Snowden’s heroic work: Media must match his courage: “Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.”

[kpete]

Early this year, Edward Snowden said,

“Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.”

Our goal in 2014 is to help make that prediction a reality.

Edward Snowden’s heroic work:
Our media must match his courage
The media must continue to push back in 2014 against the government's violations of privacy and civil liberties
CINDY JEFFERS


...........we have seen an unprecedented rise in the scope and intensity of efforts to silence journalists.

Unfortunately, these attacks are working. Nearly one in four American reporters have self-censored for fear of government surveillance, according to an October survey. This self-censorship is taking the form of turning down assignments, limiting research and avoiding some topics altogether for fear of falling under the watchful eye of our government’s sprawling, quasi-legal surveillance apparatus.

Even worse than the self-censorship is the outright hostility many in the media have shown toward those who have revealed — and continue to reveal — the mind-blowing scope of the mass surveillance dragnet that is currently monitoring and/or storing what appears to be a huge percentage of all of our digital communications, including phone calls. Edward Snowden, working with Salon alum Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Barton Gellman, revealed that those at the very highest levels of our ostensibly democratic government are lying to us. Instead of investigating and demanding accountability from the perpetrators, too many in the media have opted for metaphorically shooting the messengers (indeed, some would apparently prefer the shooting to be literal).

Given this state of affairs, discussions of objectivity and activism in journalism take on an urgent importance. In a recent conversation, David Daley, our editor in chief, said, “There are higher ideals than objectivity,” a quote I carry with me in my work.

.........................

As we enter a new year, Salon will continue its mission of producing fearless journalism, sparking meaningful conversations and providing a platform for a diversity of talented writers. We are grateful to you, our readers, for supporting Salon, and hope we can continue to inspire the dialogues we see on the site every day exploring these questions of democracy, technology and power.

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/23/edward_snowdens_heroic_work_our_media_must_match_his_courage/

[riderinthestorm]

1. 25% of reporters self censor out of fear of the govt!!!

Oh my god.

Huge K&R

[planetc]

38. and the rest are too busy doing fluff pieces on bands (NPR) and ...

and covering stuff the internet has already taken note of, and reporting the endless politics of left vs. right to ever get down to telling us what the facts are, or any interesting implications of those facts. Watergate could not happen in 2013, because in 1973, people, including journalists, were shocked that the president could lie to them, and could subvert government agencies to cover up political activities. No one is shocked any more. Journalists' only objective is to stay off a government watch list, or a no-fly list. Daniel Shor was proud to be on Pres. Nixon's enemies' list. Americans are either so well informed that they are utterly cynical, or so ill informed they're happy to hate the latest political scapegoat.

[Berlum]

2. "But, but, but we don't do truth or insight. We do spin and spew." - Corporate Media Borg, Inc. (R)

[randome]

3. I wonder what his duped fiance thinks about such malleable matters as 'truth'.

Doesn't seem like anyone cares about her.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Scuba]

4. LOL

[L0oniX]

5. Show your care about her with your very own op.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

7. Well...she has you.

[riderinthestorm]

8. And his garage boxes!

Lol

[sabrina 1]

9. Lol, yes, no one cares about the Whistle Blowers fiance.

That was funny!

Here's who doesn't care about her, or any of us, those who support the destruction of our Constitutional Rights. If we had a Government that respected the Constitution, Snowden's fiancee and he would probably be happily married by now and none of us would have ever heard of them.

I'm sure she is very grateful, as most of us are, to her courageous fiancee for standing up for everyone's, including her, rights.

Snowden is a hero and the more we find out the more apparent that becomes.

What SHOULD happen when a Whistle Blower reveals corruption in government is that the allegations should be investigated, NOT the Whistle Blower and those found to be engaging in corruption, or lying to Congress eg, should be prosecuted.

But we would have to be living in a real democracy for that to happen and thanks to the warmongers and Wall St. criminals, it will be a while before we can restore our rights and a whole lot more Whistle Blowers until they simply can't keep up the facade any longer.

[Fawke Em]

11. And, I bet you also say Clinton's BJ is of no concern to the public.

Snowden is no different. His personal life is his. What does his fiance have to do with the fact that Snowden's actions have forced the average American and our roll-over media to rethink the shit they're fed by the government?

[randome]

16. Simply pointing out the fact that Snowden only cares about 'truth' when he thinks it benefits him.

The truth is that the NSA spying on non-Americans is a non-issue to most people so these repetitive threads trying to gin up outrage are getting tiresome.

The metadata is a different issue but since it was a known practice that started in 2006, few gave it any attention until Snowden started leaking classified documents with a casual 'Oh, and by the way, look what else I discovered!' approach.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Uncle Joe]

42. How did Snowden revealing this information benefit him?

His rising career in the NSA is over.

He had to leave the country, his family, friends and loved ones, he's being labeled a traitor by authoritarians that could care less about the American People's civil liberties.

No doubt his family is suffering from this episode as well.

I see little to no personal upside to Snowden for bringing about these revelations and I don't believe personal benefit motivated him.

[randome]

45. He wanted to be a hero, I think.

It's just my opinion, of course. But since he has never explained what he meant when he said he "saw things" and since nothing he stole was any kind of 'smoking gun', one has to wonder why he bothered.

Combine that with the facts that he failed to graduate high school, washed out in the military and apparently failed to make any friends his entire life and the picture I see is of an isolated loner who dreamed of being someone important.

Again, in my opinion.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Uncle Joe]

51. If Snowden wanted to be a hero, then he must have thought his actions in revealing this information

would make him one with the American People.

Apparently Snowden isn't the only one that "saw things" as millions of Americans; that believe the government shouldn't store or track our every electronic move and connection in violation of the 4th Amendment sees things as well.

Whether he graduated from high school or remained in the military is irrelevant as he was doing quite well in the NSA.

Your statement of failed to make "any" friends is too broadbased, Snowden had friends and family that cared and care about him.

[randome]

58. No one is tracking your every electronic move. At least so far as we know.

The only thing that Snowden 'revealed' was a legal warrant for keeping copies of the metadata. Which we already knew about, by the way.

All the other international spying going on is a bit worrisome but it's hardly worth claims of totalitarianism and 24/7 surveillance of Americans. The NSA is specifically prohibited from spying on Americans.

The only 'friend' of Snowden's who came forward, from what I recall, was someone who knew him in, I believe, the CIA. But even she said she didn't know him very well. No other friends have come forward, have they? His father thinks he's being duped by Wikileaks & Company.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Uncle Joe]

65. That's not what this former top NSA Official and creator of the system says.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-top-nsa-official-we-are-now-in-a-police-state/5362080

Bill Binney is the high-level NSA executive who created the agency’s mass surveillance program for digital information. A 32-year NSA veteran widely regarded as a “legend” within the agency, Binney was the senior technical director within the agency and managed thousands of NSA employees.

(snip)

By way of background, the government is spying on virtually everything we do.

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges.

(snip)

The NSA also ships Americans’ most confidential, sensitive information to foreign countries like Israel(and here), the UK and other countries … so they can “unmask” the information and give it back to the NSA … or use it for their own purposes

[randome]

67. I know. And if he can point to any evidence this is happening, let's see some jail time...

...for those responsible.

But Binney has been away from the NSA for, what, 12 years now? He comes out with a new 'revelation' every year or so. He's starting to sound like one of those guys who walks around the city with a sign that says 'The End Is Near'.

If he has anything to back up his assertions, let the chips fall where they may. I don't see myself as a defender of the NSA or anything else. I simply don't think all the international incidents and conspiracy theories that started in June are worth the energy put into them.

As with everything else, absent evidence to the contrary.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Uncle Joe]

84. Would Binney have come out with this without all the energy being put in to it?

I don't think so.

All the energy being put in to the Washington Post's reporting regarding the Watergate Scandal/Conspiracy is what caused that dam to eventually crack., it didn't happen overnight.

Binney created the system and it has only been expanded since if anyone should know the consequences it would be him.

[blueinannarbor]

59. He didn't have to leave

It was his choice to leave. Frankly, I think he naively thought other nations would treat him more favorably than they did, but ultimately he stands to benefit significantly from his revelations. He's had a movie made about him, his memoirs will be an instant bestseller. This most recent gambit at trying to provide a quid pro quo with Brazil just underscores his naivete. First of all, don't we really understand that all of those nations we were spying on are spying on us, too? That's just the way things work in this world. Jonathan Pollard, a CIA employee sold secrets to Israel a while back. Israel is one of our strongest allies and remains so. Do you think Brazil, who's probably spying on us as we speak, is going to open up the espionage cabinets to someone who in the grand scheme of international politics is as insignificant as Jonathan Pollard? Of course not. And please, don't be so ridiculous to assume that someone who doesn't own an "Edward Snowden-Hero" action figure is either an authoritarian or doesn't care about civil liberties. That kind of hyperbole really does a disservice to highly nuanced issue.

[Uncle Joe]

66. Once Snowden decided to reveal this information, he didn't have any choice but to leave and

we're not just talking about spying on other countries.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/former-top-nsa-official-we-are-now-in-a-police-state/5362080

Bill Binney is the high-level NSA executive who created the agency’s mass surveillance program for digital information. A 32-year NSA veteran widely regarded as a “legend” within the agency, Binney was the senior technical director within the agency and managed thousands of NSA employees.

(snip)

By way of background, the government is spying on virtually everything we do.

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges.

(snip)

The NSA also ships Americans’ most confidential, sensitive information to foreign countries like Israel(and here), the UK and other countries … so they can “unmask” the information and give it back to the NSA … or use it for their own purposes.

[Uncle Joe]

86. I doubt Snowden decided to risk execution for a book or movie deal. n/t

[ChisolmTrailDem]

54. "...so these repetitive threads trying to gin up outrage are getting tiresome."

And yet here you are, posting and bumping this thread. You've been here long enough to know about the hide thread feature. You can actually hide any thread about Snowden that you want.

But you don't. Hmmmmm.... Why is that?

[randome]

64. My NSA masters pay me a buttload of money, that's why!!!

I like debates. They get my creative juices flowing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[riderinthestorm]

74. If you were debating that would be one thing. Instead you repeat the exact same talking points

You have your ste, the other 2 or 3 of you have theirs snd you all reliably check in on every Snowden thread with the same points regardless of the new information in the OP.

That's not debate

[sendero]

100. All you are pointing out..

... is that even when your position has been thoroughly trounced by the FACTS, you stand there like the black knight claiming it is only a flesh wound.

Snowden has blown the whistle on one of the most egregious, pernicious and dangerous out of control agencies of our time and you want to talk about his girlfriend or try to pull the right-wing "it's old news" card.

Give up, you have lost your credibility already, why make it worse?

[hueymahl]

19. Thank you NSA Spin-Meister

Your posts are always good for a laugh!

[cantbeserious]

25. Misdirection - Such A Fine Example Of Logical Fallacy In Play

eom

[Pholus]

28. Won't somebody think of the children^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H fiance.

So, is it more of a crime that Snowden duped one fiance

OR

that our government duped ~320 million of its own citizens?

I love relativity -- and so do you, apparently.

[mindwalker_i]

30. Oh won't someone please think of the

childr... I mean, girlfriend?

This is just an attempt to divert the discussion about the serious issues of our government spying on us to stupid shit that doesn't matter. The bottom line is that Snowden gave us evidence of what our government is doing. I appreciate that. If you don't, fine, but deal the the FACT that the collection of phone calls, phone data, and internet traffic violated the constitution. There are reasons why we have that constitution - to prevent government from having too much power over us.

[randome]

34. Snowden is the diversion. So is this OP, which is simply to praise him instead of discuss the issues

That's probably because discussions always lead in the same direction.

The NSA is tasked with monitoring foreign communications and keeping copies of the telecom metadata is not against the law.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[mindwalker_i]

69. Yes, there are people who lead the discussions in the same direction

Namely, away from the issue of the government collecting data on us. And the same excuses for what the government is doing keep getting trotted out, like it not being illegal to collect metadata. A judge just ruled on that and yeah, the supreme court will likely say it's just fine.

And there's a lot of reason to be highly skeptical that the government ONLY collects metadata.

That should be illegal too because 1: it can easily be misused for blackmail by those (government or contractor) who have access to the data (what, they aren't supposed to have access to the data? Oh, well, bummer) 2) people will be afraid to associate with other people or organizations because they might be linked to something that can be used against them, even though it's perfectly legal (you looked into abortion clinics, and you live in Georgia?) 3) it's harmful to a democracy (the reasons are hinted at already and really, this should be obvious).

[randome]

70. I have no problem at all with stopping the collection of metadata. I've said that many times.

But it is not currently against the law. Snowden's leaking classified documents to the world, 99% of which has been anything BUT about domestic data collection, has done little to advance that conversation beyond Breitbart-like screams of 'STOP SPYING ON US!'

The more hyperbole that is brought to bear on a subject, the more people tune out. In fact, if anyone but Obama was in office, the push-back from the President and allies would make it less likely for change to take place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[DesMoinesDem]

36. Your obvious attempt at distraction aside, where did you come up with fiance?

I've only read that she was his girlfriend. Is this just one more lie that you pull out of your toolbox?

[randome]

47. I guess they weren't officially engaged so I'll take that back.

But she apparently thought they were 'deeply in love'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339202/Lindsay-Mills-Edward-Snowden-set-wed-fled-Hong-Kong-leak-NSA-secrets.html

Family friends told MailOnline that Ed Snowden, 29, wanted to be with stunning pole dancer Lindsay Mills for the rest of his life but took the decision to throw it all away to expose the US government.

They were deeply in love and on her blog Mills, 28, dotingly called him her ‘man of mystery’ who she had followed around the world for the last four years.

[DesMoinesDem]

50. Just as I thought.

You've been using that lie for awhile now.

[randome]

52. It wasn't a lie, it was an error. You corrected me.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[ChisolmTrailDem]

55. Ok, how about a more direct approach: Why are you engaging in misdirection and distraction? n/t

[randome]

60. The article and OP is about Snowden's 'courage'. I disagree that he's courageous, that's all.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[bvar22]

81. Dude... that is lower than pathetic.

You really need to get some new Talking Points.

[yodermon]

85. you go for the argumentum ad hominem every damn time.

it's a logical fallacy, you know.

[WillyT]

93. I Wonder How The Duped Boxes In The Garage Feel...

[marmar]

103. That's the best you can do?

[demoncrat]

6. Snowdon is a traitor

and should be treated as such in my opinion.

[RC]

10. So you approve of what the NSA is doing and the fact that our government is lying to us to try to

mitigate the damage to their unlawful and unconstitutional spying? Instead of working to fix the problem.
Good to know.

Oh, BTY, the word you are looking for is "Patriot", not traitor. He adhered to his oath to uphold and defend the Constitution.
Even a cursory reading of the 4th Amendment would show that what the NSA is doing, does not jive with either the meaning or the spirit of the 4th Amendment

[Fawke Em]

12. THIS.

"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Ben Franklin

[treestar]

31. Essential liberty that comes from the government having

Verizon's metadata?

Ben didn't expect a revolution every day.

[bvar22]

83. The "its ONLY the Meta-Data" has been debunked many times.

Do try to keep up.

Even IF "it is ONLY the Meta-Data" were true,
that would still be Bad Enough to merit the collective outrage of the American citizenry.

Here, I'll let Joe Biden (version 2006) explain it to you:

[treestar]

87. That doesn't prove it is anything other than metadata

That just means he didn't like Bush getting it. Now he's in the Executive Branch, he has another view. Surprise, surprise.

Still, those patterns of calls may or may not help find terrorists, but they are useless to suppress dissent. Dissenters are best found in their blogs, and their books and TV appearances, or on street corners loudly saying they dissent. And that's a free country. Nothing can be done to them for it.

[mindwalker_i]

13. Care to elaborate as to why?

I've seen a lot of people make that accusation, and the reasoning usually comes down to, "He stole classified documents." However, if the documents are classified in order to hide a (much bigger) crime, and spying of all Americans' communications definitely falls into that catagory, then stealing and releasing those documents ceases to be a crime at all and in fact becomes a heroic act.

Also, when I see people call Snowden a traitor and completely ignore the broader questions raised about what the government is doing with the data they are collecting, I can't help but have serious question about the person calling him a traitor.

[treestar]

33. But they aren't spying on the communications of all Americans

That false charge is equally unfair. He only exposed that they kept Verizon's metadata. Not that they could even use it for much.

There is not point in keeping the emails of all Americans. They aren't doing that. If they did, there would be no point. It's mostly useless to them.

The argument that the government is trying to suppress dissent is just ridiculous. From Boner to Occupy, we are allowed to dissent loudly and publicly, so why would they need our emails? No one can be arrested for anything they say short of threatening death on somebody else.

People are building up this horror in their minds to the point where it's starting to look ridiculous and undermines any real concern about government spying. And who it's really done on. It's never put, for example, into a concern for the most likely victims at this time, Muslims. Real concern with that would be going to the mosques to see if they feel spied on.

[mindwalker_i]

71. "It's all just fine and dandy"

> There is no point in keeping the e-mails of all Americans

Not for the stated purpose of catching terrorists there isn't, but it's been pointed out recently that the whole "program" hasn't done much for that anyway. It seems possible if not likely that there is a completely different motive for this whole system. There have been several suggestions as to what those possibilities are.

> No one can be arrested for anything they say

People were arrested durring Occupy, and a lot of charges were later dropped. What was the point of arresting them? What was the point of pepper-spraying them? It wasn't to get criminal convictions, merely to scare people away from participating. With income inequality at record levels, Occupy was a natural way for people to express dissatisfaction and probably the most non-violent, but the government seems to be heavily invested in maintaining the status quo, even though it probably can't be maintained without, eventually, being very brutal. People are losing out on the economic prosperity of this country, even though they provide the work for it, and eventually that will have to change just like has happened throughout history.

I'm betting there are a whole lot of ways the government suppresses dissent that we don't see and recognize. Even so, there are a lot that we do see and have noted. The U.K. has practiced "kettling," but here we have more overt forms (remember the guy who had the gas grenade trown at him?).

So you labeling it "ridiculous" doesn't make it so. You not recognizing the clear cases where the government has actively suppressed dissent is ridiculous.

[Wilms]

72. We are amused. n/t

[woo me with science]

14. And the influx continues...

There's an important broader story here about the growing propaganda state.

As the corporate plutocracy has taken over our government and dismantled the free press of a democratic society, they have been creating a pervasive and relentless propaganda machine to replace it. From the purchased mainstream media to the incessant political astroturfing of the internet, the propaganda machine in this country has never been more manipulative, dishonest, non-transparent, relentless, and determinedly pervasive, systematically infiltrating even discussion boards like DU.

What is being done to this country is well beyond creepy and disturbing at this point. We have been overtaken by corporatists intent on corporate fascism, and we have *already* been stripped of major foundations of our free society, including our right to privacy, our right to free speech, our right to protest, and the free press that was our most important alarm for and protection against government abuse and tyranny.

The influx is deliberate and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

[SoapBox]

15. Snowden DID expose national secrets.

There are other ways to bring attention to the NSA.

This little plotter and schemer, who fled America for China and Russia, needs so jail time.

It's hilarious that he and Greenwad, fled to foreign countries...guess they aren't such good Americans after all.

[cantbeserious]

22. With The Current War On Whistleblowers - Please Enlighten Us On How This Would Work

eom

[gussmith]

26. Big Brother Needs A Fact Check

Maybe it may not be illegal to expose illegal actions (fact checked under constitutionality, of course)

[gussmith]

29. Whistle Blowers Need A Forum

And what chance would they have buried in jail by the NSA, CIA, FBI, Marshall's Service, Secret Service, Sheriff Joe, etc., etc.

[woo me with science]

23. The traitors are those who have subverted our democratic, representative government

and perverted it into a surveillance state to crush dissent and expand the power and profit of a few.

Spot-on screenname, there, btw. It perfectly captures the distortion of the Democratic brand by the Third Way.

[cantbeserious]

24. So Does That Make You A Traitor For Supporting The Desecration Of The 4th Amendment

eom

[Logical]

43. LOL, Keith is that you! Get lost 3 post troll! Nt

[Logical]

46. MIRT, look at this posters name! Come on! 3 posts? nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

57. Hit and run post? "DEMONcrat"? Really? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!1!11 n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

62. "demoncrat"? three posts since 2010? n/t

[woo me with science]

17. K&R Courage is contagious.

Applause to Salon for printing this and making the mission explicit.

[benld74]

18. Just do a massive data dump on mulitple mirrored sites ad be done with it

already. This dribbling out of information is MAKING MONEY for those reporting on it. As the shoe company said, JUST DO IT

[Pholus]

37. Disagree, I think the timing has been masterful.

Our own briefed congresspeople couldn't take notes and could not keep up on all the crap before the disclosures -- how would the rest of us be able to digest it all? If it had all been released at once, there would have been a firestorm but it would have burned out quickly before the full impact was felt because people would have been exhausted taking it all in at once.

Nope, I don't think it is profits driving the release, it is real journalism. We've SLOWLY been educated on what is being done.

Last summer we starting finding out the details of the programs. Apologies and proxies fought each disclosure tooth and nail and tried to say we already knew about it or that it isn't that bad. Every apology, excuse and snide dismissal was overturned by the next release and the apologists were pretty much shown to be arguing from ignorance and wishful thinking.

I think at this point, if you've even casually been following the NSA story you have a fair education about what was done and what is possible.

Last week a different type of story got released. It started talking about a few of the targets. Some of them sound very reasonable from a national security perspective (the Israeli government, arms dealers, suspected terrorists) but some of them questionable (people with economic influence whose pronouncements could affect US companies, aid groups).

But in the end it was not that exciting. Arguments could be made that most of them were reasonable, the NSA spokescritter even talked about economic spying being important for our policymakers. I guess. Making the beginning case that all this system was JUSTIFIED by TERRA but not completely motivated by stopping it.

So my prediction for 2014 is that it was the beginning of a series of stories, each more obnoxious than the last and released in the same slow build way. You'd need a firm foundation to understand the abuses and that means understanding the good uses too so that you can see where the slope got slippery. The first leaks -- the good uses with just enough questionable ones to reinforce the concept of what a gray area we're in. I think the stories about dropping NSA morale and the trial balloon to make some kind of deal indicate that perhaps we're in for some interesting stories after the turn of the year.

My personal bet is that the non-Terra (and thus more unpalatable) uses of the system never changed from the abuses the Bushies condoned and we're going to see exactly what the original PNAC plan to control "cyberspace" looks like in practice.

[cantbeserious]

20. Many Cannot Handle The Truth - Including Some Here

eom

[FairWinds]

21. Yeah, those ferriners are just not very patriotic . .

and lots of them in Brazil, Germany, Canada, and elsewhere
do NOT think that "NSA spying on non-Americans is a non-issue".
It's the mark of a really immature intellect to believe that
non-Americans are less than fully human.
Grow up !!

[baldguy]

27. Running away & hiding in totalitarian countries, while sniping at the US govt is not "heroic".

[treestar]

32. +1

The "courage" word applied to Eddie is just - pathetic. It's really reaching and trying to get the uninformed to just assume it and use it.

Courage would have been using the whistleblower law and then facing the charges.

[polichick]

40. "Former NSA Senior Official. "slippery slope toward a totalitarian state""

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023024549

OUR totalitarian state is cool, right?

[Logical]

49. Lol, they have you fooled! Gullible much? nt

[Pholus]

63. Neither was sniping at the redcoats from behind trees.

The establishment typically considers tactics by which they lose dishonorable.

[baldguy]

88. There you go again, painting Obama as the Enemy.

Snowden is not Paul Revere. Not even close.

[Pholus]

92. You seem to have problems with target identification...

This PNAC inspired project was not our President's brainchild. Are you really that much of a Bush/Cheney fan?

[baldguy]

94. You're defending a libertarian Paulite, using the same imagery & talking points as the RW Teabaggers

All with the intention of blaming the black man in the White House for everything that can be propagandized as bad or evil in the world.


And you think *I* have problems?

[Pholus]

97. Namecalling. Guess you ran out of cogent things to say?

So keep right on defending Bush and Cheney's baby to preserve American Dominance into the 21st century.

I am highly disappointed the President didn't undo this massive destruction of my right to be left the hell alone if I am not bothering anyone, but this isn't his baby. He has explained repeatedly that the political risk to him if something did happen is too much. Fine, I can accept that even if I consider it cowardly.

But then you just attached skin color to a policy decision that didn't involve skin color at all.

Why? Does that help you win arguments often when you have nothing useful to add?

Seriously, grow up.

[baldguy]

98. Who is a Bush/Cheney fan?

I'm not the one using arguments from Fox News and Freerepublic against the President and his supporters.

[Pholus]

99. The person defending NSA Dragnet Spying, born from one of the ten PNAC goals.

You do remember PNAC, right? Certainly many of your apologist pals have made the point that this unconstitutional shit got its start before President Obama and, if you actually paid attention, before 9/11.

Why didn't YOU get the memo.

Why did it get started that early? Because its uses are not for TERRA, they are for control. The ability to roll up the next OWS before it gets started.

But by all means, dumb it down to "If you don't like this you hate our (black) President."

I find it deeply amusing that you accuse me of collaboration with the right wing even as you defend one of its most noxious products with every arrow in your (apparently quite limited) quiver.

[baldguy]

101. And yet we didn't hear a peep out of the RW when these programs were implimented

In spite of everyone learning about them a decade ago. But them the RWs SOP is to blame Obama for all of the evil things they're responsible for.

Which is exactly what Snowdens fans are doing. Karl Rove would be proud of you.

[Pholus]

102. You really need to be handheld here, don't you.

Why would the right care when this stuff was created? They thought it was going to PUNCH HIPPIES, dude! Then it was going to catch TERRA-ISTS.

Of course, being short sighted twits, they only woke up to the negatives when it wasn't their guy in charge anymore.

I just am greatly disappointed when people on MY SIDE end up sounding like the ignorant mirror image of that.

[fadedrose]

35. Didn't the government start spying on people back in Hoover's day?

Why is the world so surprised that there are millions of files obtained thru spying. Do anyone think that a person does something immoral or illegal and calls the government so that they'd know about it? Come to think of it, that's what Snowden did...I am shocked that people are shocked. I always knew that phones might be tapped, emails can be read, etc....

Were Hoover's files ever released? They should change the name of his building out of surprise that we didn't know he did this stuff, not for the government, but for his OWN "gotcha" list.

[stevenleser]

56. Snowden didn't reveal anything new. See this EFF timeline and note they left out a lot

Their items from the last 6 months or so are thorough because that is when they compiled this, but they left out a lot prior. Even still, you can see that there have been steady discussions in the media and in the congress and the courts about the limits of NSA surveillance.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[riderinthestorm]

75. That timeline only demonstrates even more profoundly how dramatically Snowden has impacted our aware

67 episodes in the last 6 months v 7, 8, and 11 in the past 3 YEARS!

And your excuse that research on the internet for stuff from (gasp!) last year is too hard and thats why there's such a paltry number of episodes listed is ridiculous.

Your EFF timeline only dramatically demonstrates how much impact Snowden has had

[stevenleser]

76. All you have to do to see I am right is to do your own search of the pre-6 month period.

They decided not to include a ton of stuff.

Again, Snowden has had no impact and he will have no impact.

[riderinthestorm]

82. They "decided" not to include info? Really? That makes this timeline dubious at best

Please feel free to continue to post this timeline. I think its great. It definitively shows the major impact that Snowden's had.

I also think its hilarious that the authors found that doing the research for other episodes was 'too hard" but you want ME to do it?!

[progressoid]

90. "Snowden has had no impact and he will have no impact"?

Riiiiiiight.

[Uncle Joe]

39. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. News is what somebody somewhere wants to suppress; all the rest is advertising. Lord Northcliffe K&R

[PowerToThePeople]

44. Truth will win, but the fight is not an easy one.

I Applaud the sacrifice Snowden has made to help shine the light of truth into what our Government is doing.

Snowden is a true American Patriot.

[KansDem]

48. Great! Start with 9/11...

...and the 28 redacted pages of the Commission's report.

[DCBob]

53. and the truth is... this is much ado about nothing.

imho.

[stevenleser]

61. Yep, a blip in what will be 50 plus years of continuous discussion on limits of NSA surveillance

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Well, the regime thinks it "something" enough to make CYA statements about it.

[DCBob]

77. Well, when there are lunatics are running around screaming with hair on fire..

and the media plays along.. then it does need to be addressed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Lunatics like the ACLU, Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, Daniel Ellsberg?

I'm with the "lunatics".

You?

[DCBob]

91. They are not the lunatics..

of course there are problems regarding this issue.. its just not an urgent crisis that many seem to think it is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. Well, who are the lunatics? The leaders of the countries we spy on?

They seem to think it's a problem that needs to be dealt with pretty urgently.

[Kurovski]

68. K&R. (nt)

[pnwmom]

78. Snowden is NOT a journalist. He's a leaker. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

96. Are the people and papers who published the "leaks" jouranalists?

What about the media who reported the "leaks"?

[polynomial]

79. If half America is in poverty then

Then the other half of America knows there is a half stupid economy. According to Maggie Fox, Senior Health Writer, NBC News, oh yes the media is giving us all the reason and the remedy here. In her write up:

http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/29/20247880-poor-people-arent-stupid-bad-decisions-are-from-being-overwhelmed-study-finds?lite

Poor people are not stupid has a wonderful embedded thesis that Maggie left out.

America is too big to fail is really supposed to be a success statement that prevails. Think about it, America is too big to fail at removing the poverty system for the new world order. The one percent live large while holding economic poverty line with in a respectable bitch point for the poor. In other words political people develop the perfect class society with little to no middle class. Only the poor has to scratch, sweat, sacrifice, jump through commercial hoopla to achieve success. The poor live from paycheck to paycheck making mistakes more often, but the upper crust are too big to fail yet often do fail, but belly up to the federal reserve widow of opportunity to move forward. An admission missed by Maggie because she herself has the muzzle on her.

While the rich stash money to grow with no sweat in the off shore wonderland of Congressional and Senate Sails, rules, and regulations for the free market derivatives that is secret. But, we have the media always ranting that those who worship the political job rave about being business savvy to have the ability to govern. They claim you need to vote for them but still want smaller government then proceed to give away money to whoever, for whatever whenever secretly with that same too big to fail attitude.

Now America has a too big to fail secret derivative market place with secret federal reserve money, and a sequestered secret way to make cuts behind closed doors. Then many have the nerve to say Snowden is treasonous because he identifies a government agency that might very well have insiders sneaking and looking to create indentity theft. Or worse use metadata to develop a political approach to always win elections, or know how to drive political polling for the media. The next election polling is certified by the NSA. LOL.

[ucrdem]

89. Snowden’s heroic work:

[marmar]

104. The anti-Snowden responses to this OP are comedy gold......

........ They've always been pathetic, but now they're just downright comical. Case in point ^

[Tippy]

105. Snowden has done a lot of damage I know many see what he is doing as something good but

I will never see it that way...