General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSure has been an increase of guys picking fights with DU women.
What the FUCK is going on here? What...is this a new sport for some poor saps who have no life?
Fucking sad sacks.
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Don't turn women into victims. I'm tired of that old trick from the patriarch playbook.
trumad
(41,692 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)
Atman
(31,464 posts)
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)the OP used to love posting the pic's from the SI Swimsuit Edition and talk about his trips to strip joints.
You got the eyeroll so right!!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)That's what happens when you enable them.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)no. that does not work for you. whatever.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Probably referring only to the demographic referenced in the OP... 
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Some people see *some* men "picking fights". Others see *some* men taking exception with gross generalizations and a culture of fear and bullying performed under a feigned divisive guise of "feminism" and defending themselves from insulting sexist prejudice.
In the end the OP just seems like a "I know you are but what am I" playground argument. Isn't this Meta?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"but that in itself depends on a matter of perception..."
That, or (and I find this more likely), someone in the OP's referenced demographic simply looking to be outraged and oppressed.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)If we're going to be dismissive of men taking exception to gross generalizations against their entire gender, its just as easy to dismiss every feminist complaint. In the end, its easy to see why people are talking past eachother here.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)More accurately, it's just as easy for *you* to "dismiss every feminist complaint", as I feel neither oppressed nor persecuted enough to actively observe any oppression and persecution I'd like to pretend exists...
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)And you aren't really contributing much of value in my opinion.
I'm not sure what compelled you to respond to a post I made so long ago with snark as it really was a very honest statement regarding how these issues end up being divisive.
We can't all keep pretending the "other side" is full of shit with righteous indignation, and meanwhile be upset that they do the same exact thing (while pretending they aren't).
My opinion is that 90% of the gender problems on DU have nothing to do with a disagreement on gender issues, but rather ineffective communication styles and team fight mentalities. By all means, if this is working for you, keep going, but I find it to be divisive and a complete waste of energy.
The smoke has cleared (I think). Can't we all start using our brains now?
Happy new year and all that jazz
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)you misread my post entirely. I'm not going to spell out what I mean either because I'll get a hide.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I do think it is a small group that has a particular problem with "women" and a feminists thought appears to be lashed out against. again, it is a small group of seemingly troubled folk
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)DU can be a fucking cesspool at times. Some people here hold stupid fucking grudges for YEARS - stalking, bullying, etc. It's not unique to men vs women. It's the nature of the internet. It's easy to fall into the trap. I've been there.
meh. whaddya gonna do?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"new sport for some poor saps who have no life? "
I'd hazard it's an old sport for poor saps who have to wait ten minutes for their only "dates" to buffer.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)woolldog
(8,791 posts)
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)to try and drive a wedge between some women and liberal men instead.
Not that I am claiming that anyone here is not who they present themselves to be. I would never do that. 
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)I know if I wanted to disrupt FR, I'd be the most extreme rightie on the board, then accuse everyone else of being a leftie commie socialist. I'm guessing I know how they'd disrupt on DU.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And it works well.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)
GoCubsGo
(32,075 posts)It's their usual "divide and conquer" crap. They don't even bother to try to hide it half the time.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)... that would be.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)We have dozens upon dozens of jury verdicts to establish that point.
The DU community is more typical of the Internet than atypical when it comes to tolerance of misogyny.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Like I said in my other post, I've been attacked and harrased by mostly women.
So imo, the OP is wrong.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i will take it on the shoulders. you are right. i disagreed with your assessment mens healthcare was ignored and men should not have to absorb womens health care. i disagreed that women should have to pay more simply for the fact they are women.
tell the issue darkangel. and watch the men that disagree with your position also.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You atatcked me over and over again, I have no use for your BS.
Find someone else to abuse.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and over. you are right.
i will go there.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I really don't care for your abuse.
Its disgusting.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)You want to make allegations and not back them up, and call others abusive with no proof whatsoever.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You forgot all your nasty posts in the thread you mentioned??
I want nothing to do with you, take your hate elsewhere please. I have enough in my life and I don't want to waste energy dealing with your attacks.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Skinner knows about seabeyond's abusive posts.
You want to add to that?
boston bean
(36,219 posts)as for seabeyond, you have provided no proof.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What alegations against you?
boston bean
(36,219 posts)I asked what nasty posts did I make to you. No answer was forthcoming. I told you, you were mistaken.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Sorry.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Good riddance.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And you got your ass handed to you by LOTS of people, many of whom were actually men. I also believe your recollection is flawed.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You think others don't see your hate and your abuse?? Lmao!!!
Enjoy your break.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)But deja vu!!
Another one of the haters from that pile up thread!!
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)1. This is a public message board. If you want a private conversation keep it in PM. Otherwise, people will respond as they want. If you don't want to see posts from other posters use your ignore list.
2. Again, people disagreeing with you does not equal hater.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hence the ass handing. I am shocked your recollection is so poor.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Then commenting on your deeds.
How nice.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you refused to accept that as you continued to misinform.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)*shrug*
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)but don't let others let you down. Keep posting your points of view. I always don't agree with your posts but you shouldn't feel shamed to not post your opinion.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)or is it a one way street?
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)where I said you can't?
That is right you can't find that link can you? 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)would you rather someone assume and attack? me? i prefer to ask first.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)under DU community standards?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Sorry, I edited for clarity.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)been acceptable.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a group of men engaged in loathsome behavior.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)As a proported liberal or progressive, you should have a greater sense of empathy and understanding of the multiple dimensions and complexity of human behavior.
Where have I expressed any anger?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of an argument.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...the tiny cadre of radical feminists that insist that any time any male does anything remotely male it's part of "rape culture" or some such bullshit, and then try and get back up through the alerts system or the jury.
There are many, many things that need to done to improve womens lives around the globe, but acting like the people you say are oppressing you, and claiming EVERYTHING is systematic of the "rape culture" isn't the way to do it..
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Amazingly, the vast majority of men on this site have no problem posting and very, very, very, very few have been accused of promoting rape culture--which is a very real thing, contra your scare quotes.
At least as far as I've noticed, men have not been accused of promoting rape culture for liking football, NASCAR, guns, beer, power tools, scotch whiskey, fishing, or even gawking at 'hot celebrities.' Nor have they been dinged for growing beards, discussing the real world toll that patriarchy takes on men (e.g. workplace fatalities, combat deaths), etc.
As a general rule, people who rant about 'radical feminists' don't much care for any feminists.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...on the ignore list you go..
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,781 posts)You go on the ignore list. 
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I haven't really researched it. I think there are valid points being made across the board. Perhaps I am thinking of something other than what you are. Are you referring to the "ogling/leering" type of threads? Or something else?
Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #14)
boston bean This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It started in GD with a feminist posting a piece about anti-misogyny campaigns in India.
Which was then followed by one of the site's more noted anti-feminists posting something purporting to educate feminists on what feminism actually is, and how they were failing at feminism.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I thought it was pretty important because clearly something in Indian culture has allowed men to be out of control toward women.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)start taking the side of the Indian men in that ad . . .
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)they were saying the behavior and how it is judged is situational. But I haven't read every single reply in bonobo's post.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)included one anti-feminist man telling women that if they didn't want to be ogled they should wear a burka.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)to school the women in how they could stop doing feminism wrong.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)sharing thoughts, its turned into attacks in all directions.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Men educating women on how to do feminism... never gets old.
Raven
(13,877 posts)Mind = blown.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)So I can't answer that.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)Seems a few women here are just laying in wait to misinterpret what I say and twist it to be misogynistic. Which I absolutely am not.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)I was also called a 
AAO
(3,300 posts)male chauvinist!!
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)It doesn't bother me, though. I think it makes for good conversation. 
AAO
(3,300 posts)But I just wish they would ask for clarification before jumping down your throat. I'm done commenting before I start attracting sharks.
Response to AAO (Reply #168)
Post removed
Matariki
(18,775 posts)you are not cute or clever or remotely funny. You are making DU suck.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for clarification. i do it often. i appreciate when people do it with me.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
TeamPooka
(24,209 posts)Buh bye.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)so you can see that it's a two way street.
Oh, wait, I remember your sig line about being a man.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Not even you.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)What is new is the blatant acceptance of it in GD.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)my fan club 
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Look at General Discussion right now. On the first page alone, there are hundreds and hundreds of posts in these gender wars threads.
And its like that every day.
And most of those thread seem to be hectoring men for one sort of perceived misbehavior or another.
I'm going to resolve to try to stay out of them. The ultras can have their little bubble in GD.
I have things other to worry about rather than the distinction between gazing and ogling.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You forgot to use the metaphor of a woman holding a rolling pin, but otherwise spot on.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)don't pretend there aren't.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)with my Y chromosome, fully socialized and identifying as a man.
Being a man is not a defect. Behaving poorly is. Bad behavior can be cured, though.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)and derogatory code words toward women are not in many cases that I've seen.
I'm happy your threshold has not been reached. For others, it has.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Orrex
(63,172 posts)You enjoy the luxury of being able to opt out of generalized, gender-targeted criticism. The famous "male privilege checklist" discusses this, in fact, so it's nice to see a fully actualized male like you taking advantage of his Y chromosome status.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)a post hidden when in jest i called a man a prude. for calling a man a prude.
daily, for years i am called a prude, frigid, anti sex, man hater, emotionally unstable and everything else and nothing,.
so, how about if i do not agree with you that things said to a man is ok, when they are not allowed to be said to a woman.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)If men are continually calling you a prude, that is not good especially if it bothers you. When I was younger, I had high moral standards and was often called a prude. Thankfully, I've relaxed them quite a bit and am not usually tagged with that label. 
I think someone judging you personally on a message board as "frigid" or "anti-sex" just based on some posting is ridiculous.
I think most of us have been called emotionally unstable if we let our emotions show up in our posts which I have done.
I was more saying if someone calls another person a "b**ch" or "w**re (even using the term attention w**re) they get called out universally, but if someone calls a guy a d**k or say he's only thinking with his penis....well, that is somehow more defensible per DU standards.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)anyone knows my behavior. arguing feminists points does not make me a prude. it is used merely to attack my sexuality, like men consistently do with women since that is all of who we are, after all. it is no different than slut shaming women, but the other side.
and ya... i have gotten bitch also. and jury says, leave... cause she is.
so no, i do not go much with that either.
as far as dick, almost always come from men. BUT... i support in not allowing that even though men have argued they do not mind and not bothered. so there is the ironic in holding that up as comparable. almost always men using dick, and almost always men saying they are not offended. as they then use it to compare how comments toward men are allowed.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I've never said I appreciate that term being used--especially in the context of so many being (rightly) offended at other insults directed toward women. I've even seen a post get hidden when someone refers to a guy as b**chy.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)of the men i am referring to.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)And for years I've thought, "man, this just doesn't work for a discussion board, especially for a topic as deeply wired and varied as human sexuality. Skinner/admins should address this now, or it's gonna be a much bigger problem later".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is not my issue. i am allowed to discuss what i hold dear. if you do not agree, you are allowed to have differing views. that simple. i am allowed to disagree with your differing views.
i guess i can say, that in my view, you only want one perspective on the board.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)seems to be the belief that you are the final arbiter of all things male/female.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you can continually say it over and over. validate your position if i say anything about this issue. regardless of how civil i am in presenting my position. because you see me in that way, does not make it correct. i feel it is a dishonest way discussing an issue.
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)Isn't that odd?
treestar
(82,383 posts)How your DNA means you cannot behave any better. Yet we see that men can do a lot better, so I don't know if there is something wrong with their DNA or if it really is true that men can control their behavior.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Meanwhile, I'll be reading (and perhaps commenting on) posts that have to do with the economy, foreign policy, criminal justice, and other issues that are of greater interest to me than the distinction between gazing and ogling.
Too bad if Seabeyond is being hassled. The jury system is a train wreck, and I have no idea what to do about it.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)feminism?
That seems like a good use of time. I just wish everyone would follow your lead.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)at his word. kinda thought his post a chuckle.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"he has consistently directed women how we should behave. so, i hardly take him at his word. kinda thought his post a chuckle."
I'll ask again: What the hell are you talking about?
You know, Seabeyond, maybe there's a reason you're getting alerted on a lot. I'm not alerting on you, but I don't appreciate your outright lies. I wouldn't dare direct you as to how you should behave, but I would suggest that you delete your piece of shit post.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)The comments on this and other threads are simply unbelievable. Oooof.
Keep up the good work calling out this vile nonsense, geek tragedy, but I don't hold out much hope for teaching these imbeciles anything.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Men--liberal men mind you that post on DemocraticUnderground--are starting to call bullshit more often and getting attacked in droves (which is perceived as starting fights). Most of this crap is so ridiculous its getting to the point that it doesn't deserve serious replies.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)Good times.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)days.
Perhaps that will change come the 2014 election year but I have my doubts.
The nattering ninnies contingent seems to have a pretty good foothold around here, indeed.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)And, perhaps, politicians should keep their nose out of racial equality as well?
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)It is like attack mode constantly. All of it humorless. I try to talk honestly, for the most part, here, and that blows up in my face almost every time.
The women get to talk openly about men's faults in toto, yet I have never ever said what I think about the women in my age group, because it would be very hurtful, not to mention the shit storm that would ensue. But here on DU men are perceived as porn watching, chick ogling. misogynists......(okay we are, but it is not the evil that you think it is)
The women here on DU have made it very hard to come here in that you might offend women for some perceived slight or another even if you did not have that intention....
Also made it very hard to date as well. Am I supposed to be attracted to someone without looking at them in THAT way? Being a gentleman is sexual intimidation?
What if I like lingerie (A Christmas gift NO NO according to DU) and spiked heels (Shoes......) and sexualizing my partner? Maybe spicing up our lives with porn? What if my partner likes porn too??????
What if sexualizing women leads to sex with women? I know in my marriage, the second we stopped porn in our sexlife , our sexlife took a nosedive. The more enlightened I became towards women, the less I saw my wife THAT way.(there were myriad other reasons for that as well).
Is there anything that you all like about men?
(this ought to be good)
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)there are larger problems in this world that must be resolved. If some want to spend their time discussing the rules for opening a door for another person so be it.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Did you really just use that word?
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Because women speaking up about the things that affect them are 'blustering' and 'domineering'. Or I suppose you could say they are shrews, harpies, harridans, biddies, scolds, termagants, battle axes, hussies, or, oh yeah, bitches.
That's all this is. Women being so, so mean to poor poor men.
It's like trying to explain what wet is to fish. YOU might have 'better things to worry about' than the definition of oogling - but I guarantee you if you spent years of your life, from your adolescence on, having to deal with the shit women have to deal with on a daily basis you would see it differently.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)One poster in particular is the ringleader in that circus.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)A small handful are currently engaging in a concerted effort to get seabeyond and maybe one or two other feminists kicked off altogether. Once that's accomplished, the place can become just a big old groovy man's playground.
I really wish the administrators would take a look at who is alerting on sea's posts, and perhaps take some action against them once they see the obvious pattern.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)I've been trying to get Giants fans kicked off the board.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)If seabeyond's posts are constantly being alerted on, then perhaps that in itself is an obvious pattern.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)that she is female and having reviewed Seabeyond's transparency page would have alerted on almost all of them.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)...is a bunch of abusive and OTT posts that if I'd seen them would have alerted, and I definitely would have voted to hide if I were on a jury. Those posts weren't hidden because she's a feminist or because of her gender. They were hidden because she's telling other DUers to fuck off and being nasty.
People who are imo mollycoddling her and telling her it's not her fault, but the fault of the alerters aren't doing her any favours at all. If I had that many hidden posts I'd be copping it on the chin and taking full responsibility and learning from it and modifying my behaviour, and I hope that's what seabeyond does. It's very possible to be a feminist, a female, and talk about issues regarding both without scoring hidden posts. And while some juries tend to give a pass to bigotry (I've seen it happen over the past 24hrs when it comes to Jews and Muslims), one thing that can pretty much guarantee a post will be hidden is to tell other DUers to fuck off. It's also clear from reading this thread and others that there's more than a few people reading her posts the way I have and seeing the broadbrush generalisations made against men. She claims she isn't doing that when she says things like 'you men' or posts that men behave in a particular way, so what she needs to do is take what's being said on board and ensure that if she's not talking about all men, she makes that clear. That would probably cut the alerts down by a lot just doing that alone...
for the record, I'm saying this as a woman, a feminist, and one of the co-founders of HoF, and I hope seabeyond takes this criticism in the spirit it's intended and doesn't go down the blaming everyone else for her hidden posts route...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)please do not misrepresent what i posted. one person
yes, i had vulgar posts. i was taking about a vulgar subject. how do you talk about grown men doing school girls without being vulgar? i did not bring it up. i did not tell people we must accept it.
one post i thought i was told ot screw off. i said screw off = fuck off. how is that against the rule
another post i spoke about how few posts yet coming in to insult the OP. you know. insensitive to a fellow duer.
another post... vulgar? ya. in a thread asking what violence in porn would be. again. i didnt start the subject
you want me to not take offense? then i expect a little balance. a little perspective.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)That's the sort of thing I was talking about. I can see that yr not interested in taking responsibility for yr own behaviour, but in blaming others for it. What you should be doing is focusing on what you can control, which is what you say, not justifying abusive posts by insisting that someone else started it.
I don't give a shit about vulgarity. What I said was that yr posts were abusive and that every single one deserved to be hidden. I stand by that, and again I'll repeat the suggestion that you try and take some responsibility and learn to discuss issues without abusing people..
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)let me show you why. i pretty much do not read polly's post. they start with attacks and end as such. i do let her know. i glanced at her post and saw screw off. i thought she was telling me to screw off. i was wrong. BUT... i thought she was telling me to screw off. the first reply addressing her is this.
hey molly... i dont think you are allowed to say fuck you, and basically screw off (as much as you tried to switch it around) is the same thing. you might want to consider that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4079871
clearly i am not telling her to fuck off. clearly i think she is telling me to screw off. i am telling her, saying screw off is the same as fuck off. right?
and then i repeated it here. screw off = fuck off.
not fuck you.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Attacks? I asked you to stop with the condescending, sexist remarks and hugsy, kissy shit. Instead, you ramped it up and twisted what I said about being no better than a man you've asked to stop, who continues, with your final zinger - "screw off = 'fuck you, darlin".
Just as you called another woman a hypocrite for objecting to you doing the same to her, calling her 'dear'. Blows my mind, the shit you get away with.
But each time, you manage to turn it 180 degrees into somebody being mean to poor you. 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)everytime at what point i stopped reading your post and why
polly7
(20,582 posts)chose to continue it.
Strange how everyone but you insults and 'attacks'. I respond how I'm posted to.
Speaking of attacks ..... maybe you should remember what you did here to a certain poster. If that doesn't qualify as an attack (one that should have got you ppr'd) I honest to god don't know what is.
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)Thanks for calling this 'feminist' on it. I am so sick of the divisiveness that gender opportunists are doing to this board. If they really wanted to attack gender problems, they'd be posting at FreeRepublic...except. they'd have no forum to do it. Instead, they attack DU because we believe women have the same opportunities as men. But, wait, that's a problem...so, eye-rape!
Marr
(20,317 posts)and I remember them as you describe them. The aggression and boorish behavior came entirely from one side, in my humble opinion, and it wasn't yours.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)At the time, she PMed me and informed me that they were talking about her in those Meta threads, and that she was concerned about being PPRed.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)been TOS'd. You were not.
polly7
(20,582 posts)That one floored me. How she continued to insist it was you who was in the wrong for not wanting to be labeled with a sexist term. Then she did it to me, over and over after I told her to stop with the first one. I could feel the joy she was getting from doing it, too. I've never understood people who believe they have the absolute right to bully and treat others like shit because they dare to offer an opinion, but there ya go .... for some, it's entertainment.
Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #130)
boston bean This message was self-deleted by its author.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Reading the posts in context indicate involvement in pretty contentious exchanges ... exchanges where I would have hidden both participants or neither. I wonder if the others were alerted on? How did juries vote? In some of these exchanges one has to wonder why her's was the post that was hidden? Of there are the FU posts ... which are probably not a good idea, by anyone
RainDog
(28,784 posts)The problem is not with feminism. The problem is with a few self-appointed spokespersons here who do not, in fact, speak for women. They speak for a subset here, maybe, but not all women. They definitely do not speak for all feminists.
Seabeyond has regularly attacked people on this site, at least from my first knowledge of her. It's not because she calls herself a feminist - which could be questioned based upon her posting history, in fact.
When meta existed, I created a post that referred back to so many of the insults, just to show the pattern. Link after link.
She used to call women sluts who behaved in ways that are not approved by the patriarchy and defended it.
I guess she's evolved since then...
She locks threads that have passed the muster of juries because she doesn't like them, then leaves so that the post cannot be unlocked because of her fiat decision.
She posts links from right wing religious nutters and those who love them, and pretends that's feminism, but it isn't.
Junk "social science" in support of a position is just junk science, not feminism.
Feminism doesn't embrace religious right wing thinking. If someone's feminism is an expression of approved patriarchal views of females, this is not feminism - it's reactionary thinking against modernism and in support of religious proscriptions for females.
But many women and men who claim they are feminists here do exactly that. If you look at the ones who are involved in most of these fights, they all embrace right wing religious povs on issue after issue, whether they recognize this or not. Sometimes I think they are posting more in support of traditional religion than feminism.
The whole "when women are in power things will be totally different" is just another form of sexism, but some here think they're really avant garde to post this same sort of crap thinking over and over. It's actually a very conservative pov based upon perceived differences based upon gender that has nothing to do with reality, unless someone buys into crap like Venus and Mars gender segregation.
Many of the same attack a group like FEMEN who claim to speak for feminism. Other females don't think either of them have the sole claim to such a title, but traditional religion has never spoken for feminism and those who align with it seem to be among those who are so often part of these arguments.
RQ accused me and other women of supporting a pedophile because we questioned RQ's source for a claim. Her supporters were right there with her, even tho Jennifer Granholm didn't agree with RQ and an anonymous blogger's opinion about the person in question - but that didn't matter.
1st amendment protections are attacked by some here who call themselves feminist. Other females don't think they speak for feminism because 1st amendment protections make feminist speech possible in the first place.
TA pretends to feminism and posts personal insults and attacks toward women because of what they find funny. But this isn't new. She did the same thing in the lounge for years and feminism had nothing to do with that mode of action here. To pretend this is about feminism is a joke.
Sea and RQ aligned with a duckie person who was banned here for stirring up shit and attacking people all the time. This person argued that trans women did not qualify to be called women or feminist. They created online groups to insult DU and the admins. Of course, they're not the only ones who have done this here, but afaik, they're the only ones who have done it because they are "more feminist than thou." That's how the HoF group came into being - because of some women who did not want to be inclusive. They got their own protected forum.
Feminism itself is not under attack in most all of these discussions.
When people were so relieved when the duckie person (I've forgotten her DU name - I had her on ignore long before she was banned) was gone, it wasn't because she was a feminist or not - it was because she was annoying and rude. She was a disruptor. Both men and women were happy she was gone. SB was her acolyte, by SB's own admission that she had learned so much from that person. Maybe that's when SB stopped calling women sluts. So, maybe there's some good in everything...
What and who is under attack are those who attack others here, often. This is a feud between people, not ideologies. Both sides are arguing longtime feuds.
It's a joke to pretend this regularly recurring outburst from both sides of a feud are arguing about feminism - they're arguing about the ways in which positions are regularly distorted in order to fit into a preconceived view of another person, not issue.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)rather than discuss ideas or issues. It's astounding how threatened people are by someone who disagrees with them, so much so that they invent a whole string of bullshit to invalidate the person entirely rather than engaging in any discussion of ideas with that person.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)the digging through the mental health group for information on "enemies", and the PM distribution of that info to try to destroy good people. That incident was pretty disgusting.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)happen that way
you and others really have a knack for adjusting your stories to what ever ugly you want it to be. and you talk about hof? you are not seeing any of us going around playing up creative stories. we address the issue. but your little gang cannot seem to get past personal vilification. and neither of you two can even come close to honesty. do bring up shit from two years ago pinto. the garbage was flying then. you think you are going to be any closer to any truth now? why would we expect any kind of integrity in whatever anger sit you off now.
do tell all how i called your daughter the s word
you know
the last totally exaggerated accusation you made about me in dishonesty
what did i do pinto? what? i quietly pm'ed you asking you to clue me in instead of going at you publically
ya
tell me about disgusting
pintobean
(18,101 posts)flash the tits... daughter, feel empowered. daddy is there to hoot and holler.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8200387
This, because she was going to show some cleavage during "Boobquake". What kind of person says something like that to a man about him and his daughter?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this is exactly what i am talking about bringing two years ago to attack me. this garbage then, this garbage now.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 02:27 PM by seabeyond
on the absurdity of a female approaching it in an intellectual way? when the only suggestion from that male is strip down, so they can hoot and holler, act like a bunch of ..... ?
virgin or whore for males. one or the other.
the issue with iran clerics are not womens boobs. it is men. the issue with your post is not womens boobs, but you.
the issue women have to deal with is resorting to using sexuality as their only commodity in being heard.
Response to Reply #22
23. That was a lecture? Ok, whatever.
I learned of this 'event' from my 20 year old daughter. I'm taking the same tongue in cheek approach to this as she is. You can see it however you want. Approach it with all the hang-ups and stereotypes you desire. Wear a burka in counter-protest. That would amuse me just as much as boobquake. After all, I keep hearing that whatever a woman does with her own body is her own damn business.
Response to Reply #23
24. once again, addressing what i say with a "whatever". dismissing. yes, that is exactly what it is
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 04:39 PM by seabeyond
further, burka? hang ups?... just right there with the other guys that dismiss the female, point the finger to ridicule or shame.
ask your daughter why she feels the answer to blaming women for mens behavior is flashing her tits. listen to her. explore the subject. look at it from different angles. see if maybe you might actually gain some insight. if your daughter may actually have a revelation. or
flash the tits... daughter, feel empowered. daddy is there to hoot and holler.
why would i DARE say that to a father? really? maybe cause the father said that is what he was going to do
pintobean
(18,101 posts)so the reader could read through the thread for context.
Where did I say my daughter was going to flash her tits and that I was going to hoot and holler about it?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you brought in your daughter
your daughter wants to flash
you want to be entertained by other mens DAUGHTER flashing. other men being entertained by YOUR daughter flashing.
but wow, put you and daughter in same sentence of flashing and entertained and i have done something wrong.
why would you be bothered? doesnt that make you the one with issues?
i am talking about addressing womens issues intellectually and with our voice and mind. you are cheering addressing flashing boob and thnumbs up to daughter doing it
yet.... you call me out when i state daughter flashing, you being entertained.
if it is ok, it is ok. or what does that make you?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)who talked about flashing. The thread was about showing cleavage. The fact that I said that I had learned of the event from my daughter did not make it open season on her character.
Here is a pic of the boobquake organizer on the day of the event. My daughter was dressed more modestly than this on that day.
Is this flashing in your mind?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the discussion. seeing how you had NO objection with me equating boobquake with flashing, 3-4 yrs ago, or now.... since boobquake was about flashing. when you could not address the hypocrisy i point out, it is now about the word flashing.
done
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Right there in the OP. That's not flashing.
After your outrageous assault on my daughter, I replied with a very reserved comment and got the fuck out of that thread, before I could get myself into trouble.
ETA - As to how long ago it was, you brought it up.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)when translated from English to Portuguese, from Portuguese to Chinese, from Chinese to German, from German to Icelandic, and from Icelandic back to English:
the risk of
You and others who really put talent, ugly story her anything you want. Hoff and talk to you? You do not need any of us see there playing and creative story. Solve this problem. But little his gang can not pass personal slander. And no, you can even come close to be honest. Two years ago, I have not painted dog feces. Waste fly. Do you think it would be something closer to the truth, right? Why now we want to find you, what kind of integrity in all the rage.
How can I say all, her daughter called words
Did you know
You're making me totally unfair exaggeration latest allegations
How to paint? What? I pm'ed you asked him calmly introduce myself, and not want you to open
when
Tell me sick
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)At this point, the application, such as monitoring the bottom line is important.
xulamaude
(847 posts)play the "Word Salad" game than it took for sea to say what she meant.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)RainDog
(28,784 posts)When this gets pointed out, the claim is that someone's words were twisted. I asked both parties about the situation just to say... what happened, from your understanding, with no ill will. But maybe too much has happened for that to ever happen.
If I were wealthy, I would've sued RQ for libel when she made the claim about supporting pedophiles. Even if I couldn't win such a case I would've sued in order to make a point about such personal attacks. That's the only time, ever, in all the years I have been here, that I contacted the admins that I can remember.
The personal rancor has come about because of the over-the-top vicious attacks.
I have suggested that others who find such ways of being here too much should just ignore those who do them. I have, so I'm sure I no longer see the majority of threads with these sorts of personal feuds here.
But, overall, I don't think they have much to do with feminism.
Those who pretend to claim the mantle of feminist here might benefit from some basic instruction about persuasive rhetoric - how to do it. That has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with constructing sound arguments that acknowledge real disagreements on issues, rather than personal arguments. Keep the argument about an issue, rather than personalities.
Both sides, however, seem to use these arguments to form social cohesion for one group or another (I don't participate in any of them) - so that seems to be a more important function for these arguments than issues themselves.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)What claim about supporting pedophiles?
You're the second person here to wave the "libel" threat at me. Stepping up the efforts lately I see.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)If someone has had more than one person suggest that a person's attacks on others here are libelous, that person might want to rethink the way she acts on this forum, rather than pretend others are conspiring.
However, here you see, once again, the same cluelessness and attempt to turn this into some plan against her when others tell RQ that her actions are beyond the pale toward others on a democratic discussion board.
the only people I ever discussed the issue of libel with were the admins, at the time that happened, and today when shared here.
In order to pretend she is not engaging in hateful, disgusting, repulsive attacks against democrats, she pretends others are conspiring. Her own actions are the problem.
Response to RainDog (Reply #393)
redqueen This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Evidently that's what you do instead of engaging with her about ideas. You have no right to use DU to pursue your personal vendettas. The irony is that you are accusing someone else of making personal insults, while your post is attacking someone not even involved in the discussion. I have never seen Seabeyond make anything close to the kinds of insults you make against her in this and other posts. You might consider reflecting a bit on your own behavior before so eagerly pointing the finger at others.
beevul
(12,194 posts)You are in no position to lecture anyone about behavior or civility.
Physician, heal thy self:
"You might consider reflecting a bit on your own behavior before so eagerly pointing the finger at others."
Do I really need to pull up bookmarked threads where you posted venomous insulting diatribes directed at others simply because they disagree with you on one issue?
Think about it.
Really hard.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts) Orrex
(63,172 posts)Reviewing them, I can't see how a reasonable reader would identify a conspiracy to silence her.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)one of her posts, and it was not hidden. If you see which posts are being referenced, it's pretty clear. They are trying to hit any and every post and hoping it sticks.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Still, hard to say without seeing the actual posts. Do you have any examples of this daily occurrence?
Her posting style tends to be rather more in-your-face than people might appreciate, so perhaps they're responding to the overall arc of her style, rather than to this or that particular post. That doesn't necessarily imply an antifeminist agenda on the part of the alerters, either. They might simply not like her style regardless of tlher content.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)rights? Aren't we SUPPOSED to fight like hell for them?
We should have a whole room of fainting couches for men who have keeled over from postings made by Seabeyond. It is clear some of them have pretty weak knees, some shortness of breath and a general sense of malaise. Terrible thing, old chap.
trumad
(41,692 posts)I can imagine some keyboard warrior dude huffing and puffing while reading her replies.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I do love it so!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Orrex
(63,172 posts)And if I'm not talking about impassioned posts arguing against misogyny. If those posts are alerted-on for content, then obviously that's a problem. And that's not what I'm describing.
I'm referring instead to her aggressively personal attacks on both men and women,anyone who doesn't accept her specific and very narrow interpretation of the world. This happens again and again and has happened quite a few times in recent days, in fact, and in each case she insists that she's not attacking anyone and that she's the persecuted victim.
I've previously stated this in replies to her, so I don't mind reiterating it here.
Her hypocritical double standard might sit poorly with people regardless of the subject being debated.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)so don't feel bad if she yells at you for saying something she feels is misogynistic. She has a point of view. Don't we all?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I don't feel bad when she yells at me because she's simply not that important. I also don't think that her aggressive personal attacks should get a pass just because she hates misogyny.
She does indeed have a point of view, and she's welcome to it. And the people who alert on her posts or vote to hide them are welcome to their points of view as well.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)"women should raise more hell and fewer dahlias."
My sentiments entirely.
Making the Establishment more uncomfortable should be one of YOUR goals too, buddy...why isn't it?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)You want this to be about me working to make the Establishment more comfortable, but that's a baseless accusation.
Instead, I'm asking why seabeyond should get a pass for personal attacks that have nothing to do with overthrowing the patriarchy.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you called me out in a number of posts that i personally attack. i want to see it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)told anyone else to fuck off. period. end of story. i do not personally attack. i do not name call. show me one.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)copy the pms to them. Let 'em look at them.
This stuff shouldn't happen to ANY Duers...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)told him to fuck off and would take my first hide.
i didnt know the other women got a pm also.
skinner then tos'ed him
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)You are still here I see! Hey!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in pm telling him why people were bothered. we would chat. i was nice. then he would throw out more misogyny. i am a sucker that way. seeing the good. always there is good. then he stepped over my line.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)do this. Provide them with hard proof. If it is loud and clear they cannot refute you.
On reflection, this one sounds really troubled. I think it is best to stay away from them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I hope they know that....
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)It's clear as day
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 28, 2013, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)
This isn't the junior high cafeteria. I find it ironic that people are using this thread to talk about another poster's behavior, while engaging in mean-spirited gossip themselves.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)They were responding to what was said in that post, and I didn't think they were being gossipy with what they said...
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Yeah, right.
kcr
(15,315 posts)It's okay. Gun rights advocates - oops, I mean the community- insist they don't want all that gun talk littering the boards when they alert. But they're fine with all the crap generated by all the "gender wars". No point in complaining about it.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and there is no collective effort to single out anyone (doing so is against DU rules btw).
Sometimes you have to accept the truth at face value. True justice has no bounds.
politichew
(230 posts)Just ask my cat. He's recovering from his snip-snip.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)I assume you mean emasculate you?
That's what you take away from all of this? It's extremely sexist way to think, imho.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)And by "they", I don't mean ALL women on DU. Let's just be clear about that!
boston bean
(36,219 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)So I'd rather not respond and hide safely behind the fallacy once the grenade has been tossed
boston bean
(36,219 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)as many threads show. But I am inclined to agree.
K.O. Stradivarius
(115 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Or maybe the want to practice some skills
MRA Debating Tactics (Humorous, But All Too True)
(Note: they all start as, “MRA debating: …”, which I’m simply leaving out for the sake of avoiding repetition. Also, I’ve extended and embellished some of them beyond the original character length to be more precise in what I mean.)
1. Mock feminists until they’re angry, then say, “See? I told you feminists are all just angry bitches pissed off at men.” Self-fulfilling prophecies are always a good tactic.
2. Be polite, at least until your friends show up, then attack en masse to overwhelm. And don’t actually win the debate, just fight. Intellectualism is so tedious, after all, and some anti-MRM people are really quite good at it.
3. Ask for research and evidence, then dismiss it all arbitrarily with no explanation when given and say that feminists have no evidence. It doesn’t matter that feminists actually do have entire fields of research to back them up, or statistics, or experts, and that you don’t have any. If you won’t admit her evidence, it doesn’t have to matter!
4. Define patriarchy as “rule of fathers”, and then show how fathers don’t rule so you can say patriarchy isn’t real, completely avoiding any actual discussion of patriarchy as an anthropological and sociological phenomenon. Indeed, it’s best to avoid actual science and research altogether, that shit is hard to understand.
5. Wrongly accuse feminists of committing logical fallacies even when it’s apparent that you don’t have a firm grasp on propositional logic. Hope everyone won’t notice, and hope everyone assumes that logical fallacies assert the falsehood of a statement. They don’t, but if no one notices, you’re good!
6. You don’t need intellectual integrity. If one of your buddies is clearly losing a debate with a feminist, jump in and back up his arguments no matter how stupid or ineffectual they are. The more the merrier!
Etcetera, etcetera.
http://eseld.tumblr.com/post/54266865213/mra-debating-tactics-humorous-but-all-too-true
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts) kcr
(15,315 posts)Look the feminists so angry and hating men! They're the problem on DU! Totally ignoring the mocking and trolling of feminists that goes on that leads to these "gender wars"
Kingofalldems
(38,425 posts)Somebody alerted.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Snarf.
Kingofalldems
(38,425 posts)Don't know how to post results though.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Would love to know the alert verbiage and the jury result.
I can guarantee the alert started out with something like--- "same old trumad".
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)they're trying to get the hosts to lock it.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I'm back on the boards, in case you want to discuss host forum matters more privately.
I hope you know I love you like a brother!
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)making sure alerts to lock gun threads were followed up on if the regular GD hosts didn't already.
and when i pointed out that you were actively working via alerts previously and then by posting alerts in the host group to shut down gun topics here in GD, you started posting alerts from other types of threads.
the main effect of your posting alert threads (which you can't lock) is to increase the chances that a thread will be locked in GD.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)What ever shall I do?
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)you should take it to admin. I am sure they will listen to you if you present them with evidence that supports your hypothesis.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)My complaint is with SKP who isn't even a GD Host.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Just making an obvious observation.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts) tammywammy
(26,582 posts)ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
If one gender does not take the other's bait, nothing happens.
OP hooked a gangload!
CC
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Same players, over and over.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)
demmiblue
(36,823 posts)I do thank them for ridding DU of quite a few notables, but it is simply not enough (imho). Some of the stuff that is posted here sounds like it comes directly from far rightwing sites. It is a shame.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)People clash here and then become obsessed with one another, bullying and poking and prodding. It's gross. And it's why I take repeated long breaks.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Just off the top of my head there is:
1. The Arguments over the differences in 2nd wave and 3rd wave feminism. (i.e. porn/prostitution)
2. The attempts to get rape better prosecuted in which 2nd and 3rd wavers agree and support each other and seem opposed by a small group of men who take everything personally.
3. Now this attempt to get street harassment and staring addressed which again unites the different waves of feminism on one side opposed by a small group of men who take everything personally.
There are probably more facets than this that escape me at the moment. In each of the three there are a ton of obvious flamebait OPs posted by both sides, yours being one of them.
Iggo
(47,535 posts)Usually when this happens, I spend an ordinate amount of time hiding the Boys vs Girls threads, as I believe they tend to make DU suck.
This time it's just too entertaining.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Our holiday gift to each other.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)six of one half a dozen of the other.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)because it is "Democratic" Underground, and contrary to popular belief that term in NO way means liberal, feminist, environmentalist, civil rights activist, anti-war, etc.
It means whatever the majority decides:
1) Torture? - OK as long as our guy says so.
2) Domestic spying? - OK as long as our guy says so.
3) Enabling Wall Street robber barons? - OK as long as our guy says so.
4) Murder people with drones? - OK as long as our guy says so.
5) Turn Afghanistan into the longest war in American history so we can keep pouring money into defense contractors? - OK as long as our guy says so.
6) Gut the safety net? - OK as long as our guy says so.
7) Drill for oil offshore regardless of damage? - OK as long as our guy says so.
8) Corporate prisons running hell holes for profit? - OK as long as our guy says so.
I could go on, but I don't want to unduly burden the apologists when they come in with their pointless, fact/context free, point-by-point rebuttal.
In the meantime, let me anticipate our critics and say we should both just shut the fuck up and clap louder goddamnit. That and go somewhere else if we are going to insist purist shit like morality, ethics, reality and pointing out hypocrisy.
Geez, I am really in a foul mood today.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)
Warpy
(111,164 posts)Push all the present buying and wrapping off on the wife, check.
Push all the dinner arrangements off on the wife, check.
Push all the cleanup off on the wife, check.
Pick fights with women they don't know, check.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)That really sparked a war not just with men here who love their porn, but the left-wing libertarians of DU who saw it as government encroachment in their bedrooms, as well as sex-positive feminists who think the anti-sex feminists are just as controlling as the patriarchy itself.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)who is not a feminist. Some were outraged that the feminists didn't support overturning the British government because some guys luvs them some rape porn.
But we get the point. Women have the nerve to question male privilege and that simply will not do. Some are going to show us to keep our mouths shut and understand that we aren't equal human beings with a right to speak in public.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #109)
Post removed
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's quite a useful one too, as it allows you to piss on not only women, but racial minorities and the GLBT community as being a bunch of whiners and losers.
For your education, yes men are privileged compared to women, whites are privileged compared to blacks, and heterosexuals are privilieged towards everyone else.
I suggest you read, well, any fucking book ever written about race and gender in the United States.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for kicks and giggle to stir shit and man blames woman.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)that DU seems perfectly happy to allow.
I love this place, I really do. I get frustrated with the casual sexism that sometimes gets tossed about here and allowed to stand though.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and it still has its last vestiges in the Progressive moment. I have always argued for feminism to become popular again in the public sphere it has to be more inclusive with their message. What you are observing is that even in the progressive sphere the exclusionary message is starting to rub even other progressive the wrong way.
Basically the largest voting block in the U.S. are career driven females now, so the rhetoric of patriarchy and oppressions doesn't resonate with this demographic no more, hence why repulsive anti-abortion laws are being passed throughout the country with little resistance. It is up to the new dominant voter demographic (women) to put a stop to this.
Most males no longer have power in this country and only the apex males of society or the oligarchy of men cling to the last vestiges of such power. However when all men are lumped with the apex males of society then there is major resentment. The struggle is shared and a common one which is why MLK jr dream was so profound and so powerful as it was inclusive. Arguing over how to hold a door is pointless. I look around and I see people losing jobs and their homes. The struggle is the 1% vs 99% not if oogling or gazing are defined a certain way.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)It is bullying behavior.
You are making an argument that feminists don't make. You want to make it the argument, but it isn't. This same sort of argument was raised against women who fought for the right to vote. It was raised against women fighting for equal pay and for changes in the rape laws. And the list goes on.
You are trying to make the specious argument that feminists are out of touch with most women and worse, you are blaming feminists for the repulsive rape laws of late! That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard! And, it is insulting to women. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!
Do you think we are not onto your game here? Really, you are not very smart if you think that way.
Listen up: Feminism is Progressivism and Progressivism is Feminism. Remember that.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)It's been stuck in the 1970s. And it has been divided in numerous different ways. So it's become very, very difficult lately to gain any real accomplishments on gender issues that really shouldnt be all that controversial to get passed.
I mean we had a thread on here a few weeks ago that criticized men that didnt help women get strollers up the stairs or didnt offer women seats on a bus. If that is still where we are as a society, then maybe we are not ready to tackle issues like equal pay.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That wasn't really that hard. All I had to do was listen to a feminist once.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)yourself that there aren't any. And you would be totally wrong about that.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Like the other poster said, young women today don't see the discrimination that was present in the past. They got educated and they are getting paid just about as much as men. A recent survey showed when you look just at the youth, women are making 93% of what a man makes. There is still progress to be made there, for sure. But that 78% number that feminist organizations keep screaming about will be inaccurate in about a decade as the last of the baby-boomers leave the workforce....a generation where sex-based discrimination was very high. The millennials are nowhere near as gender-biased.
The whole idea of a "patriarchy" is starting to fall on deaf ears. Where is this patriarchy anymore anyway? You think men are saving up tens of thousands of dollars (or more) to send their daughters to college just so she can meet a man and have a baby in 10 years and sit at home? You think a man doesn't want their wife to succeed and make more money? That's crazy!
Yes, you are correct...there are far more men in charge of Fortune 500 companies. There are far more men in congress and other institutions of power. But most of these jobs are being occupied by the previous generations. These folks will one day have to be replaced. As they are replaced, many will be replaced with women.
Most people feel no need to go out and scream feminism and storm the capitol building with torches and pitchforks because most feel the laws don't need radical reform. It's illegal to discriminate based on gender. It's illegal to rape a woman. There are legal protections for domestic violence and rape victims of both genders. The Supreme Court says abortion is legal. What other law needs to be passed?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)educate you. Suffice to say, it ain't all as rosy as you make it out to be, and yes feminism is needed now more than ever.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)does my heart proud. smart, articulate, going ot college, gonna be the movers and shakers. watch out world.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If you think the patriarchy is all but dead, then you don't know the first thing about it.
Two teenagers in Steubenville raped a young woman over and over again and an entire town conspired to cover it up and shame the victim into submission. That's the goddamn fucking patriarchy.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)good lord, it must be pleasant spewing off in blissful ignorance.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and what I see is that women are dominating the workforce in college educated jobs that are 30 years old and younger. More men are going back to the trades or not working at all with the under 30 crowd. I am deeply worried that men younger then me (I am 30) do not have the drive to work or some type of work ethic to be a contributor to society in some fashion.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Many men just can't adapt to the service industries that women are generally better at.
Plus why work when mama is bringing home the bacon?
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)Didn't anyone tell you, david? That stuff is OVER. You are DONE.
Geez, I thought I was old. This is BEYOND old...
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and the largest voting block in this country are women. Only women (with their votes) can make the changes they want now but if you tune out the majority of women then the Feminist movement will be disregarded. Right now most women consider themselves feminists and yet when they are asked if they are part of the feminist movement they distance themselves.
Feminism is not popular in this country and neither are scientists. The reasons are similar and it has to do with the condescending attitude of knowing what is best for the general populace. Instead the message must be about informing and then letting people choose what they do.
Should I shame my neighbor into submission about the toxicity of lead? Should I tell him that he is dumb and that it has bee known since ancient times that lead is toxic? Or should I explain his disbelief in a rational manner without talking down to him?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)yes, indeed. and our fourth wave is loud, strong and aggressively smart.
learn your history.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)but its popularity has waned the last few years.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)example of that
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)It is the year 2013.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)And we've been together 51 years, so I doubt if things will change much.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I have recently decided that we must STOP with the nitpicking! I constantly ask him "Is this such a big deal?" and I ask that of myself. I've heard stories of old married couples in assisted living who yell at each other all day. It's kinda crazy, isn't it?
tularetom
(23,664 posts)We're both 72 and fairly active and we both have hobbies that give each of us some "me" time.
I love this lady very much but there is definitely such a thing as too much togetherness.
Fortunately we have 40 acres here and I have a shop where I can get away.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I travel. I go off on art trips of about 10 days in length and that is a pretty good remedy. He can't really do the museums, cathedrals, etc that I do and that's fine. I go off and look at art and wonder...he stays and does his thing. It works itself out.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)We're working on it. With her it's tracing her roots, with me it's restoring old automobiles and tractors.
We both take a couple of trips each year in pursuit of our hobbies. When she's gone I miss her and I'm thrilled when she returns although I'm more or less self sufficient. Although my daughter and one granddaughter believe I'm incapable of preparing my own meals.
When I'm gone I assume she takes advantage of my absence to relax a bit.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)My husband does love art, but he can't stand on the stone floors in old cathedrals looking at the art the way I can. I need my retreats into ecstasy. He loves sports and connecting with friends at a bar for a couple of beers on Friday afternoons. We both have our volunteer activities: him with the homeless in our city and me with Literacy Volunteers. It works out.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)[URL=
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Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)Right?
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)the place has changed over the years and not all that much for the better.
but i`ll stick around because there ain`t really anywhere else to go...
cer7711
(502 posts):::sigh:::
Intelligent, kind, decent people--of either gender--know how to act kindly, intelligently and decently with people of either gender. Would that their number would increase!
My two cents? Assholes and bitches abound in both genders, believe you me.
As a humanist and one who believes in the power of great art to kindle empathy in the breast of the viewer/reader/listener, I find it sad and troubling that the genders so rarely talk constructively and honestly with each other on divisive issues anymore.
you're being too reasonable!
trumad
(41,692 posts)cer7711
(502 posts). . . I would say. And did just say.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)CFLDem
(2,083 posts)let's see if the lioness catches her prey...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)oh noes... you are the one that wants to blame the woman for the mans action.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Note how the original poster identified derogatory names for both sexes.
Yet that fair handed post was seabeyonded to only focus on one term.
Like f-ing clockwork...
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)of course we have an agenda. from the very definition of the title. you think that is offensive?
of course you will not challenge a sexist term. and of course i will
each and every time
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)almost exclusively used towards men.
It is often used by scorned females to assert dominance over males by trying to shame expressions of masculine confidence. 
I hope that was enlightening, but you'll probably keep on ticking along.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)universally agreed upon. and has already been state up thread.
now, you can act all condescending that i am the one going on and on. yet, you are the one starting and continuing this conversation. you are the one bring me up elsewhere on threads. like i give a shit what you haev to say. and you are the one following me along replying to my posts. you seem to have gotten a little obsessed with me since being seabeyonded
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)CFLDem
(2,083 posts)That's wonderful. 👍
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and i am not even good at all figuring this shit out.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Incredibly wrong, but still interesting.
I wouldn't take up being a psychic full time, IMO.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I think intelligent, kind and decent people could agree on that. Yes?
*and yes, I think I qualify as one of those who believes that great art transforms the human existence.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and the rates at which members of each sex abuse, terrorize, rape, and kill each other, in order to see who's winning.
Pretending we're on a level playing ground now and that everything is equal and we can move forward from here as if that were the case is not going to help.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Completely ignoring that it's not equal across the board and that men and women (or even different types of women) face vastly different challenges.
xulamaude
(847 posts)Or maybe a failed poet?
Also, 'asshole' is gender neutral.
cer7711
(502 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)Why didn't you use "dicks" when you were happy to use "bitches"?
Ever thought about your default positions in any way? I know I do, which is why I am now a strong supporter of feminist rights.
edbermac
(15,933 posts)
cer7711
(502 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)that I'm reminded of a conversation I've had with old friends about living in the city, where they live quite still in the boonies.
Typically, they remark, 'too many people'; and I think to myself, 'there are too many people only when those people are trashy/human garbage' but of course, I can't say that out loud, but how it relates here is, it seems like so many people bring their psychological baggage here to DU and strike out at other members unfairly. People can't seem to let others just be who they are - no, they have to be these weird control freaks with others.
There would be less picking fights if those doing it were psychologically healthy. Sadly, I am of the personal opinion that many of those who are doing this (male, female, whatever) are mentally unwell. So I kind of steer clear of most of those kinds of fights - they aren't constructive, and damage board harmony.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)SOME folks of the same gender take it personally. We can't always remember to write SOME men or SOME women. So if we post a topic about men being creepy pervs that are potential rapists, I think it's safe to assume that the OP meant SOME men are creepy pervs that are potential rapists. Of course, if SOME people actually used that thing between their ears on DU, we'd have fewer personal gender issues. I figure the only man that should be offended by these blanket statements on DU is if they themselves are creepy pervs who are potential rapists. I feel the same goes for SOME women on DU who are offended by criticism. Some truths hit too close to home.
Marr
(20,317 posts)It isn't difficult to remember to use a qualifier like "some" when talking about groups. If I did forget to do so, I wouldn't be surprised that someone took offense. I like to think I'd apologize and correct the error, rather than suggest they're too stupid to realize I meant something I didn't actually say.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)And then you always have that someone that states, well, you didn't say SOME so you must have meant all... and then the debate becomes about whether or not someone used the word SOME. It's quite ridiculous and juvenile the way that happens. If I wrote a scathing post about creepy, pervy men doing creepy, pervy things, why would anyone assume I mean all men are creepy pervs? I feel as though writing specifically about creepy, pervy men kinda gives the hint that I don't mean all men are creepy, pervy guys.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)This term is loathed by the MRA* and PUA** communities because it hurts them.
Similarly all men are not being called potential rapists (the claim they that it is the feminist position is another MRA/PUA falsehood) but the problem that a woman alone has to regard every man as a potential rapist for her own safety.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
* MRA=Mens Rights Activists
** PUA=Pick Up Artists
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
valerief
(53,235 posts)trash the thread.
SpectorGrowl
(25 posts)Maybe they're all a bunch of schizophrenics with separate accounts waging gender wars with themselves? And Truman was a piece of shit president who decided to kill and maim thousands of Japanese for no good reason whatsoever. The Japanese were much more terrified of the Soviet invasion from the north. Dropping atomic weapons on them did not leave the Emperor shitting on his pants. Plus we dropped two of them on villages in Japan with no strategic military value whatsoever. Greatest generation my ass.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Over 16 million Americans were involved in WW2, almost 300,000 died. People at home sacrificed. They stopped a madman bent on world domination and extermination of undesirables. They may have saved humanity.
That was a great generation.
Response to Skip Intro (Reply #266)
Name removed Message auto-removed
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... of idiotic posts highlighting the problem you addressed
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)ironic, given the way you have changed over the last few years. Also funny, given how you interact with a former member of a web site that we shall not speak of.
Do you really need to bring your silly spats with the Men's group into GD??
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I think he's honestly trying to be thoughtful, in contrast to his former way of throwing out meaningless profanities just for the sake of being profane - that is not a flame, but rather, how I saw his style back then.
He actually is polishing his act, and I'm enjoying his participation here. He probably can't say the same about me, lol, but you know, we all do what we can. 
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)So we could all see what you're talking about, instead of just being told what to think...
philly_bob
(2,419 posts)I am finding this whole discussion divisive, distracting, and confusing.
Please post link to OP that started all this.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Your attempt at being Coy is rather obvious.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)"They are pulling the album cover, because they think it's sexist."
"What's the matter with being sexy?"
"Sex-IST."
senseandsensibility
(16,931 posts)I appreciate your support. I am lucky to be married to a liberal male. They are rare, however, in the true sense of the word. I remember decades ago when Alan Alda declared himself a feminist. It was mind boggling at the time. But male feminists do exist. I am married to one. Thank you again. And Merry Christmas. 
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...thankfully just a very loud and obnoxious minority of the many ladies that post on DU..
trumad
(41,692 posts)And by the way... WHAAAAAAA!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Seriously.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts) trumad
(41,692 posts)Whhhhaaaaa
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)That's complete and utter bullshit. It's akin to putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la I can't hear you!" because you don't want to hear what people say.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...have never EVER uttered anything negative about men....EVER..
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Every time people have a thread about men who harass.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)BTW if you are a Brit I'm ashamed to share a nationality with you.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Trying to figure out just what the fuck that had to do with my, or yours for that matter, nationality...
God save the Queen old chap!!!
Cheerio!! Pip, pip!!
intaglio
(8,170 posts)You just seem to think that because you call women "ladies" you are being polite and equitable. My mother's response to being called a "lady" was fairly strong, definitely not printable on DU for the same reason as I object; it creates a class of women who are not "ladies" and who are not worthy of respect.
Oh, and the majority of the feminists on this board (and elsewhere) are not man hating. What they hate are entitled creeps who think that they deserve a fair hearing because the women they like are "ladies".
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Good to see that you aren't judging me without knowing a single bloody thing about me...oh wait...
intaglio
(8,170 posts)and that you think that men are entitled to treat women as ineffective and slightly weak. So stop opening doors for ladies and start opening them for people, male and female; start acting equitably to all.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)But thanks for playing....
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)
99Forever
(14,524 posts)We have penises, hence, we MUST be at fault.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
applegrove
(118,499 posts)years on the DU with very little strife regarding women's rights. All of a sudden their is very angry debate. Almost as if there are gop sockpuppets on both sides trying to kill the light that was the DU: destroying what was once a safe place for discssion and ideas. I doubt very much the gop leaves the DU unmolested.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)And it is mostly one sided. Many here are dumped on just for being male and posting an opinion on certain subjects. All the OP's that accuse and or assume most men are rapists or potential rapist, for example. The anger heaped on anyone not agreeing 100% with the poster of the OP from this group. Descent is not tolerated well. The pile-on start when someone outside their group posts. It is very apparent from these threads that it is assumed that the abuse is always, or nearly always man against woman. The web is searched for stories showing men in a poor light and posted here. If a group of men tried to do the same thing about women, they would be banned in a short while.
Where is the respect for fellow DU'ers, with these constant put-downs and belittling? Dissenters are accused of being MRA's, just for having a slightly different opinion. They even post accusations of being MRA's against other DU'ers. They alert, giving trumped up and purposely misinterpreted and even made up reasons. One word that can be used for them here is "Disruptor", although I prefer the term "Bully".
Look at the people doing this. And the people supporting them. It doesn't take long to have a complete list of the bullying disruptors. It is the same people over and over again. When they are quiet, DU settles down for a while and then, "boom" out of the woodwork they come with some more flame bait OP's. and the crap starts all over again.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i could quietly go away allowing your accusation that ANYONE said.... most men are rapist to stand.
one post. where ANYONE said most men are rapist.
oh, besides men accusing women on du saying that. you know. the mens group.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)was reminded not just about how I was attacked in a way that never happens here, but so many recent battles over a word, a thought, a joke, or something else that has no real effect in the real world.
And it's always the same few that never take any responsibility for their own words or actions. And insist on absolutes that we all have to agree with, no matter how irrational or disproved. And that's on all sides-- everyone in these things has that tendency to talk past everyone else. Some control it better than others. Some don't
I was also reminded how threads with 327 replies are simply more evidence that the importance of a thread is in inverse proportion to the number of replies.
Congratulations for bringing Meta back, and good trolling.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Or are you just playing the "poor me" card?
trumad
(41,692 posts)It's as if they have no eyes, or simply forgot how to read.
Nah---they're just being coy.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)no.
trumad
(41,692 posts)you're being coy.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)trumad
(41,692 posts)Look---it's my observation here on DU-- an observation perfected from 13 years of being on this forum.
My reading between the lines may not be the same as your reading between the lines.
I see a subset of men on this site that like to poke the stick and stir up these so-called Feminist gangs.
I think they are sad little boys with Mommy issues.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)SI Swimsuit thread to start over in the Sports Forum??
Evoman
(8,040 posts)Getting kind of frustrating. If like to see a single thread that isn't completely derailed info bring about men by the forth freaking post.
Soundman
(297 posts)I have been reading your posts forever btw. Very much respect. .. Anyway, I have the unusual ability/or curse to spot trends and anomalies. Here is the trend I have spotted over the last six months or so. A small group of people have been posting in the group Hof, they have banned so many people from that group there becomes no discussion just an echo chamber of yeah what they said. Well that doesn't really create the drama a few of them seem to crave. So the same subject matter gets tweaked and posted in gd (sometimes as three or more themed posts). This draws in some men who generally agree with 99.9 percent with the post but may have a different angle. That .01 percent becomes a battle cry for over the top accusations to begin. And then a gang of people/trolls jump in and berate those who's views are different, they twist, inject and generally mold the others words into what they want.
Then then the conversation devolves into a mess that no longer resembles discussion but more like a grade school playground fight to see who can isnsult the other the most effectively and not get their posts hidden. Not all members express their opinions as well as others.
Anyway, I find a lot the posts over the top. This is Democratic Underground not Feminist underground. I have been a voting democrat for 33 years now and correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always thought that equal rights for ALL was a big part of our parties platform. That includes, woman, minorities, lgtb and others. I believe the daily asults against those in the same party with the same core beliefs is an affront when we still so much to fight for. Attacking your own makes people heads spin. It's the behavior you would expect if you had been infiltrated by right wing trolls, not those whos views may differ slightly.
trumad
(41,692 posts)My suggestion is look a bit more closely. What I see is a few assorted dudes poking their little sticks at the errr Fem's you mention---but their stick hits all women.
They know what they are doing---I know what they are doing.
In mho, they have no life..... and are sad little creatures.
RC
(25,592 posts)Yet there is a contingent here, that attacks us DU men, blaming us for their problems, instead of the far more logical choice, the Conservative Republicans, whose policies are way more responsible for what they seem to be complaining about.
Something is wrong here and I think you hit on it soundly.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I don't understand why feminist stuff elicits the response it does here. If someone posts a LGBT rights post, people respond with "+1" and support, and rightly so! There are cases where a person or two outs themselves as a troll, and there are probably some lurking homophobes here but they get pounced on if they reply negatively.
But if someone posts a feminist post, some people argue against it. Not a lot of people but more than just a couple. There are cases where I assume the replies will all be supportive, but then we get posts that are defensive or opposed to it. I am often surprised by that.
And then, once a post that it seems bizarre everyone doesn't agree with gets defensive remarks, THAT is when we from HOF go, "Huh?" and start posting other stuff about whatever issue it is. But the feeling that prompts it is something along the lines of, "How did anyone have a problem with a bunch of people saying 'don't rape?'" Not, "I'm going to stir up shit" or "I hate men."
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)When you paint such a one-sided picture it's easy to agree with you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)SOME men were insulted and the personal attacks and insults flew at just a couple women
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)It's amazing that you are able to pick yourself up day after day and post here fighting the sexism and the misogyny and the lies and the things and so forth.
I can repeat myself too.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are free game for insults, personal attacks, and the evil of all evil created on the baord. dare to defend ourselves and it becomes BOTH groups are doing it. and that is the utter bullshit of it all.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)It's amazing that you are able to pick yourself up day after day and post here fighting the sexism and the misogyny and the lies and the things and so forth.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)trumad
(41,692 posts)and it's the same bunch of dudes who chime in every time in those threads. This last week they decided to rear their sad little heads hence the uptick in he fake gender war. It's about as real as the war on Christmas...a war created by a few knuckleheads.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)That same standard of truth has a much lower hit rate in gender discussions. "Women are paid 23% less for the same work!" "Porn causes rape!" "The Men's Group should be closed down because it is full of MRA's!"
The problem with "don't rape" is that it presumes that the person you're talking to is in need of (and will listen to) the advice. I find it difficult to believe that you wouldn't see the problem if I were to post "A PSA" titled "don't steal" in HoF.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)GD is a group for, obviously, general discussion. Posting a thread called "don't steal" in HOF is not parallel to posting a thread called "don't rape" in GD. Posting a thread called "don't steal" in GD is parallel to posting a thread called "don't rape" in GD. And it should be fine, and I would be surprised if anyone assumed it meant everyone here was planning to steal.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Response to trumad (Original post)
Post removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)women and a specific duer?
was she being too boorish for you?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4220911
trumad
(41,692 posts)a post that got hidden. Like I said--- some are sad little sacks here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so damn tired of it
trumad
(41,692 posts)Don't let it get you down. You being a pain in the ass with these poor little boys makes my day.
Plus you know I got your back.
Happy New Year my friend.
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)of mostly humorous yet extremely sarcastic threads that about half the people think are funny and half think are puerile (perfect score for me when it comes to that type of shit) that have advanced the war of the sexes here on DU All I gotta say is, there comes a time when you have had enough lecturing.
When it is constant criticizing of everything you are or have done, you have to fight back a bit.
We are talking about behaviors that are long learned and there is constant criticism of those behaviors, it gets to you. Look at the discussion here. Opening doors for women is wrong. Being a gentleman is what I do and now, after being told all my lifetime by women from my Mom to my last girlfriend, that is disrespectful? Porn is wrong (even though I've watched my share of porn with women), and all of it is some type of rape porn. That every woman is being abused in porn while no mention of the males in the industry who have a much "harder" job and get paid ten times less. No mention of the women of porn that are owning studios and directing etc... (in fact I think the porn industry probably has more females in that type of role than almost all other companies do).
While it might not be said outright but there is a feeling that everything is directed at men in general when certain threads and comments pop up. (such as the PSA, of which I loved, but it is sad that they have to do that).
Now, apparently, we have to start to fantasize about women that are accomplished rather than beautiful or sexy..... or stop fantasizing altogether about women (yeah right).
There is a certain faction here, about ten posters really. Look to the fantasy thread or any of the other threads on the subject and find the posters with the most posts and you will see who it is that is fighting this battle, mostly within themselves. I think it is hilarious really, especially that thread. The same posters found it offensive yet have posted about a zillion times in it.(in fact, it might be my most posted thread after over ten years here and it is SARCASM) I started it to get a rise out of them, kick a few sacred cows along the way....... and it is OBVIOUS SARCASM.........., yet post on they go. I posted once past the OP, a joke about fantasizing about the Verizon guy (and nobody picked that one up and is pissed about it?) but some posters have spend the last three days on that thread. Saying the same critical crap about men that they spend the rest of their time posting on all the other threads.
One poster in particular has gone so far to link that thread in every conversation that they have been on for three days and has used such vulgarities as "Jack off" and "whack off" repeatedly in regards to that thread. It is a shame that that poster's only thought is "jack off" when thinking about a man fantasizing. VERY TELLING. I never one time even went there in the OP. I don't equate fantasizing with "treating my body like an amusement park" (see how much more imaginative you can be with the language?) . In fact quite the opposite. And to use such vulgar language to convey their point only proves their disdain for men. I am curious if the poster "Jills off" everytime they fantasize?
We get it. We've come a long way, baby. (Ha! Ha! Ha!) and yeah, we got a long ass way to go. We just don't need to constantly be reminded of our shortcomings, it is hard to hear all the time. Y'all are making it way too hard for us men. We are constantly put on the defensive here when it comes to issues of men and women, yet, as I can attest, could never even come close to doing something akin to that for women.
To quote my favorite Philosopher, Norman Peterson
"Women you can't live with em,
pass the beer nuts".....
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)It's just so HARD to be a man these days. My condolences.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And now you're whining about it?
Also, you think men have a harder job in the porn industry than women? Do you read anything written about it from exited actors in the industry at all? Women or men? Former producers? Anything?
Because you could not possibly be more wrong.
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)as who the two first posters are.
Not whining, I think it is freaking hilarious that you don't get it, never have got it, nor will you ever get it. And that you are so easily rattled.
What is it that you want?
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)Also, you think men have a harder job in the porn industry than women? Do you read anything written about it from exited actors in the industry at all? Women or men? Former producers? Anything?
Do you not know of gay porn, where the guys take equally sized objects in the same places that the girls are taking them (and writing about them?)? Dismissing half of the porn industry to make a point? Or is it only bad if it is a woman being fucked in the ass with a ten inch cock (to use your vernacular)? Is it bad that only the girls are given drugs in order to perform but not when the male actors are doing the same thing?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and talking about having been raped on porn sets, about being coerced into even going into the industry to begin with, etc.
Not that most here would care about that. She signed a contract and got paid, so that makes it ok.
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)Going on Stern etc. And for every woman who writes and tells, there are a zillion women who don't.
And are you really that sexist that you think only women are coerced into the sex trades? To me it seems as if by your logic, that men, as long as they cum, are not victims?
xulamaude
(847 posts)And who is doing the coercing?
Certainly not feminists - in fact it is feminists who decry to coercion of anyone into the sex trades.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Is that what you think?
Was my implication not clear enough last time? I know men are victims.
I'll say it even slower this time. I. have. not. seen. them. coming.forward. in. the. same. numbers. as. women. to. talk. about. having. been. abused. and. raped.
So are you saying that only women are liars and men are all honest and would never besmirch the awesome porn industry to try to make a buck. (See, I can play that game too.)
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)The women are not liars. Never said they were. Porn is abusive to many. Without going into detail, I probably am more familiar with that than you are. Male and Female. Porn.
You have to admit though, that a story by a female porn star is far more palatable than one from a male porn star. The female can write a book and make money on her story, for a guy, there is no incentive, nor is there an audience. I've seen a billion porn stars on Stern and not a one was male....(and they all seemed pretty happy to be porn star/celebrities)....
If a porn star gets screwed in the pooper and there is nobody around to hear it, does he still get screwed in the pooper?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)prudes and everything else cause we say.... Porn is abusive to many.
see how that works?
xulamaude
(847 posts)the scads of guys who volunteer for 'gang' gonzo vids.
Maybe they're the ones driving down the woodsmen's going rate?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Ugh. Now I feel sick.
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)Or do you assume that every girl that is involved in a gang bang is being abused? Do you think that women can enjoy that type of thing?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)implied I know.
Many in the industry are not abused. Yes, a number of former porn actresses have been telling their story lately, some of it is quite disgusting. One of them, Aurora Snow, has written a very graphic book telling of pain and operations etc to continue her porn career. It is an ugly story, that one. She was never a star and almost started doing gang bangs as soon as she entered the industry however, and worked in more films than most. And not 'major studio" type films, she did the cut em ups, (the rent a house for a day and film as much as you can then cut it up into a hundred other movies type of films) She has also gone on the book tour. Of course she is not lying, but the whole story needs to be told.
But, the ones telling these tales are only a very small percentage of porn actors, most of which do not tell the same story. If you watch Dave Attel's Porn closet on HBO (A talk show featuring former porn actors, directors and comedians that has porn films from the 70's and 80's running in the background) you will see that NOT everyone thinks their porn careers were so bad for them. Same goes with Stern. He has porn actors on all the time and few, if any (I hate Stern so I don't really know) that are not pretty darn happy about being a porn star.
There's certainly enough amateur gang bang porn out there to convince me that some women like that type of thing and don't need to be abused to decide to take on a room full of guys. Yes when it is forced it crosses the line, but not all gang bangs are rape.
And of course there is Linda Lovelace who now says she was "raped" in every scene of Deep Throat. That was a term she never used before however, although she has denounced her former career for decades....
Then there is Jenna Jameson who has gone back to porn because it is the only way she can care for her kids in the lifestyle that they are used to. It is too bad that she squandered all that money, fame and control and did nothing to better herself in thought of the future. Jenna set her own rules and was the biggest porn actor on the planet ten years ago. Now, not so much.
Porn is like everything, it has it's good points, it has it's bad points. Men like it and women like it. We like different pron. Men need the visual I think. Women not so much. Some do it for the money and some do it for the fun of it. Some do it because they are hooked on drugs and some do it because they have daddy issues. But that goes for both genders.
I have a lifelong friend who ran away from home at 16 and was hooked on Heroin three days later. Then started a gay porn career within the next few months. Came home at 19 and tried to live normally, but went back to the pron/gay lifestyle and never left.
And then I had a girlfriend that loved to do porn. LOVED IT. She loved it, loved everything about sex... She also loved to be what you would consider abused. Very heavily into Pain and pleasure especially when it was her pain creating her pleasure. (too much for me).....
Some things you let bother you and some you don't, just like anything. Eating meat for example. Or gasoline. Or clothing. People are getting abused in every walk of life. I worked my ass off in the most grueling trade possible and am broken down for the rest of my life thanks to things I did to earn a living. now I have chronic pain (carpal tunnel), can barely walk and my back seems as if it is on the verge of spasm-ing at any second. The guy who sits at his computer desk all day long for 20 years.....and gains 200 lbs... is being abused by his job as well.
Maybe we need a stamp for abuse free porn.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)And yet you sign off on this post with:
pass the beer nuts".....
There sure is a lot of projection in your posts lately.
Just sayin....
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the OP out.
convenient.
marshall
(6,665 posts)Many may choose not to identify their gender, and those that do may choose to identify a gender different from what they use in face to face interaction.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Uh, who is it here that has 91,000 posts or 110,000 posts on a single topic?
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)This is a fairly new thing. I have always considered myself a feminist, and have always spoken out for equality. No one in real life has ever had any issue with my treatment of women or my views on gender.
But apparently it has become offensive to consider men as womens' equals. Women here have increasingly been making broad brush statements about men that juries repeatedly allow to stand even though similar treatment of women would not be tolerated for a moment.
I hate it. I prefer feeling like we're all on the same team. But a small group of very outspoken female supremacists here has been doing all they can to make DU an unwelcoming place for any man who doesn't simply defer to them on issues of gender and sexuality.
Sorry...the answer to misogyny is not treating men as poorly as you are able. The answer is bringing us along to your way of thinking. This is possible if you let your resentment go for long enough to remember that we are individuals, too, with our own personal beliefs that aren't part of some monolithic male mindset.
But it's much easier to be super lazy and just treat us all like we're the problem. Who cares about being constructive anyway?
left coaster
(1,093 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
yuiyoshida
(41,818 posts)I have a tendency to bite.