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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnother 62 year old friend is being forced out of her job.
I think that everyone I know has been forced out one way or another.
She has worked for 16 years at a high end retirement community. She has always had excellent reviews.
Then 2 year's ago the corporation brought in a 28 year-old to mix things up. Basically he is there to force most of the older employees out. Of course, the word "age" is never mentioned.
He has made her job impossible for her to do. She has been working 12 hour days, 6 days a week trying to keep up. But she can't do it any more. And she is salaried so she doesn't get overtime. Then she got an terrible review after years of excellent reviews. He wants her to be at the facility for every single social event - impossible for her to do unless she actually live on site.
She is sending out resumes and I really hope she finds something. She is so good at what she does. She just isn't 28.
This is pretty much what happened to me, too. After years of excellent reviews I started getting complaints about how I was working. Only no one ever told me just what the complaints were for. My working atmosphere just got impossible to deal with. Everyone who had worked for the company and made a living salary was forced out - one at a time.
Just hearing my friend's story has made me sick to my stomach all over again. It is just such an awful thing to do to long term employees and it happens all the time.
None of my friends have been able to even get an interview. Month's go by and they get no response for anyone.
shenmue
(38,506 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)I don't know what the answer is.
Even if you would win the suit the work environment would be so awful you wouldn't be able to stand it.
Ace Acme
(1,464 posts)... but then was blackballed throughout the industry. She had to start a new career.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)That is terrible, but Baby Boomers are not retiring. I know she is only 62, but there are people who should have retired years ago and are sticking around for more 401K funding. It is really difficult to advance if people stick around. Hopefully people will plan their retirement accordingly so they don't have to put in more years for retirement. I think people get to frightened about retirement when it is really unnecessary and actually is a great way to live. I know more people who retired say they wish they were not afraid and retired a few years before they did.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)Most of us Boomers can't. Two stock market crashes and a dismal last 7 years have done most of us in.
Maybe we should all just move to Mexico. I guess quite a few people are doing just that. Can't afford to live in the US anymore.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Me, I'd rather live poor than work for 72 hours a week at almost ANY job, and if she cannot afford it, she can probably get a little part-time no benefits job for some extra cash. It may seem like a huge pay cut, but not so much if you are working 72 hours. Much better, IMO, to work just 20 hours for 1/3 the pay than to work 72 hours.
As far as most Boomers. I myself am planning to hit the door as soon as I turn 55 - if not earlier.
Brewinblue
(392 posts)Boomers aren't retiring because their pay has been frozen or cut, their pensions slashed or eliminated, 401(k) balances devastated by wild market fluctuations, increases in benefit costs that are being transferred to them rather than the employer, skyrocketing costs of putting their kids through college, and delayed full SS retirement to age 67. Jesus freaking Christ, what a load of RW shit!
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Skittles
(153,150 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)You don't even get full SS if you retire before the right age. And right now I believe for her it would be 65. They are cutting her off from her full SS benefits by forcing her out now. At this age, she will not be able to get another job easily. She may be forced to take early retirement and less benefits.
SoCalNative
(4,613 posts)but I plan to retire then without getting full benefits anyway, even if it means eating ramen every day for the rest of my life. I just cannot stand the thought of working any longer than that. If I could, I'd retire in 5 years at 55.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I'm 60 now. I'm praying I can 1. hang onto 1 or another of my part time jobs for 2 more years, without 2. murdering somebody or other.
I lost my career at 48. And I thought it was hell before that.
George II
(67,782 posts)....about age 80.5
That means if you retire at 62 at reduced benefits, you start "losing" once you reach 80.5. Essentially by working to 65 (actually 66 for Social Security), you're betting that you will NOT reach 80.5.
For example (rough numbers), you get about 70% of your benefits if you retire at 62, 100% if you retire at 66.
So, when you reach 80.5, you will have collected the same amount over 18.5 years as you would have over 14 years.
The only thing that remains a problem is that your benefits are reduced between 62 and 66 if you have other working income over about $32,000 during a year you're collecting SS.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)quakerboy
(13,919 posts)For long term financial planning, what you say makes sense. But SS isn't a paradise even if you get the max amount. You also have to consider whether the amount you will get will enable you to pay ones bills each month between 62 and 80. If the lower amount wont meet the bills, it really wont matter if you break even or not 18 years later.
George II
(67,782 posts)quakerboy
(13,919 posts)Lord knows your pension isnt safe. Nor your 401k. Nor your house. Nor much of any financial investment available to the middle class.
So, practically speaking, if you have other investments and you can make a purely long term financial choice based on the break even time and your personal expectation of life expectancy, more power to you.
A lot of people dont have that option. They are more worried with how to cover the next months bills than what will happen in 18 years.
tsuki
(11,994 posts)until you reach 1960 (67).
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)My bad. It that affects me too. I should have known that.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Now I will NEVER, EVER be able to thanks to that asshole who fired me almost six years ago. I will have to piece together work until I die.
Fla Dem
(23,650 posts)Very doubtful this woman is even getting a 401k plan through her employer. If she "retires" at age 62, she has at least 3 years before she can collect her full Social Security benefit. If she starts collecting now, she gets a reduced payment for the rest of her life. She probably gets some type of health care coverage through the employer, which she'll lose. She'll not be eligible for Medicare until 65. Did it ever occur to you she doesn't necessarily want to keep working, but NEEDS to? Republicans are even now pushing for a higher age before you can start collecting SS, and want people to work until they're 70.
Your reply is very insensitive and mis-informed.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)They couldn't save extra for retirement.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Twelve to thirteen percent of us are already DEAD. So any Baby Boomer who has died can't be blamed for life as it is. You will have to invent a new scape goat.
Another thirteen to fourteen percent of all Boomers are out there working, even though age 62 to 65 has come and gone.
My Dad, part of "the Greatest Generation" retired at 73. Why? He liked his job. He'd have worked till he died, he often said, except that he hated the commute.
My spouse, who is eligible in another few years for Social Security, will also retire in his seventies. He likes his job, and doesn't feel the need to retire. And since he created his job, all by himself, I don't see why anyone should be pissed he is keeping said job.
Anyway, your anger should be at the Big Corporations, and at the Politicians who do their beck and call, and not at aging Baby Boomers. Yet for whatever reason, worship of Politicians seems to be increasing rather than decreasing.
BTW blaming granpa and granma for everything was once considered to be "bullying."
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)According to SS, if I work until I'm 70 rather than retiring at 66 (my age for "full" benefits), I'll get over $700 more a month. Once you hit 70, there is no more "bonus" money to accrue.
Believe me, I'd rather stop at 66 but I won't be able to afford to.
seattledo
(295 posts)Taking jobs from us.
mtnester
(8,885 posts)but you go right on thinking that while waiting for what is due to you.
Rose Siding
(32,623 posts)wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)She makes under $45,000 a year.
This is so hard on people. They have worked a long time. They are hard workers that don't take advantage of personal days or vacation. They are very responsible.
And it all means nothing.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not age, not health insurance...none of that. It's simple dollars and cents. They want a cheap-o hourly worker instead of a more expensive salaried one.
There's a health care outfit where a friend of mine used to work, that did this kind of money-first thing routinely. They gave step raises, so the minimum wage worker could get up to a magic fifteen bucks an hour. When they hit that number, the management would ask them to become salaried (so they could make them work extra shifts at no extra pay if people didn't show up). If the person refused (and they often would, because if they got stuck staying late, they could make overtime), they found a reason to fire them. Then they'd hire some newbie at minimum wage, and start the process over again.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Single Payer HC would have made a great deal of difference to our society.
Under SPUHC, employers wouldn't have to consider whether or not to pay double the amount of premiums for older workers, as opposed to hiring on younger workers.
The government would pick up the tab so older workers could keep on working.
But under the ACA, the employer picks up the tab. And since they are usually about the profits, they fire the older workers.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)This is the major driver for age discrimination in employment in America today.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Our "inside sales department" was comprised of one 35-year old manager
and three women, ages 52, 52 and 53....
Although we were the highest achievers in the office, sales weren't moving
fast enough for the publisher....
They couldn't fire us on the basis of performance, so they eventually just
eliminated the department, except for the 35-year old!
I looked into an age discrimination suit, but unless you make $250,000 a year,
it just wasn't WORTH it.
You can only sue for ACTUAL damages (real wages lost). So if you get another
job making the same or more money, the damages are not worth the cost of
suing.
I didn't want to bog myself down with lawyers and long term unemployment just
to make a point with these blood-suckers, so I took the paltry, time-sensitive
"severance" they offered and am now looking for a new job.
I was only at the company for a year and a half, but my age and my department
marked me as an "old rep".
Our accounts were divvied up the SAME DAY, amongst the new "outside reps"
that had been recently hired.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)That's awful.
But it's happened to everyone I know. They are all good people with wonderful records. All out. And no good reason given.
George II
(67,782 posts)...but there are no charges for the administrative complaint procedure (depending upon the state).
So companies get away with this all the time because they assume they can get away with it, and in 90+% of the cases they do!
My company (the second time around) said they would give me 4 additional weeks of severance pay if I signed a release. I just ignored the release, and weeks later the HR person called me to ask where it was. I told him I wasn't going to sign it, and got the extra weeks anyway, despite fact that the lawsuit was served.
I really wish that people knew what legal options - companies would think twice before they screwed over their workers.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Contingency based, with fees to come out of a settlement, but you pay UPFRONT, and lawyers are very expensive. Who can afford to pay an attorney for age discrimination?
Many in our society were wiped out financially, so it is not like they can take X amount of dollars out of their retirement savings, in order to do this.
And if you get a new job to pay for the attorney that is suing the old employer, then you won't be eligible for any monetary settlement, (unless you are now working at some chump change enterprise like Mc Donalds and you were making huge amounts of money before.)
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)all court costs.
So I would have ended up paying 1/3 of the "award", which, remember would
be based on actual salary lost, MINUS whatever any current job that I have taken,
plus court costs that would have ranged from $5000 to $15000.
It. Just. Wasn't. Worth. It.
If I was older and didn't plan on going back into the work force, I would have sued anyway.
I can't afford to be unemployed for 2 year to make it worth my while.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Would have out of the situation.
That part was nice.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)unless you are out of work long term afterwards.
I'm too young to roll over an play dead in this economy just to win an age discrimination suit.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)the "Free Market". I am thankful every day that twenty years ago I decide to go off on my own. Through illness and tough financial times it can be a rough ride sometimes but here I am at 58 and still surviving.
I don't need some asshole with a theory or a bottom line. I just need to have faith in myself and clients who appreciate me.
To everyone facing a cold hearted company in their senior years....consider yourself as your next boss.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)I have managed to maintain my reputation and dignity through 30 years
of business dealings with local companies....
With Obamacare, I JUST might be able to afford premiums for health insurance
and go back on my own. (My husband and I ran our own business for 15 years,
until the economy and the cost of insurance premiums sent me off into the
"corporate" world.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>To everyone facing a cold hearted company in their senior years....consider yourself as your next boss.>>>>>
Walk away
(9,494 posts)to try.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)It's hard work but if you get the right clients, they treat you very well. I have a friend and we do it together. We make between 17 and 20 dollars an hour depending on the amount of time we spend there. So far this week in tips alone (Christmas season) I took in $290.00. I've cleaned 6 houses and worked about 12 hours total.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)that I made the right decision. No matter how hard I work or how committed I need to be, the rewards are wonderful.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)As a 53-year-old who is encountering BOTH sex and age discrimination at my job, I would most certainly like to do that, but have no clue as to where to start. I absolutely HATE what I do, so if I do get out, it will mean a complete 360 in terms of career. But I know that I can't spend the next 10 to 15 years doing this -- it will kill me. If not physically, then my soul. I don't think I have ever felt so worthless in a job in all my life, all because I don't come with certain male appendages and am not 25 anymore.
Any advice you can give?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)now is a good time to start thinking about the things you like to do, if you like to work alone or with others and if you need any extra classes or certification to do what you want. Then think about how much more fun and happiness you will have in your life when you dump your crappy job and jump into the scary, self directed, challenging world of working for yourself.
Start planning for the $$$ you will need to live on as you start up. You will never have enough (unless you have a rich uncle) but it pays to make the effort. Actually, as much planning and preparation you can put into your future the easier it will be to stomach a shitty boss or dismal job while you are doing it. That's because at some point (ready or not) your job will become so hateful that you will just jump.
There are all kinds of resources out there. Local Small Business groups, schools for classes and Women's resource centers and the internet can help with info even some funding.
Remember one important tip....whatever it is that you choose to work at, that is who you are from now on. When someone asks what you do for a living you need to tell them and yourself that you working on your goal while you support yourself in your job. When they ask when or why sell your future to them. They might be able to help or encourage you and you'll be one step closer.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)You've given me a place to start.
I've already got a career coach/counselor lined up, who I plan to call early next month. (The thing is, my job gets really crazy with crazy hours from January through March, but I will make time for this.) What you said just confirms my thinking on a lot of this, so I'm going to plow ahead and try to make a better situation for myself.
Thanks again!
antiquie
(4,299 posts)Let her know she is not alone, this has happened to thousands of us; she is still a good person and a good employee. Grieving for death of a career can take seven years.
logosoco
(3,208 posts)My daughter got a job in a high end retirement community right out of high school. She started as a receptionist, and, after 5 years, is now a business office assistant. She recently had some say in hiring a new receptionist, and they chose a woman who was 60. I was very proud of her for that.
I have spent a life in physical intensive jobs that i can no longer do (and I'm not quite 50). Right now I am taking care of my daughters kids while she and her husband are working their way up in the work force. This job will out grow me! Don't have a clue what I will do after that!
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Corporate school "reform" ( i.e. corruption) policies ( promoted by many DEM pols, btw, including Obama and Duncan) provide convenient cover.
They're really after cheap labor, which is generally young.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)get back on my feet at all. The "best" I can do is substitute, which is impossible to support myself.
I was illegally fired nearly six years ago; the incompetent asshole who did it is still employed by the school district but keeps getting moved from one job to another.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)...started to get "soft" ( some might say "bought off" with the avalanche of $$$ from the billionaires.
>>>> the incompetent asshole who did it is still employed by the school district but keeps getting moved from one job to another.>>>>
I've seen it happen here but a MUCH more common tactic is to make the 50 +ers resign by creating a hostile work environment just short of the legal definition of hostile work environment.
That's done w. bad performance evals ( after 20+ years of raves), classroom micromanagement and interference in pedagogy from people who understand neither children nor learning.
No 50+er wants to drop dead at her computer collecting "data" or have a stroke from the stress created by Danielson-type classroom micromanagement. If there's any way he/she can retire, they'll do it.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)and try to starve you into "resigning" in lieu of a dismissal, which of course is actually a dismissal since you are already deprived of a job. It's not a real resignation. Districts love to do this because they save on the hearings, but, more important, the agreements not to sue save them a ton of money. Sometimes they can even get out of paying unemployment insurance.
They tried that crap with me of trying to starve me into resigning, but I wouldn't do it because I didn't do anything to even warrant an oral reprimand, let alone a firing. The moron who did it didn't even know what the law was. I believe she assumed that because this state was "right-to-work," that meant I was an "at-will" employee, but of course neither applies when you are under CONTRACT. She was an idiot and got bailed out. HR put her up to "investigating" me. They wanted to screw me out of my full pension benefits after she fired me and rigged the hearing process in their favor.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)USPS. Union was not worth a damn. Union steward best buddies with head of management. Filed an EEO and was forced to 'retire'. Not fired, they covered their ass. Union and management.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I served on a federal jury a couple years ago - a union member who sued the union for failing to defend his interests.
We found that he was correct, and fined the union sharply. Not sure exactly why they did that, but they did.
Response to leftyladyfrommo (Original post)
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crazylikafox
(2,754 posts)Most people can't afford to retire at age 62.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)I was fired age 58, after 19 years. I had 2 real interviews, always went to the younger guy.
One phone interview went really well until the interviewer realized who I was. They wanted someone 'that wasn't going to retire too soon'. She almost hung up on me, promised they would get back to me, never heard from them.
Someone the other day argued that age was a protected class. I challenged that. Only if you're rich enough to hire a lawyer that gives a damn. If you were, you wouldn't need the job anyway.
They could do undercover ops to bust these guys, like they do for selling liquor to minors. But then, it's a victimless crime, right?
Response to crazylikafox (Reply #17)
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Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
starroute
(12,977 posts)It's theoretically only people in a supervisory position who are considered "exempt" from overtime provisions. Basically, the idea is that the bosses make their own decisions about what time they need to put in to get the job done and nobody is keeping track. If she's got a 28 year old supervisor who is forcing her to work these extra hours, she's clearly not in a supervisory position herself.
Of course, this has come here on other threads and I get the impression that businesses are getting away with murder when it comes to categorizing everybody but the part-timers as exempt. (And making sure the part-timers never get close to the 40 hour limit where they'd be owed overtime.) But still it'sl something she might look into.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)That is what I am- non-supervisory salaried personnel eligible for overtime. I am lucky my company does that, some don't.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Such as the vast majority of the IT industry.
Awknid
(381 posts)But then I am in the architecture field and everyone I know works at least 75 hrs per week. And the older they get the more hours they put in out of fear of being canned. It's a horrible nightmare!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)So many of us are in this position. And when the business world has been done chewing us up and spitting us out, then we find the government ripping the safety net out from underneath while the banks and courts strip away the pensions we had worked for. And we have a generation or two behind us who seem to think that this is just fine and dandy.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)A rude awakening is coming.
StatGirl
(518 posts). . . and all too typical, sadly.
Two things that she might look into:
1.) File an age discrimination complaint with the EEOC (even if nothing happens, it's on the company's record). If this has happened with other older people, she should see if they will join her.
2.) Look into the rules about exempt vs non-exempt employees. If she doesn't meet the rules for exempt employees, they must pay her overtime, and it might be retroactive as well. (And the employer doesn't get to decide whether she is or is not exempt; that's up to the federal government.) More information here: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/
EC
(12,287 posts)Document any nastiness or unreasonable requests (like the social events requirement) at least then she can prove hostile environment and collect unemployment while looking. And who knows what these companies that do this put on her record as reason for dismissal - it could be something that eliminates her chances of ever finding employment in field again. This has been happening for the last 20 -25 years. When I was in management, if the upper management decided someones pay didn't "fit" with the budget anymore we were to document every little thing so the upper management could put together a reason to fire. It's very cut-throat anymore in the name of efficiency.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)when the office politicians tried to railroad me or stab me in the back.
Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)I worked for the same company for 15 years on software product A, running on an operating system I was expert on, written in a language I knew well enough to teach, and a database I could troubleshoot in my sleep. Always got excellent/superior reviews. I was to 'go to' guy in my dept. Then, at 58 years of age, I got transferred to a completely different department, requiring a 600 mile move, and put to doing trouble shooting on product B, running on an O/S I didn't know, written in a language I couldn't read, and I database I had never worked with. I was given 1 week of training and put on the phones.
Suddenly my reviews were crap. Well, with no training, no documentation, and no mentoring, I had a hard time troubleshooting. Imagine being asked to check textbooks for errors, when the textbooks were written in a foriegn language that you didn't speak and no one was willing to teach you. 2 months after my 60th birthday I was 'let go'. Funny thing was ALL the older employees had been disappearing.
Not worth sueing, so took the severance and that was the end of my working career. Thankfully, that was when unemployment ran for 99 weeks and it got me just to age 64 so I took early SS.
Corporate profits and to hell with the employees.
calimary
(81,220 posts)Glad you're here. Stories like this make me wish somebody WOULD sue. Send a little pain and suffering back up the food chain and make 'em spend the money they were stealing from you by screwing with you - by having to hire and maintain a lot of lawyers. I have nothing against a business or a company making a profit. But when it's through sheer exploitation and rip-off of their employees - employees, let's remember, whose work and dedication HELPED GENERATE THOSE COMPANY PROFITS. If they're gonna treat their employees that way, then I say whatever it takes. All bets are off. Time to chip away at their precious damn profits when those profits come at their employees' expense.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Please look into that angle and see if she can sue for OT after they cut her loose. She should NOT quit - they'd love that - and she needs eto start looking asap. She must document every convo, email, remark etc. Have a lot of other over 40's been let go?
sinkingfeeling
(51,445 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)She needs the unemployment.
MsPithy
(809 posts)Keep track of every time your job description changes. Keep track of everything your supervisor says to you, including date and time for everything.
This might not help, until you file the lawsuit.
cstanleytech
(26,283 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)She is the social director. They have completely changed her job description. And required that she take a bunch of courses that she will never use.
And like a lot of us, she isn't nearly as good with a computer as the younger people are.
I tried to work at a Title Company after I got fired and found that I just couldn't do it. I didn't have the computer skills. And I couldn't catch up in 2 weeks like they thought I should be able to.
Being older and forced out of a job you were really good at is just so humiliating. It's just an awful experience to go through.
polichick
(37,152 posts)RobinA
(9,888 posts)when I was 43 I got laid off from a corporate job I had worked at for 14 years. I was pretty OK with it, changed course, used savings to get a Masters and am now happily in the career I set out to be in way back in college.
My friend from that job is 60 and just got laid off. I thank god every day they laid me off back then instead of now when I would not have had time to start over. I can't imagone being in her position. She was no where near ready to retire, they still have a kid in college. Not to mention, who the hell can retire early, let alone at 60. I don't know what she is going to do.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)This is all too common these days. Happened to my ex after 14 years and always good reviews at that company. He was then 55.
Unfortunately, there was a Supreme Court decision that unless they come up to you and put in writing, "We're firing you because we think you're too old" it is almost impossible to prove age discrimination.
Self-employment is not necessarily an option. A lot depends on what work you formerly did.
Taking SS at 62 is always a possibility, but the hit you take over the long run is huge.
Plus, the complaint that Boomers aren't retiring fast enough is somewhat valid. But the reason they're not retiring is that when they started work they thought there'd be a pension after 40 years, and midway in their working life the pensions disappeared and 401k's showed up. Some companies totally mismanaged those accounts and so now, when they thought they'd be set for retirement, they have to keep working.
I will say that I noticed about 15 years ago that the X generation tended to be saving carefully for retirement. I sincerely hope that they, as a generation, will be better off as they hit those years.
I will also add that every time I read these stories I'm grateful that I never actually had a career, so when I needed to re-enter the workforce at age 55 and the end of a marriage, taking entry-level jobs wasn't so bad. Plus, at least in my experience, they're readily available even to older workers. It's a totally different world for someone like your friend.
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)and ask them why with your credentials and experience, corporations suddenly can't hire you but they sure can find H-1B/L-1 workers to take your job or outsource your job to cheap labor overseas.
Hell even send your resume to your state reps and senators too.
Time to hold the Neo-liberal advocates accountable and give fodder to progressive advocates.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)You're a good friend, I think we all go through job losses on our own. It's important that we realize like you do, that we are all in this together.
REP
(21,691 posts)The people I know in tech in their 40s (and 50s) are getting raises and promotions. Must be the area where I am.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)If they live where I do, though, the larger companies are eager to hire anyone who can do the work, regardless of age ... which is of no use if they're not here.
Kingofalldems
(38,451 posts)He worked at a big retirement community run by a religious group, maybe Methodist. Anyway, they brought in this guy who claimed to be an efficiency expert and within a couple months things got so bad my friend had to quit. This is what they wanted in the first place I am sure. Your friend needs an attorney.
George II
(67,782 posts)....she should file a complaint with the state's Human Rights Commission AND the EEOC. What state are we talking about?
There are also organizations that would provide legal assistance at no cost, and lawyers who may take the case on contingency.
It happened to me 20 years ago, they were on the verge of a judgment against me so I was reinstated after 18 months with a settlement that basically covered full back pay.
Have her, and any of your other friends, look into legal action. Keep in mind that most states require that the complaint first be filed administratively first, and then a law suit can be filed.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Hopefully, she rebutted that review in writing, especially since her previous ones had been excellent
That is why she needs to consult with an attorney I would think
George II
(67,782 posts)BIG point is that she was given good reviews up until the bad review, and she is over 40 (and in some states being a woman can be a factor too!
....but there's lots of things not known yet:
Was she let go because of poor performance?
How long was she there?
Were employees kept that were in the same job/department that were younger than her?
If so, were they there as long or longer?
There are legal defense organizations that will assess the situation at no charge, but if they represent the person then they will charge.
Believe it or not, I handled everything myself up until the Human Rights Commission public hearing (spent hours in the library, this was prior to the internet) Everyone involved, including the employer and the Hearing Officer, was astounded.
Amazingly, less than two years after I was reinstated I was let go again by the same person! I sued and prevailed (at a nice settlement)
The important thing to keep in mind is that if the employee had a good record, the employee holds all the cards.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Ezlivin
(8,153 posts)And she can pick up a part-time job for pocket money in the meantime. Or maybe she can borrow $40-50K from her parents or a friend to tide her over. It should be pretty easy.
The thing is, she needs to stay positive. Think only upbeat thoughts. Smile a lot. Be cheery.
This is rock-solid advice from the one percent. The Ones Who Have Made It©.
----------------
Reality? Everything above is bullshit. But this is what the goddamned right-wing would say in response. It's like a parody. It's like they don't even know what the hell they are saying. Remember when Romney made that off-handed remark about borrowing money from his parents to start a business? What world do these people live in?
The problem is they have convinced a lot of the ninety-nine percenters that their day will come if they just keep on paying into that 401K and work hard. It's discouraging to hear a fellow middle-class person bemoan the fact that someone gets a pension or a living wage. Yet that's what we have now.
I truly wish the best for your friend.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)You can go back to school but who is going to hire you when you get out at 63? Nobody.
I think part of the problem is that now employers can just go out on the net and look you up and find out how old you are. And then you are immediatly disqualified. And you never hear back from anyone.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)It was not because of my age. I was a copy editor for a company that published outdoors magazines for all the lower 48 states. The day I was laid off, three other of my co-workers were also let go, including my boss and two editors, and they were all younger than me. Since it was a publishing company, they were losing revenue in ad sales because of the failing economy. So they had to lay people off. As I knew that at my age I would have a slim chance of finding another job, I just decided to retire.
The company was generous with severance pay and I was given $10,000.
LibertyLover
(4,788 posts)I'm looking at much the same problem. Where I work we have mandatory retirement at age 62 for everyone. Well, of course the upper management gets deferments from the Board and works happily until 65 or 70. Peons such as myself don't get extended. But there has been such an enormous amount of complaining that I understand they are going to extend the mandatory age to 67. Of course there will be some quid pro quo. Those of us under the gross pension scheme will have to transfer to the net pension scheme for however long it is until we reach 67. If the announcement comes in the next few months, that means I'll have 19 years under the gross pension and 5 or 6 under the net. That should make it possible for me to support my husband and kid. And bonus, if I work until I'm 67, my daughter will be a senior in high school and thinking about college.
CrispyQ
(36,457 posts)When a critical mass of people fall into the abyss then maybe things will change. Or not.
So sorry about your friend. Wish I was more positive about her future & everyone else, too.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I have heard of this many times before and I have seen it up close.
This is one of the abuses that fall under the heading of "social justice".
Glenn Beck said, "If your church is concerned with social justice, you should run, not walk, out the doors of that church."
These are the filthy Fascists we are up against.
KatyaR
(3,445 posts)I took a promotion at the nonprofit I work for a little over a year ago. I'm now writing grants for the organization and just finished my first year in the position. Unfortunately, because of the economy and the horrible tornadoes we had in May, many donors are either cutting back or giving to agencies that give direct relief to those in need. I have an outrageous financial goal to meet this fiscal year, and I can tell you I'm probably not going to even get close to that number. So I imagine after another year, it won't be long until I'm out the door. I'm 56 and doubt that I'll be able to find another job that pays much more than minimum wage.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)At lest you have some time to prepare.
glinda
(14,807 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)This happened to a relative; she did the above and won her Age Discrimination case.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)I tried to get back into full-time teaching in my late forties, I had a number of years of tenured experience, permanent certification in my state, and many credits beyond a Master's. I'd also saved some very complementary evaluations (which no one hiring was interested in seeing). Unfortunately my graduate G.P.A. ended up about a 3.4 since I finished it up while working and still being a single Mom of a teenager. Nonetheless. I was on the high end of the pay scale due to experience and graduate work. There were plenty of near 4.0 youngsters out there who could be hired for far less. I could sub nearly every day, and became quite good at it. To then add insult to injury, the teachers who routinely requested me (and a few other subs) when they were out, were told that they couldn't ask for a particular sub, since there were more and more unemployed recent graduates on the sub list (although many didn't last, there were always more coming). To be fair, I could have relocated to a less than desirable part of the country. OK for me alone, but more uprooting family-wise. Oh, well, I'm retired now and getting by.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)
And you should be prepared to do so to.
Now, remember under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, age dissemination is ILLEGAL. On the other hand, if you can NO longer do the work do to your age, that is legal grounds to dismiss you (or if your quit to deny you unemployment).
To get around this, the Civil Rights Act set up the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and every state has its own EEOC (sometimes called Human Rights Commission). Under the Civil Rights Act, the Federal EEOC can empower any State EEOC to enforce not only State law on Discrimination but Federal Law. All states have empowered their EEOCs to do that.
Given how hard it is to prove any type of Discrimination, the Law set up a two step process. First, a Complainant (you and your co-worker) must file a Complaint with your State EEOC along with enough Evidence to show you have a Prima Facia (on its face) case of Age Discrimination. You do NOT need proof of Discrimination, just some evidence to show it MAY be occurring. Once you have a Prima Facia case it is up to the Employer to show they had other legal reasons for the acts they did.
Now, what is needed for a Prima Facia case? Something more then you feel you are being discriminated against, but not that much more. Examples of Good Evidence is seeing what others are doing and how they are being treated and writing it down. Writing down what you are being asked to do. If your employer give you anything as to how long they expect your to work, provide it to the EEOC. If you have to work more the 40 hours a week and not get paid for it, write it down (dates and times are important, the EEOC will have a hard time using a statement like "I work 60 hours a week", but can use, on Monday I worked from 8 am to 8 pm, on Tuesday 11 AM to 8PM, on Wednesday Noon to Midnight, On Thursday 8 am to 8 pm again, on Friday Midnight to 6 AM, on Saturday she was off, on Sunday noon to 6pm". That is 60 hours. She can said this has been her typical schedule for many months, but the EEOC want some hard data before they will accept "this has been going on for months". The more weeks the better, but after awhile you will see a pattern emerge and that is what the EEOC will want to see.
Another Aspect is what she is doing compared to younger co-workers. Is it the same? and if different how?
Now, what a lot of Employers do, is put different employees in different classes of employment. Thus when someone files with the EEOC and say X is doing the same job as I am, but less hours and less work, the Employer comes back and say X is doing a completely different jobs and thus you can NOT compare your job with X's job. At that point the EEOC has to have the evidence (hopefully given to them by you as you file the Complaint), that the job Classification may be different, but the actual work is the same.
You have to also keep those evaluations and talk to your co-workers about they jobs and their income. Employers often tell Employees it is forbidden for them to discuss pay or job duties, but you will NEVER see this in writing. The reason for not seeing it is writing it is illegal. Such a rule is considered an Anti-unionization rule and thus an unfair labor practice and thus illegal under Federal Law covering not only union workers but non-union workers, even if no effort is being made to unionized them.
Now, you also need to get with her to discuss this problem with her and to work together on this problem. You also need to get other co-workers involved. You need to ask co-workers to meet so they can discuss these problems. In that discussion bring out those evaluation sheets and the pay sheets and compare them. Tell your co-workers it is legal for them to talk about such things.
Now, employers will do all they can to prevent such talk while in their place of business. Thus you have to tell your co-workers that you would like them all to come and meet. Tell them they do NOT have to come, but you want to talk about how management is treating their employees. Tell them you believe age dissemination is occurring and want to discuss it, even with co workers in their 20s and 30s.
In the days before everyone started to drive to work (And that is only in the 1950s) people would walk to work. While walking they would talk and decide to meet in bars (prior to the 1930s, Social hall, Churches and other community social halls and meeting places. Thus most efforts to form a union started out in bars, Social Organizations, Beneficial groups and Churches For these are places people would go to in the same Community and given people had to live close enough to work to walk to work, co-workers all tended to go to the same bars, social organizations and Churches (or if they did go to different ones, the number of such places was quite limited). This permitted co-workers to meet quite often after work and discuss work. When unions were finally formed in the 1930s, the Unions built Union Halls for such meetings, thus Protestants did not have to go to a Catholic Church to discuss union matter (or vica versa), and Social Organizations no longer had to open they "Secret" meeting place for the union meeting (or people who supported prohibition go to bars). The 1950s was the height of unionization in the US, various reasons have been given for the decline in unionization since the 1950s, but that people had adopted a Car center life style that permitted them to move to the suburbs is rarely given as a reason, but it destroyed the ability for employees of one employer to get together after work to talk shop.
And lets me make it clear, you need to talk shop. I do not know your total situations, but while an union would help you in this situation, it is way to early to think about forming one. You need at least 75% support for a union before you even think about forming one (Once you start the actual unionization effort, management will hire experts to prevent the unionization effort and thus you will see massive fall off from the 75% support level during the period up to the unionization vote. Ideally 90% with none of that 90% signing do to pressure from their co-workers (i.e. they want it for themselves). In a unionization push, Management will have the employees attend all types of Anti-unionization meetings with all types of data, all done on company time. The Union will NOT be able to counter this for the Union will NOT be permitted to talk to the Employees while they are working and management will do its best to make sure the employees are kept apart as much as possible. One threat Employers like to make is that if the business unionized, they will close the business. Walmart is noted for this, and in fact has done it in Quebec when its stores decided to join a union. It is NOT an idle threat, and employees often take that threat as a threat to their job and vote NO to a union on that grounds alone.
While, it is way to early to talk about unionization, that does NOT mean you can not meet after work. I would discourage meeting doing work, even doing lunch, for management will listen in. But a quick comment as you pass each other, or during lunch or as you walk to and from your car may be enough to get them to join in a meeting. Do not expect 100% turn out, a lot of people will say yes, and then NOT show up, but you have to plan for 100% just in case they do.
Now remember the purpose of the meeting is to discuss work. Discuss it, including your complaints about management. See what management is asking of the other employees. Write it down (you do NOT have to name names, but if they agree you can use they name use it).
One using names: If you see X and you compare yourself to X, then they is no reason NOT to use X's name in your paperwork to the EEOC. On the other hand if X tells you something, then do NOT use X's name unless it is expressly demanded, unless X told you you can use X's name. You have to protect your co-workers, that is one of the duty of being a co-worker (and the key to unionization if you go that route). No protection of your co-worker, you will not get their co-operation. You need their co-operation.
Now, once you have data, then file an Age Discrimination claim against your employer, for then you have enough data to force them to state why the additional work was placed on you and that such a request for you to do extra work was reasonable.
Now, I noted that your 62 year old co worker was on "Salary". Salary is only for management or other professional employees. Who can be put on Salary is consistently litigated, but rarely by union personal (the Union generally agrees who is exempt and if they is a dispute a grievance if filed and resolved by the Labor Relations Board. This most of the cases involved non-union employees.
Here is a Labor Relations "Fact Sheet" on Salary. Notice if someone is earning less the $455 per WEEK, they can NOT be put on Salary: $455 per week times 4.1 weeks in a month comes to $1855 per month, or $23660 per year ($455 times 52 weeks in a year). This comes to $11.77 per hour if we assume a 40 hour work week
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17g_salary.htm
Please note there are other requirements to be on "Salary" For example a "Professional" is exempt ONLY of the following apply:
Learned Professional Exemption
To qualify for the learned professional employee exemption, all of the following tests must be met:
The employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not
less than $455 per week;
The employees primary duty must be the performance of work requiring advanced knowledge, defined
as work which is predominantly intellectual in character and which includes work requiring the
consistent exercise of discretion and judgment;
The advanced knowledge must be in a field of science or learning; and
The advanced knowledge must be customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual
instruction.
Primary Duty
Primary duty means the principal, main, major or most important duty that the employee performs.
Determination of an employees primary duty must be based on all the facts in a particular case, with the major
emphasis on the character of the employees job as a whole.
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_professional.pdf
If she can show that she is NOT an exempt employee, she should file with her State Wage and Hour section of her State Department of Labor.
Let me add one more legal fact, The Statute of Limitation in Discrimination cases is only six months. You have six months from the date of the act of discrimination to file a discrimination lawsuit. If you file it late, your case will be dismissed.
Now, filing with your state EEOC stays the statute of limitation, what I mean by that once you filed, it can take years for the EEOC to make a finding, but that is NOT added to the six month period. i.e if you filed within the six month period, but the case is not heard for two years, you are still good. The Time period after filing is not added to the time period before filing. Remember you can also file BEFORE you have any evidence, thus file as you gather evidence if you are close to the six months rule.
Tanuki
(14,918 posts)I wish there were some way to archive it all by itself to help others who may need this valuable information at some point in the future.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)I did that after you made your post, but it is an important point people need to know.
LittleGirl
(8,282 posts)thank you for taking the time to type that all out. I've copied it and saved it for future reference. Cheers.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)I did that after you made your post, but it is an important point people need to know.
LittleGirl
(8,282 posts)I've copied the edit portion of your post. Very much appreciated for the heads up.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... the retirement age needs to be lowered to age 60, or even to age 55. There has to be a governmental reaction to The Corporation's tactics. If Capitalism isn't working, then the government (We the People) need to step in.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)to strangle these little middlemanagement fuckers the second they start up with their new, bright and shiny pitch for 'more hours at less pay, and you oldsters be sure to keep up' we'd all be better off.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)If they have no more ethics than to take a job wiping out other people's lives and working for a corporation that doesn't give a shit about anything but the bottom line - then they deserve whatever they get.
Sooner or later the table will turn and that person will be on the receiving end.
Everytime i've seen a company decide to go with a management change and hire some young, totally ruthless young person it is the beginning of the end for that company. Or it's the beginning of the end for every employee in the company. They lose everyone that knows what they are doing.
I feel a lot of rage against current day employers. I just don't know what to do with the rage. I honestly could watch those guys gt hit by a semi and just go "It couldn't have happened to a nicer person" and walk away.