To All You Gay Defenders - Leviticus is Very Clear

[lame54]

Lev 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Lev 19:23
And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

Very clear indeed

Oh, here is some other stuff it read:

Lev 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Lev 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

[cleanhippie]

1. Using the bible to refute the bible is an exercise in futility.

The bible is worthless as the foundation or an argument. There's no need to stoop to the level of those that choose to do that.

[CJCRANE]

2. If that's where they get their ideas from

then it seems entirely consistent to use it to refute them.

Maybe they'll eventually move on to arguing using reason.

[hobbit709]

6. If they were using reason, they wouldn't use that book to start with

But I enjoy using their own book to confound them.

[CJCRANE]

7. Exactly

Fundies rely on the fact that most people haven't read the Bible (or whatever holy book they use) in depth.

They then claim to speak on behalf of God (which is blasphemy according to most religions). It's a simple bullying tactic.

But like you, I think it's necessary to refute them using their own material, to show that they don't have all the answers.

[hobbit709]

10. One time I left a group of Pentecostals standing there with their mouths gaping.

I told them that they were wasting their time, that I couldn't be saved.
They gave me their usual spiel about accepting Jesus and it would be.
I said"Wrong" and asked for their bible. I read them Deuteronomy 23:2-a bastard shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, not even unto the tenth generation.
I said my parents were not married when I was born so there it was. I handed them back their bible and walked off. They were still standing there when I turned around and looked about a half block away.

[liberal_at_heart]

22. I have fundies in my family. All they do is come back with more scriptures to refute your scriptures

It is an exercise in futility.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

24. .... or picking on Farmers.

As a gay man, I wouldn't mind a little heat off us. But what if they start picking on farmers and cattle ranchers. Will somebody think of the farmers and ranchers????

[safeinOhio]

3. To release the aroma...

just stir the pot.

[RKP5637]

4. The bible, to me, has always been a collection of babble. n/t

[lame54]

8. But it sure is fun...

[seattledo]

28. But they do it

If they don't understand circular logic to understand why they're wrong to do so, why can't we just do the same back?

[cleanhippie]

37. Do you really think fighting ignorance with more ignorance is a good idea?

[mucifer]

5. Yeah it reminds me of a Jewish Talmudic tale:

A Pagan asked Rabbi Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot. Rabbi Hillel replied, "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole Torah; the rest is just commentary. Go and study it." http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm

It's the basic do unto others.

That story had a big affect on me as a kid. I always really liked it. Still do.

[Gothmog]

26. I also love this story

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Leviticus loves slavery!

Leviticus 25:44-47



44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.


Inherit them as property. Got that? Property.

[el_bryanto]

11. what is the point to this argument? are you preaching?

Or taking a knock on Leviticus?

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

14. The point is that folks claim they 'follow the Scriptures' but the Scriptures require all sorts of

behaviors those folks don't follow, would not follow and many which if followed would lead to arrest and imprisonment in today's world. Big fun for them to say 'it says gays are bad' while they overlook the other parts, that codify heterosexual behavior, diet, clothing, tonsorial style, bathing habits, farming regulations, you name it. Just like all the Church Ladies who dress up in finery and sneer at gay people ignore the parts that say women must never wear finery, must never speak in public, never question any man but her husband and him only at home. The redacting of all materials that apply to them and the repetition of materials that apply to others is hugely dishonest, and those folks who claim they 'live by the Bible' are full of mendacity and bullshit to an extreme degree, unless they are refusing blended fabrics, selling their daughters to the highest bidder, stoning to death smart mouthed kids, keeping strictly kosher diets, etc.
The NT says 'sell all you own and give it to the poor if you want to follow me'. Do any of them do so? Why no they don't. Instead they ignore that and skip to 'gays are bad' later in the book, wedged in next to' women must be silent'.

[el_bryanto]

34. correct me if i am wrong - but does that apply to liberal Christians as well?

if a Liberal Christian says "I believe in treating as I would want to be treated, with dignity and respect," are they equally hypocritical?

Bryant

[OffWithTheirHeads]

12. I think the problem is these psuedo Christians can't read.

They got as far as Leviticus and gave up. They never made it to Matthew.

[madokie]

13. I'm happy

I gave up religion 40 some odd years ago.
I say to each his/her own but for me it wasn't meant to be.
I'll die a heathen

[treestar]

15. Definitely agree that no old testament prohibition

should be taken literally today, even by the most devout Christian. It's just an excuse for their bigotry when they do it.

[ananda]

16. The bible is made up of various parts ..

.. written at different times, in different places, by different people.

It's just a work of fiction, with each part reflecting the views and biases
of the writer, just like ANY work of fiction, historical or not.

[seabeyond]

17. leviticus was rules for the priest, not to the population, firstly. nt

[Ken Burch]

41. And, as we've learned recently, if ANYBODY needs rules, it's priests.

Look what they get up to without 'em.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. So what?

Using a 4,000 year old moral code is a little out dated.

I think the writing in the Bible is beautiful and ancient. But you can't use it as a moral code for our times.

[LiberalElite]

19. does this mean

we can eat circumcised fruit?

[Glassunion]

39. At your own peril.

[LiberalElite]

43. oh holy $*@% -

what are those?

[Glassunion]

46. Peppers would be my guess.

Just don't ask my google search term to find it.

[sibelian]

20. That first verse reads DEEPLY metaphorical to me.

"Thou shalt keep my statutes" followed by a list of primarily meaningless mixings.

It reads to me much more as a poetic way of saying, "Don't mix my laws up with other people's. Obey ME only" than as actual laws against seed mingling, cattle breeding muck-ups and sartorial faux pas...

[msongs]

21. harry potter has 7 books and jesus half of one. is Harry 7X more god then? nt

[Ken Burch]

40. Well, you never read about Jesus playing Quidditch.

(granted, He could turn water into butter beer).

[Egalitarian Thug]

23. This isn't your monthly meeting of the ignorant tight-ass club.

It never gets old to me.

[Gothmog]

25. The Jewish view on this is far more subtle than as set forth in OP

The quotes set forth in OP are from the Torah or the Old Testament for Christians. The Rabbis have been studying the entire Torah for a long time and have a more subtle view. Reform and to a lesser degree Conservative Judaism are very accepting of homosexuality. Many in the Reform movement look on the passages in a historical context and have decided that homosexuality and shellfish are acceptable in today's world and that slavery and other practices sanctioned by the Torah are not acceptable.

Even the Orthodox draw a distinction between the condition of being a homosexual and homosexual acts. http://www.jewfaq.org/m/sex.htm#Homosexuality. As noted, some Orthodox are beginning to question any prohibition on homosexuality due to the fact that science has established that homosexuality is not a choice. Here is a thread concerning an Orthodox Rabbi who makes a good case as to why even the Orthodox should change their position. http://www.democraticunderground.com/113733882

One cannot read the Torah without taking into consideration all of the analysis done on these words or sections by Jewish scholars. The fact these provisions of the Torah are being given interpretations that go beyond the actual words is important.

[libodem]

30. I love the written depictions

Of Rabbis discussing whether turning on a light on their holy day constitutes 'work' or not. They really go through deep philosophical discussions on every aspect of life. It is not any arbitrary snap decision. It is poured over.

[Gothmog]

32. I worked on a kosher chili cook off for the entire city

You have not lived until you spent three plus hours discussing kosher rules. The Orthodox spent most the time arguing with the Ultra Orthodox. BTWj, jalapeños are inherently kosher. We were up to version 16 of the rules for this event.

I admire the passion and dedication of these Rabbis and scholars on all aspects of their study

[libodem]

33. I envy you your experience

It sounds enlightening. Good on you. Hope the cook-off was s grand success. No cheese on that chili, I'll wager.

[Gothmog]

35. It was a good event

It was fun seeing the entire Jewish community at one event.

[Motown_Johnny]

27. That book, among others, should be removed from The Bible.

It is a way for bronze age tribesmen to control other bronze age tribesmen.

I understand why people in the iron age might still consider it relevant, but it no longer is. If I want to eat shellfish then I am going to eat shellfish and no God who is in any way just or loving is going to care.



We need a newer, more modern version of The Bible.






Just for context:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11%3A9-12&version=KJV


^snip^

Leviticus 11: 9-12
King James Version (KJV)


9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

[cvoogt]

29. well..

maybe the prohibition on shellfish was God's way of slowly introducing vegetarianism, one class of animals at a time. That would be loving though hardly just

[Motown_Johnny]

31. then he is taking his sweet ass time getting to mammals

Unless the Hindus have the right idea and we should quit with the whole burger and steak thing.

[hrmjustin]

36. Leviticus is not my cup of tea.

[Ken Burch]

38. It's also got a bunch of cures for leprosy.

You never know when those will come in handy.

[backscatter712]

44. The Bible is a Rorschach inkblot.

People see in it what they want to see in it.

The people who believe in an asshole god that preach wrath and vengeance and hurt use the Bible to justify that.

The people who believe in a kind god that preach being nice to each other, healing the sick, feeding the poor, following Wheaton's Law, use the Bible to justify that.

If you're going to follow the Bible, I'd prefer that you do it the way the latter group does it, not the former.

As for me, I've gone full atheist - I use other ways to construct my personal morality.

[davidpdx]

45. This says it all.....

Surprised no one has posted it yet....