I'm a white person who grew up with significant disadvantages, however if I were black...

[CreekDog]

30 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	My circumstances would have been even more difficult to overcome, overall.
	28 (93%)
	My circumstances would have been no different to overcome, overall.
	0 (0%)
	My circumstances would have been easier to overcome, overall.
	2 (7%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[badtoworse]

1. With respect, this poll is too vague and leaves much open to speculation.

There is no question that, on average, black people have a tougher time than white people. Beyond that, every case is different. I think you should be more specific as to circumstances.

[MissMillie]

3. I agree

And I think it could take the discussion of race in a weird direction.

I know for one thing, I don't walk around considering that my life circumstances would have been harder/easier to overcome if I had been a man.

[CreekDog]

4. Oh please. Get over yourself

Seriously. It's a question about whether being black makes it harder, no harder or easier for you in this country --IN GENERAL.

Stop acting like if your answer doesn't apply to 100% of all situations that you'll get trampled by a Rhino.

[badtoworse]

7. I thought I said that in my post

Do you really need to poll the question of whether it's tougher being black than white? Would anyone seriously argue that it is isn't?

[CreekDog]

8. yes, they would

most wouldn't thank goodness. but i think you haven't been paying attention.

not to mention that when most of DU answers one way, it sends a message to those who have antiquated beliefs.

[badtoworse]

9. I'll think of you when I see that argument being made here

My guess is that anyone doing so would likely not stay long.

[hfojvt]

63. I would

because I think it is too generic.

"It's tougher being black than white" seems false to me in the same way that "W is greater than B" seems false to me IF I can easily find examples where B is greater than W. And not just one or two examples - multiple millions of them.

So going back to black and white. Would you, and most DUers agree that "It's tougher being poor than being rich"?

So now I pull out the census of wealth for 2011 where I find that a whopping 3.2 million black households have more than $250,000 in wealth. And I also find that there are 16.9 million white non hispanic households with less than $5,000 in wealth.

True or false? The statement "It is tougher being black than white" means that those 3.2 million blacks have it tougher than those 16.9 million whites. That somehow W (with less than $5,000 in wealth) is greater than B (with more than $250,000 in wealth).

If false, then how?

One might object and say "I am only comparing blacks and whites with the SAME income/wealth when I make that statement about race. So don't compare yourself to Tiger Woods or Oprah, look at the guy down the street. Look at the fact that 48% of black households have less than $5,000 in wealth compared to only 20.5% of WNH households. Right THERE is your white privilege (dammit)!"

Okay, let me try a crude analogy. Imagine that 20.5% of white people are living 50 feet underground, in a big hole where other people dump their excrement. (being poor means life deals you a LOT of crap) and that 48% of black people are down in this hole too. (By the way that means that the population of the hole is STILL 70% WHITE). Then you are asking that person in the hole to just IGNORE, to pay no attention to, all those people NOT living in the hole. Just look around and bask in the fact that you are lord of the hole. What a privilege THAT is.

Bring in the numbers again. You are then asking these white people who are poor to just ignore the 73 million people (60% of the US population) who are substantially better off than they are to show that "white privilege" exists. Yep, they are privileged if you ignore 60% of the country and just look at their fellow poor people. Or maybe look at all the rich white guys in Congress and corporate board rooms (like their whiteness trickles down to other white people).

I don't see how a statement can be true, if proving it requires you to ignore 60% of the data.

[badtoworse]

132. I think you are over-analyzing this

My reasoning is simple. Let's say you had two people, one black and one white, in difficult economic circumstances: Minimum wage job, few marketable skills and minimum assets. Both will face the same substantial obstacles in trying to work their way out of economic hardship. The black person will also have to deam with the institutional racism that exists in the country today, so he will have an additional obstacle to overcome. I didn't get into it much deeper than that.

[hfojvt]

142. but the statement is not about two people

"it's tougher being black than being white"

The statement must apply to all 194 million whites (including me) and all 36 million blacks (including my friend the doctor).

So a white guy with a crappy life MIGHT have a slightly less difficult time than a black guy with an equally crappy life. Well, what about all the black guys who have better jobs? Just ignore them? Pretend they don't exist? Don't count?

Telling the 19 million white Americans who are below the poverty line that they have "white privilege" says that they must somehow be better off than the almost two million black families who make over $75,000 a year.

Yes, let's tell the three million white families who make less than $15,000 a year how easy they have it because they are white. That you can write something like this to a white guy with a career as a janitor and factory temp.

"Because this is one classroom in your entire life. One speck of discomfort in an ocean that is your life of privilege. Because white supremacy dictates that your skin -- and let's not forget your maleness -- will make things fundamentally easier for you than for a person (and especially a woman) of color."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/olivia-cole/shannon-gibney-teacher-race_b_4378444.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

That I, and millions of white people who have it much worse than me, have lived a "life of privilege" a life that was "fundamentally easier".

[badtoworse]

150. You are certainly making valid points

It sure is ludicrous to tell a white guy supporting a family with a janitor's job that he is living a privileged life. It would be even more ludicrous if he's cleaning an office where there happen to be black professionals working and making multiples of his salary.

I think the OP had broad brush generalities mind (as did I) in generalizing about who has it tougher. Real life is very different.

BTW, what did you think about the Raider game? I thought Geno played better. It was really cold though.

[hfojvt]

163. I had to google Geno

I am not really a Jets fan, or a football fan.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/122

Although I read that post and say "see below" and that applies to my old signature line, from MLK. Which said "everybody can be great, because everybody can serve."

[badtoworse]

164. When I saw the Jet's logo, I assumed you were a fan

[riqster]

2. Hellz yeah. It was easier to get out of a trailer park

...because I could work on my diction, change mannerisms, and scrounge up some decent clothes, and the interviewers couldn't easily tell I was lower-class. Because I'm white, it was easier to pass.

[BlueToTheBone]

35. Because I'm white, it's easier to pass.

Yes, exactly. I slide under the margins, but I get to pass. And yes, even as a woman, my white skin has made it possible for me to live a life differently then it would have been had I been a black woman.

[Cleita]

6. No matter how disadvantaged you were, I can guarantee before

affirmative action became law, if you were competing for a job with an AA, you would get the job. After affirmative action became law the bar was set higher for the black person. I actually witnessed this when an African American woman applied for a secretarial job where I worked and passed the typing test at 55 wpm. She was told her skills weren't good enough yet the blond, white girl who got the job only typed 40 wpm. This was an equal opportunity employer.

[riqster]

42. Nonsense.

What you witnessed was a violation of the law, not an example of it.

Unless you'd care to cite the law mandating a higher typing speed for Black clerical workers?

[Bradical79]

49. +1 the law did not contribute to that.

That was a pretty blatant violation of the law if true.

[Cleita]

53. If you say so. However, if you are of a certain age and was in the work

place in the fifties and sixties before affirmative action, did you not think it peculiar that all your coworkers were white and the only people of color were cleaning people and other menial jobs where you worked? Also, I only gave you one example of race discrimination in the work place. I witnessed many, as well as gender discrimination, a lot of against me, and I reported them to personnel or human resources and little if nothing was done to address it.

[riqster]

56. Your post said that the laws raised the bar for AA workers.

And I called BS on that assertion, and that assertion alone.

[Cleita]

57. Call BS on it then. You aren't the first who refuse to believe that

real racism and discrimination existed and still exists in the workplace and you can't prove it doesn't.

[riqster]

58. Confusing.

Your earlier post said that anti-discrimination legislation made things worse for people of color by "raising the bar". That is a steaming load of donkey bollocks.

This post says that racism was there before the laws, and is still there now in spite of the laws, which is quite true.

Kindly tell us which of these two very different statements you actually meant.

[Cleita]

59. Don't bother to reply to this.

You just made my ignore list.

[riqster]

61. Shrug.

It was an honest question, and I was not the only person to respond to your post.

[Gormy Cuss]

71. I think her point was that pre-affirmative action, there was no reason needed

to ignore the African-American candidates outright. Employers refused to consider them.

After affirmative action became law, there had to be some defensible reason why the white candidate was chosen over the African-American candidate and a relatively small difference in skills (like typing 55 wpm rather than 40 wpm) could be discounted in the hiring decision in favor of other skills/experience where the white candidate was stronger -- even if the job ad had emphasized typing speed as an important skill.

Now if the African-American candidate typed 80 wpm, she would have been so far superior in skills that the hiring manager would be hard pressed to explain why the 40 wpm blonde was hired instead. In effect the bar was raised higher for African-American candidates-- to be considered they had to be not just as qualified, but substantially better qualified.

So it's not that affirmative action made it harder, but that affirmative action didn't level the playing field. At least that's how I read Cleita's posts.

[riqster]

73. Plausible. Thanks!

[Cleita]

103. Thank you. That's what I meant.

You articulated it much better than I did.

[bluestate10]

96. You are right. I have witnessed racial and gender discrimination. The people that

discriminated justified their actions by saying that people of color and women had "advantages". The "advantages" only existed in their minds as a way to justify their actions. You are ALSO correct in saying that it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get the problem corrected by working within the company or corporation, a person has to sue to get management's attention. Most people don't like suing, but I suggest that anyone that feels discriminated against do just that, sue, don't go to the EEOC unless you have an attorney that is a skilled lawyer in the field of discrimination. Once you have sued, you can force a company to open up records that it would not otherwise share with you. One of the most promising areas is emails. People who are biased show their bias in many ways, often sending derogatory emails to people that they think are of a like mind. Once those emails exist, they serve as exculpatory evidence that a good lawyer can use to open up a case.

Big companies took to hiring minorities and women for the head compliance positions and started calling themselves equal opportunity employers years ago, none of that is worth shit unless the CEO and top officers believe in equal opportunity to their core. A White man who believes deeply in treating everyone equally on the job and is willing to go to the carpet fighting for equal rights is more valuable in the CEO chair or head of Compliance than a minority or woman who sees a big six or seven figure salary, but isn't willing to not only rock the boat but capsize the damned thing if needed to insure equal employment opportunity. I have gotten to the point where seeing a minority or woman in a high office at a company or corporation means nothing to me if I can't walk the halls and sit in conference rooms at those businesses and see minorities and women yielding real power up and down the corporate ladder.

[Cleita]

102. People don't want to believe it exists because it's

making them look like bigots, but it's there.

[bluestate10]

107. It is there and it is a scourge that any person running a company that wants the company

to continue to prosper in a changing world must confront head on. There is no way to sugar coat it, people who discriminate must be found and removed from companies, else those companies slowly, but surely will die. I am willing to bet my fortune that if you looked at ANY under performing company and many that perform ok, under the surface you would find racism and sexism that if eliminated would make those companies perform almost infinitely better, to the point where they would be lethal competitors to have arrayed competitively against any company you are associated with.

Even on a Liberal site like DU people have trouble admitting that racism exists in the workplace. Most will acknowledge that sexism exists. When faced with a person that one likes being actively involved in denying deserving people employment and salary rights, the initial tendency is to recoil or disbelieve. But those reactions are just what the person guilty of discrimination wants to happen. The rightfully angry minority person, man or woman calling him or her a racist or sexist is not what is feared, those people can be effectively marginalized by the discriminator pulling internal strings. The thing that a discriminator fears is that every string that is pulled will become subject to exhausting analysis, with the end result of that analysis being finding out the truth.

[MadrasT]

10. I am a white person who grew up with precious few disadvantages...

...and is fucking grateful about that, because I know it was just dumb luck that I was born into a financially secure white family in the United States.

Most of my problems are so "first world" I feel guilty even whining about them (when I pull my head out of my ass and look at the big picture).

[me b zola]

11. I spent years attempting to explain white privilege to the mr....

He is a wonderful man without an ounce of hatred in him, but he did not "get it". That is until Travon Martin. Mr.MBZ grew up poorer than poor. He and his siblings were the target of bullies because they were so poor. But when mr. z heard the phone calls of AA's calling progressive talk radio in the aftermath of the murder of Travon, describing how they would teach their children about certain dangers that no other group of people would have to worry about...that opened mr. mbz's eyes forever more. Now he knows that as a white man he has privileges that are not afforded other people.

[Nye Bevan]

12. If Barack Obama had been born white, would he have still become president?

Who knows?

[CreekDog]

13. wow, another white person (I'm white too), who thinks the exception proves the rule

[Gormy Cuss]

14. Are you implying that he was aided by his skin color?

If not, what are you implying? That it didn't matter?

[Starry Messenger]

15. Why not?

[CreekDog]

17. So, Nye, you praise Thatcher, say that Obama got elected because he was black...

disparage Hugo Chavez...

come on. we get it.

while nobody has to like everyone on the left side of the aisle.

your locutions make it clear where your sympathies lie, Nye.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. +1000

You've noticed that too huh?

[treestar]

26. Most certainly

And would not have had every nomination filibustered, and would not have had the birther BS, etc.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. Because it's so easy to become president when you're black

Look at all the black presidents we've had. It's very hard to become president when you're a white male, right?

What a joke of a comment from you, but expected.

Par for the course.

[Cali_Democrat]

28. What's your freeper handle?

You're not fooling anybody.

[CFLDem]

29. If Barack was white

Hillary would've become president.

I know a lot of people don't want to hear this, but Bush so damaged the presidency that this country demanded a minority be elected as a physical incarnation of our rejection the Bush presidency.

Barack would still have gone far in life but not to the presidency in '08.

Throw your fruit if you must, but the truth is the truth.

[Bacchus4.0]

36. agreed, it would have been Hillary n/t

s

[riqster]

43. Hypotheses are not truth. They are possibly true. Nt.

[CFLDem]

45. No

I think it's very safe to say that the only way white Barack would've had a chance is if Hillary had broken her neck on the campaign trail.

People tend to forget that Barack wasn't all that popular until it became clear that the first black president was a practical reality.

White Barack wouldn't have had that edge.

[riqster]

46. Nevertheless, all you have is an opinion based on a hypothesis.

There is no factual evidence backing your "truth". Only your opinion.

I could offer this truth: the Cleveland Browns would have won multiple Super Bowls had Art Modell not taken control of the team back in the day. Lots of people would agree, and come up with a persuasive case for that "truth". But there is no valid truth to be found there: Modell took over, and the Browns sucked. So we'll never know.

Because we might have sucked either way.

[CFLDem]

47. Weak truth

1) they're the browns
2) the nfl is much more complicated than an election which is really binary due to our corrupt system.

[riqster]

48. Still, neither is a valid truth, because neither has supporting data.

[Bradical79]

50. Barak Obama wouldnt be Barak Obama if he was white.

He would have had a very different background. It's part of what set him apart.

[CreekDog]

123. Barack

[uponit7771]

143. hmmm, sounds like there's some good logic in this... I wanted total opposite of Bush too

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. I would wager, yes ...

given his charisma, eloquence and penchant for picking for surrounding himself with deep and strategic thinkers.

So yeah ... I'd wage he would have become president even if he did not have the benefit of his being Black.

[gollygee]

32. yes

and he wouldn't have faced the level of obstructionism he's faced. He certainly wouldn't have had people question whether his birth certificate was real.

[bluestate10]

108. With his biography sans, certainly yes.

Leading the Harvard Review is a big deal, that position is not given out because of race, there must be outstanding merit that is evaluated with each candidate being completely beige.

[Taitertots]

16. The biggest factor in determining future wealth is the wealth of your parents

Bickering about racial inequity is just a diversion from the fact that the productive gains of the masses are directed to a tiny cabal of rich people (and their children).

We should be less concerned that the tiny cabal of people who control the economy don't match the racial diversity of the country; and more concerned that a tiny cabal of rich people control the economy. As if the cure to the problems experienced by disadvantaged groups would be eased if a tiny cabal of them became unimaginably wealthy.

[CreekDog]

18. it is inequality, but it is also race

racial discrimination has been legal and institutionalized for most of our history.

to think that it's all just about money now, no, it's not.

[Taitertots]

19. Do you think disadvantaged groups benefit by having a tiny cabal of them join the 0.1%?

The policies that have the greatest positive impact on disadvantaged groups are policies that reduce overall economic inequality. African Americans are receiving disproportionately less benefit from our economic system; laws that change the distribution of income will disproportionately benefit them (reduce wealth and income gaps).

It certainly isn't "just about money now". If we want to talk about policies that provide the greatest quality of life increases for African Americans, than the conversation should go right to talking about money. The most insidious forms of institutionalized racism have been illegal for decades.

[CreekDog]

20. why are you arguing with me? racism is still with us in institutional and other ways

we should fight inequality.

we should fight racism.

we can do both, we are a large country, we have been known to do two things at once, or don't you think we can?

now stop trying to argue this with me. you aren't going to make the fight against racism as taking away oxygen from the fight against inequality.

not going to let you do that. quit trying.

[gollygee]

34. Do you really believe this?

"The most insidious forms of institutionalized racism have been illegal for decades."

[Number23]

22. Holy shit

Bickering about racial inequity is just a diversion from the fact that the productive gains of the masses are directed to a tiny cabal of rich people (and their children).

I just... wow. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY strikes me as more historically ignorant and clueless than the "it's not color, it's class" crew. But this post takes the cake.

[JustAnotherGen]

52. I love when I fall down

The rabbit hole on a monday morning!

[Number23]

74. Yeah, but it was SATURDAY when I typed that post!

I thought the damn thing was invisible.

[Scootaloo]

77. While true, you ignore the racial distribution of wealth

A higher percentage of nonwhites are below poverty line, than whites.

So while your statement that "wealth of parents" is more important than skin tone is more or less true - a child of rich black parents is going to have an easier time in most things than a child of poor white parents - it ignores the fact that there aren't so many well-off black parents as whites, thus skewing economic disadvantage further towards minorities.

it also ignores that a child of rich white parents has an easier time than a child of equally wealthy black parents.

it's not all about economic strata, though that does have a very significant impact

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. White privilege definitely exists. We can't *know* what the path not taken looks like, however...

I strongly suspect it would have been a much harder path. Affirmative action does not entirely mitigate the problem.

And it's not all racism. I think there are many cultural differences that, when growing up, shape our beliefs, attitudes and ways that we react to things.

Most black kids don't grow up in the Huxtable household. I didn't either, but enough of my white peers did that I was imprinted with a mainstream society-friendly frame.

I guess "Why" is outside the scope of this conversation. Suffice to say "it is". Every metric of social health of blacks relative to whites is poor.

[CreekDog]

23. there are cultural differences between white and black that shape how we react to things?

wanna expand on that?

[NYC_SKP]

24. Nope. That's not what was written. Here:

.

And it's not all racism. I think there are many cultural differences that, when growing up, shape our beliefs, attitudes and ways that we react to things.

There are plenty of other cultural differences, even within the same race, that may be addressed by this comment.

[CreekDog]

25. In a question about black and white, he refers to cultural explanation

Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2013, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

You are wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. So... I answered your question.

Was this something you wanted to talk about or was it a gotcha attempt?

It should be uncontroversial that different ethnic groups have different subcultures, and I think that it's apparent that some of those subcultural norms complicate escape from disadvantage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. There was a thought provoking article posted on the topic here about a week ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4112860
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/why-do-poor-people-waste-money-on-luxury-goods

My family is a classic black American migration family. We have rural Southern roots, moved north and almost all have returned. I grew up watching my great-grandmother, and later my grandmother and mother, use our minimal resources to help other people make ends meet. We were those good poors, the kind who live mostly within our means. We had a little luck when a male relative got extra military pay when they came home a paraplegic or used the VA to buy a Jim Walter house (pdf). If you were really blessed when a relative died with a paid up insurance policy you might be gifted a lump sum to buy the land that Jim Walters used as collateral to secure your home lease. That's how generational wealth happens where I'm from: lose a leg, a part of your spine, die right and maybe you can lease-to-own a modular home.

We had a little of that kind of rural black wealth so we were often in a position to help folks less fortunate. But perhaps the greatest resource we had was a bit more education. We were big readers and we encouraged the girl children, especially, to go to some kind of college. Consequently, my grandmother and mother had a particular set of social resources that helped us navigate mostly white bureaucracies to our benefit. We could, as my grandfather would say, talk like white folks. We loaned that privilege out to folks a lot.

I remember my mother taking a next door neighbor down to the social service agency. The elderly woman had been denied benefits to care for the granddaughter she was raising. The woman had been denied in the genteel bureaucratic way -- lots of waiting, forms, and deadlines she could not quite navigate. I watched my mother put on her best Diana Ross "Mahogany" outfit: a camel colored cape with matching slacks and knee high boots. I was miffed, as only an only child could be, about sharing my mother's time with the neighbor girl. I must have said something about why we had to do this. Vivian fixed me with a stare as she was slipping on her pearl earrings and told me that people who can do, must do. It took half a day but something about my mother's performance of respectable black person -- her Queen's English, her Mahogany outfit, her straight bob and pearl earrings -- got done what the elderly lady next door had not been able to get done in over a year. I learned, watching my mother, that there was a price we had to pay to signal to gatekeepers that we were worthy of engaging. It meant dressing well and speaking well. It might not work. It likely wouldn't work but on the off chance that it would, you had to try. It was unfair but, as Vivian also always said, "life isn't fair little girl."

In my area and social circle, insurance settlements aren't the only vehicle for social mobility. If Ms McMillam Cottom's account is correct, the perception that a middle class life is attainable is a white privilege factor.

[greatlaurel]

40. Thanks for the link

Great article and great post.

[HipChick]

31. White people can never understand the racism non-whites undergo on a daily basis

[gollygee]

33. That is getting more and more obvious

the more threads I read about race here.

[Glassunion]

38. I got a lol out of this post.

I'm reading a forum, that consist mostly of highly enlightened, progressive, liberal minded individuals. Folks who come from a shared conscious, that fought for equality for decades. A group of honorable individuals, who to this very day are not afraid to stand up, speak their mind, and continue the fight for equality. And on this great forum of ours is a poll, in which I cannot take a part in, solely because of my skin color. I cannot stop giggling.

Thank you... Carry on.

[CreekDog]

39. you can take part in this poll, if you cannot, that is your own limitation

not one I put on you.

[Glassunion]

55. I'm not upset in the least. It gave me a good chuckle at the irony. That's all.

I have nothing against your poll. It just gave me a smile and I thought I'd share.

[CreekDog]

60. I didn't say you were upset

and if you can't answer the poll, that's your limitation, not mine.

[Glassunion]

62. I could, however it would be a lie for me to answer the poll.

I'm a white person (I am not) who grew up with significant disadvantages (I did), however if I were black (I already am)...

I do not fit the demographic of the poll as stated in the first four words, therefore if I were to answer it would be a lie.

Sort of like:
If you like anchovies do you like them better on your pizza or a Greek salad? - If you don't like anchovies, yet still answer you are intentionally flawing the results. Which is a lie.

Now suppose there is one answer over the others I want to see have a higher number in the poll in order to validate a preconceived (which may not be true at all) notion that I may have, and I vote for it. Would that not be dishonest? Would that be fair to everyone who did take the time to answer the poll?

[CreekDog]

64. quit with the bullshit, the poll isn't limited to any racial or ethnic group

my example pertains to my experience, the poll asks for one's opinion about my experience.

quit trolling this.

[Glassunion]

65. Oh for fuck sakes, lighten up.

[CreekDog]

66. you're disrupting this thread

accusing me of posting a poll for only one racial group.

why not go waste time arguing for more guns in schools instead of bothering with me?

[Glassunion]

67. Ok. So I read your post wrong.

I read it as a general statement, and applied the language to myself. For that I am sorry.

That said, and after reading it again, I feel that there are too many unique circumstances in order to pigeonhole it into one of 3 responses. There are too many factors at play. Some of which may make the circumstances easier to overcome.

So you grew up poor, and disadvantaged. Me too. Does the fact that you grew up white, aid you in overcoming those disadvantages? Hard to say, as you made no mention of if you did or did not overcome them, and how you did or did not. There are a lot of things that attributed to me overcoming mine that cannot be attributed to the color of my skin, and others that can, and none of which fit easily into one of three single answers.

As to me arguing for more guns in school... Horseshit.

[CreekDog]

68. you disrupted, you misread the post then spammed the thread with nonsense

now you claim you want to have a reasoned argument that just happens to say that we don't really know if being white is an advantage in general?

more BS. have the discussion with yourself.

[Glassunion]

69. I disrupted?

I said that I got a LULZ out of the post. Big deal.

I stated that there is more to it than can easily fit into your simple 3 choices. I never once made the "claim" that we really don't know.

I stated that there are a lot of variables in each of our lives that can attribute to overcoming our disadvantages. Some are because folks are white and others not so much.

[CreekDog]

70. you disrupted when you misread the post claiming I only wrote it to exclude your participation

...based on your ethnicity/race. that's the first disruption. when i pointed out that wasn't the case, you spammed the thread doubling down on your initial BS.

now you claim to want to have an enlightened discussion.

you trolled and disrupted this thread and i'm not convinced innocently either.

and now you claim that it's just too complicated to decide if it is often or generally speaking a greater disadvantage in this nation to be black or white. you're just having so so so so much trouble even making a generalization about that.

the disruption at the beginning was bad enough, the new nonsense you're pushing proves it's not worth the oxygen to have the discussion with you.

[Glassunion]

72. You need to take a breath. Really. You are reading way too much into this.

Way too much.

I read your OP wrong, and when you pointed it out I acknowledged that, admitted my mistake AND I apologized. If you cannot let that go, that is your problem.

You say that I am claiming quite a bit. When in fact I am claiming nothing of the sort. I never made the claim that you ONLY wrote it to exclude my participation. I also do not claim to want to have an enlightened conversation. I realize from your tone, that this would be an impossibility.

I trolled nothing. And if you feel that I did so out of some sort of malice towards you, I'm afraid that you are quite mistaken.

I stand by my opinions that the whole of race disadvantage cannot be summed up in a simple A, B, C multiple choice questionnaire.

[CreekDog]

79. people posting conservative things are always giving me advice about breathing

[pintobean]

82. Here we go

add another one to the list.

[CreekDog]

83. It's your idea, you do the paperwork

don't try to slough it off on me.

[pintobean]

84. It's your game

I'm just an observer.

[CreekDog]

86. No, you tried to give me orders and make me do your dirty work

I don't take orders from you and I won't make lists of posters for you.

That would be really underhanded.

[pintobean]

87. See post #81. /nt

[CreekDog]

89. No I don't see it

Again with the orders.

[Glassunion]

85. Trifecta!

Troll - Check
Gun Nut - Check
Conservative - Check

Is there anything else you'd like to accuse me of? Any more words you wish to put in my mouth?

A little advice. When someone apologizes, they may actually mean it. Not everyone is out to get you.

[pintobean]

90. It's been like this for years.

I find it quite amusing, but most people just ignore it.

[Skip Intro]

94. His goal isn't discussion or understanding, but the opposite.

Trying to engage him will only waste your time and energy, as you can clearly see.

[CreekDog]

99. I see you've made a new friend

[CreekDog]

41. for the people answering that it would be easier if black

thanks for the

[DLevine]

44. I noticed that. WTF indeed.

As difficult as my life is and has always been, had I been born black, my life would have been even more difficult, no question about it. It's about recognizing your privilege. It doesn't mean your life has been an easy road, it means your white skin color gave you a decided advantage every day of your life.

[Feral Child]

54. Fucking trolls

There are issues that solid progressives can disagree on: "is pornography harmless/harmful" for example.
if there is 1 valid purity test, no progressive (brown or white) will deny racism &/or white-privilege.

Anybody that answered that their life would be easier if black is pushing the "affirmative-action-is-reverse-discrimination" button.

Anybody that answered in that way does not belong here and is intruding for the purposes of disruption.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Why did you ask a question in which any of the answers are wrong?

Next time, just label all the wrong answers "poke me with a stick".

[CreekDog]

78. the polls show DU to be a very progressive place...this poll shows that as well

though some trolls may vote and some may vote the non progressive option...

these polls show an almost unanimous consensus even when the bad options are allowed.

in other words, this community seems divided, but in reality but for the trolls, on most matters, DUers are almost overwhelmingly united.

the trolls and racists would have you think otherwise.

and meanwhile, considering your opinions on gender issues are scary, frankly, when i asked you about the racial subcultures, i actually didn't want to hear your answers to the question.

because i don't want to read the likely nonsense that it will include.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. For someone uninterested in answers, you ask a lot of questions. n/t

[CreekDog]

134. i'm uninterested in *your* answers because it was heading in an Archie Bunker direction

who knew your backward notions of gender extended to race. who knew?

[Skip Intro]

81. He posts polls to do research on DUers that answer them.

He's even admitted it.

He's just here to sling mud and disrupt.

My advice is to avoid his polls and any attempt at discussion with him, for he will only lead you down an endless road of bullshit.

Of course, you've probably already figured that out, seeing as it is pretty glaring.

[CreekDog]

88. No, I post polls to either gauge overall support of an issue

and also to show how progressive DU is.

there's never any need for 100% agreement. the 90%+ agreement that this site has on a host of progressive issues is impressive and heartening.

[Skip Intro]

91. Then what are you talking about here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2165837

And what are others in that thread reacting to?

[CreekDog]

92. what i'm talking about is what I said

I'm not ashamed of these votes, polls or posts.

Where I've made posts I regret, that's what apologies, corrections or deletions are for. None of us is perfect, I wouldn't expect that of anyone.

But, regrets about these polls or those posts --not in this case.

[bluesbassman]

104. Why in the world would you be ashamed CreekDog? Thes "polls" do exactly what any push-poll does.

You get exactly the answers you are looking for. You should revel in that.

[CreekDog]

105. it's a push poll when we ask basic questions about the existence of racism and disadvantage here

next?

[bluesbassman]

109. Oh, I'm sorry...

I didn't realize that the question of racism and disadvantage had not already been addressed here on DU before. I understood your poll to be asking a disadvantaged white person how they could possibly know if their life would be any different had they been born a disadvantaged black person. My bad. Carry on with your important work discussing racism and disadvantage.

[CreekDog]

110. well if you think we should be through discussing racism and disadvantage on DU

why don't you just ask us all to stop?

[bluesbassman]

127. Thoughtful and genuine discussions about racism and disadvantage are always enlightening.

Push polls that are designed to elicit responses that you can pick apart, criticize, or simply catalog so that you can pull them out at some future date to validate your insinuations that one DUer or another is not a "true" Progressive or Liberal; meh, not so much.

[CreekDog]

128. actually most of the people arguing with me didn't vote in the poll

and the poll result was I think a good one for DU.

[bluesbassman]

129. Well I'm sure the collective Progressive consiousness of DU has been elevated by your poll.

Personally I do not participate in push polls, but that's just a general rule I adopted some years back. As far as arguing with you, yes your poll was very successful in generating some entertaining dialog and as a bonus you get to add some delightful responses to your database that could prove very handy for you in the future.
Mission Accomplished! Bravo CreekDog!

[CreekDog]

130. so sorry my polls don't meet your obviously high scientific standards

that all of your posts obviously meet.

[bluesbassman]

131. No need to apologize, your polls are sorry enough.

[CreekDog]

133. go talk to your friend HopeHoops

that seems to be he kind of poster you prefer.

[Upton]

138. How can you consider the poll results valid..

when you yourself admit most DUers who disagree with you don't vote in them?

[CreekDog]

145. Since you disagree with most DUers on most issues

I don't really think you know what you are talking about.

Not to mention you have misquoted me.

[Upton]

148. "Since you disagree with most DUers on most issues"

Oooh..the self appointed moral arbiter of DU has spoken..

[CreekDog]

149. That wasn't a moral observation, but an empirical one

or did you come to this thread because there weren't enough voices opposing racism here?

[Upton]

151. As already suggested..

you apparently do research the history and keep a dossier on those DUers who either vote "incorrectly" in your push polls or disagree with you on some topic. Don't you have something better to do with your time other than to act like DU's version of Joe McCarthy?

[CreekDog]

152. i don't keep a dossier and i don't keep track of the people who vote stupidly in my polls

i just like most of the people here.

that's the problem here.

you and a few others think i write the poll to "catch" people who vote a certain way.

i create the polls for the opposite reason: to encourage unity on that which nearly all DUers agree.

i'm actually not that surprised that the more conservative DUers complain about my polls. my polls show that even with the acrimony here, on the basic issues that make us liberals, my polls show how we are almost unanimous.

trolls and conservatives here hate that kind of result.

but criticize away. heaven forbid we post a poll that asks whether it's harder to be black in this society than it is to be white. that offends a lot of white people.

[pintobean]

153. " to encourage unity on that which nearly all DUers agree"

Yes, that's what this thread is all about. Especially with Jeff, who voted with the 94%.

Unity!!!

[CreekDog]

154. Yes, it is.

I realize you have a rather simplistic and limited ability to look at things here.

Not to mention your lack of interest in politics here, all you can sustain interest in is Meta type issues.

[Capt. Obvious]

156. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Tue Dec 10, 2013, 01:24 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yes, it is.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4158839

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Simplistic and limited ability? He may as well just call the member an idiot. This is disruptive, hurtful and rude.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 10, 2013, 01:38 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: i like cjeekdgg
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: It does seem just an insult with no other purpose.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: ?

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[CreekDog]

157. yes, they are alerting most of my posts

interesting that "i like cjeekdgg" is making fun of Skip Intro's alert of his own Meta OP last Christmas. it was that memorable.

it's been referenced in two different jury results already today!

[CreekDog]

158. thanks for the alert!

At Tue Dec 10, 2013, 10:41 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

i'm uninterested in *your* answers because it was heading in an Archie Bunker direction
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4157585

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

He's throwing these unsubstantiated insults at DUers all over this thread. TheOP is trollish and so are most of CD's replies. Jeff voted in the poll - he voted with 94% of DUers who voted.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 10, 2013, 11:02 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The OP is NOT trollish and CD is right. Stupid alert. This post stands in my opinion.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: nice try. I like crjeekkjdog. leave
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Mudslinging, name-calling, purity-polling and all the other normal Creekdog activities we deplore. Probably won't get hidden, but voting to hide on principle. Good riddance.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[Capt. Obvious]

159. LOL

[pintobean]

160. With my simplistic and limited ability

I couldn't possibly have figured that out all by myself. Someone must have PMed those jury results to me. That's how you got them, after all.

Gotta love juror #3.

[lumberjack_jeff]

165. +1

In this case, it doesn't help to assume good faith. One can discuss the issue raised, and even pick the right answer from the spectrum of CD's uh, I mean "their" choosing and he'll uh, I mean "they'll" still use it as a vehicle to discuss what is really on his their mind... not the issue, but developing a rationale to make personal attacks on you.

I'm a little unclear at who this constituency is that he claims to be speaking for, though.

It's all about the purity test. The trick is to design the test in such a way as to get the people he dislikes on the other side of it.

But what do I know? My "Archie Bunker" brain probably can't comprehend the depth of the game he's playing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. The problem is "we" are refusing to discuss it.

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2013, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)

"You all" are building a dossier by trolling for wrong answers, even so far as helpfully providing the wrong answer.

[CreekDog]

146. Why would you consider your posts a "dossier" on you?

if you're that ashamed of them, why post your opinions at all?

please don't play victim here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. As of now, I'm as uninterested in your questions as you are in my answers. n/t

[CreekDog]

161. you should thank me. i probably stopped you from getting banned.

had you actually explained what you thought about racial subcultures, i think the outcome for you here would not have been very good.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. Why don't you tell me what I think about racial subcultures?

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe I can help return the favor. Or not.

Baiting. Two can play.

[pintobean]

93. The Meta threads were much better

especially when he got them confused.

[Skip Intro]

95. Oh yeah.

Definitely has that unintended hilarity aspect.

What I don't get is why someone would waste so much time trying to set up other DUers and then attack them, day after day, month after month, year after year.

I mean, what does he get out of it?

What a colossal waste of time.

Not to mention being creepy as hell.

But with some real rofl moments.

[CreekDog]

97. if you feel so strongly about this, feel free to post a poll asking members here

whose approach and posts they prefer. yours or mine.

i do attempt to support the values of the site overall. if the members think you're doing a better job of that than myself, i encourage you to find that out with a poll.

what do you say? gonna post a poll over who is more supportive of this site and its mission, you or myself?

you keep complaining that i behave badly here, why not ask everyone what they think?

surely you aren't scared of the results? are you?

[CreekDog]

98. I'm sorry I can't be more like you and Skip Intro

but you don't need my agreement. if you want to have a buddy, Skip Intro is here for you.

enjoy the camaraderie. i'll get mine from the fellow progressives here.

[pintobean]

100. What does that bs have to do with

your Meta disaster?

[CreekDog]

101. why don't you post my "Meta disaster" so everyone can decide what they think

[pintobean]

106. .

[CreekDog]

111. afraid to let others judge whether it really is a "disaster"?

[Skip Intro]

112. ROFL! n/t

[CreekDog]

113. Wow. You are laughing pretty hard considering what you pulled in Meta last Christmas:

76. Are you having another "party"? Perhaps you can alert on it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=193264

"Last night I had a couple of people over and drinks were flowing and it was, let's say, kinda smoky"

Further "how-to" demonstration here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=192973

"Alerted by Skip Intro: The statement of purpose for this forum says it is in poart to discuagg issue gtwettn oher duers but this is talkinb bad about other duers and I' like cjeekdgg"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2302309

they closed Meta but lots of people remember you self alerting thinking you were sly, to innoculate your OP from being hidden.

[pintobean]

114. You're linking to a poster

who quit posting in embarrassment because Skinner showed him to be full of shit in ATA. See his sig line.

"He has no clue what he is talking about."

[CreekDog]

115. honestly, that you're defending this person is really a strike against them

what is it you like about this place? not the politics apparently.

[pintobean]

116. Do you miss the toadies?

I didn't defend anyone. I just pointed out your silly link. I didn't even mention your links to a forum that only admin has access to. You're not admin.

[CreekDog]

118. if you don't like this place or liberal causes, nobody is forcing you to give liberals a hard time

seriously.

bye.

[pintobean]

119. No, it's about you.

Seriously.

My reply to your deleted post:
I don't take your shit.
That's what bothers you. You seem to think you have some kind of authority here. You don't, and everybody knows it. Most DUers are well aware of your antics and your little fan club has evaporated. Are you getting lonely?

[CreekDog]

120. You follow me around, how could i get lonely?

[CreekDog]

122. maybe you can go support Skip Intro when he calls Trayvon Martin a racist

...as he did recently.



but you don't care. something here rubbed you the wrong way a while back and you've soured on our politics here. perhaps you really do miss LoZocalo, you've seemed to turn sour ever since he was banned and called a troll by the Admins.

[Skip Intro]

126. Link or you're lying. (You're lying).

Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2013, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I say 34/33/33 you'll ignore this post (because you can't back it up, as what you claim never happened)/you'll delete your fraudulent post/you'll come back with even more ridiculous attacks, overjoyed and drooling that somebody is paying attention to you.

Again, link or you're lying, clear as day for all to see.

That meta thread where I called you out, btw, the one you're not over a year later ( ) - this is the kinda dumb shit I was calling you out for.

[Skip Intro]

155. CreekDog lies.

No link = lie.

Jurors, link was requested yesterday on his lie, and wasn't posted, and lie wasn't edited - it still stands. But it is a flat out lie. I'm merely pointing out that truth.

[CreekDog]

124. hey pintobean, here's what you're doing here --now everyone will understand

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3318319

19. Hi Skip.

I recced because...

[CreekDog]

121. so you know that Skip did that which was described

and you were there the whole time, you even took him to task for it.

and now you're attempting to get everyone here to believe it didn't happen, without actually saying it.

which is kinda how you operate around here.

[CreekDog]

125. enjoy the laugh, i understand you need one

but it's time to get over the war.

[ChiciB1]

135. Not That I Ever Had Much Money...

but as a white person I always knew more doors opened easier for me! So sad. I was pretty young when Martin Luther King began pushing for Civil Rights, but I remember black & white water fountains. As well as not allowing blacks at swimming pools and eating in cafes & restaurants!

And there are many more issues I could site. I'm very happy to see more inter-racial couples today... some progress & something I feel too many whites DO fear! Oh, too too bad!

[HappyMe]

137. Why the fuck did I even open this Meta mess.

Instead of discussion, you get

[rrneck]

139. Nobody expects the inquisition

unless Creek's around.

[CreekDog]

141. is anybody forcing you to post here?

no.

if you have an opinion that you're going to be ashamed of, don't post it.

[rrneck]

144. Okay.

Of course nobody is forcing me to post here. I rather enjoyed it. It's fascinating to watch somebody tallying up petty contextomy from pseudonyms on an anonymous message board.




I rather like the opinion to which you responded.