Great Read!" Why do poor people waste money on Luxury Goods”..

[busterbrown]

Many of us are so quick to judge..

From TPM:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/why-do-poor-people-waste-money-on-luxury-goods

[Wounded Bear]

1. K & R

Cue the rush of self-actualized, self-aggrandizement crowd in 1....2....3.....

Good read. Thanks for the link!

[MADem]

2. This doesn't just apply to clothing, either--the same argument can be made for consumer goods.

That really was a great read.

[knitter4democracy]

4. Exactly. If you're hiring, and someone pulls out a non-smartphone...

What does that signal to you?

[MADem]

5. I'm quirky, so that wouldn't bother me!

I don't have a smartphone, but I only need a cellphone to say "I left the list at home...milk, eggs, bread, and what else?"

I am also cheap as hell, and I get a kick out of people who, like me, will pinch a silver dollar till the eagle screams.

I just don't get too wrapped up in how other people spend their money. If they want to spend it on things that are important to them, fine. I have some stupid preferences, myself. I'll jump on a plane and go halfway around the world on a whim, if I have a mind to do that. Is that a "waste" of money? Sure, to some...to me, though, it's fun, and life is short.

About the only time I might get all "Why are you buying that shit?" is if someone isn't taking care of their kids; you know, Mamma is wearing Manolos and the babies are barefoot, something on those lines...! So long as people are taking responsibility for those that depend on them, though, they can do what they want and it's not up to me to tell them how to run their lives...

[knitter4democracy]

6. Many in HR would disagree, though.

It's a sign that you wouldn't be as available as most companies think their workers need to be. If you can't check your e-mail a zillion times a day, do multimedia texting, and more, then you're not for them.

If you want to get the better job, you need to send the right signals that you are the right person for that job. Clothes, phone/device, speech patterns, eye contact--everyone adds up. Screw up one, and you get relegated to the not-ever pile.

[MADem]

15. Oh, I get what you are saying; there are 'indicators' that a person might be a good fit

for a job; that most certainly would be one -- it's just that as an employer, I'd look for the quirky sort because that's the type of people I like having around me. I like "out of the box" thinkers, people who can apply a new fix to an old problem--those were usually the types of problems I would be expected to solve in my laboring days.

Also, my experience -- at least, in terms of "hiring" (i.e. deciding who I want on my team for this evolution or that) has been different from the mainstream. See, I was in the Armed Services, so anyone I interviewed was in uniform already-- I'd have to get beyond the superficial and try to suss out things like creativity and work ethic. I was a "compassionate" boss, but I often worked issues that involved long hours and lots of weekends. Not fun, high stress, but what one might call "career enhancing" for the person with the right attitude!

[knitter4democracy]

24. When we're job-searching, though, we go for mainstream.

It's damn difficult to get a job these days, so you go with what you know works. I'd love to work in my former quirky alternative high school, but they weren't hiring for this fall, and I needed a job, so I went with more mainstream because it pays the bills. Good thing I like my school.

Still, when we're poor and trying for jobs, we go with what we know works.

[MADem]

28. I agree--one can't afford to "go one's own way" when it's a paycheck that is needed.

I'm retired now, so I have that luxury of not having to deal with that stuff anymore.

[treestar]

99. if they really need that they could supply their employees

with it.

It's so odd we have to cater to them; supposedly they want someone to do work. Instead it seems like they want to judge people, rule over people, and smugly sit there feeling superior because they get to hire someone. All this psychological stuff seems a waste of time and inefficient for the capitalist, who allegedly just wants to make a profit. Instead, it seems there is a lot of other stuff at work here.

[knitter4democracy]

117. Oh, I agree.

I teach high school, though, so I'm used to buying my own materials all the time. Had to buy my own paper just last week. *sighs*

[Marr]

107. That's hilarious. I was developing apps for smart phones when I'd never owned a cel phone.

I wouldn't make any judgements on that score, personally. Except perhaps that the person isn't a gadget zombie.

[knitter4democracy]

119. True, but keep in mind how many HR people think.

It's all about sending the right signals.

[Tigress DEM]

10. MAD!! SOME people know how to be quirky and make it work FOR them.

My cell phone isn't all that smart, but I know I am smart enough to make up for it.

I don't have to have the latest status symbol because I'm not trying to keep up with the Joneses.

I was very lucky on my flight up out of poverty that there was a program that helped people pick out "professional interview and work outfits" kind of like a clothes closet, but a bit upper scale items that would remove a barrier to gainful employment. Attended job club, participated in classes and got resume and interviewing help as well.

I can always dress nice enough, but the "qaulity" of those 2nd hand items was something I could not afford new and wouldn't have a clue to look for in the used areas. I hate shopping. Make a list, go get the stuff is about all I want to do when I shop. All this la tee dah about coupons etc... I buy from stores that have reasonable prices and just get what I need, plus a want or two now and then.

[Ace Acme]

12. My employers got very nervous when I was saving my money

... and investing in tailored suits--instead of buying expensive vacations and taking on mortgages for a car and a condo.

[MADem]

19. +1,000 ....

My cell phone isn't all that smart, but I know I am smart enough to make up for it.


Well said!!!!

[busterbrown]

44. Not everyone is blessed with such talent..

Many have to play these games...to get ahead!

[MADem]

56. We don't disagree...! nt

[knitter4democracy]

26. The key was in getting help.

Not everyone has access to that, though.

[Tigress DEM]

70. Completely true.

Also some people have access, but have been shamed so much about being poor they are afraid to ask for help, think they have to do it all on their own to make it count.

I had a kid to take care of so I did whatever training etc... needed within legal means to get a life for him that gave his a roof over his head, food in his belly and some fun in his life. Things were by no means perfect, but it wasn't for a lack of effort.

So kid knows I love him and would do anything for him ... within legal means and that is our standing little joke. I don't want him doing illegal things I'll have to cover for so it's about loving him there too.

[Blue_Roses]

115. exactly!

"I am also cheap as hell, and I get a kick out of people who, like me, will pinch a silver dollar till the eagle screams."

I have never heard this before, but it has got to be the funniest thing I've heard in a long time! I gotta remember this one.

Thanks! I needed this laugh today!

[Curmudgeoness]

16. If I am hiring (and I have)

and someone pulls out ANY cell phone while I am interviewing them, they will definitely send me the wrong signal.

[knitter4democracy]

25. Not in the interview, no.

Say, when you ask if they're available for a follow-up or you give them your contact info, though? It sends a signal that they're connected and available.

[Curmudgeoness]

30. I just hope that I can make it these last few years at my job

without having to look for another one, because I would be SOL. I do have some decent interview suits, but I have no designer clothes or accessories at all. Nor do I have a cell phone. I would be screwn if I ran into the type of hiring people that the article described. I have never been one to waste money on frivolous items. I do see the point of the article, and I believe that it speaks the truth, although I am not sure that $50 shoes will not make the same impression as $500 shoes would.

[Tigress DEM]

71. It's really more what the clothes do for your own mental toughness.

There are a lot of consignment stores popping up and you can get good looking clothes at decent prices.

Decent suits are fine, just find a few key signature items to upgrade them that make YOU feel like a million bucks and that will make it your suit of armor to fend off whatever flak you get by people rejecting you. I know I usually have 4 interviews before I feel my rhythm come back and I went to coaching at the Unemployment office too.

All the superficial stuff is just to get your foot in the door. So many people competing in such a limited job market or in highly competitive fields. I was out a year and a half during the worst of this and when I got back in it was with a temp agency to rebuild my job record.

Once I got a job that I really liked after plastering the world with my resume, I kept getting calls and headhunters wanting to steal me away. It was intense. Once somebody wanted me, then EVERYONE wanted me. I was like, "Where WERE you people 3 months ago?"

[Curmudgeoness]

74. I can see how the right clothes can help build your confidence.

And as the article said, it did matter to many of the interviewers. I am glad you found a job that you liked. And it certainly is true that it is feast or famine when it comes to getting job offers. I have had the same experiences.

Funny story though. One time I went for an interview, and luckily I was first interviewed by the CPA for the company. He was very impressed with my credentials, but both he and the owner had been concerned about me because I was dressed so well. The job was an accountant at a Harley dealership and I was, I guess, overdressed. I did get hired, but I was told never to dress up like that again. Suited me just fine.

[treestar]

100. cracks me up they worry more about what people are wearing

than what they can do.

That shallow 80s mentality, where nothing but the surface mattered.

[Curmudgeoness]

104. Too bad it isn't funny though, if you are looking for work.

It is shallow to a point. I know that I would never care if someone had a cotton tank under a suit instead of a silk one, but I do know that inappropriate dress is a problem. Inappropriate (jeans or shorts) is not the same as not being chic.

One trend that worries me is the use of Facebook, etc. to check out potential hires prior to an interview. They do that all the time where I work now, and it troubles me. I hear comments like "this looks like a nerd" or "this one will not be any fun" and "this one doesn't have enough friends". Seriously? I cannot believe that they think this is more important than whether they can do the job well. When I made a comment about how shallow that was, they said that they would have to spend all day with these people, and they didn't want to be around duds. I guess that I am really lucky that I was there before this bunch became decision makers.

[bettyellen]

108. on the other hand FB helped me weed out potential problem renters. the single lady with a tiny dog?

Had two teenagers, two pitbulls and a boyfriend who was an avowed gang banger. That was a close one!
But yeah, how does a quiet or uncool person bother anyone? I think they are afraid they might not be an apathetic "go a longer", and they might suffer in comparison to a hard worker. That is a common fear.

[Curmudgeoness]

112. I can see some benefit to using FB, and yours is a great example.

And for a job, I would expect drunken, half-naked pictures or a lot of drama in your life posted for all to see would be significant. Of course, the rowdy bunch where I work would lot to see drunken, half-naked pictures if it is a female. They are pigs. And that may well be their fear, that they will look bad if a studious, competent coworker comes in. Such a shame.

On the up side, I bet there are a lot of firms that would be more than interested in these same people.

[bettyellen]

113. yep, sadly a lot of it is fitting in. i was an odd fit for a long time- working with pigs

and just keeping my head down and trying to ignore it wasn't enough. my boss actually complained that I never made mistakes- because he loved tearing people new assholes, and with me he'd have to find ridiculous reasons to. People complained I was a princess, because I warned them going in, I wasn't going to put up with being called a dog or a doormat, or having things thrown at me. They kept their promise, but others resented me for not getting badly abused. But the people who were treated well- they were ones that goofed off and kissed ass.

[Curmudgeoness]

114. You go, girl!!!! Don't take shit.

I refuse to play those games too, and early on, my boss and I had a knock-down, drag-out where I told him to find someone else, I was out of there. He immediately backed down and has never abused me the way I see others abused. I refuse to have someone think that they own me. I am sure it was a balance of doing a good job and earning a little respect or fear from him.

I don't care which it is.

[bettyellen]

108. ooops!

[bettyellen]

110. dupe!

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. I'm negatively impressed by ostentation.

Luckily perhaps, I'm largely ignorant as to what kinds of clothes or shoes are indicators of affluence.

But if you make a big show of flashing your Iphone, you'd better do really well on the written test.

[busterbrown]

46. Many of the available jobs are in retail..

and therefore the appearance/ skills are of paramount importance..
I was a manager for a high end retail chain..

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. It's true, I have as little interaction with retail as I possibly can. n/t

[busterbrown]

52. I know... It’s sad statement but mostly true..

Going to stores used to be different when their were independents, they have disappeared...It’s all about the stock price now..

[bettyellen]

92. Iphones are normal, not anything anyone w/ brain cells would "flash".

You'd often be expected to be "reachable" and no one would care as long as you have working email on it.
There is plenty of hidden spending going on, and it's not more or less laudable than people who do not take pains to hide it the way old money does.

[WinkyDink]

60. That the interviewee is a moron for having his phone on during a job interview.

[knitter4democracy]

97. Like I posted upthread, out afterward.

When getting contact info, scheduling a follow-up, something like that, then it's okay to pull it out.

[K.O. Stradivarius]

72. What does it say to a potential employer if you pull out ANY phone during an interview?

[bettyellen]

106. kids do it all the time. I say, put it away, and....next!

[knitter4democracy]

120. I tell my students this all the time.

They haven't learned how to use those devices properly yet, so I look at it as my job to do so.

[sweetapogee]

98. when you are interviewing for a job

turn the cell phone off, keep it out of sight. The interviewer should have no idea what kind of phone you have.

[knitter4democracy]

121. People get it out at the end.

When getting someone's contact info or setting up a second interview. Other than that, it should stay off and entirely away, yes.

[TeamPooka]

3. K&R!

[Demo_Chris]

7. Ludicrous...this cap is exactly wrong

Poor people do not blow their money on luxuries as part of some complex 'working the system' strategy. That's complete crap. In truth, poor people don't blow their money on luxuries very often in any case, largely because they don't have money. On the rare occasion they do, like tax refund time for example, and they buy some fancy elite indulgence like a PS3 or an NFL team jacket the reason is because fuck you.

They aren't saving for tomorrow because there is no tomorrow. Poor people aren't planning some COMEBACK, they aren't planning shit. Poor people aren't charting s course to prosperity, they are stumbling from one expensive crisis to the next. There's no saving, there's just surviving today with a roof and food and some sliver of sanity. Poverty is like playing whack-a-mole a crackhead speed, knowing that eventually you will lose the game.

So if you have the cash and you want a luxury item like Nike shoes or whatever, fuck it, you buy the shoes and you hate yourself for doing it but whatever -- you (and the rest of society) already hated yourself anyway. At least you have cool shoes. And the poor person knows better than ANYONE how little that actually matters.

[nilram]

9. I think what you say is true, too, but Ms Cottom is writing from her own experience.

[MADem]

20. I know some people like those Ms Cottom describes.

The picture she painted resonated with me...

[DLevine]

11. Agreed. That's been my experience. nt

[Tigress DEM]

13. Actually, BOTH are true. Poor people come in all different sizes, thought patterns and colors.

The article is talking about someone's experience. They had a lesson and a reason for what they did and lots of people learned things like that and it influenced how they think and act.

Poor people might buy fancy shoes for the same basic reason others do - it's what they really want to wear - AND with the underlying knowledge that 1 pair of good leather shoes will last a lot longer than 3 or 4 of the cheap ones, so in the long run it's a better use of the money. (Long as it isn't for a kid who is going to grow out of them in 2 months!)

Poor people like the rest of us, blow their money putting a little LIFE in their life. So what? Getting through the day is so hard that sometime you just gotta do the do and having a few special events in life or purchases that make life easier makes doing the do more possible.

The system will suck up that tax return if it isn't spent down in 30 days and you can tell them how you spent it. So yeah, I get why people buy whatever they want at tax time. It's a time of choice and they get to flip off the establishment in the process. Not bad work if you can get it.

[bettyellen]

103. So true, I grew up with a poverty mindset, and it took a lot of years to shake off and treat myself

well. Others less well compensated found it much easier to blow through cash than me. Go figure, we all learn this somewhere.
My friend just watch an oilman's widow spend 500K in two hours, when they expected no sale at all. (she usually buys at their prestige atelier in Paris and knows the designer personally). We spent an hour trying to figure out why she was suddenly doing this, and concluded she wanted to "show them" because they had stopped paying for her hotels and plane tickets, and she was angry. Nasty to everyone while spending a half a million. Jeeze, I'd never buy a sheared mink evening gown when I was in a bad mood, LOL. Go figure.

[bvar22]

21. Reccing this post by Demo_Chris.

Well said.
You sound like you've been there.....or close to it.

"They aren't saving for tomorrow because there is no tomorrow. Poor people aren't planning some COMEBACK, they aren't planning shit. Poor people aren't charting s course to prosperity, they are stumbling from one expensive crisis to the next. There's no saving, there's just surviving today with a roof and food and some sliver of sanity. Poverty is like playing whack-a-mole a crackhead speed, knowing that eventually you will lose the game. "

Thank You,
and much needed on DU these days.
The Reagan Democrats here will never understand.

[busterbrown]

47. Blue Dog Democrats simply have to be expelled...

However, not now...These next 2 elections should strike fear into us..Sad situation..

[X_Digger]

35. Goddamn right. n/t

[duffyduff]

36. Until somebody has been there, he or she has no right to judge.

I literally have to nickel-and-dime everything because so little money is coming in. Almost all of your thinking surrounds about whether you should buy this or that.

Hell, buying a pair of decent running shoes is a major purchase with me. I recently bought two new sweaters on sale, the first I have bought in three or more years.

To hell with people who second-judge people who are destitute. They don't know shit.

[Buns_of_Fire]

53. Beautifully stated. nt

[sendero]

116. I think your point..

.. is a lot closer to the truth than the OP article.

In any event, if you are trying to get hired and expecting the interviewer to know the difference between a $300 belt and a $30 belt, you are already fucked so there really is no tomorrow.

There is a real and distinct difference between not looking poor and looking "rich" to fashion trendoids. Personally I don't think many fashion trendoids are in hiring manager positions, I've certainly never encountered one.

[Demo_Chris]

123. More, rather than offering the truth, the author offers justifications, thus implying...

That the spending of the poor is open to critique. Her mother's investment in a luxury item is justified and validated, she ONLY spent the cash 'cuz the system made her, so that spending is okay. Let me be crystal... it's ALL okay. Because when you are just trying to get through one more day in a miserable short and painful life, sometimes a fucking cigarette is so beautiful it hurts.

So no, I don't need this author making excuses and rating my spending. I've got that covered, I know she wouldn't approve, and fuck her anyway.

Nuff said.

[sendero]

124. People are gonna do..

... whatever they are gonna do. I believe that getting out of poverty is a lot harder to do than it used to be. I think a lot of people look at the whole picture and just give up.

That is their right, I don't agree with it but everyone has to make their own bed.

[Mr.Bill]

8. Didn't some very rich people

recently spend some foolish amounts of money on some losing political campaigns?

[mainer]

14. Among the really rich, there's an "anti-status-symbol" cachet

In Maine, we have some really, really wealthy people here during the summer who delight in wearing old jeans and flannels and driving pickup trucks. They would never be caught dead wearing a Rolex. And they shun anything with a designer logo on it.

[bettyellen]

17. yeah, old money often pretends they got there by being frugal instead of born lucky, LOL

or that the money doesn't mean much to them.
they are not fooling anyone

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. heh.

they are not fooling anyone

They like to think they are.....probably makes them feel better.

[bettyellen]

27. the amount of scorn they have for "new money" betrays their embarrassment that they did nothing

themselves to earn theirs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. It's usually not an act.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/2013/02/27/take-note-of-these-5-frugal-habits-of-the-rich

According to Bankrate.com, 86 percent of people who spend cash on luxuries like expensive cars, jewelry, and electronics are non-millionaires trying to act the part by purchasing luxury brands.

You don't get rich by spending income on purses and watches. You get rich by spending that income on investments.

[bettyellen]

58. old money doesn't "get rich" by doing anything, except being born. and their poor folk drag is just

an act they were taught from a young age, so as not to incite jealousy or to have it appear that nothing as crass as money matters to them. i can assure you it does to most of them.

[mainer]

59. Not all money is "old money."

The millionaires I know are all pretty thrifty, which is how they got to be millionaires.

[bettyellen]

61. no, but I was speaking to the common affectations of old (serious) money.

not newly minted millionaires.

[pnwmom]

65. But even most "new" millionaires got there by

being thrifty, working long hours, and making careful investments -- along with a certain amount of luck.

Not by ostentatious spending.

[bettyellen]

79. I was discussing how "old" money fools people into thinking exactly that- when the truth is,

they didn't earn it at all. It is a snobby east coast affectation- they are no better than the fools that wear their money on the sleeve. They were merely raised to think it is tasteless, and wiser to 'blend in" to have a more peaceful coexistence with us suckers. When we admire "old money" for their thrift, that is exactly what we are- suckers.
Wow, someone got auto removed over this. LOL, poking at the wealthy got someone that angry, eh? Funny.

[pnwmom]

80. I once lived in a town that had some of those people.

I think some of them were genuinely frugal (at least compared to their means) in their personal habits, something they learned from their parents and grandparents.

And it wasn't just that they were trying to hide or blend in. Maybe it was the opposite of the people in the OP. They didn't feel they had to compete with wasteful status symbols in order to get what they needed.

[bettyellen]

81. yet many march into Saks and drop thousands on cashmere, have 2-3 other homes they never

mention to anyone and love that you have no idea at all that their purse costed as much as Oprah's. There is a huge market catering to these people. And it has always been a stable one, it's just much harder to see.

[pnwmom]

83. The people I'm thinking about drove around in an old VW.

Why would they buy expensive handbags and clothes and not spend it on transportation?

[bettyellen]

86. The same reason they walk into Saks with holes in their shabby clothing.

It is an affectation of East Coast old money. It's very rare to see in the South or West, but in NY and all up the eastern seaboard, it is a thing. They are broadcasting the illusion that money doesn't matter. Believe it at your own peril.

[pnwmom]

89. Maybe they're not broadcasting the illusion that money doesn't matter.

Maybe they're broadcasting the opinion that money DOES matter and buying things because of labels (that don't come with added function) wastes money.

[bettyellen]

90. you can buy into their "am rich because I am thrifty" bullshit if you want- but if they

didn't earn it, they didn't earn it. Despite the well worn clothes, they have a choice to live a life of leisure and ease. They just do not like to broadcast it. But they aren't all waiting for the cashmere to go on clearance either. They have their own markers of status and expensive labels they go for too, they are just not ones the public is very familiar with. The bankers and their wives in Tribecca would probably fool you too, dressed in sweats all the time- because you might not realize they are cashmere and cost 900$ for just the hoodie. Their loft apts look like nothing from the outside, but are some of the most expensive apts in the city- actually, in the world.

Why would it be virtuous if people born with money are cheap anyway, LOL? They are piggybacking on their ancestors hard work. It's total bullshit.

[pnwmom]

125. I'm NOT saying they're virtuous.

Virtuous does not equal "cheap with money."

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. Old money was new money at some point in their family tree.

The collective attitudes of the family described in the OP will never allow the individuals in it to collect any meaningful wealth.

On the other hand, it reasonable to suppose that the person who first got wealthy in the "old money" family at least tried to influence his or her kids.

The money lessons of the middle class are useful skills and attitudes.

My belief that taxes on the rich are too low isn't based on an idea that they are personally without virtue. Many of the rich people I know are frugal bordering on cheap. They don't lease, they don't trade-up and they don't buy fancy clothes. They do have nice houses, because a 5% appreciation rate on a $400,000 house is a better investment than a 5% appreciation rate on a $100,000 house. They didn't get rich, or even maintain "rich" by being stupid.

Wealth concentration is destablilizing society, in part because of a divergence in our ways of thinking. The attitudes in the OP are bad, unhealthy, self-destructive and not worth rationalizing.

[bettyellen]

68. it's interesting that hoarding money is suddenly so laudable, if the person dresses down

to appear ordinary while doing it. Trust me, I know about the "habits" of old money- what you don't realize is that is is an affectation in many cases. They shun easily recognizable status symbols- it is an aesthetic decision, a camouflage of sorts.
The old money I hear about all the time spends your annual salary at Saks buying shabby tweeds and belgian leather goods the proles would never ever recognize as expensive- that is why they love it so- we are all too beneath them to know their code. Look at how crappy the royal family looks, and I can assure you most of it ordinary people could never afford such things. They have so much well invested, it barely makes a dent. Only the most foolish squander what they themselves never earned. But they aren't all the penny pinchers they pretend to be, not by a long shot.
Anyway, around here there are no such things as 100K houses, LOL. 400K gets you a studio apt, so I don't think we are even discussing the same people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. Perhaps we aren't talking about the same people. Maybe it's a rural/northwest thing.

In my area the wealthy got their start in logging, construction or farming. "Old" money is two or three generations. They'll drop $100k on a log truck or harvester, but drive their '99 F150 until the fenders rust off.

They truly don't give a shit about bling.

The Millionaire next door accurately described the ones in my acquaintance.

[bettyellen]

73. true, if they come to drop serious money, they come to NYC to do it. so that behavior

(even when discreet) gets noted here. I have a friend who works in sales of luxury goods and the line she reps can't get any old money clients, LOL. They generally go to other depts for for dowdier fashions, basic cashmere everything, and lesser known labels than hers. They are literally offended at well know labels-only because the hoi polloi covets them.
In America, only entertainment people, Texans and Cali people really go all out with the obvious status purchases. And you'll be heartened to know, they can be quite frugal about it in their own peculiar way- calling in advance to arrange for the store to pay for their plane tickets and hotel rooms. They refused one lady they had flown out a few times because she would never buy anything in NYC, and only shop their Paris store. She came in irate, and scolded them for two hours while she spent 500K. Had them redesign several designer pieces just for her. It was like she had to do that to remind them she is important. A revenge spree. Next time, they will buy her the plane ticket. It's hard for me to understand that kind of spending, but heck, at least she is not hoarding it. Lots of people are earning a living on that purchase. And the clothes go to charity auctions and museums after all is said and done.

[mainer]

82. while the rich may be frugal on some things

they aren't afraid to spend on quality. Or on experiences.

A lot of rich people may wear shabby clothes, or drive an older car. But they'll spend freely on a guided trip to the Amazon or Africa, and they'll go equipped with the best, expensive Leica binoculars. (Leica binoculars look like any other set of binoculars to most people, but those in the know will agree that the lenses are the best, and make a big difference when wildlife viewing.)

The frugal rich won't waste their money on a Breitling or Rolex watch because increased price doesn't correlate to that much better quality in a watch. They think that those who do buy Rolexes are wearing their foolishness on their sleeves.

The frugal rich may cook their own meals at home, eat simply, and haunt farmers' markets. But once they're out of town, they'll head for the most creative restaurants because -- once again -- it's for the experience.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. A pair of Leica binocs from Ebay cost* less than a pair of Bushnell from WalMart.

*cost = purchase price - resale value

And you're not seeing the entire ecosystem of rich people.

[mainer]

85. True about Ebay! But I suspect rich don't like used.

And would be OK spending the $3,000 bucks for a brand-new pair of Leicas.

Which beat Bushnells by a mile.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. I think that would be a bad assumption.

Wealthy (not to be confused with high income) people didn't get that way by embracing waste.

[bettyellen]

91. Yep, in NYC it is the accessories that are often the tell. But I know many who work in NYC

high end restaurants and luxury retail and they see big money being dropped by the shabby old money all the time. They are label whores too, it is just that they go for different ones than the strivers do.
I have noticed the shabby thing has become big with the TriBeCa bankers too. Head to toe cashmere, 2k sweaters worn with sneakers, and you wouldn't know it if you weren't very familiar with the apparel industry or knew the signs. Huge expensive dogs are the only obvious tell, otherwise you need a closer look.

[XemaSab]

93. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who are NOT rich

who have the Leica binoculars.

I have Swarovski bins and a Leica scope, and they're #2 and #4 in "most expensive things I own," next to the car and the computer.

Like you're saying, it's about spending money on quality and experience.

[bettyellen]

96. speaking of spending on "experiences" I have a social climbing family member, who is

gorgeous and quite discreet about her obsession with the good life. And discreet about her and her handsome partners' dalliances. Although she has a normal job, she spends all three and a half months of her vacation (works in Europe) skiing alongside the royals winters, playing bridge all of high season in Palm Beach, summers in mansions in Provence and Greek Islands. She never pays for her own transportation or anything at all, they love their company. So much so, one gave her a house near their own, so her husband could be "on call" and help with computers or balancing her checkbook, or sometimes, just company to go away and ski the weekend.
Paying for experiences can get expensive.

BTW, cousin claims hardship on paying taxes (two doors down from Kate Moss) and the few nice things she needs to fit in. In her early twenties, she was a socialist, LOL.

[treestar]

101. I've heard that idea, too

The truly rich don't buy things for status symbols. The nouveau rich and the wannabe rich buy that stuff.

[jmowreader]

18. The people who buy this stuff don't consider it "wasting" their money

Other people consider anyone who buys something better than they have, or that they don't want, to be "wasting" their money.

[ReRe]

23. "Judge not that ye be not judged."

K&R

I don't know where that comes from (the book of Matthew in the New Testament, I think,) but I memorized it when I was a kid. It was a big thing in the church I grew up in, that children learn verses from the Bible and stand up and recite them at different times through the year. Christmas, Easter, etc. Though I no longer practice religion, I realize that those verses learned as a child have kept me on the straight and narrow throughout life.

Another thing that I learned somewhere along the way was to not judge someone else unless you've "walked a mile in their shoes."

Thanks for sharing this article, busterbrown.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Oh, so that's why? Well then I guess I'll stop worrying about malnutrition.

Malnutrition in the US is apparently insoluble because hunger is overpowered by an desire to buy "ridiculous status symbols".

What we forget, if we ever know, is that what we know now about status and wealth creation and sacrifice are predicated on who we are, i.e. not poor. If you change the conditions of your not-poor status, you change everything you know as a result of being a not-poor. You have no idea what you would do if you were poor until you are poor. And not intermittently poor or formerly not-poor, but born poor, expected to be poor and treated by bureaucracies, gatekeepers and well-meaning respectability authorities as inherently poor. Then, and only then, will you understand the relative value of a ridiculous status symbol to someone who intuits that they cannot afford to not have it.

So I'll never understand the need for $200 shoes because I'm not poor?

I was born poor, then lived with a stepmother who was born frugal. Her role modeling, contrasted with my previous situation, made all the difference.

When I go look at a car, I'm not paying dues. I'm not there to increase my social fitness signaling to the salespeople. They are are the ones paying dues. They are the ones who won't profit if they can't see past the carharts, romeos suspenders and flannel shirt. Until they do, they won't have an opportunity to develop a relationship with someone with a decent credit score.

The most traumatic thing in some people's lives is being insulted by a salesclerk hesitant to show them a $2500 handbag? What kind of fucking moron entertains the idea of a $2500 handbag? To me, nothing could be more insulting than the idea that I'm stupid enough to want one. Do I need the social approval of the sales clerk? Pfft.

If you save your money, and think like a middle class person, you won't need that kind of affirmation. Conversely, if you continue to need that kind of affirmation, you'll never have money.

This story and ones like it are rationalizations. If poverty is a problem in this country, then attitudes like this are part of the problem. They are problems to be solved, not excused or rationalized.

I'm willing to accept the argument that it's a cultural problem; that our worth as individuals in a consumer society is tied to our capacity for consumption. I'm not willing to accept the argument that it's unavoidable and that more no-strings-attached money is the only solution.

[Jetboy]

33. Well said.

Thanks.

I am one of those judgemental people but there is only one type I am biased against - High Falluters- they can be rich or poor- they care about the superficial over ALL. BLANK 'EM

[busterbrown]

50. There is a false equivalency comparing Black/poor with White/poor..n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. I only have one frame of reference.

but yeah, the kind of stupid spending I see in my predominately white county are different from what the author describes if no less harmful. Here, the problem isn't "logo clothes" but 6 mpg pickups and e-cigs.

Either way, I think that Demo Chris is closer to the mark. They buy expensive shit instead of dental care or food because fuck you, that's why.

[busterbrown]

55. “Fuck you” means they are playing our game unfortunately a game they learned from us..

Christ when I was growing up everyone was looking at their neighbor’s driveway.. We still do...Until that ends there is no end..I don’t see this ending.. After all ever watch a male tending to it’s pride?

[Jetboy]

31. Sounds like they need to read my thread about buying used

instead of new. Same shiny doo dads and sharp threads, fraction of the price.

[duffyduff]

37. A lot of used is crap. n/t

[Jetboy]

39. Anything available new is also available used.

If you can tell the difference, you're lying.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Items available used have generally already survived a testing period. n/t

[busterbrown]

51. and dirty to boot.. Not cleanable.. n/t

[Jetboy]

77. If you buy dirty used clothes then you deserve them. n/t

[fujiyama]

94. That's bullshit.

Often times the clothes at thrift shops are clean, very lightly used, and you can't even tell that they're pre-owned.

I've known fairly well-off frugal people that shop at them.

[ErikJ]

34. American Income inequality is the biggest reason

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. A lot of truth to this.

Would the author of the OP have described her shame at the Belk's salesclerk who once refused to show her the Dooney and Burke purse were it not established in the collective zeitgeist through Oprah's example?

Oprah can afford one. I'm a person of inherent worth too. "Fetch me the bauble menial so I might cast my avaricious gaze upon it!"

[XemaSab]

38. The ad for this article is for Maserati

[TheDebbieDee]

40. My status symbols are in the form of clothing that I buy at second-hand stores!

I shop at the Goodwill, Salvation Army, Council of the Blind and Red Racks (formerly Disabled American Veterans) Thrift Stores.

You wouldn't believe the fine quality of clothing these snobby rich folks are donating to thrift stores. I've found silk blouses, leather pumps with real-leather soles, dress and skirt suits, etc. I've paid $4.00 for this suit and $2.00 for that blouse. Why, from October 2009 to May 2010, I was the best dressed unemployed woman anyone had ever seen.

[Jetboy]

43. Amen!

Dressed to the 9s with the 10s and 20s in the wallet!

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. I certainly observed from my experience in the Philippines that many, many people would go without

decent food and real necessities in order to have certain status symbols whether it was a smart phone or a car or a house that was completely beyond their budget. - Of course the status symbols would be relative to their situation. It would be common for people to own the latest and most advanced smart phone but have no load to place a call. I think within poor third world societies expensive status symbols elevate people's social position even more than it does in more affluent societies. It is true that many, many poor people simply don't have the luxury to enjoy any luxury goods. But I think there is some truth to a point by the author that status symbols can actually help the poor advance their position by communicating the message that their expensive items are assumed by many to speak represent a person's cleverness, ambition and even respectability.

[KoKo]

63. Dignity to have a few "Entry Goods" to be respected and not looked down on.

Always been that way. But, one does need a bit of something to afford even the smallests of trappings to get in the door. For those well under that ability to afford even a clean shirt or blouse....then it gets grim. They are the lost.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. Perhaps a better investment than a smartphone with no minutes would be a couple more clean shirts.

"look down upon" isn't the right way to look at it. There are good investments and bad ones. If your local culture respects only shitty investments then the culture needs improvement.

[bettyellen]

105. like it or not- most companies want you to "fit in" and you have to "fake it to make it" or you

never get in the door. Good investments would be a nice coat and purse, what kind of nice varies depending on the place. There are unwritten rules everywhere. Hard- but not impossible- to pull off at Goodwill.

[busterbrown]

57. What I love about DU and this thread is...

Very little mention of the “lift yourself up by your boot straps” bullshit..

Most of us were brought up in a time when there was a working middle class. Where most had the opportunity to receive a decent education.. Blacks were not a part of this equation...And for the most part are still not..And thats not
because of their lack of effort...

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. The rich are getting richer...

... but the poor are getting poorer too. To me it's impossible to read the OP and other recent ones like it, and not conclude that there are some self-destructive attitudes, beliefs and values at work that are partly to blame.

I think those are problems that demand fixing. It's not about blame, but it is about self-respect and confronting personal self-determination.

I've never fixed anything by telling myself that all factors involved in it are outside my control. Some are, some aren't.

[busterbrown]

66. If your white that applies.. but unfortunately one is at a huge disadvantage if Black..

Now that I said that...A parent’s love for their children, nurturing, caring etc , in my mind is the the determing factor
as to wether or not a child will work their way out of poverty. Everything else will work itself out if the parents simply are able to do so... Unfortunately if your a Black child in poverty the chances are far less probable.

How long ago was it that a Black was not able to sit next to a white person at a diner or drink from the same faucet?

50 something years? Not so long ago.. The humiliation and disrespect... Not an easy thing to overcome..

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Parents pass on the skills they have to their kids.

Inter generational poverty is at least in part caused by the fact that the parents lack the skills to teach to the kids - such as the difference between income and wealth, or "stuff" and "assets".

A cool pair of shoes is never, ever, going to help a child work their way out of poverty.

I reject the idea that any problem is completely unsolvable or that all attempts to do so constitute right wing bootstrap theology.

For starters, I recommend the book "your money or your life".

I work closely with an organization which was recently given a grant by the Gates Foundation to develop a program to address inter generational poverty in our community. The more I look at the problem, the more I don't think the problem has much at all to do with median family income.

[busterbrown]

75. Bill Gates certainly isn’t someone whom I admire...

Especially when it comes to Education.. The guy has actually given money to ALEC..to support their Charter school agenda which in my mind is a horrible solution to our education problem..

http://www.zcommunications.org/gates-foundation-enables-alec-to-privatize-public-education-by-bill-berkowitz.html

[dembotoz]

76. i see truth in this. Thank you for posting

[XemaSab]

95. "Pay to play" has always been a thing

n/t

[bettyellen]

102. it took me a long time to figure out that they would pay me more if I looked like my upkeep

was higher than it actually is. When negotiating salary, having a nice coat, hair, and a good manicure helped a lot. It's a game, I don't like it- but I can't afford not to play.

[Barack_America]

111. "Fake it 'til you make it"

Reality TV, which is little more than consumerism run amok, is certainly not helping.

The observations about interviewing are also interesting. I'm among the highly educated sub-class, which tends to avoid labels and shows of wealth; however, I will admit to becoming concerned about labels when interviewing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

118. I wouldn't know the difference between a $250 bag and a $2,500 one

unless, perhaps, it had some jewels on it that I assumed were real. In which case I'd think "why put jewels on a bag? It could have cost a tenth without them".

I suppose I'm privileged enough not to have had to think about trying to look rich. But neither would I want to look like someone who'd spend $2,500 on a bag (or the equivalent for me - a watch, perhaps).

[busterbrown]

126. Yea, but a very wealthy 1%er would know that the Channel you are carrying is fake...

These are very important people who will never have you over for a drink... Shame!!

[JI7]

122. or they can "afford" the luxury goods

no matter how much they save it might not help them to pay for college or the big ass medical bills, but they could save enough for something like a clothing item or electronics.

[TBF]

128. I did it for job interviews when I was young -

not ostentatious Chanel bags but I did buy a Brooks Bros. outfit and nice leather portfolio for my interviews. Of course I had to drive to the metro in my 12-yr old car ... but you want to make a decent first impression and show you will fit in and do the job. I am not saying that is how it should be (I think many of you know what I think of capitalism) but you play the game when you have to.

Once I started working I did ok shopping at Marshalls and TJ Maxx type stores. Really wealthy folks would know the stuff wasn't all that, but it was enough to fit in and make a decent living.