]

24. the bottom image is profound. knr nt

[HomerRamone]

25. We're going extinct from over-consumption

and many refuse to think about it (or much of anything). Yes, the system encourages this but it's hard not to hate anti-intellectualism that makes everybody suffer...

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

30. These displays are...

...nothing more than the peasants fighting over the crumbs of dwindling resources. "Let them eat cake" indeed!

[page of coins]

37. Thank you for bringing us back to reality. And even if world hunger

was wiped out, the craze for "stuff" is still a sad reflection of a nation that has its priorities screwed up. I wonder what other countries think of us?

One more thing I have noticed duiring the start of this holiday season: young children who seem listless as they sit and eat out, see sights, etc. I wonder why they are so jaded so early? One theory I have is that the more, more, more indulgence creates ennui at some point--a saturation. It's sad because they are not even teenagers and seem dead inside!

[Lifelong Protester]

54. I feel bad for those who were not voluntarily working

I' m nostalgic for the days when on Thanksgiving you'd drive by "dark" stores.
I also feel bad that folks feel they have to buy all this "stuff"
I feel that somewhere the rich CEOs are laughing at the antics of the 99% and enjoying the "peasants" being "revolting".

I don't see this "open on Thanksgiving" as a good thing...just my opinion, and no, I did not myself go shopping on Thanksgiving.

[alarimer]

55. I HATE the holidays, really, really hate this time of year.

It is all meaningless consumerism run amok. Your spoiled brat does not need the latest whatever. Grandpa can do without the 55 inch TV. FUCK consumer culture and the rampant greed of the corporations.

People should NOT have to work on Thanksgiving.

We need to just stop buying shit we don't need (like the latest igadget every fucking year) and stop buying meaningless crap as "gifts." Start doing things for people instead of buying crap they don't need but insist on having.

[Skittles]

60. sad, pathetic and disgusting