Here's The New Ranking Of Top Countries In Reading, Science, And Math {large image}

[xchrom]

http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12

The OECD is out with new global rankings of how students in various countries do in reading, science, and math. Results of the full survey can be found and delved into here.

You can see below how Asian countries are obliterating everyone else in these categories.

The United States, meanwhile, ranks below the OECD average in every category. And as the WSJ notes, the US has slipped in all of the major categories in recent years:

The results from the 2012 Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), which are being released on Tuesday, show that teenagers in the U.S. slipped from 25th to 31st in math since 2009; from 20th to 24th in science; and from 11th to 21st in reading, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, which gathers and analyzes the data in the U.S.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12#ixzz2mPm9nhsF

[hobbit709]

1. We need more testing to raise our scores.

[TBF]

50. Yes! We are not paying the testing

companies nearly enough money!

/also sarcasm


I put the blame squarely on GWB for this mess, but also an assist to Arne Duncan for continuing the nonsense.

[Laelth]

2. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[kelliekat44]

57. Where is Russia? nt

[Berlum]

3. "Hoooray. Our US education plans are working." - RepubliBaggers for Ignorance (R)

[Berlum]

4. .

[sabrina 1]

18. Too bad Dems didn't end Bush's 'education' program when they had the chance rather than

enhancing it.

If we are going to change this then the truth needs to be paramount.

We are a failing nation and even after a decade or more of a failed 'education' program, nothing is being done to change it.

That could lead people to believe that this is a 'success' as far as those who have the power to change things. The reason we elect them is so that they can make things better, not WORSE.

And according to those numbers things have gotten worse since 2009.

[Puzzledtraveller]

80. funny, the selective memories of some here

Just like the NSA defenders, they are either silent or they actual defend the current system because we have the WH.

[Cal33]

7. What you wrote above actually is the way Republicans really want it -- the more

ignorant people there are, the easier it is for Republicans to make them believe
in their propaganda and lies.

Are you worried about the future for our country? Yes, you are. But Corporate
America has never bothered about long-term planning. The only thing they
care about is the immediate buck. They all want to become trillionaires --
RIGHT NOW!!!

[Fumesucker]

9. You might think that but it's not the whole story on the way people actually vote

Until you get to graduate degrees income effects voting patterns among whites more than does education.

Well, except for non HS graduates where the lowest and highest earners are less likely to vote Republican than middle earners.

http://themonkeycage.org/2012/03/23/voting-patterns-of-americas-whites-from-the-masses-to-the-elites/

[Coyotl]

24. You need a 3.65 or better GPA to get into a good grad school. That means intelligence!

Ergo, if you are intelligent enough to get into grad school, you are likely NOT a Republican.

Note also the deviation post-2000 and George W. Bush. A lot of smart people abandoned the Republicans when they had a moron in office

[Fumesucker]

29. Interesting how money still eventually trumps intelligence though

Except for the dumbest, they get dumber to a point and then get smarter with increasing money.

[Cal33]

39. Yes, it does come through that money is the Republicans' god. They worship mammon.

[adirondacker]

76. Prep schools are for Preppies. nt

[BlueJazz]

5. The important thing though, we rate # 1 in the "Countries that think they are the best"

[Cal33]

40. Bitter sarcasm, indeed! But appropriate.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Key Findings for the US:

• Among the 34 OECD countries, the United States performed below average in mathematics in 2012 and is ranked 26th (this is the best estimate, although the rank could be between 23 and 29 due to sampling and measurement error). Performance in reading and science are both close to the OECD average. The United States ranks 17 in reading, (range of ranks: 14 to 20) and 21 in science (range of ranks: 17 to 25). There has been no significant change in these performances over time.
• Mathematics scores for the top-performer, Shanghai-China, indicate a performance that is the equivalent of over two years of formal schooling ahead of those observed in Massachusetts, itself a strong-performing U.S. state.
• While the U.S. spends more per student than most countries, this does not translate into better performance. For example, the Slovak Republic, which spends around USD 53 000 per student, performs at the same level as the United States, which spends over USD 115 000 per student.
• Just over one in four U.S. students do not reach the PISA baseline Level 2 of mathematics proficiency – a higher-than-OECD average proportion and one that hasn’t changed since 2003. At the opposite end of the proficiency scale, the U.S. has a below-average share of top performers.
...
http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/PISA-2012-results-US.pdf

Try some questions: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/

[marmar]

8. We're No. ....... wait. ..........

But hey, at least we've got cool standardized tests and charter schools.

[AngryAmish]

10. Quick everybody, start some new educational fad!

It happens every time something like this comes out. We score what we score. I don't think anyone wants to follow the SE asian model of schooling. I don't even think that model of schooling does a lot of good.

Achievement test scores are highly correlated with IQ even though OECD tests achievement not aptitude. The countries on the top of the list have higher average IQs than the countries on the bottom of this list. When countries are ranked by IQ the lists look similar.

[Rex]

11. I count good!

USAA! USSA! UUSSSAAAAB! WEAR NUMBAR #WON!

[philosslayer]

12. Keep cutting education budgets

Keep undercutting public education. Keep growing class size. See what you get?

[FarCenter]

13. Do Finns in MN, WI, MI do as well as Finns in Finland? Do Koreans in NJ do as well as in Korea?

Do Mexicans in LA do as well as Mexicans in Mexico?

[DanTex]

14. Although I already new about this, seeing the charts like that is depressing.

[treestar]

15. Do we have to be number one on everything?

Those are generally first world countries. So they have higher average math scores in some other countries. Good for them.

Generally we find contempt for "USA number one!" type mentality, yet this seem to be suggesting that it's not enough unless we are number one at everything.

[sabrina 1]

20. Well we don't have to worry about it anymore. If our education system on which we spend more

money than most other nations, now a lot of it going into private hands, fails we will not be #1 in anything.

We ARE #1 in spending the most money in the history of the world and currently more than all other nations combined, on the MILITARY.

Not to mention that the failure of our education system is not a failure, it is a victory for those who implemented it with the goal of funneling education funds into private Corps. That is a victory for Predatory Capitalists.

You have to admire them, the way they are able to fool people using team politics to do so. And the more ignorant the public remains, the easier it is for them to do this.

So it's not all bad news, at least for the 1%.

[Cal33]

42. We are definitely Number One in one thing -- our military. We may also be the

wealthiest nation in the world, because we are a large nation. But on a
per capita basis, we are not Number One.

[treestar]

43. So we don't have to be number one

As for the military, it is true, and it gives us a lot of power in the world. At what price, is a different question.

[Cal33]

90. What Eisenhower warned us about more than 50 years ago, "Beware the Military-Industrial Complex" --

this is it. We are living it.

[CorrectOfCenter]

16. Common Core will start to turn this around.

Give it time.

[winter is coming]

45. Doubtful. It's more likely to end up as a new wrapper on the NCLB testing insanity. n/t

[cthulu2016]

17. Amazing what you can do when you throw the dumb kids out of school

Does anyone believe that Chinese testing is as universal as American testing?

My impression is that it is not.

[FarCenter]

21. Comparisons Between Mathematics Education in China and the United States

Liping Ma began the workshop with a general comparison of mathematics education in China and the United States. Ma taught elementary school for 7 years in China before earning a master’s degree in teacher education at East China Normal University and a doctorate from Stanford University. Drawing on her knowledge and experience in both countries, she presented her assessment of similarities and differences in the two systems. This chapter summarizes her remarks as well as selected comments from others.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12874&page=1

Testing in China is focused on the tests given at the end of middle school and high school that dictate entrance into high schools and colleges, respectively. In addition, at the local district or city level there is a universal final exam for mathematics given at the end of each academic year that is voluntary, though most schools participate. Testing, which has been used for thousands of years in China for government hiring, is viewed as less critical in China than in other countries such as the United States. The prevailing view is that if students work hard they all have the potential to do well on tests. An important factor in judging teachers has been the success of their students on high school and college entrance exams, but more recently and in the larger cities, other aspects of teacher performance are being assessed. For example, peer evaluations and student evaluations are becoming more important.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12874&page=7

[liberal_at_heart]

91. That Race to the Top is really working. Just the name of the program is revolting.

Let's not give a crap what happens to all of our students, just the ones who can get to the top the fastest and help improve our statistics.

[Generic Other]

19. Perhaps our poor scores reflect our poor values?

What do we offer kids who excel at math and science? Limited opportunity to become doctors or scientists using their skills to make life better on planet earth. Plenty of opportunity to work for the military industrial complex, however.

I made the decision early in my life not to buy into that crap. I focused on the arts, and I have been pretty damn successful on my own terms. Screw the mold. I made my own model.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. You know who else needs math skills and yes science?

The trades.

This answer usually shocks people.

What else? Navigation for the merchant marine, plenty of math in shooting land marks. And it does not mean with a gun.

We are not just shooting ourselves in advanced degrees, which medicine is. We are shooting ourselves in the foot in things like multiple trades.

Just saying.

And yes, my degrees are in the arts.

We need to stop it with this anti intellectualism that is pervasive to the culture and need to start investing, again mind you, in education.

[Generic Other]

65. Anti-intellectualism?

The lack of respect for those who have other values is the thing that bothers me. I have never in my adult life needed to know any of the advanced math I was forced to take in school. Irrelevant to my life. The science knowledge I am grateful for because it is interesting.

I am unimpressed by the constant harping on math and science in America. I do not want to work for weapons manufacturers, big pharma, a medical profession focused on bankrupting people, or any of the myriad of careers open to me based on boring myself shitless learning something I have no aptitude for. Sorry if that is anti-intellectual to you. It is called specialization to me. And making a decision based on what is best for me not a phony chart of doctored statistics that make American students feel worthless when in fact the numbers of high achievers has not declined at all. Ours is the only country that makes every student test even those with no mental capacity to even comprehend the content they are being tested for. Dishonest to call these statistics realistic.

As for my anti-intellectualism, my grad school GREs placed me in the 98th percentile. In spite of my lack of interest in these disciplines.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. This is an American cultural trade

Not you personally. Not all of the US but a dominant trait in at least three cultural regions.

Look, I used to think physics was well stupid. Why do I need to do this shitty pulley experiment? (That was first grade junior high). Same goes for algebra.

Fast forwards a few years setting up a pulley system to pull somebody up from a deep canyon. After doing the math, that same silly formula I decided was useless at 11, we decided to play it safe and take five more minutes to set a 4:1 advantage system instead of a 3:1 system. It had a margin of safety for me, the patient and the second medic to rappel down the mountain, and the gear to go with us. You will never believe how heavy those stokes baskets are.

I find myself using that algebra regularly, which some idiots want to remove from junior high as too difficult for little Johnny to do. As to the pre calc, I hated it. I don't use it, I don't resent it. It's part of that education, even if it's all Greek to me.

[Generic Other]

84. They are dishonest when they denigrate the achievements of American students

They are no different than their counterparts in other countries. But graphs like this suggest they are somehow inferior to students in other countries. Many of these countries test selectively, spend more money on educating their citizens, the parents push harder. etc etc.

And for all the complaining, American students are still earning top scores on SATs, still graduating with honors at competitive universities, still achieving in their fields of study, earning far more PhDs than in the past, a million new college grads per year. But the for-profit corporate raiders have done everything they could to suggest otherwise and only so they can destroy or siphon off the money dedicated to public education.

If we want kids to excel in academics we need to celebrate their achievements like we do with athletes. We need to quit labeling them as failures. Legislators should be forced by law to take the high stakes tests they want students to pass. Let them be removed from public office if they fail to score high enough. Compare their scores to the kids' scores. Anyone wanna bet comparing their scores to the kids would be an eye opener? Easy for adults to act like they would do so much better than the kids. Funny how all the ones clamoring for high stakes testing have not proven they are capable of passing the very tests they promote. I would love to see all the reformers take the tests. Let us put their scores up against the scores of those they berate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. My arguments against this test is not what you wrote.

We as a country do not test by region. We report in averages, national averages. China does test by region if we added results from Beijing, let alone rural areas...it would not be pretty.

That said, you summarized anti intellectualism. We think sports figures are the greatest, but how do we refer to top students? Geeks, nerds.

What happens to those students by the in crowd in the jock culture? Bullying. That is what I mean by anti intellectualism. And it gets worst as we move through life in the culture. How bad it gets, it does vary by cultural regions. There are areas of the country, hell my county, where saying you got an MA is not an asset.

[greatlaurel]

22. Diane Ravitch has some posts about the PISA on her blog

Reading her blog is well worth everyone's time. She does an amazing job keeping up with current education issues.

Here is a link to her post about the PISA scores http://dianeravitch.net/2013/12/02/young-zhao-on-finlands-decline-on-pisa-and-east-asian-success/

She links to an article by Yong Zhao http://zhaolearning.com/2013/12/02/reading-the-pisa-tea-leaves-who-is-responsible-for-finland%E2%80%99s-decline-and-the-asian-magic/

A quote from his article"While the East Asian systems may enjoy being at the top of international tests, they are not happy at all with the outcomes of their education. They have recognized the damages of their education for a long time and have taken actions to reform their systems. Recently, the Chinese government again issued orders to lesson student academic burden by reducing standardized tests and written homework in primary schools."

We really need to pay attention to these issues. Yong Zhao emphatically states the Finnish education system is still the superior education system in the world.

Please note that Yong Zhao also states that tens of thousands of Chinese and Korean parents still send their children to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia for educations as our systems are still able to educate children to think. The Global Education Reform Movement is meant to make children into "compliant and homogenous test takers". They are not sending them here to attend the failing charter schools.

[duffyduff]

26. The demographics are different, too, in these countries.

All of these international "studies" do is further neoliberal propaganda that we need to abolish public education in the United States.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. No, the OECD study has never said that.

In fact, most of the countries in that list have a public education system, which is what is being tested.

[MissB]

23. I am not shocked. At all.

I have marvelously successful high school students. My (hs) sophomore kid is finishing up multivariate calculus this term and will be taking differential equations next term. The other kid (hs freshman) is "only" in pre-calculus this year, so he won't be taking differential equations until his junior year. They are both fabulous writers as well as strong science students. And artists, musicians and athletes.

Oldest kid has only taken a few standardized tests so far - explore (pre-ACT). Perfect score. SAT Math 2? Perfect score. AP Calc AB? Perfect score. Is he a genius? Heck no.

And our family's SES would be considered high, not to mention we live in a district with the smallest class sizes and the highest number of teachers with masters degrees.

Cure poverty. That'll raise our test scores. So will viewing public school teachers as something better than pond scum. Our country hates public employees and poor people. Fix that first. Test scores will rise.

[duffyduff]

25. What's with publishing neoliberal propaganda?

Our country does just fine against other countries on the education front, but the privatizers want to DESTROY the system of public education by creating a false crisis such as manipulated statistics as it is here.

I am utterly ashamed anybody on this board believes that crap.

Diane Ravitch has destroyed these so-called studies in her new book.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Did you miss the latest kerfunkle in Texas involving creation science?

Ravich might have "destroyed" those studies, but fact remains we do not have the best educational system in the world. We used to. But we no longer do. Part of it lies with blaming teachers, a facile answer. Part of it lies in testing, again not the full answer. Part of it lies in the deep drop in state investment in it starting in Pre-K all the way to post docs. And part of it lies in how much value we place in education as a society. The last one is key.

I say it having a window at two systems by the way. As well as actual personal experience in two national systems. We have a top notch college system, if you can afford it, kind of like medicine, funny that! As to privatizing it, well easy peachy as long as we as a society simply do not think it's that important. Change that core value, by the way it is a core value in the North East, not a coincidence some of our top systems are there, and you will change the world.

The error, one of many, is that the OECD should compare other systems to regions in the US. Go ahead and compare outcomes between oh Mississippi and Rhode Island. It should not be too shocking to find that Rhode Island, which as a core value has valued education since the Colonial period, will do much better than a state that has not.

But to try to say we have a top rated system and dismiss this is to hide your head, firmly mind you, in the sand. Anti intellectualism, a core value of several regions in the US, not just the South, is part of the problem.

[Paladin]

27. China at the top---and look who has a rocket headed to the moon. (nt)

[Comrade Grumpy]

28. The American century was nice while it lasted. n/t

[eppur_se_muova]

30. Our kids are #1 in filling in little ovals with no. 2 pencils.

What else really matters ?

[xchrom]

34. indeed. nt

[KamaAina]

31. Rarely is the question asked, "Is our children learning?"

[Sheepshank]

32. no fair testing mostly creationists and baggers

.......I hate the idea that we seem *that* stupid.

[840high]

33. Yuck. k/r

[malaise]

35. WHen you have an entire political party and many of the private sector special interests

who finance those dumb ReTHUGs publicly glorifying ignorance and anti-scientific mumbo jumbo and varieties of bullshit, WTF should we expect?

When you have an entire political party blaming teachers for problems in schools when it is their financial cuts to education that have created this mess and the same morons continue to diss teachers up and down the fugging airways and TV, what do you expect?

When you have a fugging political party demanding creationism at the expense of evolution, why are we surprised?

Reminds me of a Tee shirt I was given two decades ago

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance".

[LittleBlue]

36. Might as well learn Mandarin

Look at Shanghai annihilating everyone.

Top 4 places for math are all ethnic Chinese.

(Go Japan!)

[ieoeja]

37. Why does China keep stealing our intellectual property, etc?

I mean, according to the standardized tests, they are the smartest people in the world. They should be kicking our asses without having to steal from us.

Of course, it could mean these tests, which the United States has never, ever, not since testing first began came even close to the top on anything ... is meaningless?


And so, once again, I will share the Richard Feynmann Brazil story.... Invited to Brazil the head of the computer staff at Los Alamos was surprised to discover their high school students using physics books that Americans did not encounter until college. And scoring just as well on the standard tests. "Why," he asked himself, "are there so few Brazilian physicists of note?"

He wrote new tests which he gave to all the students. The American college kids did just as well on the new tests as they had the standard ones. Brazilian students, both high schoolers and in college, largely failed.

Interviewing teachers in Brazil, he learned that they were graded on the performance of their students in the tests. Instead of attempting to teach the underlying physics, they had to teach them how to solve the specific problems that would be tested, or they might lose their jobs. The Americans, having learned the physics, could work out the correct solution to new problems. Feynmann noted that the students in Brazil during their tests often complained that "this was not what we were taught".


We could theorize all day why judging teachers on the results of their students taking tests fails miserably. But it doesn't really matter why. It's been tried. It fails.

Disclaimer: "fails" assumes the measure of success is learning how to solve problems and not learning how to follow orders. You might note that the highest scores on these tests also come from authoritarian countries where following orders might be the actual goal. Given that standardized testing is a Republican dream, and Republicans are highly authoritarian, that may very well be their goal as well. They don't want innovative people coming out of public education. They want workers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Because we make it damn easy in the name of the all mighty profit

By the way, which two countries have a vibrant space program right at the moment? Free hint, not Russia or the US. One is in that list though, the other does not make it to OECD status.

[ieoeja]

49. China and India. Because they have chosen to spend their money on it.

Not because they are so much smarter than we.

And I was surprised not to see India in OEDC status. They certainly have a lot of industry.


On edit: there are considerably more than just two. China and India are looking to go to the moon while the United States is working on a manned mission to Mars. While Russia and the US are still going strong with the International Space Station.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Key words, they have chosen to spend money on it

They have also chosen to spend money in elite education, while we cut back in the space program and state investment in universities.

They are not more intelligent, they are just spending quid like we used to, after Sputnik.

[wickerwoman]

92. Cheating on tests is absolutely rampant in China and taken for granted.

I used to teach English there and one of the lessons was on cheating. I taught that lesson to at least 600 different Chinese students and never had a single one suggest that they thought cheating was morally wrong or unfair to other people. Most of them started gleefully sharing their best techniques.

So not saying that Chinese kids don't benefit from a culture and parents that stress education to an insane degree. But I would also take any test results coming out of Shanghai with a massive grain of salt.

There's also a big difference between memorizing heaps of math and being able to apply in to real situations (which is a difficult skill to test). One complaint I used to hear from engineering professors when I taught in the US was that they had lots of overseas students who know tons of formulas but absolutely collapse if you ask them to design something quite simple.

[indepat]

38. Looks like some of our childs is not keeping pace with the competition.

Keeping creationism out of our text books is probably the culprit.

[marshall]

41. This only looks at part of the picture, what about quality of life?

Compare to Business Insider's ranking of quality of life: http://www.businessinsider.com/top-countries-on-oecd-better-life-index-2013-5

China is great at educating its population in these three areas, just as the Soviet system created top ranking athletes. But at what cost?

[n2doc]

44. Wonder what the percentage tested in each country is?

Tom Loveless, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, cautions about reading too much into the results from Shanghai, which also dominated the test in 2009. The students tested are children of the elite. They are the ones allowed to attend municipal schools because of restrictions such as those that keep many migrant children out, he said.

“The Shanghai scores frankly to me are difficult to interpret,” Loveless said. “They are almost meaningless.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/24155228-418/asian-nations-dominate-international-test.html


The Chinese education system, too, features ethnic and class inequities. But even more so than in the United States, geography and birthplace equal educational destiny. As Sarah Butrymowicz of The Hechinger Report documented in a recent article, millions of schoolchildren have migrated to cities in recent years with their job-hunting parents. Once there, they often find themselves ineligible to attend government-run schools, particularly the best ones. An unknown number wind up in sub-par, pseudo-private schools catering to the migrant population.

Henan Chang, an assistant professor in Loyola University Chicago’s School of Education who has studied the outcomes of migrant schoolchildren in Kunming, said most of them “have no interaction whatsoever with the local residents. They live in their own bubbles. Their playmates, their schoolmates—they’re all migrants themselves.”

Butrymowicz notes that these disparities tainted China’s recent domineering performance on international assessments in reading, math and science because many public schools do not admit migrant students. When Shanghai 15-year-olds outperformed the rest of the world in 2010, observers wondered if their success stemmed at least in part from exclusionary, segregationist practices. After I told a friend of mine who grew up in China about the international rankings, he quipped that public-school students in Shanghai are comparable to private-school students on Manhattan’s Upper East Side in terms of their wealth and privilege. Shaking his head, he noted that no one would take Dalton or Brearley—two of the Big Apple’s most elite private schools—as representative of the whole United States.

http://hechingerreport.org/content/what-the-u-s-and-chinese-school-systems-have-in-common-inequality-segregation_7715/

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Why they should be testing regions in the US.

The Chinese test is mostly done in the very affluent region of Shanghai. There is a reason the Government does not allow this in even Beijing, let alone rural areas. We let both rural and urban areas play. It is a policy decision, one placing the test at some, mind you some, less value.

As to testing to the test, increasingly American kids are angry when something is not in the test.

[Democracyinkind]

52. Some of these replies schock me.

In what way has PISA anything to do with privatization?

[NoOneMan]

53. Who fuckn cares? When are they going to start ranking kids health and happiness?

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Well, when those kids can only ask as adults "would you like fries with that?"

Not because they are dumb, but because they lack the tools for trade/university work, and national economic competitiveness continues to erode, you might start to care.

It is how we teach those kids that should matter, and where current philosophy is failing. But I guess knowing how to read and write, and do numbers are not that important.

[NoOneMan]

62. If you want kids to learn trades, they should be instead of taking stupid tests

And learning to take tests. Where anyone ranks on this piece of shit has no bearing whatsoever on their ability to learn plumbing, electrical, construction, etc.

national economic competitiveness continues to erode, you might start to care.

As a bit of a protectionist, I don't give a fuck. Economic competitiveness only matters insofar as a government subjects its people to compete globally without protections. I do not accept that context, nor prioritize the ability to compete whatsoever with the world (or even the town down the street). I think we are approaching a new age where we should shift focus on regional resilience instead of global trade, and ensuring that regions have autonomy and independence, with the ability to meet their own needs (even if this means forfeiting a trade advantage).

Maximizing our ability to produce and trade goods globally does not make us happier, nor add to the human experience one iota. It just makes us cogs in the fuckn machine. Let's make less shit and make more of it locally. Lets stop competing and cut back the work week. Instead, we need to compete to be happier, and you don't get that slaving 14 hours a day.

It is how we teach those kids that should matter, and where current philosophy is failing.

I don't think that the philosophy of how to produce humans that perpetually increase the velocity of energy is philosophy at all. I think the problem is we are lacking philosophy. At this point its religion. We must make more, consume more, do more, be more, think more, all because we believe that more growth and progress and development is an a priori good and benefit to mankind on our pathway to transcendence from our current human condition (contrary to all evidence otherwise that is scientifically provable).

But I guess knowing how to read and write, and do numbers are not that important

When you say things like "important", you should mention the context you are speaking from. Its immensely important if you want humans to build shit until the entire biosphere collapses in the great name of progress. It means dick in the context of aggregate health and human happiness (which we have no true idea if it wasn't higher 10K years ago). If you do not mention a context, it is likely because you cannot view reality apart from your arbitrary worldview & religion of economic and human progress (if one perceives a relative context as universal, there is no alternative worth mentioning).

I'm so tired of these fucking tests suggesting we need to shove more information and tests and learning at our children so they can produce more garbage as adults. We need to shove more love and philosophy at them so they can produce more happiness and health.

Children are not machines to be programmed. They are not here to produce your utopia. We are here to produce one for them. We are failing and it has nothing to do with us not teaching them enough of the same shit (we aren't teaching them the right shit)

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Tell you what, pull all kids from school right now.

[NoOneMan]

66. There is plenty you can teach a child in school

But it doesn't all have to be about how to make them consume more coal and oil and produce more plastic shit than the Chinese when they grow up.


How about organic gardening, hydroponics and food security? Can you teach that in school? How about wildlife management and environmental restoration? How about framing, welding and ICE classes? How do those skills rank in that stupid fucking test?

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Oh you are talking trades that need math (gasp) and gardening

That needs oh my god some reading? And how do you know this is not happening? Hell, my state is talking increasing trade training again, and gardening is being taught in my town, started by the First Lady in fact.

Look, we might agree that teaching to the test is stupid, there are innumerable reasons for that. But you want to stop consumerism among grade school students? Start by turning the idiot box off. As to globalization, good luck in that crusade Don Quixote, outside of a population crash/ technology crash it ain't happening. I travel outside the US, and best buy is pervasive in Mexico City, and the converse adds as well as the insert gadget here adds are even more pervasive than here.

Yup, once again.

[NoOneMan]

69. No, you don't need to be Einstein to learn to weld or Shakespeare to garden

Some of these things are simply taught via doing and discussion.

As to globalization, good luck in that crusade Don Quixote, outside of a population crash/ technology crash it ain't happening.

Globalization is killing the globe and will lead to an inevitable population crash. Of course I want to stop it. If you dismiss saving humanity (and all other species) from an impending climate catastrophe by reorganizing how we work and trade and organize our economy, I have to flippantly dismiss your worry over our kids not being taught to be good enough cogs in the destructive machine.

We are in different worlds, you and I. You want to save the machine, and have your country at the steering wheel. I want to promote a healthy world, and have healthy kids. I feel the two goals are mutually exclusive so I have to agree to disagree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You need math to weld

And you need Shakespeare to appreciate English as it has developed across the centuries, add Chaucer and Milton while you are at it. Thanks about exhibit A on anti intellectualism.

[NoOneMan]

72. Anti globalism/anti consumption/anti over-production is not anti intellectualism

Especially in the midst of a climate catastrophe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Saying that kids should not study Shakespeare

Is anti intellectualism. Saying they should not study math is anti intellectualism. Thinking they should not do basic science and math is, you might want to dress it in whatever colors you chose. It is what it is.

By the way, understanding ecology requires large amounts of math, such as advanced statistics, chemistry and biology, as well as physics.

[NoOneMan]

75. And suggesting I said that is a straw man logical fallacy

I never said a kid should not study English or Math. I have expressed the opinion that we should not be concerned with them studying these subjects so rigorously that they meet the arbitrary goal of being first in the world over the largest producer of plastic shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Tell me exactly how doing calculus equals consumerism

I want you to tell me how exactly is rigging a pulley system in physics lab equals consumerism? For that matter, I want you to explain to me how reading and writing equal it?

I will be waiting, cause that's the problem, of course unless a pencil and a sheet of paper or a book are part of it. Then we agree and we should turn the whole global order off and go back to hunting and gathering and forget about anything more advanced than herbs for medical care. Granted, many meds come from them, but we stopped those medicinal gardens a few years back.

Yup, guaranteed, the population collapse.

On the bright side, there has to be one, the damage we are doing to the ecology will slow down.

[NoOneMan]

78. Are you doing it to be the smartest and best economy? Then it will manifest as such

It also takes class time away from other subjects like organic gardening, especially for the kids that do not need to learn calculus. And yes, not every kid does

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Given that most of those kids, since likely mom and dad are not on the farm,

Will need a college degree....

http://organic.about.com/od/educationtraining/tp/10-U-S-Colleges-That-Offer-Organic-Agricultural-Programs.htm

I would not bet on them not needing calc and statistics, just look at UC Davis's for example, emphasis. Ecology needs both.

Next.

Now if you are talking of trade schools, even those are starting to require some advanced math.

[NoOneMan]

81. All I'm here is more, more, more from you.

Humans have done organic gardening and forest management for thousands of years without college/

Now if you are talking of trade schools, even those are starting to require some advanced math.

We've done trades fine in the past with limited math. Most old-timer builders all carry around a universal green pocketbook with trigonometry look up tables, as well as span length and load ratings (fits in any pocket). We don't need to teach builders and welders calculus, and if we do, they don't need to be better at it than the Chinese.

No, I reject your more, more, more philosophy. We're in deep shit from doing that for too long. We need less. We need quality. We need to restructure the entire human economy. Doing this doesn't start by being number in the ability to make plastic shit

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Humans used to learn it from mom and dad

Care to tell me how many Americans live on the farm these days?

And you can reject whatever you want. I suggest you start by turning your computer off, finding a nice home in the forest, turning your drivers license in, and living a life away from all this shit. That is if you actually want to live to the logical end of your philosophy.

Oh and you should read as to the causes to the dust bowl and the idiots with Ph Ds who found the solutions.

[NoOneMan]

83. Buy me a house in the woods and I will

Before fully pursuing an ad hominem tu quoque, do know I reject your logical fallacies as well in whole.

But what I do or do not do in terms of contributing to consumption, it will not stop what you and the rest of the world will do, which is impacting and upsetting the entire ecological system. It would be far more effective to try and change humans to act more in harmony with the environment than to run from civilization as it exists. Of course, if one finds that civilization will likely not change drastically enough to make a difference, that point becomes moot as well.

And yes, not enough humans live on a farm these days. More should. There should be more farms, and not the corporate ones. There should be community farms everywhere, providing local food security and resilience. This should be a higher priority than keeping up with the Chinese while they burn coal to make us our latest and greatest tech shit. And if its a priority, the state should take responsibility for teaching the children and instituting the policies the parents cannot

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. It is you who needs to do that, not me.

But do start by getting off the web, I mean permanently. Be sure to recycle that computer, cell phone, et al though. Rare metals are becoming even more rare.

And education is not, never has been, about keeping up with the Chinese. If that was the case, a much lower percentage of the US population would live in cities, have access to health care, or have any degree of even the most basic of education. Nor would our average family size be 2.2 children. But, I am proof positive you missed that. This is the fallacy you are presenting.

I am dead serious, you are so committed to that ludite life style, turn off your computer and never turn it back on. Find a nice place in the woods, sell all you have and move there. Don't forget the solar cell, oh never mind, that burns fuel in the production process. I guess a human powered bicycle generator should work. It is less energy intensive, though not quite neutral.

For the record I have done work in a farm, and I can tell you this, it is far from romantic. You seem to think we need to go back at least 300 years tech wise, I guarantee a population crash the likes we have not seen since at least the Black Death.

We are headed for one, likely, but I prefer to work in reality, and that includes people with training in the sciences, which you seem to think are not necessary, to at least try to soften the blow. We also need politicians not married to industry willing to listen to these people who have been screaming about the damage we are doing, and going no to a certain pipeline, for example. Oh that guy has a PhD so please do ignore him and 350.org. He's got the cuties since he can do advanced differential equations, and understands physics as it relates to weather systems and climate change.

I do not see you as an ally. I see you as a quaint curiosity who is rejecting, but not really since it is not that convenient, modern life. You are blaming education in things like trigonometry and calc, and statistics and English lit for consumerism, which is a strange argument. One man bears most of the blame for the modern system by the way, Mr. Barnays himself. There was no statistics involved in this, just manipulation of the highest order of the human psyche, which has been refined since he walked the Earth.

But your argument that schools lead to crass consumption and we should stop doing that is beyond strange. With that, have a good day.

[NoOneMan]

88. Ok, so go ahead and run with the fallacy...

Honestly, I'd love to do nothing but farm (as I grew up doing), but I unfortunately would have to purchase land, which means I have to accumulate capital, which means I have to produce goods or services the machine values, which means I have to increase the velocity of energy in the system to accumulate surplus potential to commend the required energy. Otherwise, I could borrow the capital, and then farm commercially by generating enough surplus to pay it back plus ridiculous amounts of interest. Both approaches are directly contradictory to the stated objective. Yes, I didn't choose to be born into this world. Normally that leads humans to advocate change.

You seem to think we need to go back at least 300 years tech wise

Don't tell me what I seem to think, and then argue against it. That's anti-intellectual.

and that includes people with training in the sciences, which you seem to think are not necessar

Really? Again?

I do not see you as an ally.

Good. I don't want to ally with the old world and the old way of thinking that got my generation into this mess that we have to figure a way out of (or die). We need new paradigms, not the same old tired political cliches of the 20th century. Those are growing increasingly irrelevant.

You are blaming education in things like trigonometry and calc, and statistics and English lit for consumerism, which is a strange argument

Have you ever taken a university course in logic and fallacies? IOW, are you doing this on purpose to strengthen a weak argument, or do you really not know any better?

I've clarified that it isn't the education of these subjects in itself that is problematic, but it is the rigorous immersion--to the point other important skills are not taught--with the stated end goal to produce the world's greatest workers. That has objectively manifested abroad into societies that produce as much as they study, without regard for the consequences of such production (nor the social consequences of turning children into producing machines). And as long as we use graphs to measure where we stand and set arbitrary goals to be "better" (compared to the world), this is exactly what we are all doing: teaching skills the world's economic machine values to create the most valued students (future workers).

We don't have to be first in everything. And if we must be first in anything, health and happiness should be the priority, as those are basic human needs.

But your argument that schools lead to crass consumption and we should stop doing that is beyond strange

Wow. Let me know when its time to set the strawman ablaze. Perhaps you could use a class or two

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. You are not just funny, but down right hilarious

here... you need more.



My bad, here are the tools

[enlightenment]

55. A friend of mine posted a link to some of the

maths tests questions - one from each "level" (there are 6 levels in the test).

I am definitely not a maths person and I was frankly appalled at the simplicity of the questions. If the sample is all that is expected of 15 year olds, we're doomed.

Here is the link; the key findings section offers some interesting information.

http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/

Editing: apologies to muriel upthread, who already posted this link!

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Why we should worry

Those are junior high school to grade school in a few cases material.

[enlightenment]

61. I think the bigger issue may be reading comprehension, frankly.

A colleague of mine recently shared an email she received from a student who was failing her undergrad Literature course. The student was incensed that she was marked down on her test because she failed to write a formal essay (instead turning in something more bullet points). Her argument - which was filled with grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors - revolved around a single word in the essay question: postulate.

Apparently, the student firmly believed, after reading dictionary entries for the word, that "postulate" means "give an informal opinion". She was so convinced of this that she copy/pasted two separate dictionary entries.

The only think we can figure is that she doesn't have enough of a grasp of basic vocabulary to understand the dictionary definitions.

This is a university student (not community college or high school) - and her level of comprehension is frustratingly common. I don't see how we can expect students to grasp "word problems" in maths if they can't understand a complex sentence. I think we need to back up and realize that reading really is fundamental.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Agreed

As a GTA I had a similar experience two decades ago. It did not have to do strictly with reading comp, but test taking skills. The test was a pick two questions out of a three possible essay question. The kid only answered one question, extensively and in depth.

We, the instructor and I, spent an hour explaining to her why she needed to answer two out of three questions. She was an A student in HS. So yes, this was a very direct hit to her already poor self esteem. She ended up dropping out of college, far from the intent. We learned later that this A student was barely scratching a C- in her first college semester. She failed a couple courses, in fact. The school district she came from led to that result regularly.

I have always wondered what happened to her? She was hardly ready for college work.

My husband saw that at the JC as well recently, kids barely ready for it.

[enlightenment]

68. Given how many students come out of HS unprepared

I think we need to use the freshman year to really focus on getting them up to speed. Instead of allowing them to choose their courses the first year, they should have a set program of the core classes - English comp, college maths, critical thinking, study skills.

These are classes they already take as GE requirements, so even those who are ready for college level work will benefit by taking the classes when they should be taken - before they move on to more rigorous work. There are already so many kids in remedial English and maths it's pathetic. And schools still allow them to take other classes. We had to fight tooth and nail to get a basic pre-req of English comp for our survey history classes; the administration couldn't seem to grasp that students write - a great deal - in these classes.

It's nuts.

I feel sorry for the unprepared students, but the system is stacked against them. I also feel a bit sorry for the Asian students who are sent here to get US degrees and discover that their English isn't close to adequate and that plagiarism is unacceptable. Many sincerely don't understand that last one (of course the same can be said for many kids who came up through the US system . . .)

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Agreed.

What galls me, and this is my experience. I always had trouble with math, it's disgraphia, these days I know this. I repeated HS in the first three semesters at least. That is how far ahead we were coming from Mexican private HS. My sister validated her HS physics, which used a 201 textbook.

Chem 101 used the same damn text book we used in HS and JH. It has to do with core curriculums that kids are required to take by both the education dept and the national university. If we could do it, most American kids should as well. There are deep cultural reasons why this has yet to happen in the states, though Common Core seems to be a good first step. Admittedly many parents are against it and it will take five more years for this to prove either another disaster or a success story. That is the problem.

[4Q2u2]

56. Saw on the local News

Massachusetts was ranked in the top ten in the world in all three categories. Connecticut did very well also. States that the WSJ is not big fans of. NOT business friendly in their eyes.

Well we are not in it for the business, we are in it for our kids.

http://www.wbur.org/2013/12/03/massachusetts-pisa-test-results

http://www.wickedlocal.com/wareham/topstories/x2132762066/Mass-students-near-top-on-international-test-rankings

[Jefferson23]

86. We can change this, dramatically..but only if we have the leadership out in front to do so.

K&R