"Affluenza" sentence vs. sentence for 14 y.o. black teen for participating in a robbery

[TalkingDog]

Last edited Sun Dec 15, 2013, 11:16 AM - Edit history (1)

On edit: I read this story first thing in the morning and conflated the two cases. Apologies.

http://breakingbrown.com/2013/12/rich-white-teen-gets-off-with-probation-after-killing-four-people-while-driving-drunk/



Black teens, however, aren’t nearly as lucky when they come before the courts. Kuntrell Jackson, who is black, was 14 years old when he took part in a robbery that ended with the death of a store clerk. Even though Jackson was not the trigger man, he was tried as an adult sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Evan Miller, who is also black, was 14 when he was convicted of murdering a man he was attempting to rob. He was also sentenced to life without parole

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Said Judge is obviously deranged

But residing in a state where derangement is considered a positive trait for a jurist.

Please secede, Texas. Your sane people are welcome to emigrate to blue states that are not run like geopolitical Thunderdomes.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Aw, c'mon, Manny.

I know you'e (sorta) kidding, but I think the Texas Blues oughtta stay & fight. They could maybe even have a blue state in 10 years or so. Think Wendy Davis, think minority voters. Think Jim Hightower. Remember Ann Richardson & Molly Ivins.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Texas has/had many, many awesome Liberals

But the depth and breadth of The Crazy is overwhelming to me, particularly before my first cup of coffee.

Starting coffee infusion now.

[Jackpine Radical]

8. Appearances can be deceiving.

Before the whole Walker thing, I thought Wisconsin was a fairly sane place, so who am I to throw the first cheese curd?

[marble falls]

40. Manny, its worse than you think. I live in Tea Central, Texas. Coffee will not help......

Like Cornyn isn't RW enough, he has a Tea challenger. The Teapublican has a Teabilly challenge. So I anticipate a second Ted Cruz in the Senate.

We are so gerrymanded I do not believe that confidence will ever be restored in participatory democracy in Texas. Only 11% of registered voters re-elected Rick Perry.

So you understand how bad it is, I am a Republican who will be voting an almost straight Democratic ticket again, as I have since voted for Clinton in his second term. The problem is only made worse by how many offices are Tea Party with no Democrats running against them.

Conservatives don't have to run and they are the minority. All they had to do was generate a general feeling the uselessness of government to suppress the vote. And their voters are fired up on "getting our country back". They've caused a lot of us main-streamers to to passively give up.

So as well as Democrats I vote for, the occasional genuine GOP - occasional - I vote a lot of "none of the above".

Maybe the coffee might work - bump with a bit of bourbon first.

By the way - what do you make of an option on the ballot for "none of the above"? If nota wins the election is reheld or if none of the candidates get 51%, a runoff is held?

[LisaL]

17. Said Judge had nothing to do with Kuntrell Jackson's case.

Kuntrell Jackson is in Arkansas, not TX.
Do you want Arkansas to secede as well?

[intersectionality]

21. As someone who fled Texas after 25 years for the great NE...

I am okay with most of the south seceding. They're the problem. I cannot tell you how awesome it is to live in a place like NY, where I started out collecting food stamps as an underemployed worker and was able to find my way to a lower-middle class wage in two years. The place I grew up in Texas has a median income of $10k and its prospects of economic development are dwindling because those wasteful frauds are destroying the land where I had roots so they can pull up natural gas. The water is gone. My county will be more like the dust in the air than the soil on the ground soon. If they don't secede, we're definitely going to be stuck with the dead weight of ignorant policy makers that currently exist in the south based on this water scarcity problem they've created through their thoughtless agricultural and economic choices. And it's not like they're stopping. I also haven't had my coffee, but Manny was not far off with his comments, no matter if he'd like to walk them back.

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

33. Texas has been wonderful to me.

I wouldn't move back to the northeast until they fix that winter problem. Much of every state is f@#&ed up. New Jersey? Wisconsin? Houston is a great city full of great people. Like me.

[marble falls]

41. Except for Harris County Sheriff and Houston PD, Houston is a fairly progressive city.

[Penicilino]

3. You left the word "death" out of your title

When I read the title of your thread, I imagined a case where teenagers robbed a house, period. Although burglary is a crime, it is not a crime deserving of life without parole.

Then I read "that ended with the death".

Now I'm not as outraged. If I wished to make the case that this judge is derange and a overreacting, I would have left the "death" part out, too.

[proReality]

5. You might want to reread since there are two different stories

in those two paragraphs.

[intaglio]

6. You left out the part where the boy was "not the trigger man"

but, hey, selective reading is par for the course in these cases.

[LisaL]

18. Under felony murder, if murder is committed during felony, it doesn't matter who is a trigger man.

[dsc]

23. last I checke dui is a felony

and the affluenza teen caused a death while committing that felony.

[LAGC]

25. DUI is only a felony in most places if its your third time caught in 5 years.

It's a misdemeanor offense otherwise.

And there's a big difference between killing someone with intent versus accidentally while under heavy impairment.

I'm not saying the DUI kid should have gotten off with the slap on the wrist that he did, but comparing these two cases really is apples to oranges.

[dsc]

26. where is the intent to kill in the robbery example

nowhere. I don't think either should be in jail for life, but of the two, I think the drunk driver did the worse thing.

[LAGC]

28. I don't disagree.

I'm just saying that the law doesn't see it that way. "Mens rea" is a longstanding principle of jurisprudence.

Someone knowingly and intentionally aiding-and-abetting a felony where someone gets killed is treated much harsher than a misdemeanor offense ending up in an unintended manslaughter.

I'm not saying the prior is deserving of a life sentence or the latter is deserving of probation, but that's how it works. It is what it is.

[tabasco]

35. The intent to commit a felony that is "inherently dangerous"

+ kill a person while committing said felony = felony murder.

Hope it helps.

[dsc]

37. and drunk driving isn't dangerous

or how about those who steal pensions causing the victims to have heart attacks why aren't those felons faced with this rule.

[marble falls]

42. Under the law stealing a candy bar for the third time can get you twenty years, too. Sometimes ....

the law is screwed up and blanket charging all participants in a crime with the worst of the actions of one of them is generally wrong, too. Why don't all lottery ticket winners get to share the prize of the winner - they all participated in the lottery?

[W T F]

7. The point that you are missing is that this same judge gave 10 years probation to a rich white kid..

For vehicular manslaughter after his attorney argued that he was too affluent to serve jail time. [link:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/14/us/teenagers-sentence-in-fatal-drunken-driving-case-stirs-affluenza-debate.html?_r=0|

[LisaL]

15. Not the same judge.

Not even the same state. So there is no freaking need to blame TX for everything.

[marble falls]

43. Ted Cruz, Rick Perry, Louis Gohmert, John Cronyn, Ken Anderson, Joe Barton, Steve Stockman ......

I'm a Texan, too. There's a lot of crap going on in our backyard. If we're going to charge everyone along with the trigger-men, you and I are guilty, too.

Steve Stockman who's in a primary against Cornyn says this stuff:

1) ”Our campaign bumper sticker: If babies had guns, they wouldn’t be aborted.”

2) ”The government shut down is to save America!“

3) ”Waco was staged to steal your guns!” Almost 20 years later and he is just as enthusiastic about guns, even voting to allow teachers to be armed at schools.

4) ”Sex ed is corrupting the children!”, “Our children have been taught that…any type of sex is a valid outlet for their emotions. They are taught that the problem with sex is not that it is wrong to engage in homosexual, bestial, underage, or premarital sex, but that it is wrong to do so without protection.”

5) ”Don‘t protect ‘gender-changers.’”, ”This is a truly bad bill. This is helping the liberals, this is horrible. Unbelievable. What really bothers — it’s called a women’s act, but then they have men dressed up as women, they count that. Change-gender, or whatever. How is that — how is that a woman?”

6) ”Impeach Obama.”

[gollygee]

9. So one kid was a part of a robbery where he didn't kill anyone

and the other kid was a drunk driver who did kill 4 people. And you think not mentioning "death" in the second case means something when that kid didn't actually cause a death, but the first kid caused four of them.

Interesting.

[99Forever]

11. Selective read much?

Enjoy your visit.

[smirkymonkey]

10. That is total bullshit.

What a racist f**ing state.

[zaj]

12. Why does the title say "Affluenza judge" when the article never says that?

There is enough objectionable content in this area of our justice system that inventing more is unnecessary.

[kcr]

13. You're right. It looks like he was tried as an adult and that's why he got life

The "affluenza" case happened in jeuvenile court.

[LisaL]

14. That's extremely misleading.

Kuntrell Jackson's case wasn't even in the same state.
So there is no chance in hell it was the same judge.

[TalkingDog]

22. Mea Culpa

It was too early in the morning and I misread the article.

[exboyfil]

16. Money statement from judge

"The Star-Telegram reported that the judge said the programs available in the Texas juvenile justice system may not provide the intensive therapy Couch needs. His parents had said they would pay for him to go to a $450,000-a-year rehabilitation center near Newport Beach, Calif."

If the report is right, the judge admits that there are two systems of justice and also indicts the Texas system for not spending dollars on rehabilitation. If you are rich you get the rehabilitation system. If you are poor you get the system that she states does not work.

[packman]

38. $450,000 A YEAR

Gawd, that's about $9,000 a week or $1,285 (+ or -) a day. I hope he gets laundry service for that and will they leave a chocolate on his pillow each morning? How the poor dear will have to suffer. And, will that include surfing lessons at the local beach?
Trickle down justice at work, the rich providing for the rich.

[valerief]

19. Being spoiled is a defense. Being underprivileged is an excuse.

American justice. Blech.

[KittyWampus]

31. you really boiled the situation down to its essence.

[mountain grammy]

20. Two justice systems? One for the rich, one for the poor? Who knew?

The American justice system is one area where progress has been slow at best. The "land of the free" has become the world leader in incarcerating its citizens. This seems to be our best solution for all of society's ills; lock 'em up!

[magical thyme]

24. YOU MAY WANT TO FIX YOUR TITLE, WHICH IS WRONG

Sorry for shouting, but reading that title and the excerpts had my head ready to explode. Then I read the replies and the linked article.

Now I'm ticked at you for misleading us all.

There is NOTHING in that article that says it was the same judge that let the white spoiled killer off. Just because they juxtoposed 2 different cases does not mean it was the same judge.

The situations are from 2 different states, making it exceedingly unlikely that it was the same judge.

That there are 2 systems of justice in the US is bad enough. Please don't make it worse than it already is.

[TalkingDog]

36. YOU MAY WANT TO CHECK THE TIMESTAMP

WHICH SHOWS I FIXED IT 3 MINUTES BEFORE YOU STARTED YELLING.

[NuclearDem]

39. I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOOOOOOOUT

LOOOOUUUUDDDDD NOISES

[magical thyme]

47. I was suggesting fixes which were made right about when I started my post

and I was yelling because I was about the 3rd or 4th person to point out the original, highly misleading headline and the original title had the ability to cause massive numbers of unnecessary head explosions.

[magical thyme]

46. which means I probably started writing my post just before you posted your fixes.

thank you.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Life without Parole for a 14 year old! These people are fucking barbarians

It's absurd beyond description.

[kcr]

34. It is.

I notice how outraged everyone is about this, yet every time a child is tried as an adult, I have to argue with an awful lot of people here over how barbaric this is. This is exactly why this practice has to stop.

[zbdent]

29. strange how a 14 year old (black) kid can be tried for an adult, but

a woman, well into her "adult years", is too immature to be able to make decisions about her own body without having to consult several men ...

[RVN VET]

30. Someone here cited "negrabetes"

as a counterpart to "affluenza" -- I hope to see it used, along with pauperitis and impoverishosis. All 3 conditions are at least as compelling as what kept the rich kid out of jail.

But even without affluenza, the 1% can run you down like a dog and leave you dying in the road -- and still get nothing but wrist-slapped by the so-called justice system of the USA. Lenny Bruce was so damned right, "In the halls of justice, the only justice is in the halls." The only thing he left out was, in the halls justice is dispensed at concession stands, and the cost is "more than you can afford."

But this is why 5,000 of us died in Iraq, another 3,000 in Afghanistan, and 55,000 in Vietnam. To keep America safe for the spoiled rich kids and cold blooded, heartless rich adults -- who, themselves, do not deign to serve in uniform, of course. They all have "other priorities."

[marble falls]

32. The "poor little rich kid" defense. He was born with millions of strikes against him.

[Igel]

44. Jackson was sentenced in 1999.

He's probably been resentenced by now, since the SCOTUS found life sentences for underage offenders to be unconstitutional.

Miller's is a bit different, a bit more hands-on. He and a friend stole baseball cards and some money from a 52-year-old man, beat him with a baseball bat, set his home on fire and left him to die. He's probably also been resentenced. His trial was in 2006.

A lot of sentencing discretion had been taken from judges by 1999. It wasn't uncommon for judges to actually dissent from the sentences they imposed. Don't know about these two cases. Juvy judges have a lot more leeway, both for mercy when appropriate and for miserable judgment.


The amount of outrage over the vehicular manslaughter case, though, also merits attention. It's been treated as a clear outlier by, well, pretty much everybody. It's not "business as usual." Any more than the Jackson and Miller verdicts are business as usual. Comparing extremes isn't a good statistical practice.

Glaeser, writing for NBER in 2000, put together a nice summary of how victim and offender characteristics affect sentencing (although he didn't look at juvy, just adults) in the previous decade or so. For adults, increased wealth meant a slightly higher average sentence although it's meaningless because the result wasn't significant (sure to strike many as counterintuitive).

Race, sex, and other factors were important, with women victims triggering the longest sentences and black (male) victims triggering shorter sentences. IIRC, black male offenders also got longer sentences, so there's a pretty bad skew for race for both victims and offenders. That skew to one extent or another shows up pretty much in all murder stats, but doesn't apply to the outlier Couch case.

[dem in texas]

45. Was it a Jury trial for Kuntrell Jackson

If it was, the judge had nothing to do with the verdict and the sentencing, it was the jury's decisions. I was once in a final jury pool in Dallas County for a young man who drove the getaway car in robbery where someone was killed. The prosecution was asking for life in prison for the boy even though he had never been in trouble with the law before. It was back in the late 90's. The boy look so young that I asked how old he was when the crime was committed. The judge said he was not allowed to say. I was immediately kicked out of the jury pool. I think since then, that you must be told their age. When I got home I looked it up in the local newspaper's online archive and found that he was 16 when the crime was committed. I would have thought he needed to serve some time because what he did resulted in the death of an innocent person, but never, never life in prison.

This affluenza rich kid had a prior history of run-ins with the law and he what he did was so bad on so many counts, he needed to serve some time for punishment.

There was another case in this area, in Desoto in Dallas County, several years back, rich kid driving drunk, crashes, kills passenger in his car. He got off with probation, same way, rich family. He continued to get in trouble, drunk driving, drug and gun possession. Then one night he exited Central Expressway in his Porsche and hit a woman whose car had stalled as she driving home from the late shift at work, she had her caution lights blinking. It threw her car over 60 feet and killed her. She had three young children. The kid finally got the jail time he deserved. Just think, if he'd paid for the first death, he might have learned a lesson and maybe that woman would still be alive and those kids would still have their mother.

I wonder if this is what will happen to the "affluenza kid".