Michael Jackson and Michael Vick. It's amazing how some people can't let shit go.

[CatWoman]

Michael Jackson, for all his faults, was a very talented and caring man.

Yet to some here, he was/is nothing but a filthy pedophile. That's their story and they're sticking to it.

Michael Vick was tried for his crimes, found guilty and served time.

Yet he is still punished by some who go out of their way to deny the man any kind of forgiveness.

What he did was horrible and disgusting. I am an animal lover so it was very hard for me. Yet I can't go along with the sentiments of those who think he should be punished for the rest of his life.

Sometimes you have to just let shit go.

[CBGLuthier]

1. One of them was actually punished for his crimes.

One of them still has people convinced that because he was talented and caring that the occasional child rape was A-OK.

I don't care much about Vick but fuck MJ and his whole miserable life. Without Quincy Jones he would have been a footnote in history.

[CatWoman]

4. ......

Aphrodite Jones uses the court transcripts and photo evidence never before seen by the public to tell the real story behind the salacious headlines -- and what went on inside -- and outside -- Michael Jackson's highly sensationalized 2005 criminal trial. Turns out, inside the courtroom, there was no proof offered of Michael Jackson as a sinister character, and no proof that he committed a single crime. In their efforts to win ratings, Jones proves,the media completely missed the truth. Back then, Jackson was the pop icon everyone loved to hate. Now, with Michael Jackson Conspiracy, he may be restored to the pop icon everyone loves to love.

http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jackson-Conspiracy-Aphrodite-Jones/dp/0578061112

[XemaSab]

8. Nope, nothing sinister here

[CatWoman]

13. might not be sinister

but it is puzzling?

[Politicalboi]

29. He only paid 20 million in the 90's

To the boy who described his penis. MJ was a sick bastard. Children, including his own are safer today.

[Capt. Obvious]

126. Aphrodite Jones

[KittyWampus]

130. wtf are you laughing at? Someone's name?

[Capt. Obvious]

133. Oi

[KurtNYC]

137. Do rape victims ever get to "let it go"? Your OP is offensive.

Do the victims of rape, especially by a wealthy pop star, ever get to "let it go"?

Dozens of young men will live the rest of their lives with what MJ did to them and then paid their parents to cover up.

According to new reports this week, pop icon Michael Jackson paid $35 million over the course of 15 years to cover up his pedophilia. Secret FBI files, the Daily Mirror (UK) reports, show that Jackson shelled out that cash to silence “at least two dozen young boys …. Agents have thousands of pages of evidence dating back to 1989 indicating Jacko groomed and molested children – sometimes right under the noses of their starstruck parents.”

Actually, the documents show more than that. They show that some of the parents were willing accomplices in the sexual exploitation of their own children. Jackson was apparently once caught by a member of his staff groping a child star; another time he was caught watching child pornography while touching another child; a third time, he was caught grasping at the genitals of a different child in his movie theater. The mother of one of these kids was in the theater at the time, supposedly unaware of all of this. Overall, at least 17 boys were abused, according to the files.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/ben-shapiro/how-michael-jackson-got-away-with-it/

Having the parents participate in the rapes takes it to whole other level (if that is even possible).

Society has a responsibility to protect children from monsters like Jackson and Sandusky. We should never forget how these two operated with the acquiescence of those around them.

Just follow the money and BELIEVE THE CHILDREN. (and please stop telling MJ's rape victims to get over it)

[zappaman]

140. Michael Jackson fucked little boys.

The amount of porn and pictures of naked children found in his home was staggering.

It's sad and sick to read people here defending him just because they liked some songs.

[arcane1]

77. Are you talking about Jackson, or Polanski?

[el_bryanto]

2. Hmmmm. Well Michael Vick i don't think too much about because i don't like sports much

That said if someone said "I just can't listen to Jackson's music without thinking of that other stuff; it irritates me - so I just don't buy or listen to Michael Jackson anymore," would that be an example of not letting shit go?

Or to give an embarrassing example - I quite like Duran Duran - but their album "Seven and the Raged Tiger" I can't enjoy because it was played a lot in 8th grade at Junior high when i was either lonely or getting picked on. So that album (and some other music) I just don't care to listen to.

Bryant

[marsis]

3. Looks like you've proven your point!

[CatWoman]

5. I don't understand your post

?

[marsis]

17. What's not to understand.

You posted that people won't let it go and they posted and proved you right.

[CatWoman]

19. lol

ah, got it.

sometimes my brain flickers on and off like a light bulb

and to your point, they are somewhat, um, vocal about it.

[marsis]

85. See whay you've done

gotten all these poor people into an uproar, too funny.

[XemaSab]

6. If Bill Clinton had 12-yo girls over to his house and shared a bed with them

would that be okay?

If Jimmy Carter was fighting dogs in his back yard, would that be okay?

There are things that normal, moral people do not do. Fucking kids and torturing dogs are two of those things. If you do them, you're gross and I want nothing to do with you.

[CatWoman]

9. damn, that's kinda harsh

I grew up in the same area as Michael Vick (Tidewater, VA), and I saw some mean shit done to animals. Done by my own father, no less. But I don't then nor now think it's "ok".

And I'll need more than your word that MJ was "fucking kids".

[XemaSab]

16. So you don't have a problem with a grown man

sharing a bed with pubescent children that he wasn't related to?

If he said it was totally innocent, you would believe him?

You're really naive, dude.

[Blus4u]

129. Uhhh, I don't think....

she's a dude, man!

Otherwise her handle probably would be "Catman"...just guessin' here, but today you never know.



Peace

[cynatnite]

12. There is no evidence Michael Jackson ever hurt a single child. n/t

[kiva]

14. This ^^

Abuse children? Abuse animals? Live (or die) with the fact that some people will never forgive and forget. And no one who does it - or their fans - that everyone will.

[dionysus]

87. ! i know i'm going to hell, but the mental imagine of jimmeh running a dogfighting ring out back of

the WH...

[TroglodyteScholar]

124. Nailed it. n/t

[Whisp]

7. You are right about Michael Jackson, Catwoman.

That man got a raw deal from every yellow fucking journalist out there - and there are too many. It's sickening that any adult that claims to 'love children' is suspected of something evil.

I'm still not at a place to 'forgive' Vick (as if I have that kind of authority over any one) but I will at least let it go.

[lunamagica]

88. So you think it's normal for a grown man to sleep with boys?

[Whisp]

92. push off.

[nomorenomore08]

98. No, of course not. That's the thing. On the one hand, I don't doubt Jackson behaved inappropriately

in some sense with those kids. I just don't know if he actually did what he was accused of, which was fondling them AKA sexual abuse.

He was a naive, and likely somewhat disturbed, man. But was he a child molester? I honestly don't know...

[zappaman]

10. Michael Vick, unlike little-boy fucker Michael Jackson, actually served time.

Little-boy fucker Michael Jackson paid tens of millions of dollars to keep his ass out of jail.
Big difference.
Also, Vick is scum for what he did but that pales in comparison with the crimes of little-boy fucker Michael Jackson...

[CatWoman]

15. I think I threw up over your entire post

[Rex]

18. Let's not forget dangling a baby outside a hotel window.

He liked to sleep with children, why does that fact so infuriate some here when it is told? Folks he was a grown man sleeping with children, I don't care how much you want him to be forgiven...that is just wrong.

I don't really think about either two men much, unless someone brings them up on a forum.

[zappaman]

31. Imagine being so enthralled by a celebrity

That you would excuse a grown man for fucking little boys?
Pathetic.

[Rex]

40. I hear that, I will defend some crazy things but I do draw a line

and MJ and his sleeping with kids is that line. Also, I can separate his music from his personal issues.

What really gets me is that Michael Jackson had such severe psychological problems, yet why the fuck wasn't anyone living off his billions trying to get him help? If they really cared about HIM and wanted HIM to get better...nah didn't happen.

Nobody gave enough of a shit, just like they didn't care if he slept with kids or dangled a baby from a 7th story window. As long as the money train was coming in, hell they let him die...because it was his 'wish' to live longer (or whatever crazy shit by that time was going on in his head). Sure, for a buck and now their money cow is dead.

The entire thing is sad really, probably why I don't think about it much.

[zappaman]

43. Exactly...nobody cared.

Sad on that level.
But being a little-boy fucker has no excuse.

[CatWoman]

45. to the contrary, many were upset/outraged about the baby dangling incident

that was just stupid.

It was on the news 24/7, so I can't agree with your "nobody cared" sentiment.

I remember Steve Irwin being called out as well, when he fed this huge crocodile while holding his infant son.

So many faulty memories around here.

[zappaman]

47. Nobody cared..who was close to him.

Maybe you should have read the post it was in response to.

[HappyMe]

50. Oh, that freaked me out.

Babies are so wiggly and squirmy.

The Irwin thing didn't bother me as much, for some reason. Or maybe it did. It was quite awhile ago.

[Rex]

48. I agree, he decided to crawl into bed.

Just like I believe some Catholic Priests have raped choir boys. I don't like the fact and I sure wish it wasn't true, but it is. I blame his handlers just as much as I blame him.

Then there was his 'doctor' jacking him up with horse tranquilizer until he dies.

All totally preventable things imo.

[CatWoman]

44. actually

I'm enthralled by finding the truth by not excusing stupid shit that people post as fact.

[zappaman]

46. It's okay.

You can still enjoy his music.
It's just tainted somewhat by the fact he fucked little boys...

[Initech]

55. Someone drank their Haterade this morning.

[zappaman]

57. Ya got me!

I do hate little-boy fuckers.
Unabashedly.

My cross to carry...

[Initech]

58. I do too.

But where is the evidence that Jackson paid that kind of money to get out of jail?

[zappaman]

63. ...

Michael Jackson paid £23MILLION buying silence of at least TWO DOZEN young boys he abused over 15 years
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/michael-jackson-paid-23million-buying-2011662

FBI Docs On Michael Jackson: 'Only Boys That Never Slept In His Room Were His Nephews'
http://www.celebuzz.com/2013-07-02/michael-jackson-allegedly-paid-35-million-to-silence-boys-he-sexually-abused/


Michael Jackson Allegedly Paid Off Molestation Victim's Families
http://www.contactmusic.com/news/michael-jackson-molestation-allegations-documents_3741799

Michael Jackson trial: Star allegedly spent $35 million to silence 24 boys, could help Wade Robson's case: sources
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/michael-jackson-trial-spent-35-million-silence-24-boys-wade-robson-case-sources-article-1.1386694?localLinksEnabled=false

Those are all from this year.
Here's the first time it was shown he paid off a kid's family...

Michael Jackson's $15 Million Payoff
Agreed to pay $15 million to settle boy's 1993 sex abuse claim
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/celebrity/michael-jacksons-15-million-payoff

[CatWoman]

72. ....

Michael Jackson Conspiracy (New Edition) is the only full account of the phenomenon that was "the Michael Jackson trial." Providing vivid details that people never saw in the news, Jones describes the accuser and his family as a band of grifters, a group of gold-diggers, who were looking for a payday in Hollywood . An intense account of what really happened in the Santa Maria courtroom, the author reveals the sham behind the allegations of accuser Gavin Arvizo, who had also "targeted" other celebrities like Chris Tucker, Jay Leno, and George Lopez, before landing the biggest fish of all: Michael Jackson. The book exposes, undeniably, why the jury found Michael Jackson NOT GUILTY on all counts, and how a media frenzy ignored the actual evidence, opting instead for ratings and sensationalism, at the expense Jackson's reputation.

http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jackson-Conspiracy-New-Edition/dp/0615686206

The audience is transported back to 1993 and taken through the first set of allegations levelled against Jackson. Much time is dedicated to the controversial settlement of the civil suit brought by Jordan Chandler's parents. That settlement, Jones suggests, is the primary cause of many people's reservations about Jackson.

Former Jackson manager Frank Dileo says that Jackson was tricked into the settlement by business advisors more interested in the star's earning power than his public image. Thomas Mesereau, who represented Jackson in his 2005 trial, adds that the settlement also set a precedent for anybody wishing to extort money from Michael Jackson, sending the message that he was an easy target. It created an attitude, he says: 'Why work when you can just sue Michael
Jackson?'

It was Jackson's concern over the impact of the settlement on his public image, Jones claims, that inspired him to let Martin Bashir into his inner sanctum. Seduced by Bashir's promise that his documentary would centre on Jackson's quest to achieve an International Children's Holiday, the star gave Bashir unprecedented access to his life in the hope that it would vindicate him of the 1993 child abuse allegations. But Bashir manipulated the footage in order to advance his own career, Jones says. Bashir ended up crossing the pond to work as a news anchor for ABC, while the documentary Jackson hoped would vindicate him actually wound up serving as the catalyst to a second set of allegations.

Thomas Mesereau describes former DA Tom Sneddon - who tried to prosecute Jackson in 1993 and brought charges against him in 2003 - as being "obsessed to the point of absurdity". Paul Rodriguez, jury foreman in Jackson's trial, agrees. "He came across like he was just doing anything he could to pursuade us to look at things his way, regardless of the evidence," he says. "It was almost like he had a vendetta against him."

Criminal defence lawyer and celebrity trial expert Mickey Sherman adds:

"I think [the prosecution] got too emotionally invested in the case. I think Tom Sneddon seemed gleeful. Gleeful. He took a little too much pleasure in dishing out misery to Michael Jackson... There was such an eagerness to dish out some bad stuff to Michael Jackson that the credibility was, if not lost, certainly diminished."

Jones asserts that the media ignored the not guilty verdicts in Jackson's trial and continued to portray him as a predator because it made 'great headlines on the covers of rag papers'. Mesereau adds that the media was 'humiliated' by the verdicts because reporters had been predicting a conviction and 'almost salivating about him being hauled off to jail'. Jones concludes that the trial traumatised Jackson to such an extent that he was unable to sleep, and this is why he died of a propofol overdose last summer.

http://charlesthomsonjournalist.blogspot.com/2010/04/preview-true-crime-with-aphrodite-jones.html

[Spider Jerusalem]

97. ...

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/052505pltmotchandler.pdf

“We believed what the child was telling us,” says Bill Dworin, a retired detective and expert on pedophilia.

A 34-year veteran of the LAPD, he’s investigated more than 4,000 sexual exploitation cases. He was also one of the lead detectives investigating the charges against Jackson. And for the first time, he is talking about the investigation from the inside, exclusively with “Dateline.”

Dworin: “Everybody who listened to this child, ‘cause he’s not only interviewed by my officers, he was interviewed by Department of Children and Family Services, he was interviewed by the district attorney’s office at a later date, we were all satisfied he was a very credible witness.”

(snip)

Dworin: “We had served a search warrant to photograph Michael Jackson. Those photographs corroborated the description that the boy gave us regarding Michael Jackson’s genitals.”

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3080078#.UqeWuOJO6P8

[Capt. Obvious]

135. I believe Aphrodite Jones and her book

are a more reliable source than some children.

[XemaSab]

136. Has Aphrodite Jones seen MJ's cock?

Can she describe it in detail?

[Capt. Obvious]

138. Is it bigger than a bread box?

[XemaSab]

141. If it was a shakedown

where are the little girls claiming he molested them, or the grown women claiming they were assaulted?

All the victims fit a profile.

[CatWoman]

59. LOL

Chock full of vitamins and amino acids.

Well, acid anyway

[cynatnite]

11. Sometimes it suits people to not let go. It helps them keep their moral high ground...

Michael Jackson championed AIDS research. He not only made some good music, he also did a fair amount of good in the world. I'm not convinced that he ever molested any child. He is guilty of showing very bad judgment in regards to children.

Michael Vick gets a pass because he served his time. Other criminals are given second chances for their crimes...so why not him? He does a fair amount of charity work as well.

Some people feel the need to retain their moral high ground so fiercely that they will not give second chances to those who served the time that the state demanded. It's convenient for them.

[LanternWaste]

20. I'm not in a position to forgive either one, as neither did anything to me. It's up to their victims

I'm not in a position to forgive either one, as neither did anything to me. It's up to their victims to forgive.

However, although I often separate the art from the artists, sometimes the artists becomes known by his non-artistic works. Albert Speer was a very talented residential architect.

And although I am, have been and will be boycotting the NFL until Vick is out of the league, his punishment is indeed over, he's cashing huge paychecks, has an adoring fan club, and you seem to care more about people's opinions of him than he himself does...

[duffyduff]

21. One was actually proven guilty, the other one wasn't and was trashed

by "yellow journalists" like Martin Bashir and Diane Dimond for ratings and money.

The two aren't similar at all.

[CatWoman]

23. one was found guilty, served time and still being trashed

one was found not guilty, is dead now, and still being trashed.

We have to agree to disagree.

[Scootaloo]

27. Well, Vick actually did what he was accused of

There's something of a difference between "actually torturing dogs so that they'll tear each other up" and "being accused by a liar for a payout and then getting crucified by the media over it"

Jackson was a victim. Vick was an abuser. BIG difference.

[HappyMe]

22. Michael Jackson is dead, so there isn't much

point in carrying on about him

Vick did his time in jail so I don't see the point in rehashing.

[CatWoman]

24. there are two huge threads on the subject

one on each.

I got disgusted reading thru them, resisted the urge to post in them and decided to post my own thread.

That ok with you?

Your ignore/trash thread button not working?

[HappyMe]

25. What?

Um...I was agreeing with you - no need to get mad at me.

[CatWoman]

34. LOL

I'm sorry

I read your post incorrectly

Given the venom and misinformation slung around here, that's not hard to do.

[HappyMe]

38. No harm, no foul.

I probably wasn't super clear about it either.

And you are right, with the chair flinging and such it's easy enough to do.

[NuclearDem]

26. Just because someone served their time

It doesn't entitle them to complete and total forgiveness. What Vick did was sick, and yes he served his time and shouldn't be legally persecuted for it, but it doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to like him.

[TDale313]

61. ^^^ this ^^^

[sibelian]

86. ... yes.... but you don't do EVERYTHING because you're obliged to, do you?

Sometimes you do things for other reasons.

[840high]

108. Neither am I.

[Bennyboy]

28. much too-do about nothing here...

I started the Michael Vick thread. Fuck that fucking fuck. I was watching a game, one that featured his team and I thought "fuck that fucking fuck". I am so fucking glad that i am never going to see that fucking fuck's fucking face again on TV and thought I might express my thoughts on that very subject.

I don't give a fuck about the guy really, he will ALWAYS have a better life than you and me, and that includes his treatment in the penal system. More athletic privilege.

I am glad his career is over. Glad he got his ass handed to him before he left too. I hope that I don't see his fucking face on fucking TV in any capacity.....

Now tell me what is the deal in Ukraine? Who do we support there?

[CatWoman]

35. and you also started the thread about the black heros

Michael Jackson --------> Jonas Salk.

Best post in that thread.

And yes, I understand you don't give a fuck. You must be proud.

[jaysunb]

49. +1 and thanks for the thread....

I let myself get caught up in BB's little hatefest yesterday, and it was a real sick party.

[joeglow3]

79. You remind me of a guy I saw at a concert

It was a one day outdoor concert they had every year. We called it the white trash bash because there were some real pieces of work. One guy wore a shirt that said "fuck you you fucking fuck". I KNOW this 50 year old loser had this shirt sitting out for a week, thinking he would be a stud for wearing it.

[Texasgal]

30. UGH!

Amazing that DU'ers are not allowed to have an opinion about a pedophile creep and a dog torturer without being lectured.

It's not up to anyone here on DU to tell me what to "let go" of.

[CatWoman]

36. I wasn't aware I was telling you you couldn't have an opinion

or that I was lecturing "you".

But you do need to let go of some things. Just an opinion.

[Texasgal]

42. well thank you for that.

I'll let it go when I want to. Until then I still think they are both assholes.

[Politicalboi]

32. Dave Chappell sums it up

"Pressed permed hair with glitter sprinkled on it" "Would you let your children sleep with Michael Jackson" Fuck NO!

[Go Vols]

94. +1

[bigwillq]

33. Both POSs because of their actions

and deserve any and all criticisms.

[trumad]

37. Let it go or else!

[HappyMe]

39. Yay! A fresh outrage!

[CatWoman]

73. hey baby

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

41. Come on! Be reasonable.

The stuff he put out after "Bad" was pretty unforgivable.

[1000words]

51. It's an issue of maturity and grace ...

More accurately, the lack of these traits.

[TheSarcastinator]

52. What a load of apologist crap

Michael Vick did NOT serve any time for animal torture or slaughter: he was convicted and served time for shady financial dealings related to his profit from the dog fights. This is not complex or difficult to understand but time and time again apologists for this creep ignore it completely. Vick was convicted of "Conspiracy to Travel in Interstate Commerce in Aid of Unlawful Activities and to Sponsor a Dog in an Animal Fighting Venture". This is a RICO charge, not an animal cruelty charge. The animal cruelty was considered only an "aggravating circumstance" for sentencing. MICHAEL VICK DID NOT SERVE ANY TIME FOR TORTURING OR SLAUGHTERING ANY OF THOSE DOGS.

As for defending that serial pedophile, I couldn't be more disgusted. He never paid for his crimes against children and is still idolized as a hero by millions because he could dance and write a catchy little jingle. Pardon my French, but f*ck that noise.

[Blus4u]

132. wow, dude...

You just blew some really fresh air into what had become a pretty stinky room.

as a rookie myself, welcome and......

Peace

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

53. Yeah,

let it go. We have other stuff to bitch about!

[LittleBlue]

54. I've always been torn on Michael Jackson

Could never figure out whether he was a pedophile or just crazy. With normal people it's easier to understand their motivations, but with crazy people like MJ it's much more difficult to nail down.

At the trial he was found "not guilty" on all counts. His behavior was indicative of what I would think of as a pedophile, then again his behavior was also indicative of extreme eccentricity/mental problems. His behavior in other areas of his life made absolutely zero sense to me, so it's damn-near impossible for me to say beyond a reasonable doubt what he did.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Whatever the truth was, there, MJ was a perfect example of what happens when you

put a human being in a completely insane situation, i.e. lifelong global celebrity from Early Childhood.

Think of how most of us relate to the Universe; we all have solipsistic tendencies, to be sure.. yet the Universe is constantly offering us reminders that it does not, in fact, orbit around us.

With MJ, he never got that. He WAS constantly at the center of an attention, reality, and existence tempest, all whirling around, and because of, him.

That would fuck up even the most hardy, solid mind.

Edited to add: The British Royal family is probably the only comparable example, but they have had generations to come up with institutionalized coping mechanisms for it.

[nomorenomore08]

99. Probably one of the best analyses I've seen of the "Jackson problem"...

[darkangel218]

56. Excuse me if im not ok with ANIMAL ABUSE!!

As far as MJ, they were all alegations. So I won't comment there.

But may Vick suffer for the rest of eternity for what he has done!! Fuck him and fuck anyone who abuses innocent animals.

Have a nice evening.

[CatWoman]

62. I am not ok with animal abuse either

as I stated, I watched my father do horrible things to dogs. Not just my dad, but other male family members.

I constantly donate to animal shelters (only the no kill ones). My neighbor and I catch, fix and release the feral cats back into the neighborhood. I pay for the procedures.

Having said that, am I supposed to hate on my father and piss on his grave for his transgressions, after all these years?

You have a nice evening as well.

[Texasgal]

64. we're expressing dislike for

these two people on a anonymous message board. I don't think you can really conflate the two.

[mokawanis]

60. Sometimes I just don't like somebody

and Vick is one of them. Paying the debt for his crimes doesn't make him a likable guy. In my opinion what he did was so awful he gets the "asshole" tag attached to his name for a long time to come.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

95. i don't really care about people who think he is what you said

which quite honestly i agree with, he is somewhat of an asshole after all, what irks me to some degree though is those who makes posts and such suggesting he should never hold another job, that he never should be able to do the sport he loves, that every single positive thing he does is 'just another PR move' to trick people into liking him yadi yadi yadi.

the first(asshole view) is a simple dislike, but when people start to basically hope eternal misery and punishment on somebody i think they might take it juuuuuust a tad to far.

[mokawanis]

101. You make a good point

While I think Vick is an asshole I don't think the punishment should be ongoing. From what I know of the situation he paid for things he did and now he's getting on with his life. That sounds fair to me. I'll probably continue to think of him as an asshole for a long time, but I don't want to see him injured or have his career cut short.

[HipChick]

65. Anything to do with them both being black and rich?

Yes.. I went there..

They both paid their dues...

Bush is still walking around free..and so are all the criminals on Wall Street..

[JI7]

66. yes, but i wouldn't put Jackson and Vick in the same category as i don't think JAckson

ever did anything wrong.

the only thing people can say about him is he may have been weird.

the father of the first boy who accused him killed himself after jackson died . i wonder if he felt guilt.

bashir exploited jackson's weirdness to promote his interview.

but bashir even said afterwards that he never saw jackson do anything that was inappropriate.

[MrScorpio]

67. You can tell a lot about a person from their obsessions. nt

[On the Road]

128. +1

I am going to keep that expression around.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. It seems to me, in the case of Michael Jackson, to be pretty much either/or.

IF he actually abused kids, sorry, not gonna "let that go". It's hard to whitewash something like that or "balance it against" the rest of the dude's life.

But I don't know.

All I can say about MJ is, I wasn't a big fan of his music. I do get a little annoyed when people think every damn teen in America spent 1983 listening to Thriller.

[Skittles]

70. Michael Jackson was not a pedophile

he was like a child himself

but Vick? He is a sociopath.

[lunamagica]

90. Have you read the list of all the porn found at his home and entered into evidence?

Not very childlike

[Skittles]

106. not getting into this

not worth my time

[pipi_k]

111. And what normal

13 year old boy wouldn't jump at the chance to have, or even look at, a porn stash?

MJ's chronological age and mental age were so disparate it wasn't even funny. I would say his mental age probably WAS about 13.

Which, IMO, is a child

A baby

So yeah...it's pretty child like...

[lunamagica]

112. Yeah, boys go wild for kiddie porn...perfectly normal...sure

[U4ikLefty]

119. Wouldn't he have been arrested if that was true? nt

[lunamagica]

131. It is true. The evidence was filed. I guess you missed the link

Here:

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/011805pltreqaseemd.pdf

He bribed the boy (over 20 million Dollars!). That's why he didn't serve time

[Major Nikon]

118. Interestingly enough it's also pedophilia-grooming-like

I find it amazing how people dismiss the reality that MJ was the epitome of a child sexual groomer.

In the case of sexual grooming, child pornography images are often shown to the child as part of the grooming process.[1][2][3]

To establish a good relationship with the child and the child’s family, child groomers might do several things. For example, they might take an undue interest in someone else’s child, to be the child’s “special” friend to gain the child’s trust[citation needed]. They might give gifts or money to the child for no apparent reason (toys, dolls, etc.). They may show pornography—videos or pictures—to the child, hoping to make it easy for the child to accept such acts, thus normalizing the behavior. They may simply talk about sexual topics. These are just some of the methods a child groomer might use to gain a child's trust and affection to allow them to do what they want. Hugging and kissing or other physical contact, even when the child does not want it, can happen. To the groomer, this is a way to get close.[dubious – discuss] Or rather could reflect their depraved intentions toward the child. They might talk about problems normally discussed between adults, or at least people of the same age. Topics might include marital problems and other conflicts. They may try to gain the child’s parents’ trust by befriending them, with the goal of easy access to the child. The child groomer might look for opportunities to have time alone with the child. This can be done by offering to babysit. The groomer may invite the child for sleepovers. This gives them the opportunity to sleep in the same room or even the same bed with the child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/011805pltreqaseemd.pdf

[Jamaal510]

71. I set a personal record in yesterday's thread

for the most replies to one of my comments (21 replies). Some folks don't like it when you say that they're basically holding a grudge against Vick even after he spent time behind bars, but that's the truth. They continue to harbor ill-will towards someone who has already been punished for his misdeeds. And constantly hating him will not bring all of those dead dogs back to life.

[CatWoman]

74. word

[stevil]

81. Nothing

will bring those dogs back to life. That is the point.

[Dorian Gray]

107. No,

but I dislike people out there for far less.

Julia Roberts gets on my last nerve and all she ever did was jump on Denzel's back.

And Paris Hilton? I can't even look at the woman without vomiting.

So, yeah, I judge people for their past actions. And someone who most like abused a bunch of kids and someone who killed a bunch of animals I'm going to dislike.

[LeftyMom]

75. I'm kicking this because it's the goofiest goddamn thing I've ever read, and I believe in sharing.

[Marrah_G]

76. One was a man having little boys sleep over in his bed and the other tortured animals for fun

Not exactly sure why you are upset that people think they are both scum.

[Deep13]

78. Kobe Bryant is still a rapist. nt

[LibDemAlways]

80. Michael Jackson has been dead for

over four years. He was a talented but troubled man. It serves no purpose to judge him now.

As for Vick, the courts dealt with him. He was released and allowed to get on with his life.

Kind of related--an old classmate of mine served a long sentence for a crime committed back in the late 1970's. You may have heard of him. He is Chris Boyce, the "falcon" of "The Falcon and the Snowman" fame. Back when he was in his early 20's he was given a top secret job as a clerk at defense contractor TRW. He was outraged when he found out that the CIA was interfering in Australia's internal affairs, and he and a buddy struck back by conspiring to sell classified documents to Russia. Thy were young and stupid. They were caught and both served lengthy sentences, much of it in solitary. Chris was paroled in 2003 and now lives a quiet life. He and his wife co-wrote a book recently about his experiences, a book which I mentioned on a Facebook post. The hatred that poured forth from former classmates was astounding. The courts set him free, but he remains a prisoner of people's hatred and inability to let go. More than one person said they 'd execute him if given the chance. I'd prefer to respect the judgement of the courts and let both Chris and Michael Vick get on with their lives.

[ZombieHorde]

82. Perhaps you should

just let go of the fact that some people won't let some things go.

[mfcorey1]

83. ITA!!!!!

[NaturalHigh]

84. I really don't know much about the Michael Jackson thing.

As for Michael Vick...yes he served his time. Then he got out of prison and was given the opportunity to make millions again. He is not still being punished. He's an NFL quarterback. In every meaningful way, he has been given another chance. That doesn't automatically entitle him to anyone's respect, though.

[lunamagica]

89. here's the evidence found at his home

It includes a naked picture of the boy who accused him. It's plain to see why MJ paid over 20 million dollars to this boy. This evidence, plus the boy's description of his genitals would have landed him in prison

http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/011805pltreqaseemd.pdf

[XemaSab]

96. Just because he had a house full of pictures of naked children

doesn't mean he was sexually attracted to them!

Michael loved children!

He loved them so much that he used to sleep with them, even after being accused of child molestation!

It was innocent!

Sharing photos of nude children with boys he slept with was innocent!

Showing his dick to boys he slept with was innocent!

What is wrong with you, tarnishing the reputation of a grown-ass man child? With a house full of kiddie porn?

All those little naked children in that one picture he had commissioned of himself are crying now because of you!

You should be ashamed!

[zappaman]

100. Let's be honest...

What grown man DOESN'T have naked pics of kids in his home?
What grown man DOESN'T like to sleep with little boys in the same bed?

Maybe we should not be so judge mental of this wonderful little boy who never grew up?

[XemaSab]

105. Why, just today I was straightening the cushions of the couch and I found a stack of kiddie porn!

It's so easy to find these days.

Half the books I get at Barnes and Noble nowadays turn out to be kiddie porn. My mailbox is stuffed with kiddie porn. I go on my favorite websites and there's kiddie porn in the sidebar.

Seems like you can't leave the house without seeing a picture of a naked kid.

Child porn is a fact of life, and as long as it doesn't affect my close relationship with all the boys in the neighborhood, I don't really see a problem with it.

[Beringia]

104. Wow, that is damning

I had not formed an opinion other than he might be a scapegoat, until reading that list of materials he had.

[Nye Bevan]

91. DUers certainly seem more willing to forgive Ted Kennedy for Chappaquiddick

and Robert Byrd for being an Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan, than they are to forgive Michael Vick.

[Deep13]

93. Honestly, I don't care about Vick.

Yeah, dog fighting is an ugly thing. Still I'm not one of these folks who think dogs or other animals are better than people.

Byrd repented. He turned his back on the Klan and sided with civil rights. Besides, one does not need to like the guy to appreciate whatever his public accomplishments are.

I don't know what happened at Chappaquiddick, but it was probably not murder (intent to kill). More likely, it was an involuntary manslaughter caused by the misdemeanor of DUI. Unfortunately, Ted's rich, white privilege shielded him from any legal consequences the same way it protected Dick Cheney after he shot a guy. Still, Ted Kennedy's public role was as a warrior against poverty and injustice.

[catbyte]

116. Perhaps that's because Byrd & Kennedy expressed real remorse & lived their lives in

service to others afterwards. What has Vick done to show he truly regrets his torturing & killing animals for fun & profit? The only thing he is sorry about is that he got caught. You really don't see a difference?

[Nye Bevan]

122. "Michael Vick to work with Humane Society on its campaign against dogfighting"

Humane Society President and CEO Wayne Pacelle said he was approached with the idea of working with the former star quarterback several months ago by Vick's representatives. After meeting with Vick at the federal prison camp, Pacelle said, he decided just within the past week that working with Vick was the right move for the society and its missions. Specifics are to be determined, but Pacelle made it clear that the expectation on both sides is for Vick to contribute more to the cause than public service announcements. A source close to Vick said he has agreed to be more than a spokesman. Pacelle believes Vick can do the most good in the area the society believes is of greatest need -- urban outreach and prevention.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/05/michael-vick-to-work-with-humane-society.html#sthash.IYXnnFXe.dpuf

[catbyte]

134. And how long did that last? (Insert eye roll here)

[MirrorAshes]

102. They can both rot.

They get no forgiveness from me.

[malaise]

103. Well said

Some people are incapable of forgiving others.

[840high]

110. It doesn't bother me

not to forgive Vick. The pictures of those poor dogs will remain with me.

[flvegan]

109. Sell that shit to the dogs and the rescuers involved.

Animal lover, my ass.

[Beringia]

113. I agree

Would a person forgive them if it was their dog tortured.

[CrawlingChaos]

114. +1000

[catbyte]

115. Sorry, CatWoman, but Vick was immersed in a long standing ring of horrific animal abuse

that was not only illegal, but morally repugnant and on a par with horrific child abuse. He never really expressed any real remorse. I don't go out of my way to hate him, but as far as I'm concerned, he was, is, and always will be a colossal POS. He didn't spend nearly enough time in prison. Did you see his dogs?

[Vashta Nerada]

117. Michael Jackson and Michael Vick were both disgusting human beings.

I don't have to let anything go.

And the disgusting thing about Michael Vick, after he served his time, he had a job waiting for him in the NFL again. He's back to playing and earning his millions.

[a la izquierda]

120. My husband has worked with abused and neglected dogs for years.

After scumbags like Michael Vick get done with them, living creatures sometimes remain. Sometimes. The nightmares that animals rescuers go through dealing with the remnants of dog-fighting are horrific, and that's not even considering what the animals themselves went through.


Then there's the human victims of child abuse, which I thankfully know nothing about.

People feel passionately about this, so expecting folks to "let it go" isn't logical. It's human nature to despise Vick and Jackson. Michael Vick is a disgusting excuse for a human, because he preyed on our animal friends who grew up alongside us as human beings and who've always looked to humans for companionship. Dogs aren't human, but nor are they chickens or cows. Dogs have always been something different. Even though Vick was charged and jailed, preying on dogs does something to the human psyche in most normal people, I think.

Michael Jackson was never convicted, so I'll let that go.

[pecwae]

121. There's a difference

MJ - for me, not enough tangible evidence to prove the man was a pedophile. Liked some of his music, thought he was weird, that's the extent of my opinion of him.

Vick - irrefutable proof the man abused animals for fun and profit. He's pond scum.

[Sheldon Cooper]

123. I would love to know exactly why we should be expected to "let shit go".

I think you identify a little too closely with Vick, because of your father and other male relatives, as you have indicated. The fact that you have forgiven them for their evil deeds gives you no right to expect others to forgive as well.

[Tim4319]

125. This is just my opinion on MJ and MV7!

In my opinion, Michael Jackson never had a childhood! He was performing continuously from a very early age. He was never afforded a normal life of a child growing up. I also believe the reasons why he gravitated to towards children so much, had to do with children did not want to use him for what he has. So, as he grew older, he found himself trusting children more than he could trust adults. So, he turned his home into an amusement park, had sleep overs, and surrounded himself with children so he could have a childhood.

Now, whether or not he molested children, I do not know! He was found innocent in the court of law, and from what I understand, a person is innocent until proven guilty.

As far as Mike Vick goes, as a kid growing up in Newport News, VA, he would watch dog fights when the police would arrive and do nothing. They would just leave and let the dog fighting continue. So, from a very young age dog fighting probably did not seem to be big of a deal as what it actually was. Plus, Mike Vick did not invent dog fighting. Dog fighting has been going on long before Mike Vick got caught, and it continues to go on to this day. There have been tons of dog fighting rings that were exposed and the worst some of those caught received was couple of thousand dollars in fines.

So, please don't get me wrong, I do believe dog fighting is a horrible act! But, I never hear anyone talk about what he has done with his life as far as animal rights since he has been released? It appears that that people love to have the "crabs in a barrel" mentality, when they refuse to allow someone who has done wrong in his/her past, but after having been rehabilitated, allowing them to prove to society that they truly regret their missteps and they have changed. It would be nice to judge Mike Vick for what he has done since being released from prison. I thought that is what prison is about, rehabilitation and reform!

I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for my opinions, but again, these are my opinions.

[StarrGazerr]

127. Justice has no time limit

The difference is that Michael Vick was punished for his crime, publicly apologized, and has worked to help animals ever since, while MJ bought off his victims and never even acknowledged his crimes, much less apologized for them. Not to mention that Michael Vick preyed on animals, while MJ preyed on human beings. I love animals, and agree that harming them is a criminal act, but it does not compare to victimizing innocent children in any way, shape or form. To say "well he was a talented musician" doesn't give him a pass on morality and legality. They always say "Well, Mussolini got the trains to run on time", but that doesn't excuse the fact that he was a Fascist dictator responsible for the deaths of millions.

[OwnedByCats]

139. Nobody really knows if MJ was a child molester

Nobody will ever know, unless some video footage comes out, which is highly unlikely. He absolutely should have set some boundaries, it however doesn't make him a child molester. I don't know how anyone can know with complete conviction that he was. I have a lot of trouble doing that when I wasn't there.

Michael Vick, well seeing as how I don't think there is any question of his involvement, I have my reasons as to why I don't let go my bitterness over the whole thing. To make clear, I don't wish death or horrible disease on him but I haven't forgiven him because I don't forgive animal abuse. It's not a race thing, I don't care who does it. Makes no difference to me one iota. Not that it matters anyway. He doesn't need my forgiveness.

Here's the thing. Animal abuse hits me at my very core, in a devastating way. I have issues with animal abusers. It happens all around and I can't get away from it. I can't shut myself off from the world. I also can't help animals without knowing the abuse happens. I feel horrible about what the animals went through, how they were afraid, how they suffered, how they died. If I feel horrible for them, then it makes me miserable with a sadness I can't explain. It's how I'm wired. Some of it stems back to something that happened when I was 16. I always loved animals, always hated abuse of them. However, once I actually witnessed at only 16 years old an act of cruelty performed right in front of me and I couldn't stop it and save that animal, it traumatized me. It increased my hatred for it a million fold. I never wanted to kill a person ever in my life until that day. It's scary to actually feel, with no rationality at all, like you want to kill someone in a rage. If I had not been held back by several other people, I would have fought tooth and nail to do it in that moment. I probably wouldn't have succeeded as I had no real lethal weapon at hand, but it doesn't change the fact that it was scary to actually want to do it. Then I have to live through the guilt of not being able to stop it for the rest of my life no matter that I was powerless to do so. I still think if I had predicted what this person was setting out to do, I could have prevented it. Yes, I know - how was I to know? It doesn't stop the guilt for me though.

Michael Vick is just one of thousands who commit abuse to animals but we talk about him specifically because he's a well known celebrity. All abusers are scum. His conduct since leaving prison rubs me the wrong way too. It's not the talks at schools to tell kids not to get involved in dog fighting, it's not what he's done with the Humane Society, it's the fact that he has never reached out to those who helped his dogs. Never offered money to those who used their own to help his dogs, has not even asked how they are. Then he started complaining that he couldn't have pets in his home and his kids are missing out. Firstly, he should have thought about that before doing what he did. Secondly, that ban was temporary. All he had to do was wait 3 years for the ban to expire. Other people have been banned for life on much less forms of abuse, as they should. Then when it expired, he got two dogs, which made my stomach turn at the thought. Then we have the photo ops at Petsmart, him going for dog training. Was that really necessary? Why not hire a private dog trainer at his home, no pictures leaked to the press? Why did this need to come out? Well, I think we all know the reason for that.

I did not think he should serve a life sentence, but I did not feel he should have been allowed back in the NFL. How many other people can leave prison and land a job paying millions, or be able to slide back into their old one? Parolees struggle to live the straight life, but end up back in the system because they can't get anywhere, particularly if they are black. He seems to have landed perfectly on his feet after everything while others leaving prison on far less heinous crimes can't get anywhere.

It's mainly my issues that makes it impossible for me to forgive. If others want to forgive him, that's fine. I won't be mad about that. But others have got to understand - while they may be better people than me, I just can't do it.