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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Coming 'Instant Planetary Emergency'.
How will climate change affect the future of the planet? Scientists predict it will be nothing short of a nightmare.
-snip-
Weve Never Been Here as a Species
We as a species have never experienced 400 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, Guy McPherson, professor emeritus of evolutionary biology, natural resources, and ecology at the University of Arizona and a climate change expert of twenty-five years, told me. Weve never been on a planet with no Arctic ice, and we will hit the average of 400 ppm within the next couple of years. At that time, well also see the loss of Arctic ice in the summers. This planet has not experienced an ice-free Arctic for at least the last three million years.
For the uninitiated, in the simplest terms, heres what an ice-free Arctic would mean when it comes to heating the planet: minus the reflective ice cover on Arctic waters, solar radiation would be absorbed, not reflected, by the Arctic Ocean. That would heat those waters, and hence the planet, further. This effect has the potential to change global weather patterns, vary the flow of winds, and even someday possibly alter the position of the jet stream. Polar jet streams are fast flowing rivers of wind positioned high in the earths atmosphere that push cold and warm air masses around, playing a critical role in determining the weather of our planet.
McPherson, who maintains the blog Nature Bats Last, added, Weve never been here as a species and the implications are truly dire and profound for our species and the rest of the living planet.
While his perspective is more extreme than that of the mainstream scientific community, which sees true disaster many decades into our future, hes far from the only scientist expressing such concerns. Professor Peter Wadhams, a leading Arctic expert at Cambridge University, has been measuring Arctic ice for forty years, and his findings underscore McPhersons fears. The fall-off in ice volume is so fast it is going to bring us to zero very quickly, Wadhams told a reporter. According to current data, he estimates with 95% confidence that the Arctic will have completely ice-free summers by 2018. (US Navy researchers have predicted an ice-free Arctic even earlierby 2016.)
The rest: http://www.thenation.com/article/177614/coming-instant-planetary-emergency#
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 22, 2013, 02:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Hard to read but to the left is Alaska and the top left is Siberia. Europe on the right. US in the middle.
Note the temps around Siberia. Not conducive to ice formation. Ice however is hugging the Canadian continent and that could be why we are getting these blasts of cold air. Seems the warmer Siberian air is expanding up and over the Arctic right toward the US. Pushing cold air down onto the US.
Siberia, according to reports is almost snow free for the first time ever.
IOW, the weather is already being changed due to lack of Arctic ice..
alfredo
(60,071 posts)Sleep tight.
Miller revealed another alarming finding: Some of the methane and carbon dioxide concentrations weve measured have been large, and were seeing very different patterns from what models suggest, he said of some of CARVEs earlier findings. We saw large, regional-scale episodic bursts of higher than normal carbon dioxide and methane in interior Alaska and across the North Slope during the spring thaw, and they lasted until after the fall refreeze. To cite another example, in July 2012 we saw methane levels over swamps in the Innoko Wilderness that were 650 parts per billion higher than normal background levels. Thats similar to what you might find in a large city.
Moving beneath the Arctic Ocean where methane hydratesoften described as methane gas surrounded by iceexist, a March 2010 report in Science indicated that these cumulatively contain the equivalent of 1,00010,000 gigatons of carbon. Compare this total to the 240 gigatons of carbon humanity has emitted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution began.
A study published in the prestigious journal Nature this July suggested that a fifty-gigaton burp of methane from thawing Arctic permafrost beneath the East Siberian sea is highly possible at anytime. That would be the equivalent of at least 1,000 gigatons of carbon dioxide...
Link at OP.
alfredo
(60,071 posts)running amok. Could we become the next Venus?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)alfredo
(60,071 posts)nilram
(2,886 posts)WowSeriously
(343 posts)alfredo
(60,071 posts)WowSeriously
(343 posts)alfredo
(60,071 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,325 posts)... again?
Also, if the atmosphere fills with methane, I'm blaming the cat.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Is wrong, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I consider this a little wacky.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)CO2 but it will eventually saturate.
I don't think we can forecast what the impact of the acidification of the Ocean will have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification
Logical
(22,457 posts)Agony
(2,605 posts)decent 2 page summary of issues around ocean acidification
http://www.us-ocb.org/publications/OA20Facts.pdf
grantcart
(53,061 posts)climate change because temperatures continue to vary and not get consistently higher all of the time.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)But I'd consider attempting to locate a 'middle' by taking into account anything GOP-related very 'wacky'
If you don't mind me saying so.
Logical
(22,457 posts)I would say that our side and this OP is much closer to the truth than any denier!
alfredo
(60,071 posts)worst case scenario.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Just as much as the latest excuses from Tony Watts and company.
Nobody's going to deny that climate change is, and has been a problem for some time now, and isn't liable to stop being one for a long time(long after we've all passed on), but fearmongering will do nothing to further the cause. It never has.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)a couple decades ago.
That doesn't mean, of course, that these extreme worst cases won't be so extreme as to not be exceeded. But even extreme scientists tend to err on the side of conservativism. So I take their extreme cases quite seriously.
Logical
(22,457 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)TeamPooka
(24,210 posts)Moostache
(9,895 posts)I am going to watch this all unfold and destroy everything and my heart will break a little more with every tragedy and every disaster with the knowledge that it did not have to be this way. It breaks my heart and crushes my soul already, but the weight is still relatively light compared to what's coming soon enough...
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)the other day, and another 2,000 acre of prime forest and brush has been cut for the ubiquitous vineyards. With every vineyard that goes in, another whole group of animals dies.
Forests and brush allow for pasture for cows, and around the cows you have birds, and skunks and possums, and mink, and geese can stop on the migratory route to swim in the pond. There are deer and cougar and coyote and fox. Bobcat, snakes, and tons of birds.
I have lived in this County for 8 years, and every year there are fewer birds at the feeding station in the yard. Fewer numbers of birds too. And one thing I don't get - my understanding is there is already a glut of wine grapes for the market in the autumn, so I don't get what the payoff is in doing this. of course a lot of people just do something to impress their friends!
alfredo
(60,071 posts)to do something for the next generations. I don't like leaving the kitchen dirty.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)there will be a technological breakthrough that will reverse global warming?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Reducing the planet's population numbers back to six million or six hundred thousand or something like that. if only he had volunteered to take his "useless eating" out of the equation!
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)uh, 'breakthrough'. Although some technology could conceivably (although it should, imo, be inconceivable, beyond intelligent and preferably voluntary birth control) be employed in such a process.
But it still wouldn't reverse current and future climate change due to anthropogenic global warming, not for a very long time.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)but I'm actually contemplating something that could immediately be applied to cool things down.
I'm so amazed by the inventions we hear about every day...the young man who invented a funnel to suck up ocean litter, for example...why not something that would reverse warming right away?
We need to think big - real big - on this!
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)without provoking such as a 'nuclear winter'. Finding a way to control volcanic activity, for example.
And some way, also controllable, to adjust chemical balances in the ocean.
This would come, presumably, after having tackled the main problem and having achieved a radical socio-political and economic-financial transformation of all 'globalised' cultures, for as the article says, in the words of McPherson:
Edit: Also, I see the Arctic Methane Emergency Group suggest cloud-making or 'cloud cooling' as they call it, as seen eg. here: http://geo-engineering.blogspot.com.es/2013/05/electrostatic-nanocone-ion-gun-vortex-separated-ideal-drop-size-saltwater-cloud-cannons.html and here: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/interviews/leading-wave-energy-pioneer-prof-stephen-salter/1014047.article
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)Way to put on your thinking cap - and the authors, as well!
Hopefully, whatever is attempted, will not result in negative side effects.
So glad to see genius minds are being put to this.
I thank you greatly for listing these articles, and will read and share them!!
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)in the world and the first in the UK, from the then Plymouth Polytechnic 1973-76, 2.1 Honours CNAA now Open University, then spent two years researching at the U. of Bath in relation to 'environmentalism' in the areas of sociology and philosophy of science and of knowledge and the associated economics and politics (before finding my finance withdrawn for radicalism, meeting a French woman on the ferry leaving Ireland one evening and dropping out for a couple of years, then becoming an analyst programmer in London with an MSc from Essex); so although I've never been employed in that field I've been following, and thinking, and preaching to deaf ears for a long time.
Now I watch my back and help to build local community and make music: http://aridisland.com/records
Glad to see you too putting your thinking-cap on, cilla4progress, thank you.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)to my environmental policy daughter to look at the articles.
After "skiing" today on paltry snow in the Pacific NW United States...the issue is coming home to roost (though I realize one day is only anecdotal; a series trends toward statistical)... Husband rode up a lift with an older gentleman from Norway who described warming conditions there resulting in less snow over time.
This sucks.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)You can check out their interaction on Dec 9th's Colbert show, over at Comedy Central.
Won't say a whole lot more, because topic is dungeon related, especially if you want to talk about the damage being done by those in those planes that are not even there!
And apparently the scientists who have been recording soil and water samples of aluminum for thirty years or more, and now find astronomical amounts of aluminum in soil and in water, well, I guess those people and their records don't exist exist either. (Aluminum amounts recorded in snow off hills and mountains in Lassen area of California contain 21,000 times more aluminum than the EPA says is good for you.)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and instantly made the world a better place.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)World population reduction, many of us must be thinking, "Oh, if only there was some super virus that was taking out a few hundred jerks like him, it would be a big start to helping the planet. A virus programmed to go after pure nastiness."
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Many of the doomers themselves may not think this way, TBH, but what of certain of the .1% who have their own agendas and such that happen to line up with fearmongering prophesying? What could *they* do with this?
alfredo
(60,071 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)The complexity and intricacy of the web of life defies simplistic solutions.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)G_j
(40,366 posts)TV News and Extreme Weather: Don't Mention Climate Change
Dramatic weather-related disasters are ready made for TV news. But what's not on the screen? The human-made climate change that is affecting, and in some cases exacerbating, that extreme weather.
A new FAIR survey of the national network newscasts (CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, ABC World News) finds that extreme weather is big news. In the first nine months of 2013, there were 450 segments of 200 words or more that covered extreme weather: flooding, forest fires, tornadoes, blizzards, hurricanes and heat waves.
But of that total, just a tiny fraction--16 segments, or 4 percent of the total--so much as mentioned the words "climate change," "global warming" or "greenhouse gases."
So in what was an unusually active weather year in the United States--a massive tornado in Oklahoma, deadly flooding in Colorado, massive wildfires across several Western states and bouts of unseasonable temperatures across the country--96 percent of extreme weather stories never discussed the human impact on the climate that is contributing to these outcomes.
It's almost as if the altered climate and the weather were happening on two different planets.
The FAIR survey appears in the December 2013 issue of FAIR's magazine Extra!.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)You had me up until Jamail started quoting from none other than every doomer's climate fearmongerer extraordinaire, Guy McPherson(you've also got Dave Wasdell, who only adds to the nuttiness). And that's where you lost me. And then there's these forecasts from supposedly "conservative" organizations.....that are hardly conservative at all(except the first three, the last two of which are arguably more plausible than any of the others, even the IPCC from '07, the *only* cited report that was conservative at all.).
And honestly, the fact that he's now working for Al-Jazeera's branch in Qatar, perhaps one of the most fouled up of all the Gulf Petrostates(and a state whose leaders would undoubtedly benefit, in the short term, at least, from sabotaging of efforts to fight climate change).....doesn't that make you want to do a double-take?
NickB79
(19,224 posts)The project, based out of the US Naval Postgraduate School's Department of Oceanography, uses complex modelling techniques that make its projections more accurate than others.
snip
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Is this like, second nature for climate doomers? Sure seems like it.
In any case, you'll have to note that my criticism was mainly centered on the usage of fringe crazies for some of his sources(McPherson & Wasdell in particular), and as well as outlier-type scenarios being falsely presented as "conservative" no way are we going to plausibly reach 3.5*C by 2035 or even 5*C by 2050, even under the worst possible scenarios; and yes, this even assumes that the all the worst possible feedbacks occur, and in the shortest possible terms at that).....and this isn't so much directed at the faulty researchers themselves, whomever they may be, but rather, at those people who take these extreme predictions, and pass them off as the Gospels, or whatever.
In short, this Jamail fellow didn't do very good job at finding quality research. Half-assed effort at a half-assed article.....
Uncle Joe
(58,300 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Which is about the most pessimistic of the IPCC scenarios in their latest draft.....take that as you will, but for a supposedly "conservative" organization, the IPCC sure has had a pretty decent track record. The doomers? Not nearly so much.....
Uncle Joe
(58,300 posts)In regards to sea level rise they've already revised their 2004 IPCC Report to a more negative outlook.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/10/sea-level-in-the-5th-ipcc-report/
For an unmitigated future rise in emissions (RCP8.5), IPCC now expects between a half metre and a metre of sea-level rise by the end of this century. The best estimate here is 74 cm.
On the low end, the range for the RCP2.6 scenario is 28-61 cm rise by 2100, with a best estimate of 44 cm. Now that is very remarkable, given that this is a scenario with drastic emissions reductions starting in a few years from now, with the world reaching zero emissions by 2070 and after that succeeding in active carbon dioxide removal from the atmosphere. Even so, the expected sea-level rise will be almost three times as large as that experienced over the 20th Century (17 cm). This reflects the large inertia in the sea-level response it is very difficult to make sea-level rise slow down again once it has been initiated. This inertia is also the reason for the relatively small difference in sea-level rise by 2100 between the highest and lowest emissions scenario (the ranges even overlap) the major difference will only be seen in the 22nd century.
(snip)
The range up to 98 cm is the IPCCs likely range, i.e. the risk of exceeding 98 cm is considered to be 17%, and IPCC adds in the SPM that several tenths of a meter of sea level rise during the 21st century could be added to this if a collapse of marine-based sectors of the Antarctic ice sheet is initiated. It is thus clear that a meter is not the upper limit.
(snip)
4. Greenland might melt faster than current models capture, due to the dark snow effect. Jason Box, a glaciologist who studies this issue, has said:
There was controversy after AR4 that sea level rise estimates were too low. Now, we have the same problem for AR5 [that they are still too low].
Here's more from the IPCC regarding methane release from fracking.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/10/02/2708911/fracking-ipcc-methane/
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reports that methane (CH4) is far more potent a greenhouse gas than we had previously realized.
This matters to the fracking debate because methane leaks throughout the lifecycle of unconventional gas. Natural gas is, after all, mostly methane (CH4).
We learned last month that the best fracked wells appear to have low emissions of methane, but that study likely missed the high-emitting wells that result in the vast majority of methane leakage. Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the countrys largest gas fields which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas.
(snip)
But the IPCCs latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCCs previous estimate of 25.
With developments like this I believe the IPCC will be revising their reports again and not for the better.
Having said that even under your scenario it's not going to be "business as usual."
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm sorry, but for whatever cautiousness they may have sometimes engaged in, the IPCC wasn't nearly as conservative as the climate doomers made them out to be.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)Unfortunately: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/11/global-warming-since-1997-underestimated-by-half/
Obtaining the globally averaged temperature from weather station data has a well-known problem: there are some gaps in the data, especially in the polar regions and in parts of Africa. As long as the regions not covered warm up like the rest of the world, that does not change the global temperature curve.
But errors in global temperature trends arise if these areas evolve differently from the global mean. Thats been the case over the last 15 years in the Arctic, which has warmed exceptionally fast, as shown by satellite and reanalysis data and by the massive sea ice loss there. This problem was analysed for the first time by Rasmus in 2008 at RealClimate, and it was later confirmed by other authors in the scientific literature.
The Arctic hole is the main reason for the difference between the NASA GISS data and the other two data sets of near-surface temperature, HadCRUT and NOAA. I have always preferred the GISS data because NASA fills the data gaps by interpolation from the edges, which is certainly better than not filling them at all.
Conservative estimates of the basic global temperature records lead to excessively conservative estimates of future warming.
Once again (even though you constantly claim otherwise) things turn out to be worse than expected with regard to climate change.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Sorry, but even with the holes in Arctic coverage that *may* have existed, it still doesn't change the fact that a *relative* warming pause did in fact occur(although some reliable evidence exists that this was largely due to the oceans taking in more heat than they did in the '80s and the first half of the '90s), despite what this fringe outlier study claims. I'm afraid that RealClimate missed the ball on this one, Nick.
Conservative estimates of the basic global temperature records lead to excessively conservative estimates of future warming.
Once again (even though you constantly claim otherwise) things turn out to be worse than expected with regard to climate change.
Nope, not in the least. I'm sure that's what you want to believe, but once again, you guys fall short.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)So, the issue has been noticed since 2008 by multiple people, not just one "fringe outlier" study as you call it. And even you can't argue that the Arctic isn't warming far faster than the rest of the planet, given the peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary (a simple online search will give you HUNDREDS of journal articles to that effect).
So, in this thread I've presented two independent, peer-reviewed studies saying that climate models are overly conservative (this one and the US Navy study I posted earlier). You've presented nothing.
But I'll be sure to put AverageJoe90, random dude from the Internet, above RealClimate, a well-recognized source of information on climate change, in my go-to reading list of climate change research.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)There is no dispute that the Arctic has been warming faster than any other place on Earth. It's the claim of no slowdown in overall warming that makes this particular study problematic, because all the other research says otherwise(as I pointed out, the oceans did take in a lot of extra heat starting in the middle '90s).
And even you can't argue that the Arctic isn't warming far faster than the rest of the planet, given the peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary (a simple online search will give you HUNDREDS of journal articles to that effect).
Not that I ever did, mind you. But then again, that didn't stop you from building a strawman, amirite?
So, in this thread I've presented two independent, peer-reviewed studies saying that climate models are overly conservative (this one and the US Navy study I posted earlier).
And all you need to do is look at the record. At least two of the first three studies I mentioned may indeed have been conservative, and the third one mentioning a possible 3.5*C rise is up for debate. But none of these others were any sort of conservative at all, and that's what you apparently completely fail to realize(after all, if these already highly unreasonably pessimistic estimates of 5*C by 2050 or 3.5*C by 2035 for two of the most egregious examples, are "conservative" in the eyes of doomers, then what's the most "accurate" view?).
But I'll be sure to put AverageJoe90, random dude from the Internet, above RealClimate, a well-recognized source of information on climate change, in my go-to reading list of climate change research.
And normally, they *do* get things right. But this is one of those (rare) times where they've dropped the ball; it does happen, you know, we're only human.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)are making their calculations, are they taking into account the impact that emission free automobiles and artificial meat will have?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)or are they woven out of organically grown hemp?
Because extracting metals, making steel, manufacturing and assembling the parts and shipping the things to the end-user uses as much, if not more, energy and blows off as much, if not more, pollution as the fuel that won't be running them would have.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Correction: do these climate alarmists account for dramatically reduced emission vehicles?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and replacing the fossil fuel burning fleet will itself cause equal emissions to the old autos currently on the roads.
In the meantime, if we are not already in runaway warming, it is likely we will be before that happens. And don't forget that driving fossil fuel autos is only one factor in climate change. Manufacturing plants are huge. Agriculture, from running machinery and equipment to petroleum-based fertilizer. Heating buildings -- hospitals are massive fuel burners, not to mention manufacturing everything from the tubes and needles we draw blood with, the gloves we change dozens of times/day, to the reagents, washes, qc, etc. The office building I also work in is another massive fuel-burner. Keeping satellites aloft to run the internet and other spying operations are another. And then there is shipping dead chickens to China to be processed into mcnuggets and shipped back here again. Massive, massive waste throughout a system that burns massive amounts of fossil fuels every hour of every day.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I used to criticize the format rather than the content too... but then I learned how to read better, and to keep my petulance to myself.
Good luck!
Uncle Joe
(58,300 posts)Thanks for the thread, JaneyVee.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Which is true for every stage in our evolution. Let us see how fast we can evolve, climate change it is a self starting game with a countdown timer.
Everything else is just FUD.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Since the whole denial thing isn't working so well, it's time to bring out the "it's not as bad as all that" meme.
& & R
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Nothing to be worried about, move along now, move along...
Big KICK & Recommend!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)To be truthfully honest, that, and it's sister meme, "It's always much worse than expected, much faster, all the time!" could *only* have been widely popularized by the .1%; I'd bet my life savings on that.
The denial may not be working anymore, but I'm afraid I can't say the same for outright fearmongering & muddying the waters(and there's plenty of both!).....and unfortunately, that still *IS* hurting us right now.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)It does sucker some folks. But it does not change the ugly reality they work so hard to deny and disguise.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)NickB79
(19,224 posts)The increasing sea ice is addressed as well as due to the increased freshwater runoff from melting ice sheets lowering the freezing point of waters around the continent.
Also:
Auggie
(31,133 posts)ryan_cats
(2,061 posts)What would happen to the sea level if ALL the ice were to melt? Who would it affect besides coastal regions (duh)?