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CK_John

(10,005 posts)
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 07:22 PM Dec 2013

Treaty by definition includes foreign nations and when did we start letting the public

in on the discussions.

I don't think Franklin or FDR or any president/representative of our government would bring in the public without the consent of all the parties.

I can't recall any prior type of behavior.

The Senate and the public will get the final draft when its ready.

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
2. You can't recall? Can you recall an instance where they DIDN'T involve
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 07:58 PM
Dec 2013

the Senate or public or when there was NO transparency...or is this all assumption on your part?

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
3. How about pretty much always.
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 08:17 PM
Dec 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Arms_Limitation_Talks

Those talks lasted for years with many political changes and constant updates given to the public.

But the North Atlantic Treaty was done in secret. NAFTA was done much more publicly, CAFTA for the most part nobody cared about but was more public. I even wrote Congressman Barrow about that one.

But the TPP is a first in my lifetime. Never before has a treaty been so secret. Normally they leak and discuss various potential paragraphs as the wording is worked on. That's why the SALT and START treaties took so long to negotiate. That was Reagan's chance to do his trust but verify line which he took every chance to deliver for six years.

That was why everyone was furious with Reagan after the Iceland meeting with Gorbachev.

So yes, it is normal to negotiate and notify the public as to the conditions of a treaty before it is signed and sent to the Senate for ratification.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
4. Even if you were right about "letting the public in on the discussions"...
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 08:57 PM
Dec 2013

...(which you are not, see Savannahmann's reply)... but even if you were, there is still the issue that our Representatives and Senators are not in on the discussions, while 600 corporate hacks from the private sector are. Do you really not have a problem with that? Do you even believe in representative government?

I find the process of negotiation for the TPP odious in the extreme. I hope it dies a quick death in the House and/or the Senate. The last thing we need is more of a corporate stranglehold on our government, to the point where they are writing our treaties now. NO THANKS.

Igel

(35,274 posts)
7. What's your take on the TPP?
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 09:17 PM
Dec 2013

I lot here tend to think that it's a bad idea and argue quite strongly against it and provisions in it.

Is this something that should be negotiated in secret until it's given to the Senate?

The public's not in on the discussions. We eavesdrop and make comments. If anybody wants to listen to the public--which is usually divided in opinion, whatever the topic--they can. They don't have to. We can't really make them listen to us.

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
9. Previous post.
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 09:35 PM
Dec 2013

For the 1946 mindset harping about the TPP, they should learn to count first.

Since we produce very little of what we want or need and our population is only 300 million consumers vs ! billion in India and 1 billion in China we are no longer the most valued customer we once were.

We are still a player but we don't command terms like we did just a few decades ago. It's time to get real, I'm sure the administration is doing the best it can and it will not cost us jobs because there are no jobs to lose.

Cyber-era productivity can not produce enough jobs for us or any other modern economic system. TPP is a Hail Mary situation to stave off economic ruin for a while.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
8. Fall off the wagon again, Bill? Go back to Hillary and apologize.
Wed Dec 11, 2013, 09:18 PM
Dec 2013

Third-way NAFTA tripe sucks monkey balls, Bill.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
10. I was thinking about your thread this morning.
Thu Dec 12, 2013, 02:07 PM
Dec 2013

I think I figured out the problem. It's a problem with point of view.

The point of view is important. I and many here operate from the point of view that the elected Representatives, which is what all elected positions are, Representative of those who elected them, are supposed to govern with the consent of those that put them there.

This is why so many of us have such issues with the rampant unIntelligence Agencies behavior, the most recent is the turning on of webcams to spy on people. If I elect you to office, I am not the employee, you are. You work for me, and will continue working for me so long as you continue to represent me and the rest of the voters.

We call it the House, or Congress. But it is the House of Representatives. The Senators are no longer selected by the Governors of the states, to act as ambassadors from that state to the Federal Government. They are elected and represent the people of the state to the US Senate. The President is not the Commander in Chief of the people, just the Military. For the people he is the elected head of the Federal Government, and he (she one day) is the representative of the people of this nation. When the President speaks, it is with the voice of the American People, not just his (her one day) opinion or ideals. The President speaks for all of us, especially when dealing with Foreign Governments. But for that statement to be true, the President must inform us of what he is saying in our name. Otherwise we are not the ones who elected him, we are the ones ruled by him. One is the truth, the other is a RW lie. But negotiating behind closed doors with absolute secrecy slammed down on the process makes the RW lie look a bit more true.

I love President Obama, voted for him, donated to his campaign. I take issue with some of his policies. Because that is my right as a citizen, to speak to my Government, those who represent me, and tell them what I think, what I believe. That is the right of the governed, to inform their elected officials and the public at large what we think.

They work for us. We elect them, and pay them, and for their programs with our taxes. They work for us, and are answerable to us, the people. For me, that is two Senators, a Representative in the House, and the President on the Federal side. They aren't supposed to keep everything secret from us.

The acting group Monty Python famously mocked King Arthur in the movie Holy Grail. But one bit of truth slams out of that movie to strike us all in the hearts. When Dennis explains the source of true political power.



Consent of the masses. We are the masses my friend, and we are the ones who give or refuse to give our consent to be governed. Yes, involving the public may drag the debate out some, but then at least the public is informed, and able to give its consent. Backroom deals may be a way to move things along in Washington, but it removes the consent that the Governed should give.

Right now, the first we'll hear about the treaty is when the Senate starts to debate it. We have seen when Congress takes a short amount of time to consider the situation what happens. We get unconstitutional abominations like the PATRIOT ACT. The more time we take to consider the issue, the less chance we'll make a catastrophic error. The catastrophic error is still possible, but it gives us more time to consider the matter, and to make an informed choice. SALT and START were treaties we entered into with eyes wide open. Because we had months and even years to consider the implications. NAFTA took more than a year to negotiate, and we had dozens of news stories about Mexican Trucks rampaging on the road with lunatic drivers incapable of passing any kind of drug test. Or drivers with unsafe unmaintained equipment. CAFTA was talked about some, but most people imagined it would lower the price of produce from Central American farms. Few realized it would crank up the sweat shops and have children in Nicaragua working fourteen hour days to sew jeans for us to put on our pathetic assess.

Amigo, it is normal to put things out for us to see. The spring it on us as a done deal is never a good thing, even if you trust the President implicitly, he is a man not a deity. We are human, we make mistakes, we don't fully consider some things. Or we may decide those things are not relevant to the issue at hand. Or our thinking may be out of date and not consider the newer technology available.

But in the end, it is a matter of point of view. President Obama, the Senators from Georgia, and John Barrow work for me and all the others in the district, the state, and the nation. I am only one voice, but if you want my support, you have to talk to me, and tell me what you're up to. If you don't, then my support and consent is withheld.
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