Snowmegedon does exist:

[hedgehog]

Every year it snows in places that have cold spells rather than a continuously cold winter. And every year people talk about how "people don't know how to drive here" or "3" shuts down the city"

Let me tell you a little secret: People in Buffalo or Upstate New York are no better at driving in 3" of wet snow than people anywhere else. Here is our big secret:



It's called a snow plow. We pay taxes to buy a fleet of these things and pay people to drive them around on all our roads 24/7 when it is snowing. Typically, any road in my county is down to bare pavement within 2-24 hours of the last snow fall, depending on how heavy it is.

We also inconvenience ourselves by putting various parking bans in place November thru April in order to keep the roads clear so the plows can get through.

Face it, you have a lot of days in your town where the temperature is above freezing. But how many times the last few years has it snowed where you live? (Florida, sit down, I'm not talking to you!)

I maintain that people in the Upper Midwest, Great Lakes snow belts and New England face a natural disaster each winter, but no one notices because we've built in the infrastructure to handle it.

[democrank]

1. We did indeed build the infrastructure to handle it, but

the icing on the cake is the fortitude. Plenty of that here in Vermont!

[hedgehog]

3. Well, if we didn't have fortitude, we wouldn't still be living here

(Although, admittedly, some might say what we have a lot of is stupidity and stubbornness! )

I have a theory that if a community with a steady winter is to prosper, the people in that community have to be independent enough to help themselves and communitarian enough to work with others! No one person plows their way to work through 2 feet of snow, but a community can pool its money and keep the roads clear.

[Demeter]

12. I resemble that remark!

Also, too stupid to quit.

[frazzled]

2. I lived in Buffalo and in Minneapolis

(the former in the late 70s and early 80s, the latter from 1985-99), so I know from snow. And from snow plows. Both cities do a very good job, or at least did.

My nephew lives in Saint Paul (moved from SoCal 6 or 7 years ago), and was complaining about the icy streets there recently--and how people were saying the streets were clear in Minneapolis. I laughed, because that was always the hue and cry back when we lived there: you'd think Saint Paul would have learned after all this time, and with all the snow and cold they get.

[longship]

4. I live in the midst of the Manistee National Forest (MI)

In the midst of the most rural county in west Michigan. All the roads in this area are gravel. The few paved ones take one to a town, the closest of which is 15 miles by road.

But the plows were out this morning on my lonely dirt road which only goes either into the midst of the forest or to the paved road that goes into town. There are few people who live here but the school bus took the kids to school this morning and brought them back this afternoon, thanks to the plows.

There was a time when I'd get snowed in for days here. But not for years. I think that it helps when, in spite of living way out in the sticks, the school bus still has to get through.

The snowmobiles have yet to show up. With all the snow on the ground one wonders what's keeping them away. They like racing on my road, going through the forest and terrorizing the deer, or somethings like that.

Bundle up, people!

[lightcameron]

5. This quote makes me think of Hurricane Sandy

I maintain that people in the Upper Midwest, Great Lakes snow belts and New England face a natural disaster each winter, but no one notices because we've built in the infrastructure to handle it.

The Northeast was (and probably still is) unprepared for a CAT-1 hurricane. The people didn't know what to do, and the infrastructure was woefully inadequate. CAT-1 storms don't affect the Southeast or the Gulf coasts like that.

[hedgehog]

7. Exactly! It's possible to survive storms with minimal

disruption if people are willing to support their local governments and local building codes require proper structures and keep people from building in flood zones.

[lightcameron]

9. All of that, plus self-education and making sure you're prepared.

Maybe they learned a lesson.

[4bucksagallon]

15. Not so much a CAT1, in Maine we get blizzards and nor'easters that rival CAT1 every year.

The ice storm of '98 proved that it is not just wind that can be a major problem for infrastructure.

[hedgehog]

6. More here:

"Syracuse has met the incomprehensible. As of Tuesday, even before winter had officially begun — at 6:38 p.m. Eastern time — 71.9 inches of snow had fallen this month, making it the city’s snowiest December on record.
...
Through all of this snow, public schools in Syracuse closed for only two days, and the airport shut down for 15 minutes. Piles of cleared snow grew to two-story heights, but the roads were plowed and kept open.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/nyregion/23snow.html?_r=0

Buffalo-Niagara International Airport, which hosts the annual aviation snow symposium, has won the Balchen/Post award multiple times. And although it gets an average of more than 8 feet of snow a year, it's been more than three years since BUF has had to close due to snow.

"At the first snowflake we'll send out a whole fleet of broom trucks to immediately begin brushing the pavement," says airfield superintendent Tom Dames. "When snow piles up, we also have monster truck snow blowers that churn up snow and spit it out into the fields away from the runway. It looks a lot like fireboats shooting out plumes of water; except these are huge plumes of snow."

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/experts/baskas/2011-01-19-airports-snow-removal_N.htm

[cemaphonic]

8. Everyone in Seattle is convinced that no one knows how to drive in snow but themselves

The truth is that when you combine:

Steep hills everywhere
Temps that rarely go more than a couple degrees below freezing, producing a continuous freeze/thaw cycle
Ubiquitous street parking in residential areas, sometimes on both sides.
Few plows/other infrastructure
Did I mention the hills?

there's no such thing as "knowing how to drive in snow" beyond go slow and stay on cleared arterials.

[hedgehog]

10. I think I've spotted the problem:

"Ubiquitous street parking in residential areas, sometimes on both sides.
Few plows/other infrastructure "

I can't find any pictures, but I can assure you that Upstate New York has steep hills, too.

[former9thward]

11. I spent a few months in Seattle in the fall of 2010.

Week of Thanksgiving there was some snow and ice storm. I saw buses sliding into parked cars as they tried to make it down the hills.

[NutmegYankee]

14. Coastal New England isn't flat.

We have most of the challenges except street parking and few plows. Parking bans go up before storms, and we pay for huge town plows. Every private pickup that can sport a plow has one this time of year as they clear the parking lots and driveways.

[NutmegYankee]

13. Wait an entire fleet of snow plows?

But that would make the local property taxes really high!


For those who ask why they are higher in the North...

[Cadfael]

17. In Chicago they sometimes make use of garbage trucks

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/streets/provdrs/street/svcs/snow_and_ice_controlinformation.html

''For major snowstorms, Streets and Sanitation also has the capacity to equip as many as 200 garbage trucks with "quick hitch" plows to supplement the fleet.''

[madinmaryland]

16. When you average well over 100" of snow during the winter, it is mandatory to have

a strong snow removal plan. When you get between 3" and 60" during a winter, it makes it a bit more difficult to justify the added expense.

I have lived in CT, MD, and OH, with relatives near Lake Erie in PA. I understood that given the volume of snow that MD gets, they would be less prepared than OH, CT, NY, or PA when it came to major snow storms. On the other hand, when we moved back to OH this last year, I have been surprised with the slowness and lack of snow plowing which I assume is the result of the assault on tax revenue by the fucking teabaggers.

[hedgehog]

20. Looking at what happens in areas with no snow removal

plans, I'd say every snow storm is a major snow storm! The worst driving conditions occur when you get less than 3" of wet snow - its like spreading sop much grease on the roads!

[AuntFester]

18. I'll bet you get charged high taxes for all that heavy equipment.

Does anyone complain about the plow tax?

I wonder how Caribou Barbie felt about plow taxes when she did her half term.

[hedgehog]

19. FWIW - my property taxes to the town and county for services including snow removal

are about half what I pay for school taxes.

Given the loss in earnings when you can't get to work because of snow, or hardship when your car gets totaled, I'd guess it's a wash.

[AuntFester]

24. I was funnin' ya, hedgehog.

No one complains about the tax burden of snow removal. They whine like babies if the plough (I REALLY wanted to use that spelling, lol) is late to their street, but no one complains that the snow got taken away.

They complain about high taxes ONLY when the tax goes to support someone less well off than themselves.

[hedgehog]

34. !

[LWolf]

21. That's part of it.

Although it hasn't snowed here since Saturday, and many of our roads are still packed hard with ice and snow that the plows didn't get. When it's cold enough to keep anything at all from melting, the bulk is removed, but a layer of packed snow/ice remains. The road in your picture is not down to "bare pavement."

Other factors in addition to plowing and graveling the ice:

People here know how to drive on bad roads. When I lived in an area that got snow once every 3 or 4 years, it never failed that all it took was about an inch for cars to start sliding all over the place; off the road and into each other. Here, where it's expected, people know to slow down and leave more space between each car. People DO drive better.

People here expect bad roads. We have more awd and 4wd, and we have winter "traction tires." That helps with "driving better," too.

In areas where snowfall is less common, it makes less sense to invest in all of those plows that will only be used once every few years.

[hedgehog]

22. But in an area that only gets a hurricane "every few years",

does it not make sense to always be prepared?

[LWolf]

25. A hurricane is not in the same category

as a snowstorm. Pun intended.

In my old stomping grounds, snow very rarely lasted more than a day; as soon as it quit snowing, it warmed up and melted off. Snow was viewed as a novelty, and a holiday, for most.

Only once did it snow enough, and stay cold enough, to have snow on the ground for a whole week. That was back in the 80s. By the 3rd day, though, the plows HAD come down from the mountain resorts and cleared the main roads, at least.

I know, because I lived on a cul-de-sac at the time, and my only way out was blocked by the plow plowing up a big ridge of snow on the larger road ours connected to, blocking our exit. It didn't matter, though, since the snow brought a neighbor's tree down, and THAT blocked my driveway. I wasn't driving anywhere for awhile.

I did hike into town on foot to do xmas shopping for my kids, who were little. I could get to the local five and dime on foot, as long as I was willing to tromp through the piles of snow that had been plowed to the edge of the road and up onto the sidewalk. We had a fun week, making snowmen and drinking cocoa and hot egg nog and having snowball fights and various other things we didn't get to experience normally.

[matt819]

23. Yesterday morning I would have said that we in the north are better than most in the snow

However, yesterday afternoon I managed to spin out and total my car driving on some icy slush. So maybe we shouldn't be all that arrogant about our driving skills in winter weather.

To be thorough, however, this is my first such accident of this sort in more than 40 years of driving.

At the very least, though - and accident aside - we in the north don't go all weak-kneed when a few inches of snow falls.

[Warpy]

26. It existed here in the desert southwest a few years ago

We got 18 inches of the shit here in the inner city. While there are plows the Feds use to clear the high passes, there was fuck all here in the city. I was snowed in for 10 days before enough of it melted for me to get my toy car out of the driveway.

I managed to shovel a path to the door, but it was that heavy, wet stuff that produces heart attacks in little old ladies, so that was it.

The last time the city got that much was in the mid 1950s. However, I understand they've invested in a few plows now so at least the main streets will be passable the next time.

[wilt the stilt]

27. I lived in Rochester during college

and the truth about snow is you can't step on the brakes and you can't step on the gas. No one can drive ice unless you have chains. There is nothing like a stick shift for the winter and I still drive one. Last year I drove up to Athens in the snow and some ice and as usual the stick is the best. When you have a stick shift you can stop without ever touching the brakes. I have a specialty car a 1994 Audi S4. Killer car 4 wheel drive and killer handling and acceleration.

[hedgehog]

28. "the truth about snow is you can't step on the brakes and you can't step on the gas"

Exactly! If it snows in your area and there is no road maintenance, every automobile in the area has just been disabled!

[wilt the stilt]

30. coasting is the way to go and you can never really come to a complete stop.

I am a good inclement weather driver but the stick is the way to go. If you have an automatic hang it up. You have no control.

[Historic NY]

29. Thats the way it is in my town...

bare or nearly bare roads. Meanwhile the nearby city might be opened in a week. Poor management and lack of DPW crews costs the school district millions because it can't open. The bus's can't pick up kids at ever city door stop. It never was that way when kids went to their neighborhood school.

[SheilaT]

31. A "snow plow'? When did they invent those?

I say that with great sarcasm, because here in Santa Fe people behave as if only recently the climate changed from being a lot like that of San Diego to the one they actually have. I've been told that this city finally bought its first snow plow about ten years ago.

I've lived in lots of different climates, and I have lots of opinions about snow removal. And driving in snow. I concluded some years ago that unless an area gets at least 30" of snow every year, people just don't have the opportunity to nail down and remember some of the basics of driving in snow.

The most important of which I believe is to drive a stick shift. Really makes a difference.

I also worked for Mohawk Airlines at National Airport in Washington DC from 1969-72, and so I have great admiration for how the airports in upstate New York did at keeping open during the winter. Except for Albany. One day it started snowing and they didn't bother to start plowing the runways until after it stopped. After about 36 inches of snow. Took them three days to plow, in part because the plows themselves kept on breaking down from the sheer weight an volume of the snow.

Also, for what it's worth, I did my training at the Utica airport in January 1969. In my class was a woman who'd lived her whole life in Binghamton, one likewise from Rochester, another the same from Syracuse. Also two from Long Island, which hardly counts in the snow department. The other three were all astonished at the amount of snow they were seeing in Utica.

[hedgehog]

32. I think Albany is an outlier - close enough to NYC

to think it never snows!

[SheilaT]

33. Interesting.

I want to say, but it is in Upstate New York, except that the definition of Upstate seems to be anything north of 125th street in the city.

I've taken up saying "Northern New York" when I want to refer to that part of the country.

There is also "the southern tier" which is that part of the state south of Elmira.