how distant must a cousin be before one can date them

[arely staircase]

Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Not just legally, but non ickilly?

Edited to say a couple of third cousins and the gossip around them got this started and also I am not one of them but a third cousin to them both.

[RagAss]

1. Three feet.

[Cleita]

4. Depends on the state. Some say first cousin marriages are okay, others

third cousins or even more distant.

[arely staircase]

12. forgetb what I legal

The case I'm thinking of is beyond the normal 2nd cousin law. And children are out of the question. So we are just talking about general societal gag factor.

[Cleita]

20. For myself, I'd say no closer than third cousins.

Otherwise, I would gag but that doesn't mean others would. But I think the reason I feel this way is that none of my cousins are attractive to me. I like them but even the two who turned out to be very handsome and babe magnets do nothing for my libido. I think you need to poll your relatives and acquaintances, whom I suspect you are concerned about, what they think.

[arely staircase]

21. you are assuming this is about me and not the

proverbial friend.

[Cleita]

22. Whoever, including the friend. n/t

[arely staircase]

24. ok. they are third cousins and though their families aren't real close

it is a small enough community that both sides and third parties would know their great grand parents were brother and sister.

[Cleita]

55. Are the great grand parents alive?

I'm sure it would be creepy to them, but still it seems the parties involved, meaning the distant relatives, need to weigh in and decide whether it's really their business or not. I personally don't think it is and they should get on with their own lives.

[arely staircase]

59. parties involved are middle age

So the original brother and sister are long dead.

[NuclearDem]

9. No, that's what happens with kids with cou--

I'll behave.

[arcane1]

11. I see what you did there.

[LadyHawkAZ]

23. ...

[baldguy]

30. Are you bragging?

[arely staircase]

35. only that I am kin to the both of them nt

[NuclearDem]

2. This'll end well.

[tiredtoo]

3. Depends

if you are a redneck they cannot live in same house.

[tblue37]

5. About 30 miles, because more would make dating inconvenient and costly because of gas prices. nt

[madrchsod]

6. at least third for the sake of the kids!

although some states it`s second cousins....

[CAG]

7. Go ask a teabagger... I think they would

Be experts in these matters

[Iggo]

8. Two counties over. (n/t)

[arely staircase]

10. lol nt

[countryjake]

13. Why do you ask?

[arely staircase]

16. intelectual curriosity

and the constant search for knowledge.

[jberryhill]

25. There is no "knowledge" to be gained here

Obviously, there is a wide range of opinion on the subject, as reflected in the laws of various states.

Different people are going to have different opinions about it, so what "knowledge" is at issue?

[arely staircase]

26. well indeed

Opinions then, counselor.

[jberryhill]

36. Alas, I married a woman unrelated to me

...and haven't the slightest interest with whom others fall in love. I don't know why I should care one way or another, nor why others should.

[arely staircase]

38. Big thanskgiving gossip subject among the broader "staircase" clan nt

[jberryhill]

48. Meh

A couple in love is always cause for joy.

[Hosnon]

100. Yes there is. At some distance, the chance of offspring

being genetically disadvantaged is low enough to not be a risk factor.

Knowledge of that point is very relevant.

[jberryhill]

112. Coupla things....

1. That is information one is unlikely to obtain by asking about dating on a forum, and

2. Dating does not yield offspring. If that were the focus of the question, then it would be appropriate to note that the persons involved are (a) fertile and (b) of the opposite sex.

Again, these types of considerations are reflected in, for example, states which conditionally permit first cousin marriages on a showing of infertility. But I wasn't reading a basket of assumptions into the question. It does give rise, though, to the situation in those conditional states that, should they allow same sex marriages, then gay first cousins will be permitted to marry while fertile opposite sex cousins will not.

[countryjake]

40. Well then, for your edification...

since this is a small-town community you're talking about, I will say that since everybody probably knows everybody else's business, they surely also know the connection that your two "friends" have developed. I say to advise the star-crossed lovers to go for it and the village be damned, if others cannot handle the revelation.

[arely staircase]

49. trust me

I am of the village be damned wing. Thanks. People lile to talk, especially when they have nothing (good) to say.

[rug]

14. It must have been an interesting Thanksgiving.

In Texas, one must be no closer than a first cousin, once removed.

[arely staircase]

17. lol nt

[NuclearDem]

19. I mean, I don't like arguing with relatives at Thanksgiving

But I think this is a bit of an overcorrection.

[arely staircase]

27. yeah at some point keeping peace in the family hits the point of diminishing returns nt

[leeroysphitz]

15. If you have to ask if they're too close they are too close. n/t

[Freddie]

18. Second cousin IMO

That would depend on if you have the same last name (not good) and if people know you are related. If most people don't, who cares.
While doing genealogical research I discovered *lots* of cousin marriages in my family, including first cousins, not that terribly long ago. The British Royal Family is descended from the marriage of Queen Victoria and her first cousin, Prince Albert. Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip are cousins (third?) also.
At least you'll have a good idea of what his/her family is all about!
In the wise words of the King ("Kissin' Cousins&quot :

Yes we're all cousins
That's what I believe
'Cause we're all children
Of Adam and Eve

[IphengeniaBlumgarten]

47. Cousin marriages have often happened

While doing genealogy I have found lots of cousin marriages, mostly more distant than first cousins, but I do have great-great-grandparents that were 1st cousins, think this a little odd, but has not turned out to be any sort of problem, either genetic of social that I know of. As my mother observed, people liked to know what they are getting.

The real problem is: what recessive genes might be in the family -- that is the real ick-factor, not the degree of relationship.

Remember the pharaohs: they favored brother-sister marriages, guess that is the ick-factor for me, but the genetic problems took a while to catch up with them.

[laundry_queen]

124. Yeah, used to be more common

I suppose in the 'old days' when there were some people that lived in smaller villages with no modes of transportation, selection for a mate was limited.

One set of great-grandparents on my dad's side were first cousins. My grandmother was bullied incessantly because of her parents, so there were some social issues with it, even 80 years ago.

Aren't Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip 3rd cousins?

[Vashta Nerada]

28. Planning on going to a family reunion looking for women?

[arely staircase]

29. lol nt

[CorrectOfCenter]

31. Not sure.

I'd be comfortable with a third cousin.

[arely staircase]

32. that is actually the case in question

And this isn't about me btw.

[jberryhill]

57. I'd need a picture of your third cousin first

[TheDebbieDee]

33. If you have to ask the question then you are TOO damn close!

ETA: Leroy beat me to the punch in post #15! GMTA!

[Warpy]

34. First cousins are OK in some parts of the country

although I'd suggest genetic counseling if they want to procreate.

Third cousins should be OK to date.

[arely staircase]

37. my personal opinion just based on ick factor

1st cousins are as gross as brother and sister. 2nd seems wrong somehow but f the doctors say its ok, follow your heart. My post is about 3rds who have created quite a stir but don't really bother me. Its just been a Thanskgiving gossip fest.

[MH1]

119. Clearly, it's a fine thing to do then! Because it kept everyone from discussing

politics and religion, right?



Seriously, I think third cousins are probably ok but better off if the "cousin" reference is dropped, since some people's mental capacity can't process the difference between first cousins (what is normally assumed when someone mentions that Joe is Mary's cousin) and third cousins, which are fairly far apart on the genetic tree.

[Kaleva]

46. Siblings are okay in other parts

[yawnmaster]

39. Depends on the context...

but the bottom line is...
if it is icky to you, it's icky.
if it isn't, it isn't.

And the the local society in which you lives helps to shape your feelings.
In general, at least what I've seen, anything other than 1st cousins wouldn't even be noticed, except perhaps in a close family where people actually keep track of that sort of thing.

[FarCenter]

41. Depends on her age

An aunt of about 55 married her first cousin. No problem.

[struggle4progress]

42. Here's definitive advice

[davidpdx]

86. After watching that I feel like I need therapy

Disturbing

[MADem]

43. Imagine if they decided to get married, and their last names were Duran....

The engagement/wedding announcements in the paper would read ....

Duran-Duran!

Nyuck, nyuck....

[Renew Deal]

44. lol

[arely staircase]

50. in which case Duran Duran should play the reception for tips. nt

[MADem]

63. Now that, as the kids would say, would be EPIC! nt

[Jenoch]

45. Third cousins?

I'm not even aware if I have any 3rd cousins. I know just a few of my 2nd cousins. About 90% of my second cousins could knock on my front door and I would not recognize them. I have met two 2nd cousins who live back in the old country from where my grandparents emigrated. My father's paternal relatives were all killed by Stalin. The others are on his mother's side of the family.

[arely staircase]

52. sorry about the stalinist unpleasantness (no snark)

But that has kinda been my point with the fam. 3rd is distant enough that only in a place like this would we know who the thirds are.

[Jenoch]

54. Would you tell us which part of the U.S. it is that your family resides?

[arely staircase]

58. East Texas nt

[agent46]

51. Six blocks minimum

[llmart]

53. Ask Eleanor and Franklin...

[arely staircase]

56. Second cousins, right?

At least that is what I have been hollaring over rolling in their grave everybody talk at once kitchen discussions.

[dflprincess]

71. Eleanor and Frankin were 5th cousins once removed.

FDR was a 5th cousin to Eleanor's father Elliot and his brother Theodore.

[arely staircase]

80. but started with rhe same surname

Which must have caused the aingst

[Blanket Statements]

60. You can marry first cousins in these states

Cousin marriage legal

Alabama
Alaska
California
Colorado
Connecticut
District of Columbia
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Maryland
Massachusetts
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina*
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Tennessee
Vermont
Virginia

[arely staircase]

62. wow

While I am on the leave these third cousins alone divide , my first cousins are like siblings ( that youbkeep up with slightly less) so first cousin mingling seems creepy.

[Blanket Statements]

65. I think it comes down to preference

I don't have any hot cousins so it's a dilemma I've not faced

[arely staircase]

67. I think in the case of firsts the birth defect problem is there nt

[RebelOne]

130. I didn't know first cousins could marry in Florida.

I lived in Florida and had a totally hot first cousin, but it's too late now

[liberal N proud]

61. Depends on what state you are in

[geek tragedy]

64. If they're a cousin, it's icky. nt

[Demo_Chris]

66. No one else's business. nt

[LumosMaxima]

68. It's all relative.

Heh.

Seriously, I don't think there's anything especially wrong with dating a third cousin, unless they grew up knowing each other and were very close. Some cousins can be as close as siblings, and I don't think it would be psychologically healthy to date someone who has a sibling-like place in one's life. But I've never even met most of my third cousins, and I don't get the impression that very many other people have, either, so I would think that it is rare to have a sense of a third cousin being "family." In that case, there should be no particular psychological ickiness.

[hunter]

69. Neanderthals are close enough...

...Homo habilis is probably too far distant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

[LeftyMom]

70. I read an essay in anthropology that suggested that most marriages in human history

were between second cousins, and that in the absence of a health condition or long history of intermarriage that the statistical risk presented by first cousin pairings is a statistical blip.

If you think about it, the average peasant marriage was to somebody who grew up within walking distance. Multiply that by a few generations and everybody in the region's some distant relation. It was anything to be concerned about we'd all have flippers by this point.

[Coyotl]

74. As an anthropologist, I doubt that.

I'd like to see that article. We know that a minimum gene pool is about 500 persons for a band of humans to be genetically viable, and even then they need some outside exchange over time.

[LeftyMom]

76. To my great surprise I found the article. God bless the internets.

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featkiss

[arely staircase]

79. I just sent off my mouth swabs

Aren't we all at very least 5 thousandth cousins?

[BlueToTheBone]

72. If you're Jerry Lee Lewis

I think it doesn't matter. Legally 2nd. Non icky...not doing it?

[Zambero]

110. That effectvely ended his career

as a 50's era rock & roller anyway.

[Blue_In_AK]

73. It depends on the state

[bluestate10]

75. It's ok if you don't hear banjo music. nt

[hopemountain]

78. haha!

[MFM008]

77. how distant?

in the south...........................................................just across the room.

[arely staircase]

81. third cousins nothing removed

Meaning the couple in question share a set of great great grandparents. Namesake on his side which seems ti cause the butthurt.

[elleng]

82. 'Date?' Anytime.

Marry, depends on the State.

[Retrograde]

83. Marriage between first cousins was not uncommon in pre-Victorian times

in the UK, at least: it's a plot point in Jane Eyre. And Queen Victoria married her first cousin, as, I think, did her grandfather. As did Charles Darwin.

[dawg]

84. Depends ...

on how pretty she is.

[Thirties Child]

85. Third cousins likely share something like 3% of their DNA.

The situation you describe sounds fine, though I know how small towns can be. It's none of their business, but they're going to make it their business. Or try to.

In Colonial Times, cousin marriages were common. Not that many people to choose from. The most amazing mix I found was a couple in 1600s Massachusetts who were first cousins, and their son married a first cousins. Mr. Thirties great-grandparents were first cousins, think they married in New York. Mr. Thirties and I are ninth cousins, three ways, but don't share any DNA. His parents are eighth cousins and do share a tiny bit of DNA.

[davidpdx]

87. I don't know for sure

But if they are in love, then as their relative I'd just be happy for them and wish them well.

I recently started doing genealogy a bit so I have learned who some of my distant relatives are. In my life I can not remember meeting very many of my cousins and the number of times I saw them was maybe two or three times before I was an adult. Some families have a stronger connection with distant relatives than others. Mine never had that.

[LuvNewcastle]

88. Second cousins are probably as close as you need to be if you're procreating.

If not, maybe first cousins would be all right. Cousin marriages happen a lot in other parts of the world, but Americans seem to be more determined to diversify the gene pool. I suppose things could get dicey if first cousins want to procreate, especially if there are some very undesirable traits in the family.

[dipsydoodle]

89. I could date one of your cousins

assuming she was a she.

[raccoon]

90. Third cousin, I think, hardly counts. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

91. I believe the answer is first legally, and second relatively safely, but don't quote me on that.

My belief, although I won't swear to it, is that in the UK (and I think the US) it's legal for first cousins to have sex, but there's a much higher risk of birth defects if they have children than for unrelated parents; for second cousins I think the risk is only slightly higher than normal.

In some communities first cousins marrying is very common, and this does lead to a significantly higher rate of children with things wrong with them.

My ick standard would come of birth defect chance; I think that provided they're not brought up together (which is a whole other kettle of fish) the only argument against cousins dating is the medical one.

[KentuckyWoman]

92. Thomas Jefferson's wife was his 3rd cousin

Eleanor and FDR were 5th cousins
Albert Einstein married his 2nd cousin after his first wife died.
Rudi Guilliani's first wife was his 3rd cousin



As with all things in love, it depends on the couple and on the family.

[MineralMan]

93. I don't even know if I have any third cousins.

In any case, in almost half of the states in the US, first cousins can legally marry, and those marriages are recognized as valid in all 50 states. So, if third cousins want to date, I'm good with it. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. All valid marriages in any state should be completely recognized by every other state.

Frankly, I'm not bothered by first cousins getting married, either. The risk, genetically, is quite small, and a little genetic counseling can tell them if there's any risk at all.

If they fall in love with each other, they fall in love with each other. None of my business.

[LisaL]

94. Yes, the risk of birth defects is only slightly elevated as I understand it.

Of course if they carry any recessive mutations for any serious diseases the risk will go up.

[MineralMan]

97. Well, I really advise some sort of genetic counseling for all couples.

Just an extended family health history is probably enough, if looked at by someone who understand genetic risks.

[hfojvt]

99. interesting list

http://cousincouples.com/?page=states

it is allowed in such redneck states as California, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Illinois and Rhode Island.

In five states (and I thought it was more) it is allowed only if the couple does NOT reproduce.

Also, it looks like only 8 of the 25 states which prohibit cousin marriages, will recognize a cousin marriage from some other state. Although the 17 states probably have no way of finding out that a couple is 1st cousins unless perhaps a vindictive relative reports them or they say something to somebody about it.

[MineralMan]

101. As a matter of practical information, I do not know of a single

case where a first cousin marriage valid in some state has not been accepted in any state. I know of lots of cases where same sex marriages are not accepted. There are likely to be court challenges to that, based on the general acceptance of first cousin marriages. Lots of states have laws on the books that are ignored. This is one of those laws.

My interest in first cousin marriage is purely academic, except that it makes a great precedent for accepting the validity of same sex marriages in states that do not allow them. The test would be whether a state, for example, allows first cousin marriages to declare jointly on state taxes. As far as I know, no state has refused a first cousin couple the right to file jointly.

There is a serious issue here that is likely to be tested soon.

But, I don't care if first cousins marry. They do so in most of the world, and in half of the states in the US. Mazel tov to them all.

[hfojvt]

106. "they do so ... in half the states"

Well, they are ALLOWED to do so in half the states. How many actually do is another question. Even if there are no legal barriers to marrying, there is the practical social barrier of two sets of parents and three sets of grandparents perhaps saying "OH HELL NO" and of friends, siblings, co-workers, teachers, pastors, etc. perhaps asking "are you out of your frigging mind?"

My family history records a story of a young woman who wanted to marry and older man who was deaf. Like a twenty year age difference. The Justice of the Peace refused to do it, according to a newspaper article. But they did marry anyway.

[MineralMan]

109. I have no information on how many first cousin marriages

take place anywhere. In states where it is permitted, there wouldn't be any records of it, so it would be difficult to know. I personally know two couples who are first cousins. One couple is in my own very extended family. Nobody gives a crap that they are married, as far as I am aware.

I may know other couples who are first cousins. It's not really something that comes up in casual conversation. As for myself, I have half a dozen first cousins I have never even met. They lived a long way from my family, and I've just never met them. I have another first cousin I met only once, when we were both teenagers. We were somewhat attracted to each other, I remember, and kissed each other more than a few times when we met at a family reunion. But, it went no farther than that, and was the subject of some pointed jokes aimed at us at the reunion. Nobody really seemed to give a damn about it, though.

So, how many first cousins get married, I do not know. It does happen, though, and is perfectly OK in half the states in this county, and is commonplace in some other parts of the world. It's a matter of indifference to me, except as I described in my previous post. The fact of first cousin marriages figured in the Windsor case in the SCOTUS, though, and in the way I described above.

[JNelson6563]

95. Old school was 7 degrees of separation.

[cthulu2016]

116. And that is why Kevin Bacon is doomed to remain single

(yes, I know he isn't single)

[JNelson6563]

122. lol Touche'!

[BainsBane]

96. There is no reason to date any relative

There are lots of people in the world.

[hfojvt]

98. and all people in the world are related

especially Europeans.

Also, I would wager that in everybody's family tree ten generations back there is at least one set of first cousins marrying in that tree.

If you go back 200 years in history people were not nearly as mobile either. And after 200 years of living in the same village - everybody is related to everybody else, to a degree.

Now the Catholic Church had rules that no marriages were allowed for anyone more closely related than 2nd cousins, although they sometimes bent those rules.

So here are some of my ancestors from Germany. Ambros Honer born 1761 married Maria Schmid born 1761. With only the information that I have - they are related FOUR ways. (by which I mean if I could take their pedigree back another four or five generations there would doubtless be even more connections) They are 3C1R through Michael Bihler. They are 3C1R through Johann Schmid, they are 4C1R through Johann Rees, and they are 4C1R through Bartholomew Hauser (and also through their spouses - Anna Mayer, Maria Link, Anna Hagen and Anna Klonk)

An even better example would be Oskar Lammer born 1882 in Spaichingen married Agatha Weisshaar born 1890 from Seitingen - not even the same village. Their nearest relationship is 2C1R but they are cousins a total of 28 different ways!

Unbeknownst to me at the time, a girl I went to high school with is related to me in 6 ways (the nearest being 8C). Is it somehow NOT okay for 7th cousins to date? Really?

[Iggo]

125. That's my favorite statement of the internet so far today.

"...and all people in the world are related...especially Europeans."

Just thought I'd let you know.

[DebJ]

102. Unless you have had your geneology done, you could marry a distant cousin and never even know

you were cousins. By the time you get to 8th cousins, it seems a humongous amount of us are related.
Like Barack Obama and G W Bush.

[penultimate]

104. I think she meant in a more closer sense... Like, if you share more than five family members on

facebook as friends.

[trackfan]

126. My wife is a distant double cousin to President Obama.

Both her mom and dad are related to Obama; so she's like a 7th cousin on one side, and 8th cousin once removed on the other side.
Of course, she's also related to Dick Cheney...

[penultimate]

103. I think you're right, but it really should be a personal choice if all parties are adults.

In my opinion, I think even siblings should be able to marry if they get 'fixed'. That would get rid of any legitimate argument I could have against it from a legal stand point (welfare of the potential child) Grant you, I'd have my personal opinion on it, but that's irrelevant to them.

[BainsBane]

105. Every society has cultural taboos against insest

for the purposes of the survival of the human species. It's pretty fucking basic.

[penultimate]

108. But if we get rid of the risk by ensuring they don't procreate

I can't find a reason for me to justify denying them from getting married.

Also, wasn't it pretty common in the past for royalty and stuff to marry their own relatives? On game of thrones they are pretty big on that stuff too, and I'm pretty sure that's based on fact.

[LisaL]

113. How do you ensure they don't procreate?

Forced sterilization?
It was common for royalty to marry relatives. Which is presumably why they had some inheritable diseases among them.

[penultimate]

114. Well it wouldn't be forced, as they'd do it on their own accord so they can get married legally

But yeah, that would be the stipulation tied to it. Which someone can then say "but you're essentially forcing them by requiring them to do it if they want to marry", but before we were forcing them to not get married by threat of whatever legal action is taken when that happens...

[LisaL]

117. Should that be done just to cousins or to everyone that carry some mutation?

A lot of people have inheritable diseases. Should they be forbidden from procreation?

[penultimate]

120. That's a good point.

So maybe it should just be legal all together without the sterilization then.

[treestar]

118. But then also preservation of property

and status led people to arrange marriages between relatives.

Eleanor and FDR were fifth cousins, I think. Eleanor even had the same maiden name. No one seems to be grossed out by them. So there's a limit somewhere.

[jwirr]

107. Old tradition says 2nd cousin.

[MineralMan]

111. Cousin Couples Forum

For those who think this is not a real issue, here's a forum where cousin marriage is the only topic, and people are dealing with this as a real, present issue for themselves. For these people, the issue is real and troublesome, and they discuss it at length.

http://www.cousincouples.com/

[treestar]

115. In a lot of states you can still marry a first cousin

A second in just about every state.

Ickily, I'd say how closely together were you raised as kids. I had some second cousins we grew up playing with, calling their grandmother aunt while they called our grandfather uncle.

Others I met only as an adult, maybe having seen them once or twice as kids.

So I'd say it might not be so icky if you didn't meet them until they were both adults or teens.

[MineralMan]

127. Second cousins are fine in all 50 states, I believe.

First cousins are OK in about 25 states, although a couple or three of those have some restrictions.

[RGinNJ]

121. I feel that if your talking about the icky factor

then just the word cousin does it for me.

[doc03]

123. Ask "The Killer" Jerry Lee Lewis he married his 13 year old cousin at 22 then

at 76 he married her brother's x-wife. I think that is Louisiana. In WV they go to their family reunion to get a
wife. Just kidding

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. How many people here know their third cousins?

Not just as a name on a family tree, but to talk to. I think it's pretty rare (here in the UK, anyway), so I'd say the 'ick' factor has disappeared.

[MineralMan]

129. I don't know any of mine. I assume I have some, but

I have no idea who they might be. We're not that into family trees in my family. I know who all of my first cousins are, but beyond that, I'm clueless. My wife's family, though, has cousins of one sort or another everywhere. It's amazing.

[Rochester]

131. First was good enough for Darwin

...it should be good enough for anyone.