Former Top NSA Official: “We Are Now In A Police State”

[damnedifIknow]

32-year NSA Veteran Who Created Mass Surveillance System Says Government Use of Data Gathered Through Spying “Is a Totalitarian Process”

Bill Binney is the high-level NSA executive who created the agency’s mass surveillance program for digital information. A 32-year NSA veteran widely regarded as a “legend” within the agency, Binney was the senior technical director within the agency and managed thousands of NSA employees.

Binney has been interviewed by virtually all of the mainstream media, including CBS, ABC, CNN, New York Times, USA Today, Fox News, PBS and many others.

Last year, Binney held his thumb and forefinger close together, and said:

We are, like, that far from a turnkey totalitarian state.

But today, Binney told Washington’s Blog that the U.S. has already become a police state."

By way of background, the government is spying on virtually everything we do.

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges.

This is a bigger deal than you may realize, as legal experts say that there are so many federal and state laws in the United States, that no one can keep track of them all … and everyone violates laws every day without even knowing it."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-top-nsa-official-we-are-now-in-a-police-state/5362080

[WillyT]

1. HUGE K & R !!!

[JackRiddler]

2. I'm with this guy and Judge Leon!

Time to deal with reality.

[Tx4obama]

3. Looks to me that he has an axe to grind. And he has been gone from NSA for 12 years.

William Edward Binney is a former highly placed intelligence official with the United States National Security Agency (NSA)[3] turned whistleblower who resigned on October 31, 2001, after more than 30 years with the agency. He was a high-profile critic of his former employers during the George W. Bush administration, and was the subject of FBI investigations, including a raid on his home in 2007.

... left the NSA in 2001 ...

-snip-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Binney

[Matariki]

5. Or he has a CONSCIENCE and understands the dangers of a surveillance state

unlike some folks who post on DU defending NSA

[Hassin Bin Sober]

6. Well at least we know he's not an Obama hater.

Can I like him?

[sabrina 1]

22. He is a person of prinicple and is widely regarded as such. He knows what he is talking about

and yes, like all of us who opposed Bush policies, he certainly does have an ax to grind, an important one.

I wish more people were grinding that ax, particularly the Dems we elected to end those unconstitutional policies who once they were elected, not only did NOT do what this man had the courage to do, far too many of them ended up supporting Bush's policies.

It's interesting that back when he risked his career and his personal life to oppose Bush, the left viewed him as a hero. How quickly some people forget. We were thrilled every time a Republican stood up to Bush back then. And rightly so.

Binney has the respect of most decent people for what he has done and for the knowledge he bases his opinions on. So silly to try to denigrate him when he has earned his reputation as a good man who would not go along with Bush's unconstitutional policies, and I'm glad to see he has not changed his views nor did he allow partisanship to prevent him from standing up for what was right, like some people we know.

[Coyotl]

26. Yes, let's grind that ax and hone it perfectly. How many people are illegally imprisoned?

If people are being illegally imprisoned because they are unconstitutionally spied upon, we have a huge legal problem.

These are the sorts of undemocratic, totalitarian activities that lead to the breakup of nations, the downfall of illegal regimes.

We are on a very slippery slope when the legal system is conning people out of their rights to a fair trial by not revealing the sources of the evidence. That gets cases overturned every time.

[sabrina 1]

91. I am sure Congress will be working diligently to find that out, how many have been illegally

arrested due to these practices!

If only we had leaders who actually took their oaths of offices seriously.

[Eleanors38]

54. FBI raid? Well, grind my ax. Bush critic? Hone it!

[Luminous Animal]

30. Yes. He has an ax to grind against the police state that GWB created. Apparently, you support

that police state created by GWB.

[SammyWinstonJack]

81. Seems it's cool if Obama does it.

[TransitJohn]

45. This post should be unbelievable.

But isn't.

[EOTE]

86. Funny how those who value civil liberties more than their own jobs have axes to grind

when they are attacked mercilessly for having a conscience. I'd have to say I'd have an axe to grind as well.

[frylock]

95. i can't imagine that you can see much with those blinders affixed

[Th1onein]

108. On the contrary, it looks like you have an axe to grind, TX4obama.

I've noticed that every one of your posts are an attempt to discredit those who are reporting on this issue.

Binney is in a position to know what's going on with the NSA. He paid a hefty price for blowing the whistle on them. Sorry, but he's trustworthy.

[Maedhros]

115. There are a group of posters that seem to do nothing else

than jump into threads about the NSA surveillance abuse or drone murder and denigrate those raising concerns over these issues.

I guess that's fine - all of our posting histories do doubt reflect those issues about which we are most passionate. What creeps me out is that there are people on DU who are most passionate about defending the NSA and CIA.

[Th1onein]

117. I've noticed something about them lately.....

The "but his girlfriend is a poledancer and he's got boxes in his garage!" and "You must be a racist!" posts have stopped, for the most part. Now, they are moving on, in typical fashion, to insulting the other messengers, such as Binney. You notice that they NEVER address the real issue, the spying? Never.

[Maedhros]

121. My favorite is the old classic: empty ridicule plus smilie.

Someone might post an interview with the persona-non-grata du jour (e.g. Greenwald discussing federal court ruling on the constitutionality of the NSA surveillance program) and the response from the apologist would be:

"LOL! "

Such insight.

[fascisthunter]

144. yeah, well... fuck them!

seriously... they aren't worth it anymore.

[Maedhros]

155. It pains me, though, to see their smarmy nonsense stand unchallenged.

I don't want lurkers to think that this whole "All is for the best, believe in what we're told" attitude is healthy.

[fascisthunter]

166. I Understand Your Motivation

and I understand their screed has to be challenged. But take heart...most of who post very little these days know their propaganda is transparent, even to those who just read here. Just heed the sentiment..."Fuck them". We are winning.

[fascisthunter]

145. I think you deserve a police state

unfortunately if it happens to you,it will happen to the rest of us.

[hedda_foil]

4. And to think ...

My top reason for voting for Obama was that I was convinced this he, as a professor of Constitutional Law bould restore the primacy of the Constitution.

Shows what I know.

[JimDandy]

10. Some attorneys focus on a particular area of the law not to protect it but to defeat it.

I wanted to believe that someone who focused on Constitutional Law would be working to protect our rights, though.

[savannah43]

15. He was NEVER what could be called a "Professor of Constitutional Law, as if it was his speciality.

He taught a few Con Law classes, as many newly graduated law students do. He is NOT an expert.

[RC]

19. Yeah, me too.

I have been so disappointed.

[BelgianMadCow]

134. That was the prime reason why I shed a tear when he was elected

the first time. Just the idea of a constitutional scholar after the Bush wasteland.

[truebrit71]

163. Yup. Me too. Funny how that "worked" out...

...

[woo me with science]

7. K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R.

Every apologist for this garbage needs to check his or her conscience and humanity.

K&R

[OnyxCollie]

8. I received a five minute scolding from one of my poli sci professors

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 01:36 AM - Edit history (1)

for stating that I believed the US was close to becoming, if it was not already, a totalitarian state.

This was in 2010.

He said we were not a totalitarian state because we could post our views on FaceBook.

Fucking arrogant dickhead.

[markpkessinger]

11. I would say to that professor . . .

. . . that the nature of our police state is that it is very, very sophisticated -- sophisticated enough to know that if they permit the veneer of freedom (such as, for example, continuing to let people believe they can post whatever they want on social networks), by doing so they postpone the day when large numbers of people see what is really going on.

[OnyxCollie]

12. He said that if this were a totalitarian state

the government would have to lock everyone up.

Why lock everyone up? The ignorant and complacent are no threat to authority.

I sat in my chair, gritted my teeth, and resisted the urge to slap him upside the head.

I needed the grade.

[markpkessinger]

13. Very naive prof! n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Many are unfamiliar with inverted totalitarianism

It is denied everywhere, especially universites where many in the staff have no tenure, or hope of one.

[zeemike]

28. Even North Korea does not lock everyone up.

But they do keep them ignorant and compliant with controlling information and fear...same as we do.

[sibelian]

36. He's not thinking of a police state, he's thinking of a slave state like Ancient Rome.

He's clearly a thoroughly ignorant fool.

[woo me with science]

39. I think I read that on DU the other day, too.

[Eleanors38]

58. Point of totalitarianism: you don't have to lock everyone up.

Just convince everyone you can.

[randome]

62. So 300,000,000 people are being cowed? I don't see the evidence for that.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Eleanors38]

83. No. Most don't give a shit, as in most all countries.

It was estimated that in our Revolutionary War a third supported, a third opposed, a third didn't care. And that was in a politicized time of war.

I can't say we have reached a totalitarian state (we are Definitely a corporate state, and probably, as the OP mentions, near a police state), but we can make observations about totalitarianism. One, it is a relatively new form of governance, and two, it is rather banal; in our times, behind the flashbang of carnival media, homogeneity of MSM, and toilet-tongue social communications is a stullifying level of dispirited boredom and detachment.

I do find the NSA's fascination with us at once totalitarian in concept and broadly comical. It's like they know the system can't/won't stop them, but they don't quite know what to do with all the money and guns. Well, some of the guns.

[randome]

88. Well stated!

All this could change in 2014 if we take back the House. It's definitely doable.

I think the Information Age makes for much of today's confusion and homogeneity. It's like the reverse of entropy. Things become disordered over time. Societies become ordered. And with great order can come great injustice. Depends on how fine a line we walk.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Eleanors38]

107. Thank you. In the "golden age" of MSM, issues were national,

and served to legitimize through a national discussion, agendas were set & actions taken. It was a sloppy process and had its own banailty, but we knew what and who we were as a nation.

All that is collapsing.

Now, we don't know what the agenda is or who wants it -- and if that was some how before us, would we even recognize it? Our new social order is so individuated, it per force works against notions of community and nationhood, let alone sovereignty and legislation. You could bitch about the NYT's priorities, but the Innertube? The latest app? And who's gonna bitch with you for fear you violate the thoroughly modern credo: "It's all good."

[rhett o rick]

111. I think it's call a "straw man" argument when you misrepresent an argument then argue against it.

No one is stating that "300,000,000 people are being cowed". How absurd.

With the power the NSA has, they can single out people like Eliot Spitzer and neutralize them.

Now I know that you believe that the authoritarians in our spy agencies wouldnt be unfair, that they would only do what is good and right and that there is a real Santa and he is white.

One of our biggest obstacles in fighting for our democracy, fighting off fascism/oligarchism is the self induced naivete of our fellow citizens. These people apparently were raised to believe that we must have blind, absolute faith in strong authoritarian leaders (sounds a lot like religion).

[randome]

124. Yet no one has been singled out. You are chasing phantoms.

What power does the NSA have? The power of metadata? Sure, that COULD be used against someone. So could tax returns. But we have laws to guard against that happening and we know of no American who has been 'inconvenienced' by the NSA.

I just think time is better spent fighting real enemies instead of imaginary ones. Granted, that's harder, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

128. Apparently you arent keeping up. They have more than meta-data.

"All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges. "

It appears that Eliot Spitzer was outed in this manner. Spitzer was a real thorn in the side of the government. Most likely they used their spy agencies to find something on Gov Spitzer and neutralize him. They can pick and choose who they go after. What a tremendous power in the wrong hands.

There is no bigger enemy than a government that has the ability to spy on it's peoples.

[LiberalLovinLug]

130. Did you read the article?

"...the government is spying on virtually everything we do.

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges. "

"COULD'? Sounds like IT IS.

But I guess to blind authoritarians, if they can't actually see any abuse of authority, haven't met anyone in your small circle of friends and family that has been 'inconvenienced' that way, it means it must be all "imaginary".

Sometimes I am actually envious of those who can live in such a fairy tale bubble. I guess your signature line should have given me a hint.

[rhett o rick]

143. I found a thread that I think you will like.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014677868

And I bet your reaction is, "that isnt happening", it would mean someone is spying on us. Just like the NSA is spying on everyone "isnt happening".

[randome]

148. Why would I discount this since there is clear evidence it is occurring?

Is the NSA using the metadata to blackmail people around the world, as some of the DU conspiracy theorists posit? I don't see that it's happening.

And if the metadata collection is stopped, it will be clear that they are NOT blackmailing the world, so where does that leave the conspiracy theorists? Having vanquished a phantom foe?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

149. The posts shows that there is a market for personal data. The NSA has the capability to get

Americans personal data. I am not saying that the NSA is selling our data, but maybe Booz-Allen is. Or maybe someone like Snowden is collecting our personal data at Booz-Allen. After all they werent very careful when Snowden was there.

The point is that we need strong controls on what the NSA does. It's naive to think they are angels.

[randome]

159. I totally agree about not being naive.

Snowden, however, was not able to get at any personal data, only internal NSA documents. That doesn't mean the NSA doesn't need to be vigilant about keeping a tight control on who looks at what.

I'm sure the recommendations delivered to the President will result in tighter scrutiny and review.

We are all in favor of that, I think.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

160. With respect, you dont know what data Snowden got his hands on any more than I. You dont know what

data Booz-Allen and the NSA have access to any more than I.

You seem to want to believe the best for the NSA and the worst for Snowden. That's just your choice.

I dont claim to "know" what has happened. I fully believe that the intelligence agencies will push the envelope as much as they can. I believe that the FISA system put in place by Bushco is still in place and is run by conservatives that dont give a shit about us. The intelligence agencies and programs under Obama are the same that were under Bushco. I want oversight and I havent seen any evidence that there is any.

Snowden pulled the curtain partially back to reveal that there might be a serious problem at the NSA. A problem that isnt at all hard for me to believe. But his detractors complain about how he pulled back the curtain and try to sell that nothing is behind the curtain. Snowden's job is done. Any mention of him is aimed at distraction for potential problems. Now is the time to prove him right or wrong. And we dont ask the fox if he has been raiding the henhouse.

If you are interested in Democracy then you should be interested in fully investigating all evidence of major agencies like the NSA and CIA possible violations of our Constitution.

[winter is coming]

66. When you have to start an argument with "if this were a totalitarian state," you're in denial. n/t

[tavalon]

101. Indeed

Love your handle btw.

[winter is coming]

132. Thanks. I was a little surprised (and grateful) than no one else had already claimed it. n/t

[tavalon]

100. That is my definition of stress

Smiling blankly when you really want to slap the person upside the head. I've been dealing with a similar stress with my boss.

[Kolesar]

136. & Obama has locked up millions, or tens of thousands at least

!!
Do I need to note ?

[indie9197]

33. Exactly. People think the internet guarantees your freedom.

Is it out of the realm of impossibility that conspiracy theory sites like Prison Planet are actually government-run disinformation programs with a purpose to give the appearance of a free press? Nothing would surprise me and I think anyone would be naive to take things at face value.

[GoneFishin]

46. Circulating preposterous scenarios is a variation of a straw man argument.

If an actual crime scenario can be conflated with a whack-a-doodle theory both can be discredited in one stroke.

So it is conceivable that a site like Prison Planet could be there to set up the straw men for others to knock down.

I have read a number of attempts on DU to conflate unauthorized thoughts with Alex Jones, in an effort to discredit them.

[BlueStreak]

55. Facebook is one of the most powerful tools available to the NSA

The people at the NSA must marvel at how easy we make it for them to monitor us.

As far as that professor goes, a diversity of opinion is essential to any university, but his comment about Facebook was just plain ignorant, and on that basis he has no business teaching others.

[BlueStreak]

57. I swear, if the NSA odffered a new line of dual core, 64GB tracking chips

30 million Americans would be camping out overnight to be first in line to get that thing implanted.

Damned idiots.

[tavalon]

102. Ah, you've been watching Person Of Interest

When I first started watching that, I was surprised at how close they get to the truth.

[savannah43]

16. One lives and hopes.

A lot can be revealed in two years, right?

[Coyotl]

27. Unless, of course, they created Facebook to collect our information!

[sabrina 1]

47. That would not be surprising at all. It was one of the first such forums to ask for so much personal

information before signing up which is why I never did.

[bvar22]

125. No Facebook Account here either,

....for the same reason.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

129. I was asked my name and email address...

That was it. Everything else is optional.

Same as I was asked here at DU. Here's a hint: use a fake name.

I was asked for more information once I started a musician account, however. But they had to verify that I was who I am, and not some random dude making a page with my songs and my name.

[bvar22]

142. Thats OK. You go right ahead.

I still think I'll pass.

[tavalon]

98. Your professor had better hope they don't decide to take down the stage setting

or pull down the curtain. We are being given all the rope they care to give us until they don't feel like it serves them anymore.

[davekriss]

112. Introduce the Prof to Sheldon Wolin

Ask him to counter the arguments in Wolin's Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism. Your Pol Sci professor may soften his criticism after that.

[rhett o rick]

114. Technically he is correct. We are not yet in a totalitarian state per the definition. We may be

headed there, but we have a way to go. There have only been two, I believe, true totalitarian states. One was Nazi Germany and the other was Stalin's Russia.

Now political philosopher Sheldon Wolin believes that we are in a "inverted totalitarianism". See article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

I believe that we have reached oligarchism, and cannot go back. I believe that there is no path back. If anyone disagrees, I would love to learn otherwise.

[OnyxCollie]

119. In order to save face,

(like I said, I needed the grade), I offered a lengthy mea culpa (21 pages) where I attempted to explain myself.

Hello Dr. C____,

I would like to offer an apology to you. Since I was unable to properly define the terms of our
debate, I should have dropped the subject, particularly a subject as sensitive as that one. Instead,
I pursued it to its inevitable, unpleasant end. I also may have given you the impression that this
was the subject of my paper. That is not the case.

The definition of totalitarianism I that I poorly attempted to recite is this:

Totalitarianism is a system where technologically advanced instruments of political power are
wielded without restraint by centralized leadership of an elite movement, for the purpose of
effecting a total social revolution, including the conditioning of man, on the basis of certain
arbitrary ideological assumptions proclaimed by the leadership, in an atmosphere of coerced
unanimity of the entire population (p. 754).

Brzezinski, Z. (1956). Totalitarianism and rationality. The American Political Science Review, 50(3), 751-763.

Brzezinski also offers this:

If one could imagine the entire United States run like some executive department, with its myriad
of minute, and often incomprehensible, regulations, routinized procedures, even sometimes
arbitrariness of officials, one would be all the more inclined to be thankful that the rule of law
(rooted in a traditional regard for the individual) and legislative fears of administrative expansion
(a democratic "irrationalist" feature) act as a check (p. 761).

[rhett o rick]

140. Well dont leave us in suspenders, what grade did you get?

I have had to write explanations for professors after debates in class. The last one was about the loss of the American Dream. She didnt agree with me. Another was with a philosophy professor about the difference between belief and believe.

[ancianita]

9. Like he thinks we haven't known that!! Why is it that no one can quite grasp a reality until some

"authority" pronounces it!! Big deal. Like this guy's opinion is going to validate the reality we've all known for years now.

The "awareness" point of this police state is past, and so is the point of organizing our lawyers, guns and money.

[savannah43]

17. May I suggest that everyone buy a horse, too, and learn how to ride it.

[sabrina 1]

49. I did not know WHAT they were using this data for. I did not know they were passing it along to

other law enforcement entities which led to prosecutions, to hide their own involvement in those prosecutions. Where did you get that information?

We KNEW Bush was using the telecoms to spy on Americans. We opposed it strenuously. We worked hard to get Dems elected to stop them from violating our rights. We won and were shocked to learn that Bush's old Right Wing appointees were kept in place and the policies were NOT ended. But we did not know what they were using the collection of data FOR.

In fact I've been told right here on DU from apologists for these illegal activities that they do NOT use the data, they they are 'just collecting it'. Not just here on DU but by the President himself.

Binney has enormous credibility on this issue. This is SHOCKING news and absolutely requires a thorough investigation like yesterday. It's quite possible that people have gone to jail who should not have as a result of these deceptions.

If you knew all about this, why have you never told us before? And Binney is correct, any country that engages in this kind of oppressive spying and then uses it against people is no different from any other police state. The Stasi comes to mind, even more so now that we know this.

[questionseverything]

151. the info supporting binney's statement came out last august

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/

i read it here at du

[sabrina 1]

157. Thank you, yes I remember that, that they were using the info to funnel to the DEA, but I did not

know, until I read this OP that they were also funneling it to other law enforcement agencies.

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges.

Filling up the Private Prisons it looks like. I've said it before and the more we find out, I do not believe any of this is about 'terrorists' or 'keeping America safe'... I believe all this data collection is to help Big Corporations under the guise of being to 'catch terrorists' (they haven't caught any so far apparently). What would be so egregious about that is they have received BILLIONS of Tax Dollars under the pretext of 'national security'.

To think they are working with State and Local law enforcement also, while claiming they do not use the data, they just store it. And that is just one more lie we have been told.

[questionseverything]

162. the nsa reduces us to

rats in a cage

and it is all unconstitutional

[ancianita]

153. Great! Details! That are impossible to investigate with the PPPP in place, even for judges.

Nice of Binney to wait years. Years. To say all this.

Without Binney's details, citizens would still have known enough to move to end this activity and monitor that it's truly ended, and Monday's ruling is a step closer.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[sabrina 1]

156. Are you familiar with Binney at all? Binney is an NSA Whistle Blower who did NOT wait 'all this

time' to tell us what he knew. He began warning us back in 2001 when he was at the NSA.

He resigned from the NSA when he learned that they were spying on all Americans, violating the Constitution. He's been speaking out about this for years. But was anyone listening to Whistle Blowers about all these crimes? On the contrary, our Government has been PROSECUTING people like Binney.

Latest Glenn Greenwald Scoop Vindicates One Of The Original NSA Whistleblowers

William Binney — one of the best mathematicians and code breakers in National Security Agency (NSA) history — worked for America's premier covert intelligence gathering organization for 32 years before resigning in late 2001 because he "could not stay after the NSA began purposefully violating the Constitution."

Binney claims that the NSA took one of the programs he built, known as ThinThread, and started using the program and members of his team to spy on virtually every U.S. citizen under the code-name Stellar Wind.

Thanks to NSA whistleblower/leaker Edward Snowden, documents detailing the top-secret surveillance program have now been published for the first time.

And they corroborate what Binney has said for years.

I am glad to see him vindicated, proven right finally thanks to Snowden because he was treated the way all the Whistle Blowers who tried to expose Bush crimes have been treated, called a liar, smeared etc. See how some people here attack Snowden and Manning and Greenwald eg. But the more Whistle Blowers who emerge the more all the others are vindicated. It's getting harder and harder to hide the crimes.

[ancianita]

158. Thank you. I'm not familiar with him. I'm now enlightened that he's been a crucial whistleblower.

I was feeling frustrated when the implication came that, yet again, another expert has proclaimed this a police state.

I've been in the mood since Monday to have everyone say "now what" together. I want the awareness dawning phase to be over, that's all. We've known enough long enough to take action to end this and set up better safeguards that are immune to money to be sure we're never spied on again.

I appreciate that collective whistleblowers will vindicate each other. It's important. Yet, that crimes continue to be committed is urgent. I want them to name names. I want this whistleblowing to stop being a trickle. Obama's fired and retired forty generals. I'd like to see more of that happen at the NSA.

If, in what's left of my lifetime, the NSA were torn down and all those employees removed from behind their desks, many lives on this earth would be saved. We have enough of a spying network without them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

Getting tired of years of discovery and outrage and am going to join the rest of the weary populace now.

[sabrina 1]

161. No problem, and I agree with you that people get tired of seeing the crimes exposed only to see

that the criminals are either protected by changing the law to cover their crimes (see the FISA Bill Amendment) or nothing at all is done other than a few Show Congressional hearings and 'panels' set up.

But people can't give up, although it's understandable if they do because sooner or later at least some of them will go that one step too far, not they haven't already, but too for the apathetic population to ignore any longer.

Like you I don't get that excited anymore when crimes are exposed because that not much will happen to stop them and the apologists will be out in force to 'explain' why it is the messengers who are the traitors. I just think there will be a cumulative effect at some point that will finally start a turnaround.

[Snarkoleptic]

18. OK, mine is a stupid little anecdote, but I'm sure there are many more where like it so here goes...

My second career finds me selling fabricated stone surfacing- granite, quartz, marble, etc.

In a moment of snark, I updated my FB status to say I was a "street level rock dealer". I mean what the heck, my friends have a sense of humor...right?

A couple of weeks later, I awoke and noticed that my garbage bags had disappeared form the curb overnight. I searched the internet for (something like) "Why would someone take my garbage bags from the curb?" and was only half surprised to see that the authorities troll Facebook looking for infractions of the law. One of the search results referred to Facebook as "Law enforcement's favorite new toy" (to uncover criminal behavior).

I believe my little joke was scooped up in some NSA keyword search that was then referred to the local authorities. The whole episode made real for me, what was previously an abstaction. This episode has made me feel like an idiot for reading about all of the NSA stuff and then allowing myself the luxury of fun within the reality of spying. This seemingly harmless joke has led me to feelings of anger, paranoia, shame, fear and mistrust as well as to question whether our government has nothing better thing to do.

[damnedifIknow]

35. Same thing happened to me

I put a couple garbage bags in a can and I always set my garbage out the night before pickup and I went to throw something else away and my can was empty. I've also had a cop come to my door asking if I called the police and then saying he had the wrong address but was in no rush to leave as he asked what type of dog I had. Just weird small talk for about 5 minutes.

[FrodosPet]

20. There oughta be a law!

But no more law enforcement, because police are frequently RW tools of the police state, and we don't want to feed the prison industrial complex.

We just need the laws as a placebo to help us pretend something is being done.

[christx30]

21. At this point,

we don't need more laws. We need to get some laws repealed. And we need more criminals like Snowden poking holes in the NSA fabric. We need to make things as uncomfortable for these people as possible. A lot of people need to be fired.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. They're spying on us (and, everybody else) to protect us from tyranny where everybody is spied on.

And, protecting us from traitors who dare to tell us that we're being spied on.

"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.” Albert Camus (1913-1960)

[Coyotl]

24. All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local

[Phlem]

25. Jeezus F'ing Christ,

ya think!!??

-p

[blkmusclmachine]

29. 9/11 was just the Excuse. A Police State is the Goal.

[Th1onein]

110. They started this crap BEFORE 911

They went after Nacchio, from Qwest, because he wouldn't agree to handing them over what they wanted, and the judge suppressed the evidence that they started this whole spying thing right when Bush came into office. From Harper's:

But the documents unsealed Wednesday in federal court in Denver, first reported in The Rocky Mountain News on Thursday, claim for the first time that pressure on the company to participate in activities it saw as improper came as early as February, nearly seven months before the terrorist attacks. The significance of the claim is hard to assess, because the court documents are heavily redacted and N.S.A. officials will not comment on the agency’s secret surveillance programs. Other government officials have said that the agency’s eavesdropping without warrants began only after Sept. 11, 2001, under an order from President Bush. But the court filings in Mr. Nacchio’s case illustrate what is well known inside the telecommunications industry but little appreciated by the public: that the N.S.A. has for some time worked closely with phone companies, whose networks carry the telephone and Internet traffic the agency seeks out for intercept.

The key news here is that the surveillance program goes back to the arrival of the Bush Administration; it seems that the events of 9/11 were quickly taken as a justification for the Administration’s programs—but they was not a causal relationship. And this means, in turn, that the Administration’s characterization of the program, as a hurried response to the disastrous events of 9/11, is a complete fiction.

http://harpers.org/blog/2007/10/qwest-another-political-prosecution/

Combine these facts with the rumor that the Patriot Act was written BEFORE 911 even happened and you really have to wonder about the ideas of MIHOP and LIHOP.

[AgingAmerican]

31. Well, duh!

We have been since Bush/Cheney got in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. In other breaking news, water is wet.

[tblue37]

34. Yes, but fish don't know they are wet. Nor do those living in the

early stages of totalitarianism. I think of that book about the Nazis, They Thought They Were Free.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. We knew, and we still could speak to friends and stuff.

This is reminiscent of my youth. Just that much more harder to get rid off.

[sendero]

37. But we're not in a police state..

.... so stop saying that!

[JoePhilly]

38. I'm sure people reading his article, while sitting in a coffee shop,

using the free-wifi provided there, were very surprised to learn that they live in a police state.

I suspect they immediately sent a group text to all their friends, to warn them.

Just before the black van arrived to take them to the FEMA work camps.

[damnedifIknow]

40. The sad thing is

I doubt they were surprised at all.

[JoePhilly]

42. Now let's ask our totalitarian police state to provide Nationalized Health care.

Because clearly, that's what you want when you live in a totalitarian police state.

Right?

[joshcryer]

41. First world problems.

The UK resembles a police state far more than the United States to any reasonable degree yet it and other EU states, and even Russia, are championed as paragons of freedom.

OK, maybe not literally, but the silence is questionable, to be sure.

[JoePhilly]

43. I get a kick out of anonymous people, using fake names,

on what is basically a free and public website, claiming that they live in a totalitarian police state.

People who live in a totalitarian police state don't post their grievances on public message boards ... unless their goal is to have the government move them to the work camps.

Its a dystopian fantasy.

Might as well throw in a Zombie horde just to keep it exciting.

[joshcryer]

44. The real irony is if we had a absolutely free state...

...racists, rapists, murderers, they could all talk about their deeds without anyone following their actions or being able to arrest them or do anything about it.

"This guy claims he raped murdered 18 girls over the summer, here are the pics."

"We don't know if he did or not this could all be fake."

"But these girls disappeared."

"That's still not enough evidence and anyway it is impossible to track this person down who posted it and who knows it could be fake."

Quite literally the worst shit you can possibly imagine would be anonymously legal, under the auspices of free speech. As soon as you create the ability to go after those people you lose some freedom.

Basically you can't yell fire in a theater.

But would I support absolute free information exchange? Yeah, because there are still other routes you can take.

"This girl appears to be in a warehouse by the sea."

"Let's check it out."

2 hours later:

"We got DNA, it appears to match the girl. Mr. Anonymous isn't so Anonymous now is he?"

"We appear to have male DNA too. And it's coming up as Mr Asshole with an offender background. He's toast."

It still makes it extremely difficult to catch predators and other malcontents. It is a very very challenging issue and there's no simple answer.

[Th1onein]

109. Oh bull. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......

It's a freaking duck.

And we got a duck here, buddy.

[sabrina 1]

51. So long as they don't exercise their first Amendment rights to protest, or become active in trying

to expose corruption on Wall St or the government, in a successful Police State the data is collected so that it can be used against citizens who are not compliant, who are not apologists for the corruption of the police state, things like War Crimes, eg, or Wall St crimes, (that one will really get you in trouble in a police/fascist state), they will hold on to the data and you will be fine. But once they have it, it is a weapon they can use anytime it is needed.

Did you think that police states round everyone up and throw them in jail? No, that is exactly what they do NOT do because if they did, the entire population would rise up against them. It is necessary to keep the population divided. They keep up the illusion of 'protecting' the people and conduct smear campaigns against those who speak the truth, look for ways to turn them into criminals so that the rest of the population is careful not to get themselves into such a mess.

You really need to study how police states actually work.

[NuclearDem]

56. Put it much more eloquently than I did.

A police state has to portray itself as being on the people's side for it to work.

[JoePhilly]

59. Now let's have our police state control health care.

[NuclearDem]

61. You're on the wrong axis.

Healthcare is an economic left/right issue. Civil liberties and police functions are a civil authoritarian/libertarian issue.

A person can want single payer healthcare without wanting a police state.

[JoePhilly]

63. The authoritarians would use your

medical records against you.

A totalitarian government is TOTAL, it doesn't exist in some areas and then turn itself off or ignore other aspects of government.

By it's very nature it is pervasive and invades EVERY aspect of your life.

The idea that it would not leverage the health care system, not choose who lives and dies, is ridiculous.

You can't have it both ways.

[NuclearDem]

65. That argument makes no sense at all.

If I were advocating for keeping the police powers and single payer at the same time, yes, you would be right.

But I don't, not at all. I want the intrusion into personal lives stopped and reigned in, while at the same time advocating for single payer. Roving surveillance is not the same thing as managing medical records.

[JoePhilly]

69. If we CURRENTLY live in a police state, the last thing you would want, at

the SAME TIME, is for that government to control health care.

Isn't that what's being claimed? That we NOW live in a totalitarian police state?

Think about it .... The same folks who claim that the US is CURRENTLY a police state, also claim that they want Nationalized Health Care RIGHT NOW.

The reality is that we do not live in a police state, people know that, and that is why people are very comfortable calling for Nationalized Health Care right now. No police state, national health care, great idea.

What's happening is that the perpetually disgruntled are prone to exaggeration, and excessive hyperbole, often on a massive scale.

And in this case, it breaks through the logic barrier, and they haven't noticed the logical conflict they've created for themselves.

[NuclearDem]

76. You've demonstrated consistently you don't know what a police state is.

And now you're off making this ridiculous argument about police state abuse of medical records (which, by the way, is very easily refuted by the coexistence of the NHS and the UK's broadened police powers).

We're clearly not going to change each other's minds here.

[JoePhilly]

79. A police state, with control of the health care system, would

never need to kill you in the street. Never need to arrest you.

They simply wait until you go to the doctor, and the doctor would diagnose you with a mental illness that makes you a threat to yourself and others.

Then you'd be sent to a mental hospital for "treatment".

That's what a police state would do.

btw ... the doctor would have no choice in the matter. Not if they did not want to end up in the same mental hospital.

And if you don't understand that, its you who have no idea what a police state is, or how it behaves.

[Bobbie Jo]

150. Thank you.

Sheeeesh.

[NuclearDem]

52. A police state doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil to be a police state.

We have heavily militarized and trigger happy law enforcement, an inverted justice system, and an intelligence apparatus that covertly violates civil liberties.

Having the aggressively obvious police state that you seem to think we're talking about is the opposite of how one functions. Aggressive, open brutality only causes the population to want to fight back, and going after creature comforts (wifi and coffee shops in your example) only further agitates the population.

That's not how a police state forms and operates. It works by creating and targeting classes of "undesirables" (illegal immigrants, anarchists, communists, drug users, foreign terrorists) and convinces the rest of the people that it needs more power to fight these subversive groups. That was the whole point of the "first they came for..." poem.

[JoePhilly]

60. Ah, so we're pre nazi Germany again.

Ok.

Those making these claims use these terms specifically because they want to claim the worse version of what a police state would be.

And when challenged on it they act like they mean something less evil.

The US is no where near being a police state and those making that claim immediately lose credibility.

And THEY are not coming for anyone.

[NuclearDem]

64. So what's your definition of a police state?

Because leaving activists and protesters to languish in the criminal justice system on trumped up charges and making their lives hell for months or years at a time is a thing now. Police departments wielding weapons of war against protesters and the general population is a thing. Warrantless wiretapping, uncontrolled intelligence apparati, an inverted justice system, an offshore gulag where prisoners rot for years without trial and face torture...

What is it going to take for you to think "police state"? Midnight abductions, murder in the streets? Because that's never how a police state has operated in its early days. Not in the Soviet Union, not Nazi Germany, and certainly not in post-9/11 America or Western Europe.

Do some reading on how these systems actually form and operate. Seriously, you don't seem to have the slightest idea about these things.

Also, if you were trying to suggest I was falling into the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy, I'll point out it's not a fallacy to make comparisons between police states.

[randome]

68. How many activists were mistreated, do you think? Less than one percent maybe?

It's not condoning mistreatment to recognize that not every LEA operates with the utmost care to those it polices.

'Warrantless wiretapping'? Where does this come from?

'Uncontrolled intelligence apparati' -there are plenty of controls, including the FISA court that has often sent warrants back for changes.

The 'gulag' is still a black eye for America, no doubt about that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[JoePhilly]

71. By freaking out, they ensure that answers to your questions

never get discussed, because the questions don't get asked.

They wouldn't last 10 minutes in an actual police state.

[randome]

74. Railing against an imaginary police state is easier than dealing with the real problems we face.

Democracy is a messy business.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[JoePhilly]

77. It reminds me of ...

... how the Tea Party nuts think that they are just like the founding fathers, protecting us from tyranny.

Its one of the weird intersection points between the far right and left.

The far left sees a totalitarian government, but one which they'd let run national health care.

The far right sees a totalitarian government, but one which they'd allow to build up the largest and best equipment military the world has every known.

And neither group spots the logical flaw in those positions.

[randome]

84. A very interesting intersection, indeed.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[hueymahl]

131. That is a very astute observation

Just curious, and I mean this sincerely, I assume you view yourself as center left based on the above observations (and being on this site, as opposed to freepervile). Would you agree that your position is it is ok for government to run national health care and maintain a large military and universal spying apperatus?

[NuclearDem]

73. Not every single activist has to be brutalized for the police to make their point.

All it has to do is make examples out of that less than 1% to discourage people from coming out.

Yeah, the WWT reference is dated, but it was a thing not less than a decade ago.

If FISC is "control" over the NSA, then it's uncontrolled. FISC is a joke as far as oversight is concerned; it operates in secrecy, hears one side of an argument, and has done nothing but expand the NSA's ability to collect.

[randome]

75. I think one of the recommendations for the NSA is to have a 'defendant advocate'.

I would bet that most of the recommended changes will take place. That's hardly indicative of a police state, though. More on the lines of a democracy where representatives listen to their constituents.

Congress could have made these changes long ago if they did their jobs and actually monitored the NSA.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[NuclearDem]

78. Except it took a document leak to even start the debate over the NSA.

The government got caught, and now they have to quiet the outrage.

Which essentially makes my point. Once people know about how much power the police state has accrued, they get pissed off to the point that the government can't ignore them.

[randome]

82. Well, they got 'caught' using a legal warrant. I guess we won't agree on how important that is.

And they were 'caught' doing their jobs, which is to monitor foreign communications. Change the laws, rein them in, but I don't see that it accomplishes anything of substance. It's still a postulated, imaginary enemy instead of the real ones people face every day.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[NuclearDem]

87. It got caught with a general warrant for Verizon's American customers.

Not foreign surveillance. It's only been justified as constitutional because of a court ruling from the 70s, well before the dawn of modern communications.

It needs more control. It may be legal, but that just means the law needs to be changed.

At any rate, I appreciate your candor.

[JoePhilly]

70. Your hyperbole is showing.

[tavalon]

103. I sense that you agree with Professor Stupid

May they never decide to take down the window dressing. And the fact that I can write that and not get hauled off is part of the window dressing. Of course, it really doesn't matter what I say unless JoePhilly is actually Pakastani or Palestinian or Iranian. There, that should be enough buzzwords.

Let's enjoy our five minutes of fame, JoeIranian.

[fascisthunter]

146. no, I'm home using paid wi-fi, drinking a beer and smoking a cigar

laughing at your attempt to belittle the obvious.

[GoneFishin]

48. We can't be in a police state. We have coffee, and wifi, and stuff.

And we are still allowed to talk to our friends too.

In real police states all that stuff is impossible.

[NuclearDem]

50. Cue the milk pic!

Last edited Thu Dec 19, 2013, 10:55 AM - Edit history (1)

[FatBuddy]

80. One of Mussolini's first programs

was to outlaw coffee shops.

and friends.

[LondonReign2]

138. And health care!

Yup, that's Joe Philly's argument. Oi

[randome]

53. It's hyperbole like this that make people tune out.

And makes it less likely for real change to take place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Harmony Blue]

72. It isn't hyperbole

sorry but that is the truth.

[JoePhilly]

85. If we are CURRENTLY a police state ...

why do we also want Nationalized Health Care.

A totalitarian police state would use your medical records against you. If you were a protester and started to have influence, they'd have no problem having multiple doctors step forward to declare that you were mentally ill and a threat to yourself and to others.

We would anyone on the left, who believes that we are CURRENTLY a police state, simultaneously also be calling for a system of Nationalized Health Care?

If we were actually a police state, we on the left would be TERRIFIED that the government would take over the Health care system. We'd be against it.

But we aren't against it. We want it now, even with the current government.

Its Hyperbole.

[sabrina 1]

90. It's only hyperbole to those who believe they are safe from being targeted. But to the thousands

who are arrested for simply exercising their constitutional rights, (I know, you don't like the Constitution. Neither do many of our leaders), have wondered how the 'authorities' knew whose apartment to raid etc, it is far from hyperbole.
'
And that is how a police state works. So long as you behave yourself they will leave you alone. But you find out pretty quickly how NOT hyperbolic Binney's statement is when you step out of the line THEY drew and dare to challenge, eg, the Wall Street Criminals or the War Criminals.

They never lock up everyone as some people seem to believe, they make examples of a few hoping to keep the people divided (that's been done very successfully here) and hoping to scare those who would, if they lived in a truly free country, be willing to speak out.

The massive crack down on the peaceful OWS protesters was a demonstration of just far gone this country is. Military tactics and military grade weapons used against unarmed, peaceful protesters??? That was an example of democracy to you?

[randome]

92. 'Thousands'? More hyperbole.

You do realize that once Occupy stopped infiltrating other cities' public parks, the conflict with law enforcement ended. Or do you contend that there are still nefarious forces 'rooting them out'?

Or are you saying that everyone associated with Occupy is now too afraid to stand up for their rights?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

94. Thousands of OWS protesters were falsely arrested and jailed. Are you calling facts 'hyperbole' now?

And since when is using public parks and squares that citizens tax dollars pay for, 'infiltration'? See each time you respond to me you only further prove my points. The very fact that you think that tax paid for public places are off limits to the very citizens who pay for them, demonstrates how you have accepted the police state propaganda.

And no, the conflict with law enforcement is far from ended. Haven't been following things, have you?

And you just agreed with me without even realizing it.

Let me repeat it for you:

'So long as people behave themselves and don't go out and exercise their Constitutional Rights, as you said, they will leave you alone. That is a police state.

What do you think will happen when they go out again, and they will, and try to exercise their rights again?

Right, they will be brutally attacked by government forces as they were before.

Since you would never think of joining those who are utilizing their supposed 1st Amendment rights, as I stated above, you feel safe. Which is why YOU view Binney's statement as hyperbole, which is exactly what I said.

Thank you again as always, for helping me make me my points.

[Maedhros]

118. Here in Portland the FBI raided a house and arrested squatters involved in anti-corporate protests.

The search warrant included "anarchist literature" among the items to be seized:

http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/fear-of-a-black-bloc-planet/Content?oid=6619511

If a Federal agency can declare political literature as evidence of a crime, then we are well down the slippery slope.

[sabrina 1]

122. I guess we don't have to wonder where they got their info anymore.

This, if true, should end these policies with prosecutions of those responsible. But I don't have much faith in that happening since those who could begin that process are also complicit. And yes, we are well down the slippery slope.

[GoneFishin]

67. Just ignore it and it will go away.

Besides, what does a 32-year NSA veteran who managed thousands of NSA employees know about the NSA?

[L0oniX]

93. Police state and Democracy can not co-exist.

[Blue_Tires]

96. There doesn't seem to be a lot of remorse from Binney, considering he was one of the architects...

[randome]

97. Every couple of years he comes out with some new 'revelation' about the NSA.

He was definitely mistreated but it was the Obama admin that dropped the charges against him. He seems to like being in the spotlight.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[OnyxCollie]

104. Before you get all judgmental... (too late)

Inside the NSA’s Domestic Surveillance Apparatus: Whistleblower William Binney Speaks Out
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out

WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, it was pretty hard for me to believe that my agency, that I had supported for so many years, and the country, of course, and the laws that we had, including the USSID 18 that has—which was our guiding documentation internally in NSA about not spying on U.S. citizens—when they started doing that after 9/11, it was just hard for me to believe they did it, but it—the evidence—I mean, I had direct evidence that they were doing it, so I just couldn’t—I couldn’t stay there. I couldn’t be a party to that. And what I did after that was tried—I went to the intelligence committees first to try to get them alerted to it, so they would try—address it. I mean, their responsibility was to prevent the intelligence community from spying on U.S. citizens, based on the FISA laws. And after that, when that didn’t work, I even tried, with Diane Roark and others, to address this issue to the Chief Justice Rehnquist of the Supreme Court. But we weren’t able to do that. And so, eventually, I tried the—as well as Kirk Wiebe and I, we both tried to get to the Department of Justice inspector general’s office and alert them to this and say there are ways to do it without violating all the U.S. citizens’ privacy. But that wasn’t what the government wanted to do. I mean, when Qwest, the CEO of Qwest, was approached in February of 2001—that was before 9/11—to give over customer data, it was all—it was still targeting domestic spying, and that was call records they were trying to get from that. So, the—

AMY GOODMAN: And talk about that for a moment, Bill, the former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio, the only head of a communications company to—the only head of a company to demand a court order or approval under FISA.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Yes, and the consequence for him was they targeted him, and now he’s in prison. So, I mean, they succeeded in prosecuting him. But what it told me was that the intent from the beginning was to do domestic spying, accumulating information and knowledge about the U.S.—the entire U.S. population. So I thought of that as a J. Edgar Hoover on super steroids, you know? It wasn’t that he had information and knowledge to leverage just the Congress. You have information and knowledge to leverage everyone, judges included, in the country. So, that’s why I got so concerned. I tried to work internally in the government to get people to do something about it, but that whole process failed. So what it did was it alerted them to what I was doing, and they targeted me with the FBI, and they attempted to falsely prosecute me. Fortunately, I was able to get evidence of malicious prosecution every time, so they finally backed off trying to prosecute me.

AMY GOODMAN: If you would briefly, though I don’t like to have you relive this, tell us what actually happened to you, with the FBI raiding your home.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, they came in, and there were like 12 FBI agents with their guns drawn, and came in. My son opened the door, let them in, and they pushed him out of the way at gunpoint. And they came upstairs to where my wife was getting dressed, and I was in the shower, and they were pointing guns at her, and then they—one of the agents came into the shower and pointed a gun directly at me, at my head, and of course pulled me out of the shower. So I had a towel, at least, to wrap around, but—so that’s what they did.

And then they took me out and interrogated me on the back porch. And when they did that, they tried to get me—they said they wanted me to tell them something that would be—implicate someone in a crime. And I said, well, I didn’t—I thought they were talking about someone other than the President Bush, Dick Cheney and Hayden and Tenet, so I said I didn’t really know about anything. And they said they thought I was lying. Well, at that point, "OK," I said, "I’ll tell you about the crime I know about," and that was that Hayden, Tenet, George Bush, Dick Cheney, they conspired to subvert the Constitution and the constitutional process of checks and balances, and here’s how they did it. And I talked about program Stellar Wind, all the data coming in, about how they managed to graph it and also how they bypassed the courts. They didn’t tell the courts about this program, and they didn’t solicit any approval from the courts. And they also only told four people initially in Congress, that were the—they were the chiefs and deputies of the Intelligence Committee. That was on the House. That was Porter Goss and Nancy Pelosi. I don’t remember the Senate side. But when you do that and—I mean, Senator Rockefeller, when he got briefed into those programs in 2003, said he wasn’t capable of understanding any of it, because he wasn’t—he wasn’t a technician, he wasn’t a lawyer, so he couldn’t do anything about it. That was in his handwritten note to Dick Cheney. So, I mean, it was clear they were doing something that was unconstitutional and against any number of laws that existed at the time.

[Blue_Tires]

105. ok...Thanks for this....

[Mosaic]

99. Some definitions and other info might help see more clearly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

I've already spoken on this, it's time for others to address this problem. It's good to see healthy discussion. Nobody wants a police state, and waking people up can be the best way to fix this thing before we make the wrong turn down that dark road.

[Mojo Electro]

106. It's getting very scary.

"All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges."

If they have information that they want to use against you, but that has been gathered through illegal means, they will whitewash and stonewall with regard to the source of the info and nail your ass to the wall. The 4th Amendment has been thrown out the window.

[DeSwiss]

113. ''Told ya!!!''

- K&R

[KoKo]

116. Recommend!

[Uncle Joe]

120. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, damnedifIknow.

[damnedifIknow]

127. You're welcome but I don't like reading it

It's depressing and right before the holidays isn't real good timing.

[colsohlibgal]

123. Checks And Balances

We need review to do all this way above the blank check the FISA court has been. If not this power will continue to be abused. Hoover was legendary for basically blackmailing people with what he was able to pick up from snooping - it was how this that evil twisted little toad stayed in power for so long.

Over 99% of us are no threat so why must someone snoop on us?

If this isn't curtailed it will come to a bad end.

The old Franklin thought is right, if you trade liberty for security you'll get neither.

[Amonester]

126. Looks like the 0.0001% couldn't care less about neither 'our' liberty or security.

They've got 'their$' so $crew the 99.9999% rest of us.

Looks like these 'totalitarian$' couldn't care less about their co(ngre$$)rupt mouthpieces to cheat, rig, cover up, and lie to all, including the POTUS, about what's really going on.

They rule, and they will only tolerate ephemeral dissent (for show). But as soon as they could face any organizing embryo of revolt, they will use all their ill-acquired power$ to squash it as fast as they can.

[whatchamacallit]

133. I'm going to do myself a favor and bypass the nauseating pro-tolalitarian responses K&R

[Kolesar]

135. then you are making good use of your day

be proud

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

137. Knock, Knock, Knockin' on Stalin's door. K&R

[damnedifIknow]

141. Seems that way

illegal to WASH MY CAR in MY DRIVEWAY

&hd=1

Even with the proliferation of digital cameras providing endless streams of seemingly irrefutable video evidence, there are still many sides of any given story that go unknown. And that is most likely what's going on with this video. What we do know is that YouTube user JokRKidd has a neighbor that really doesn't like him, and that he lives in a city with some questionable laws. How questionable you ask? More questionable than the laws that used to make it illegal to park a pickup truck in the driveway of a private residence at night in Coral Gables, FL."

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/16/ny-police-officer-ticket-car-washer-own-driveway/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000588

[sadoldgirl]

139. Unfortunately it looks grim

I just joined DU, because this issue is too important to ignore. I lived for years next to a totalitarian country and yes, it was more obvious then. The people were encouraged to spy on each other to betray any false move to the government. People, here, who cannot find that dispute the idea of totalitarianism. What the heck, in these days of electronics the people in power - and those are not just politicians - don't need that betrayal anymore. During our marches against the Vietnam war the surveillance was also more obvious. All that is unnecessary now. As a matter of fact, if you give people a certain amount of news and a somewhat decent style of living, you will keep the population quiet. However, anyone who might be able to rock the boat can be ridiculed or made invisible. And that is dictatorship. Look at that former southern governor, who still sits in prison, and who has not been pardoned by Obama. Look at the tactics against Michael Moore. The modern totalitarian state is way to sophisticated for may to see.
That is just my simple opinion.

[Betsy Ross]

152. Don't be sad.

Welcome to DU! I can say don't be sad old girl, but it could easily be my handle. I just don't encourage sadness.

[fascisthunter]

147. I Noticed Something Very Interesting

While those "guffawing" others concerned with the potentiality of a government abusing its powers, they have no problem with the powers being enacted and used against the potentiality of our freedoms of privacy... just think about that! Verrrry interesting....

[knitter4democracy]

154. Now? This started under Bush.

It's been going on awhile. Just search the archives here.

[ancianita]

165. Or here. Posted upthread, but it bears repeating.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[woo me with science]

164. K&R

[woo me with science]

167. kick