Because air travel isn't miserable enough............

[marmar]

(NYT) Flying coach can be a bruising experience these days.

Rory Rowland said he was rudely rebuffed after he asked the person in front of him not to recline his seat on a red-eye flight. When he later got up to use the bathroom, and the other passenger had fallen asleep, “I hip-checked his seat like you wouldn’t believe,” Mr. Rowland, a speaker and consultant, said, then feigned innocence when the enraged passenger complained to a flight attendant.

With air travelers increasingly feeling like packed sardines, flying has become a contact sport, nowhere more than over the reclined seat.

Now, it is only getting worse, as airlines re-examine every millimeter of the cabin.

Over the last two decades, the space between seats — hardly roomy before — has fallen about 10 percent, from 34 inches to somewhere between 30 and 32 inches. Today, some airlines are pushing it even further, leaving only a knee-crunching 28 inches. ..........................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/23/business/on-jammed-jets-sardines-turn-on-one-another.html?hp&_r=0

[LeftyMom]

1. I find the seats to be uncomfortably small, and I'm tiny.

I have no idea how people who are average sized, let alone any bigger, manage air travel.

[Lizzie Poppet]

8. Same here.

I'm pretty small (5'3" albeit with odd proportions: short-ish torso and long legs for a shrimp). On some airlines, even I'm a bit cramped for room, especially if the person in front of me is reclining their chair.

[LumosMaxima]

19. That's about how I'm shaped.

I'm a little shorter (under 5'2&quot , but my waist is high, so my legs are fairly long for someone of my size. I've been on flights where the person in front of me had their seat so far back that it was physically impossible for me to stand up.

[Orrex]

2. Mr Rowland comes across as an asshole.

Airline seats sound almost as bad as Greyhound's luxury accommodations.

[Gormy Cuss]

16. Actually, the "Greyhound" class of buses have more leg room,the seats don't recline as much,

there's no middle seat and curbside checking is free.

[Orrex]

21. I imagine that the plane's cabin might be someone wider than the bus

But of course that depends on the model.

I spent 44 hours on a Greyhound years ago, and I would sooner ride on the outside of a plane than take that same bus journey again.

[Gormy Cuss]

25. 44 hours would be traumatic.

I spent eight hours on a bus once and that was too long for me. However, these days I take a nonstop 100 mile ride. It's a cellphone free zone but has free wifi and an airplane-like video system showing a free movie. It wouldn't be a practical alternative to my 3000 mi plane trip but it is nice to be able to doze or relax on the way to/from the major airport.

[HughBeaumont]

3. I haven't flown since 2011, and don't unless I absolutely, positively have to.

For example, if I have to go far West or South (as I will have to this year for our World Cup in Dallas) for whatever reason. Anything else, I just drive everywhere. Flying is now an inconvenient, uncomfortable and expensive pain in the ass that's not even worth it anymore.

Between

* the overbooked filled-to-capacity flights,
* the crying babies and toddlers,
* the sardine seats that cannot accomodate an average 10-year-old girl,
* 90% of the time being surrounded by personal-space-clueless seatmates (almost always males) and full-recliners in the front (again, almost always males),
* the dank smell of sweat, B.O., bad breath and stale cigarettes,
* the TSA feel-ups and full-body scans,
* delays for whatever reason,
* long security lines,
* overcharging on bags,
* never being able to find a space for your bag because people take 2-4 medium suitcases with them on the flight

. . . and most importantly, the expense (I can't get under $80 one way, on weekdays, for a city that's 5.60 hours away by car) . . . I'd rather just DRIVE. In the case of Cleveland to DC, I'm actually paying less in gas and turnpike and the travel time isn't that much greater.

[mn9driver]

4. Round trip fare New York to LA: $224

FedEx would charge $3866.00 to ship you on the same round trip in a 28x23x48 box (the same space the worst of the airlines give a seated passenger), with drop off and pick up at the airport cargo facility-pickup or drop off anywhere else costs more. Assuming of course, that both you and your luggage fit inside those dimensions and the total weight of everything including the box is 150 lbs. They don't provide pop or peanuts, either.

I don't think the passenger airlines are doing that bad a job, considering what they charge.

[ryan_cats]

5. Wonderful passive aggressive behavior...

Wonderful passive aggressive behavior. I always recline my seat, I don't care what the guy behind me says, he can recline his and I always raise it back up during 'meal' service. I never complain when the person in front of me reclines either. Since I'm small, I, for some reason, always get someone that really needed to have two seats sit next to me and it's really annoying. Nothing is as bad as sitting in the middle seats on a wide-body for 11 hours though.

[hlthe2b]

6. I think the airlines are making nearly all total assholes...

One of my most miserable flights was with the 6 foot 4 inch man in front reclined in my lap. His seat recline was broken and despite flight attendant's (and co-pilot's) polite request on my behalf that he not recline, he echoed your comment "I always recline my seat, I don't care what the "guy" behind me says..." They tried to give me a break and let me stand by the galley as much as possible, but by the time I got to my destination, my leg was so numb i could scarcely walk off the plane.

Common Courtesy is apparently totally dead... The airline did ban this asshole from flying again and he was met by local cops, though not charged with making a disturbance afaik.

[ryan_cats]

7. If I'm crushing someone's knees, I don't recline.

If I'm crushing someone's knees, I don't recline. How did the guy in front of you recline if his seat was broken and if it was broken, why did they ban him from flying?

I've had people the same size as me ask me not to recline and then they recline. Not going to happen. If I am on the second to last seat I don't recline all the way since the last seats usually don't recline.

People need to use common sense on this. Put your seat up when meals come and don't crush the person behind you. That gives you a lot of latitude.

[hlthe2b]

9. the release was broken so that it did not catch at the three inch (or whatever) point...

but instead went all the way down to my knees and the catch for the tray. I had to wedge my underseat bag so that my legs could wind around and prevent him from totally lying in my lap. It was a very ugly scene and this man clearly thought he was entitled above all others.

The airlines can ban whomever they please and in particular those who become abusive with their flight attendants and staff--not to mention fellow passengers.

i'm glad to hear you at least wouldn't inflict on another what this incredibly rude man did.

But clearly the attitude that no one else matters is becoming all too prevalent.

[ryan_cats]

29. OK, that guy was being a scumbag...

OK, that guy was being a scumbag. He knew he was crushing you and did it anyway? I'm sorry but people do need to realize that there are other people on the planet. Some people just like to be d***heads. How long was your flight and what airline? I mean the flight attendants couldn't get this guy to compromise, what were they doing?


Wow, post #1000 after around 8 years!!!

[HipChick]

12. An airline can't actually ban someone from flying..

They can ban them from using their own airline though...

[hlthe2b]

13. That is what I said... They most certainly can ban from from their airline.

And, That is what they did... Not sure why anyone is confused on that point.

The AIRLINE BANNED HIM FROM FLYING AGAIN ON THEIR AIRLINE> There should be no confusion--this is well within their rights.
And should anyone doubt they can do so, kindly push the envelope on someone else's flight.

[wercal]

10. Lock the seats upright

Since my knees are usually wedged in anyway, if the guy in front of me tries to recline...he just plain can't. But its dumb anyway - if I recline, I rob the person behind me of the ability to use the tray. I honestly have never reclined on an airplane - was drilled into me as a little kid not to play with the seats, and I've grown to think its rude.

[Sheldon Cooper]

11. I can sympathize up to a point.

The guy leaning back may well have been a giant asshole. But the flight was a red-eye, when I assume a lot of people will want to lie back and catch a few winks. I don't think that was unreasonable. If this was during a daylight flight, that would be another story.

[geek tragedy]

14. This is consumer-driven, sadly. People choose flights based on cost, time, and cost.

How many people choose one airline over the other because of comfort?

Adjusting for inflation, airfares have dropped significantly over the past 4 decades.

[Logical]

15. Seats should not recline at all! nt

[Swede Atlanta]

17. Let's discuss economics here....

Since deregulation the passenger air transport industry has struggled to be profitable.

Yes, there are years when they eek out a profit but if you compare their margins to other businesses they are off the charts downward.

The industry itself has created a situation where it is difficult to be profitable. They have created expansive frequent flyer programs that are expensive to establish, market and maintain. They have established complex and confusing fare structures that defy understanding. They set up complex pricing algorithms that decide how many Q seats should be sold from A to B on a flight that goes from A to B to C. But if a passenger wants to go from A to C, no Q seats are available. Managing these complexities has nothing to do with cost but rather confusing the market.

If we were honest we would agree the following
(a) Air travel needs to be re-regulated, pricing and other practices need to be monitored with airlines having the opportunity to present pricing and program proposals that make sense, i.e. are profitable
(b) Airline executives are incompetent at managing their industry and generating sustainable profits
(c) Government needs to charge airlines for the services they provide such as screening, ATC, etc. and let airlines pass those costs on to passengers in a transparent manner
(d) Airlines need to focus not on market share but on making each passenger a profitable passenger
(e) Everyone does not have a "right" to fly. The corollary here is of course that we have adequate and appropriate ground transportation in the form of bus and rail to meet the needs of those that cannot pay a "profitable" price for an airline ticket
(f) No more "nickel" and "diming" passengers. An airplane ticket should include the ability to reserve a seat and check a bag, period. Anything above one bag or for premium seating could be charged
(g) Minimum seat width and legroom should be regulated
(h) Right to organize should be strengthened for airline employees

[politichew]

18. I am 6'4", have never flown, and this doesn't make me want to anytime soon. nt

[MineralMan]

20. I'm over 6 feet tall. Not much, and less as I near 70 years of age.

I most often fly on Sun Country Airlines, a small airline based in Minnesota. Their seat pitch is short, but they have disabled the reclining capabilities of all their seats in coach. It makes a world of difference. My knees are still in contact with the seat ahead, but it won't get any worse during the flight.

Still, it's tight quarters, but Sun Country fares are among the lowest anywhere, and they fly where I want to go. I can be uncomfortable for a few hours if it saves me some money. But disabling the reclining seat backs is a good step they took, I think.

[joeglow3]

22. This what we demand.

If people were willing to pay for comfort, we would see an airline cine out with more room and clean the clocks of their competitors. But, as we know, it doesn't happen.

[moondust]

23. Can't wait for the cell phone approval!

Talk about a nightmare that you can't escape for hours...

[mokawanis]

24. I'm 6'3" and have a lot of trouble on planes

Because my knees bump against the seat in front of me I have to sit up straight and turn my legs a little. On long flights I usually end up with mild back spasms. Sleeping on a plane is nearly impossible for me, even when it's a late flight and I'm really tired.

Next March I'm driving over 1,000 miles for a hiking trip because I hate flying so much.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

26. so it's an overnight "redeye" flight and he expect the person in front of him NOT to recline?

what an asshole. Sounds like Mr. Douchebag is going to have to cough up a couple of extra dollars for "extra legroom" seats or something. Pathetic.

Not to take away from the article's premise though. The airlines must be raking it in because they have lower fuel costs than recent years, charge for everything under the sun, and have sophisiticated booking/pricing systems allowing them to maximize revenue on each plane.

[Golden Raisin]

27. Everything about flying coach

today is ghastly, starting with the endless lines, extra charges & indignities on the ground in the terminal and then being crammed into onboard space sardines would rebel against. It's especially hard on those of us who remember when flying (even coach) was glamorous and enjoyable. And just wait until they start allowing inflight cellphone conversations. You think the battles for overhead bins, or rude recliners are something? Just wait until you're stuck next to some entitled loudmouth yacking their private business for a 7-hour flight. Woo-hoo!

[pansypoo53219]

28. the train may take longer, but boy do they have roomy seats!

[Lost_Count]

30. Mr. Rowland is an ass and a baby...

The guy in front of him purchased that seat and has every right to recline in it. Fuck off or fly first class...