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JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:34 AM Dec 2013

The Coming 'Instant Planetary Emergency'.



How will climate change affect the future of the planet? Scientists predict it will be nothing short of a nightmare.

-snip-

“We’ve Never Been Here as a Species”

“We as a species have never experienced 400 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere,” Guy McPherson, professor emeritus of evolutionary biology, natural resources, and ecology at the University of Arizona and a climate change expert of twenty-five years, told me. “We’ve never been on a planet with no Arctic ice, and we will hit the average of 400 ppm…within the next couple of years. At that time, we’ll also see the loss of Arctic ice in the summers.… This planet has not experienced an ice-free Arctic for at least the last three million years.”

For the uninitiated, in the simplest terms, here’s what an ice-free Arctic would mean when it comes to heating the planet: minus the reflective ice cover on Arctic waters, solar radiation would be absorbed, not reflected, by the Arctic Ocean. That would heat those waters, and hence the planet, further. This effect has the potential to change global weather patterns, vary the flow of winds, and even someday possibly alter the position of the jet stream. Polar jet streams are fast flowing rivers of wind positioned high in the earth’s atmosphere that push cold and warm air masses around, playing a critical role in determining the weather of our planet.

McPherson, who maintains the blog Nature Bats Last, added, “We’ve never been here as a species and the implications are truly dire and profound for our species and the rest of the living planet.”

While his perspective is more extreme than that of the mainstream scientific community, which sees true disaster many decades into our future, he’s far from the only scientist expressing such concerns. Professor Peter Wadhams, a leading Arctic expert at Cambridge University, has been measuring Arctic ice for forty years, and his findings underscore McPherson’s fears. “The fall-off in ice volume is so fast it is going to bring us to zero very quickly,” Wadhams told a reporter. According to current data, he estimates “with 95% confidence” that the Arctic will have completely ice-free summers by 2018. (US Navy researchers have predicted an ice-free Arctic even earlier—by 2016.)

The rest: http://www.thenation.com/article/177614/coming-instant-planetary-emergency#


73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Coming 'Instant Planetary Emergency'. (Original Post) JaneyVee Dec 2013 OP
Pic of Arctic water temps RobertEarl Dec 2013 #1
Melting permafrost will pump tons of methane into the air. Methane is a very potent GH gas. alfredo Dec 2013 #3
. Ghost Dog Dec 2013 #17
They say that Venus is an example of greenhouse gasses alfredo Dec 2013 #22
For a variety of reasons, absolutely not. nt AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #31
Explain. My knowledge is old. alfredo Dec 2013 #38
ironicaly amusing if an ice-free shipping zone opens up on the Siberian side and not the NA side nilram Dec 2013 #7
Awesome coaster, dude! Can't wait for that to happen! WowSeriously Dec 2013 #2
If you are sitting in the front you get hammered when you hit the water. alfredo Dec 2013 #4
That doesn't sound fun. WowSeriously Dec 2013 #6
When I was younger I liked getting hammered. alfredo Dec 2013 #23
What, me hammered? JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2013 #15
These cases are the extreme worst cases, the GOP says nothing.... Logical Dec 2013 #5
What worries me is that the ocean is still absorbing a lot of grantcart Dec 2013 #11
I agree! nt Logical Dec 2013 #20
Woods Hole/OCBproject's "20 facts about Ocean Acidification" Agony Dec 2013 #44
Good source. It also allows for a much clearer answer for those that have trouble understanding grantcart Dec 2013 #47
Maybe so. Ghost Dog Dec 2013 #19
You are right. Wacky was a bad word...... Logical Dec 2013 #21
True, but it seems the scientist have had to readjust their alfredo Dec 2013 #24
And a lot of this "the findings are all getting worse, all the time" stuff is hooey as well..... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #30
the reality has continued to exceed the "extreme worst cases" predicted magical thyme Dec 2013 #48
Good point! nt Logical Dec 2013 #60
Kick.... daleanime Dec 2013 #8
kinda glad I'm old. TeamPooka Dec 2013 #9
I wish I was a little older... Moostache Dec 2013 #10
Oh do I hear you. I ventured out on a drive cross the County truedelphi Dec 2013 #13
I think that sometimes, but then I think I need alfredo Dec 2013 #25
Does anyone have hope or faith, or science-based expectation cilla4progress Dec 2013 #12
Kissinger was infamous for his quote about culling the herd - you know, truedelphi Dec 2013 #14
I guess that would be a 'socio-political' rather than technological Ghost Dog Dec 2013 #16
I know that's the standard prescription cilla4progress Dec 2013 #29
Something that would shade to the right, controlled degree, the upper atmosphere Ghost Dog Dec 2013 #32
I see you've been paying attention! cilla4progress Dec 2013 #34
I graduated from one of the first multi-disciplinary environmental science courses Ghost Dog Dec 2013 #66
Just sent your earlier post cilla4progress Dec 2013 #73
All I know is I was very happy to see Stephen Colbert tear David Keith a new one. truedelphi Dec 2013 #37
He could have started with himself Aerows Dec 2013 #69
I know. Any time any horrid person like Kissinger talks about truedelphi Dec 2013 #70
And honestly, I do wonder how much climate doomerism may play into such fantasies................... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #72
We have to find a cure for greed first. alfredo Dec 2013 #26
No. Any "technological breakthrough" will only create a new set of problems magical thyme Dec 2013 #49
"STFU. We don't want to hear no steenkin truth. Sneer." - RepubliBaggers, Inc. (R) Berlum Dec 2013 #18
TV News and Extreme Weather: Don't Mention Climate Change G_j Dec 2013 #27
+1 countryjake Dec 2013 #46
Here comes the fearmongering again..... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #28
Damn fearmongering US Navy climate scientists NickB79 Dec 2013 #35
Way to take my comment outta context, Nick. AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #36
What is your worst case scenario from global warming climate change? n/t Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #40
About ~4*C by 2100 under business-as-usual..... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #51
Yes they have a track record but it has been on the conservative side as you stated. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #57
You do realize I had that in *quotes*, right? As in....with an element of sarcasm? AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #61
The IPCC used HADCrut data extensively NickB79 Dec 2013 #58
Sorry, but this is only ONE study..... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #62
Perhaps you missed this part NickB79 Dec 2013 #64
There's still a problem that you refuse to acknowledge, Nick. AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #65
So when these alarmists CFLDem Dec 2013 #33
you do realize there is no such thing as an emission-free automobile magical thyme Dec 2013 #50
I apologize for my egregious genralization. CFLDem Dec 2013 #52
dramatically reduced emission vehicles are irrelevent until the existing fleet is largely replaced magical thyme Dec 2013 #54
Paragraphs are our friend. CFLDem Dec 2013 #55
I used to criticize the format rather than the content too... but then I learned how to read better. LanternWaste Dec 2013 #67
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #39
Irishman to Noah: "'tis only a shower." Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #41
“We’ve Never Been Here as a Species” Rex Dec 2013 #42
You've attracted the Corporate Chorus, nice. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #43
Yup, isn't that special... countryjake Dec 2013 #45
Or rather, the "humanity is doomed, we cannot survive, give in" meme. AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #71
The Republicon Lie Machine and their SuckerPuppets can lie about reality till their money runs out Berlum Dec 2013 #53
so what about the other pole? n/t ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2013 #56
The other pole is also losing ice mass NickB79 Dec 2013 #59
Kick Auggie Dec 2013 #63
What would happen to the sea level if ALL the ice were to melt? ryan_cats Dec 2013 #68
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
1. Pic of Arctic water temps
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:46 AM
Dec 2013

Last edited Sun Dec 22, 2013, 02:07 PM - Edit history (1)



Hard to read but to the left is Alaska and the top left is Siberia. Europe on the right. US in the middle.

Note the temps around Siberia. Not conducive to ice formation. Ice however is hugging the Canadian continent and that could be why we are getting these blasts of cold air. Seems the warmer Siberian air is expanding up and over the Arctic right toward the US. Pushing cold air down onto the US.

Siberia, according to reports is almost snow free for the first time ever.

IOW, the weather is already being changed due to lack of Arctic ice..

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
3. Melting permafrost will pump tons of methane into the air. Methane is a very potent GH gas.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 01:56 AM
Dec 2013

Sleep tight.

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
17. .
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:39 AM
Dec 2013
... The recent NASA study highlights the discovery of active and growing methane vents up to 150 kilometers across. A scientist on a research ship in the area described this as a bubbling as far as the eye can see in which the seawater looks like a vast pool of seltzer. Between the summers of 2010 and 2011, in fact, scientists found that in the course of a year methane vents only thirty centimeters across had grown a kilometer wide, a 3,333 percent increase and an example of the non-linear rapidity with which parts of the planet are responding to climate disruption.

Miller revealed another alarming finding: “Some of the methane and carbon dioxide concentrations we’ve measured have been large, and we’re seeing very different patterns from what models suggest,” he said of some of CARVE’s earlier findings. “We saw large, regional-scale episodic bursts of higher than normal carbon dioxide and methane in interior Alaska and across the North Slope during the spring thaw, and they lasted until after the fall refreeze. To cite another example, in July 2012 we saw methane levels over swamps in the Innoko Wilderness that were 650 parts per billion higher than normal background levels. That’s similar to what you might find in a large city.”

Moving beneath the Arctic Ocean where methane hydrates—often described as methane gas surrounded by ice—exist, a March 2010 report in Science indicated that these cumulatively contain the equivalent of 1,000–10,000 gigatons of carbon. Compare this total to the 240 gigatons of carbon humanity has emitted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution began.

A study published in the prestigious journal Nature this July suggested that a fifty-gigaton “burp” of methane from thawing Arctic permafrost beneath the East Siberian sea is “highly possible at anytime.” That would be the equivalent of at least 1,000 gigatons of carbon dioxide...


Link at OP.

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
22. They say that Venus is an example of greenhouse gasses
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:03 AM
Dec 2013

running amok. Could we become the next Venus?

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
5. These cases are the extreme worst cases, the GOP says nothing....
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 02:12 AM
Dec 2013

Is wrong, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I consider this a little wacky.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
11. What worries me is that the ocean is still absorbing a lot of
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 03:59 AM
Dec 2013

CO2 but it will eventually saturate.

I don't think we can forecast what the impact of the acidification of the Ocean will have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
47. Good source. It also allows for a much clearer answer for those that have trouble understanding
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 08:36 PM
Dec 2013

climate change because temperatures continue to vary and not get consistently higher all of the time.
 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
19. Maybe so.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:45 AM
Dec 2013

But I'd consider attempting to locate a 'middle' by taking into account anything GOP-related very 'wacky'

If you don't mind me saying so.

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
21. You are right. Wacky was a bad word......
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 10:01 AM
Dec 2013

I would say that our side and this OP is much closer to the truth than any denier!

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
30. And a lot of this "the findings are all getting worse, all the time" stuff is hooey as well.....
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:04 PM
Dec 2013

Just as much as the latest excuses from Tony Watts and company.

Nobody's going to deny that climate change is, and has been a problem for some time now, and isn't liable to stop being one for a long time(long after we've all passed on), but fearmongering will do nothing to further the cause. It never has.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
48. the reality has continued to exceed the "extreme worst cases" predicted
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:06 PM
Dec 2013

a couple decades ago.

That doesn't mean, of course, that these extreme worst cases won't be so extreme as to not be exceeded. But even extreme scientists tend to err on the side of conservativism. So I take their extreme cases quite seriously.

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
10. I wish I was a little older...
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 03:37 AM
Dec 2013

I am going to watch this all unfold and destroy everything and my heart will break a little more with every tragedy and every disaster with the knowledge that it did not have to be this way. It breaks my heart and crushes my soul already, but the weight is still relatively light compared to what's coming soon enough...

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
13. Oh do I hear you. I ventured out on a drive cross the County
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 06:27 AM
Dec 2013

the other day, and another 2,000 acre of prime forest and brush has been cut for the ubiquitous vineyards. With every vineyard that goes in, another whole group of animals dies.

Forests and brush allow for pasture for cows, and around the cows you have birds, and skunks and possums, and mink, and geese can stop on the migratory route to swim in the pond. There are deer and cougar and coyote and fox. Bobcat, snakes, and tons of birds.

I have lived in this County for 8 years, and every year there are fewer birds at the feeding station in the yard. Fewer numbers of birds too. And one thing I don't get - my understanding is there is already a glut of wine grapes for the market in the autumn, so I don't get what the payoff is in doing this. of course a lot of people just do something to impress their friends!

alfredo

(60,071 posts)
25. I think that sometimes, but then I think I need
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:12 AM
Dec 2013

to do something for the next generations. I don't like leaving the kitchen dirty.

cilla4progress

(24,718 posts)
12. Does anyone have hope or faith, or science-based expectation
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 04:08 AM
Dec 2013

there will be a technological breakthrough that will reverse global warming?

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
14. Kissinger was infamous for his quote about culling the herd - you know,
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 06:30 AM
Dec 2013

Reducing the planet's population numbers back to six million or six hundred thousand or something like that. if only he had volunteered to take his "useless eating" out of the equation!

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
16. I guess that would be a 'socio-political' rather than technological
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:21 AM
Dec 2013

uh, 'breakthrough'. Although some technology could conceivably (although it should, imo, be inconceivable, beyond intelligent and preferably voluntary birth control) be employed in such a process.

But it still wouldn't reverse current and future climate change due to anthropogenic global warming, not for a very long time.

cilla4progress

(24,718 posts)
29. I know that's the standard prescription
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:00 PM
Dec 2013

but I'm actually contemplating something that could immediately be applied to cool things down.

I'm so amazed by the inventions we hear about every day...the young man who invented a funnel to suck up ocean litter, for example...why not something that would reverse warming right away?

We need to think big - real big - on this!

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
32. Something that would shade to the right, controlled degree, the upper atmosphere
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 12:44 PM
Dec 2013

without provoking such as a 'nuclear winter'. Finding a way to control volcanic activity, for example.

And some way, also controllable, to adjust chemical balances in the ocean.

This would come, presumably, after having tackled the main problem and having achieved a radical socio-political and economic-financial transformation of all 'globalised' cultures, for as the article says, in the words of McPherson:

... “There’s not much money in the end of civilization, and even less to be made in human extinction.” The destruction of the planet, on the other hand, is a good bet, ... “because there is money in this, and as long as that’s the case, it is going to continue.”...


Edit: Also, I see the Arctic Methane Emergency Group suggest cloud-making or 'cloud cooling' as they call it, as seen eg. here: http://geo-engineering.blogspot.com.es/2013/05/electrostatic-nanocone-ion-gun-vortex-separated-ideal-drop-size-saltwater-cloud-cannons.html and here: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/interviews/leading-wave-energy-pioneer-prof-stephen-salter/1014047.article

cilla4progress

(24,718 posts)
34. I see you've been paying attention!
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 03:34 PM
Dec 2013

Way to put on your thinking cap - and the authors, as well!

Hopefully, whatever is attempted, will not result in negative side effects.

So glad to see genius minds are being put to this.

I thank you greatly for listing these articles, and will read and share them!!

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
66. I graduated from one of the first multi-disciplinary environmental science courses
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 11:29 AM
Dec 2013

in the world and the first in the UK, from the then Plymouth Polytechnic 1973-76, 2.1 Honours CNAA now Open University, then spent two years researching at the U. of Bath in relation to 'environmentalism' in the areas of sociology and philosophy of science and of knowledge and the associated economics and politics (before finding my finance withdrawn for radicalism, meeting a French woman on the ferry leaving Ireland one evening and dropping out for a couple of years, then becoming an analyst programmer in London with an MSc from Essex); so although I've never been employed in that field I've been following, and thinking, and preaching to deaf ears for a long time.

Now I watch my back and help to build local community and make music: http://aridisland.com/records

Glad to see you too putting your thinking-cap on, cilla4progress, thank you.

cilla4progress

(24,718 posts)
73. Just sent your earlier post
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:06 PM
Dec 2013

to my environmental policy daughter to look at the articles.

After "skiing" today on paltry snow in the Pacific NW United States...the issue is coming home to roost (though I realize one day is only anecdotal; a series trends toward statistical)... Husband rode up a lift with an older gentleman from Norway who described warming conditions there resulting in less snow over time.

This sucks.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
37. All I know is I was very happy to see Stephen Colbert tear David Keith a new one.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 06:04 PM
Dec 2013

You can check out their interaction on Dec 9th's Colbert show, over at Comedy Central.

Won't say a whole lot more, because topic is dungeon related, especially if you want to talk about the damage being done by those in those planes that are not even there!

And apparently the scientists who have been recording soil and water samples of aluminum for thirty years or more, and now find astronomical amounts of aluminum in soil and in water, well, I guess those people and their records don't exist exist either. (Aluminum amounts recorded in snow off hills and mountains in Lassen area of California contain 21,000 times more aluminum than the EPA says is good for you.)

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
70. I know. Any time any horrid person like Kissinger talks about
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 05:47 PM
Dec 2013

World population reduction, many of us must be thinking, "Oh, if only there was some super virus that was taking out a few hundred jerks like him, it would be a big start to helping the planet. A virus programmed to go after pure nastiness."

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
72. And honestly, I do wonder how much climate doomerism may play into such fantasies...................
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 05:57 PM
Dec 2013

Many of the doomers themselves may not think this way, TBH, but what of certain of the .1% who have their own agendas and such that happen to line up with fearmongering prophesying? What could *they* do with this?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
49. No. Any "technological breakthrough" will only create a new set of problems
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:08 PM
Dec 2013

The complexity and intricacy of the web of life defies simplistic solutions.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
27. TV News and Extreme Weather: Don't Mention Climate Change
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:19 AM
Dec 2013
http://fair.org/press-release/tv-news-and-extreme-weather-dont-mention-climate-change/

TV News and Extreme Weather: Don't Mention Climate Change



Dramatic weather-related disasters are ready made for TV news. But what's not on the screen? The human-made climate change that is affecting, and in some cases exacerbating, that extreme weather.

A new FAIR survey of the national network newscasts (CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, ABC World News) finds that extreme weather is big news. In the first nine months of 2013, there were 450 segments of 200 words or more that covered extreme weather: flooding, forest fires, tornadoes, blizzards, hurricanes and heat waves.
But of that total, just a tiny fraction--16 segments, or 4 percent of the total--so much as mentioned the words "climate change," "global warming" or "greenhouse gases."

So in what was an unusually active weather year in the United States--a massive tornado in Oklahoma, deadly flooding in Colorado, massive wildfires across several Western states and bouts of unseasonable temperatures across the country--96 percent of extreme weather stories never discussed the human impact on the climate that is contributing to these outcomes.
It's almost as if the altered climate and the weather were happening on two different planets.

The FAIR survey appears in the December 2013 issue of FAIR's magazine Extra!.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
28. Here comes the fearmongering again.....
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:59 AM
Dec 2013

You had me up until Jamail started quoting from none other than every doomer's climate fearmongerer extraordinaire, Guy McPherson(you've also got Dave Wasdell, who only adds to the nuttiness). And that's where you lost me. And then there's these forecasts from supposedly "conservative" organizations.....that are hardly conservative at all(except the first three, the last two of which are arguably more plausible than any of the others, even the IPCC from '07, the *only* cited report that was conservative at all.).

And honestly, the fact that he's now working for Al-Jazeera's branch in Qatar, perhaps one of the most fouled up of all the Gulf Petrostates(and a state whose leaders would undoubtedly benefit, in the short term, at least, from sabotaging of efforts to fight climate change).....doesn't that make you want to do a double-take?

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
35. Damn fearmongering US Navy climate scientists
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 04:00 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/dec/09/us-navy-arctic-sea-ice-2016-melt

An ongoing US Department of Energy-backed research project led by a US Navy scientist predicts that the Arctic could lose its summer sea ice cover as early as 2016 - 84 years ahead of conventional model projections.

The project, based out of the US Naval Postgraduate School's Department of Oceanography, uses complex modelling techniques that make its projections more accurate than others.


snip

The paper is highly critical of global climate models (GCM) and even the majority of regional models, noting that "many Arctic climatic processes that are omitted from, or poorly represented in, most current-generation GCMs" which "do not account for important feedbacks among various system components." There is therefore "a great need for improved understanding and model representation of physical processes and interactions specific to polar regions that currently might not be fully accounted for or are missing in GCMs."
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
36. Way to take my comment outta context, Nick.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 05:20 PM
Dec 2013

Is this like, second nature for climate doomers? Sure seems like it.

In any case, you'll have to note that my criticism was mainly centered on the usage of fringe crazies for some of his sources(McPherson & Wasdell in particular), and as well as outlier-type scenarios being falsely presented as "conservative&quot no way are we going to plausibly reach 3.5*C by 2035 or even 5*C by 2050, even under the worst possible scenarios; and yes, this even assumes that the all the worst possible feedbacks occur, and in the shortest possible terms at that).....and this isn't so much directed at the faulty researchers themselves, whomever they may be, but rather, at those people who take these extreme predictions, and pass them off as the Gospels, or whatever.

In short, this Jamail fellow didn't do very good job at finding quality research. Half-assed effort at a half-assed article.....

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
51. About ~4*C by 2100 under business-as-usual.....
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:43 PM
Dec 2013

Which is about the most pessimistic of the IPCC scenarios in their latest draft.....take that as you will, but for a supposedly "conservative" organization, the IPCC sure has had a pretty decent track record. The doomers? Not nearly so much.....

Uncle Joe

(58,300 posts)
57. Yes they have a track record but it has been on the conservative side as you stated.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 10:59 PM
Dec 2013

In regards to sea level rise they've already revised their 2004 IPCC Report to a more negative outlook.



http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/10/sea-level-in-the-5th-ipcc-report/



For an unmitigated future rise in emissions (RCP8.5), IPCC now expects between a half metre and a metre of sea-level rise by the end of this century. The best estimate here is 74 cm.

On the low end, the range for the RCP2.6 scenario is 28-61 cm rise by 2100, with a best estimate of 44 cm. Now that is very remarkable, given that this is a scenario with drastic emissions reductions starting in a few years from now, with the world reaching zero emissions by 2070 and after that succeeding in active carbon dioxide removal from the atmosphere. Even so, the expected sea-level rise will be almost three times as large as that experienced over the 20th Century (17 cm). This reflects the large inertia in the sea-level response – it is very difficult to make sea-level rise slow down again once it has been initiated. This inertia is also the reason for the relatively small difference in sea-level rise by 2100 between the highest and lowest emissions scenario (the ranges even overlap) – the major difference will only be seen in the 22nd century.

(snip)

The range up to 98 cm is the IPCC’s “likely” range, i.e. the risk of exceeding 98 cm is considered to be 17%, and IPCC adds in the SPM that “several tenths of a meter of sea level rise during the 21st century” could be added to this if a collapse of marine-based sectors of the Antarctic ice sheet is initiated. It is thus clear that a meter is not the upper limit.

(snip)

4. Greenland might melt faster than current models capture, due to the “dark snow” effect. Jason Box, a glaciologist who studies this issue, has said:

There was controversy after AR4 that sea level rise estimates were too low. Now, we have the same problem for AR5 [that they are still too low].



Here's more from the IPCC regarding methane release from fracking.



http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/10/02/2708911/fracking-ipcc-methane/

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) reports that methane (CH4) is far more potent a greenhouse gas than we had previously realized.

This matters to the fracking debate because methane leaks throughout the lifecycle of unconventional gas. Natural gas is, after all, mostly methane (CH4).

We learned last month that the best fracked wells appear to have low emissions of methane, but that study likely missed the high-emitting wells that result in the vast majority of methane leakage. Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas.

(snip)

But the IPCC’s latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCC’s previous estimate of 25.



With developments like this I believe the IPCC will be revising their reports again and not for the better.

Having said that even under your scenario it's not going to be "business as usual."





 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
61. You do realize I had that in *quotes*, right? As in....with an element of sarcasm?
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:08 AM
Dec 2013

I'm sorry, but for whatever cautiousness they may have sometimes engaged in, the IPCC wasn't nearly as conservative as the climate doomers made them out to be.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
58. The IPCC used HADCrut data extensively
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:28 PM
Dec 2013

Unfortunately: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/11/global-warming-since-1997-underestimated-by-half/

A new study by British and Canadian researchers shows that the global temperature rise of the past 15 years has been greatly underestimated. The reason is the data gaps in the weather station network, especially in the Arctic. If you fill these data gaps using satellite measurements, the warming trend is more than doubled in the widely used HadCRUT4 data, and the much-discussed “warming pause” has virtually disappeared.

Obtaining the globally averaged temperature from weather station data has a well-known problem: there are some gaps in the data, especially in the polar regions and in parts of Africa. As long as the regions not covered warm up like the rest of the world, that does not change the global temperature curve.

But errors in global temperature trends arise if these areas evolve differently from the global mean. That’s been the case over the last 15 years in the Arctic, which has warmed exceptionally fast, as shown by satellite and reanalysis data and by the massive sea ice loss there. This problem was analysed for the first time by Rasmus in 2008 at RealClimate, and it was later confirmed by other authors in the scientific literature.

The “Arctic hole” is the main reason for the difference between the NASA GISS data and the other two data sets of near-surface temperature, HadCRUT and NOAA. I have always preferred the GISS data because NASA fills the data gaps by interpolation from the edges, which is certainly better than not filling them at all.


Conservative estimates of the basic global temperature records lead to excessively conservative estimates of future warming.

Once again (even though you constantly claim otherwise) things turn out to be worse than expected with regard to climate change.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
62. Sorry, but this is only ONE study.....
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:26 AM
Dec 2013

Sorry, but even with the holes in Arctic coverage that *may* have existed, it still doesn't change the fact that a *relative* warming pause did in fact occur(although some reliable evidence exists that this was largely due to the oceans taking in more heat than they did in the '80s and the first half of the '90s), despite what this fringe outlier study claims. I'm afraid that RealClimate missed the ball on this one, Nick.


Conservative estimates of the basic global temperature records lead to excessively conservative estimates of future warming.
Once again (even though you constantly claim otherwise) things turn out to be worse than expected with regard to climate change.


Nope, not in the least. I'm sure that's what you want to believe, but once again, you guys fall short.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
64. Perhaps you missed this part
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:50 PM
Dec 2013
But errors in global temperature trends arise if these areas evolve differently from the global mean. That’s been the case over the last 15 years in the Arctic, which has warmed exceptionally fast, as shown by satellite and reanalysis data and by the massive sea ice loss there. This problem was analysed for the first time by Rasmus in 2008 at RealClimate, and it was later confirmed by other authors in the scientific literature.


So, the issue has been noticed since 2008 by multiple people, not just one "fringe outlier" study as you call it. And even you can't argue that the Arctic isn't warming far faster than the rest of the planet, given the peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary (a simple online search will give you HUNDREDS of journal articles to that effect).

So, in this thread I've presented two independent, peer-reviewed studies saying that climate models are overly conservative (this one and the US Navy study I posted earlier). You've presented nothing.

But I'll be sure to put AverageJoe90, random dude from the Internet, above RealClimate, a well-recognized source of information on climate change, in my go-to reading list of climate change research.
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
65. There's still a problem that you refuse to acknowledge, Nick.
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:37 PM
Dec 2013

There is no dispute that the Arctic has been warming faster than any other place on Earth. It's the claim of no slowdown in overall warming that makes this particular study problematic, because all the other research says otherwise(as I pointed out, the oceans did take in a lot of extra heat starting in the middle '90s).

And even you can't argue that the Arctic isn't warming far faster than the rest of the planet, given the peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary (a simple online search will give you HUNDREDS of journal articles to that effect).


Not that I ever did, mind you. But then again, that didn't stop you from building a strawman, amirite?


So, in this thread I've presented two independent, peer-reviewed studies saying that climate models are overly conservative (this one and the US Navy study I posted earlier).


And all you need to do is look at the record. At least two of the first three studies I mentioned may indeed have been conservative, and the third one mentioning a possible 3.5*C rise is up for debate. But none of these others were any sort of conservative at all, and that's what you apparently completely fail to realize(after all, if these already highly unreasonably pessimistic estimates of 5*C by 2050 or 3.5*C by 2035 for two of the most egregious examples, are "conservative" in the eyes of doomers, then what's the most "accurate" view?).


But I'll be sure to put AverageJoe90, random dude from the Internet, above RealClimate, a well-recognized source of information on climate change, in my go-to reading list of climate change research.


And normally, they *do* get things right. But this is one of those (rare) times where they've dropped the ball; it does happen, you know, we're only human.
 

CFLDem

(2,083 posts)
33. So when these alarmists
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 02:52 PM
Dec 2013

are making their calculations, are they taking into account the impact that emission free automobiles and artificial meat will have?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
50. you do realize there is no such thing as an emission-free automobile
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:12 PM
Dec 2013

or are they woven out of organically grown hemp?

Because extracting metals, making steel, manufacturing and assembling the parts and shipping the things to the end-user uses as much, if not more, energy and blows off as much, if not more, pollution as the fuel that won't be running them would have.

 

CFLDem

(2,083 posts)
52. I apologize for my egregious genralization.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:44 PM
Dec 2013

Correction: do these climate alarmists account for dramatically reduced emission vehicles?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
54. dramatically reduced emission vehicles are irrelevent until the existing fleet is largely replaced
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 10:41 PM
Dec 2013

and replacing the fossil fuel burning fleet will itself cause equal emissions to the old autos currently on the roads.

In the meantime, if we are not already in runaway warming, it is likely we will be before that happens. And don't forget that driving fossil fuel autos is only one factor in climate change. Manufacturing plants are huge. Agriculture, from running machinery and equipment to petroleum-based fertilizer. Heating buildings -- hospitals are massive fuel burners, not to mention manufacturing everything from the tubes and needles we draw blood with, the gloves we change dozens of times/day, to the reagents, washes, qc, etc. The office building I also work in is another massive fuel-burner. Keeping satellites aloft to run the internet and other spying operations are another. And then there is shipping dead chickens to China to be processed into mcnuggets and shipped back here again. Massive, massive waste throughout a system that burns massive amounts of fossil fuels every hour of every day.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
67. I used to criticize the format rather than the content too... but then I learned how to read better.
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 11:49 AM
Dec 2013

I used to criticize the format rather than the content too... but then I learned how to read better, and to keep my petulance to myself.

Good luck!

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
42. “We’ve Never Been Here as a Species”
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 07:34 PM
Dec 2013

Which is true for every stage in our evolution. Let us see how fast we can evolve, climate change it is a self starting game with a countdown timer.

Everything else is just FUD.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
43. You've attracted the Corporate Chorus, nice.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 07:41 PM
Dec 2013


Since the whole denial thing isn't working so well, it's time to bring out the "it's not as bad as all that" meme.
& & R

countryjake

(8,554 posts)
45. Yup, isn't that special...
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 07:54 PM
Dec 2013

Nothing to be worried about, move along now, move along...


Big KICK & Recommend!

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
71. Or rather, the "humanity is doomed, we cannot survive, give in" meme.
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 05:54 PM
Dec 2013

To be truthfully honest, that, and it's sister meme, "It's always much worse than expected, much faster, all the time!" could *only* have been widely popularized by the .1%; I'd bet my life savings on that.

The denial may not be working anymore, but I'm afraid I can't say the same for outright fearmongering & muddying the waters(and there's plenty of both!).....and unfortunately, that still *IS* hurting us right now.

Berlum

(7,044 posts)
53. The Republicon Lie Machine and their SuckerPuppets can lie about reality till their money runs out
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 09:59 PM
Dec 2013

It does sucker some folks. But it does not change the ugly reality they work so hard to deny and disguise.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
59. The other pole is also losing ice mass
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 11:34 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.wunderground.com/climate/facts/antarctica_is_losing_ice_sheet.asp

The increasing sea ice is addressed as well as due to the increased freshwater runoff from melting ice sheets lowering the freezing point of waters around the continent.

Also:

In Antarctica, sea ice grows quite extensively during winter but nearly completely melts away during the summer (see above). That is where the important difference between antarctic and arctic sea ice exists. Arctic sea ice lasts all the year round, there are increases during the winter months and decreases during the summer months but an ice cover does in fact remain in the North which includes quite a bit of ice from previous years (Figure 1). Essentially Arctic sea ice is more important for the earth's energy balance because when it melts, more sunlight is absorbed by the oceans whereas Antarctic sea ice normally melts each summer leaving the earth's energy balance largely unchanged.

ryan_cats

(2,061 posts)
68. What would happen to the sea level if ALL the ice were to melt?
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:00 PM
Dec 2013

What would happen to the sea level if ALL the ice were to melt? Who would it affect besides coastal regions (duh)?

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