Women of DU

[boston bean]

Have you ever had been made to feel uncomfortable, fearful, uneasy when a male is leering at you, ogling your body?

Most every single woman I know has had this happen to them and have in the least been made to feel uncomfortable.

This isn't to bash men, it's to help some gain a perspective on how widespread the problem is (today obviously proves some do not get it), and for women to find common cause and support with the issue.

I will provide a brief story of one of my experiences, if you would like to share as well, please do.

I'll start, it's happened many many times, but the worst was at the beach, with an older male staring, ogling, me and my sister. We were young teens. He was in his fifties, and not an ugly man, physically. He would not stop staring, his eyes were fixed on us. We were so uncomfortable that we left the beach and yeah we made sure he wasn't following us. The feeling we had is he made us feel dirty, made us feel extremely uncomfortable, and made us scared. Just a day at the beach, we could not enjoy. This is the type of behavior women are discussing.

[DanTex]

1. Men in their 50s shouldn't be ogling young teens on the beach.

That's creepy. I think we can all agree on that one.

[boston bean]

3. Understand this is from where our experiences bring us.

It doesn't mean we hate men, that we don't want them to ask for a date, or our phone #, but we know and we recognize the behavior. These are the types of things we are discussing.

[DanTex]

11. No, I get it. I'm not offended by the "creep shaming" or whatever.

There are guys look at and talk about women in creepy or threatening ways. I'm not one of them. That doesn't mean I don't look at women, or flirt, or anything else. With a little common sense and respectfulness, it's not really that hard to tell the difference.

[boston bean]

12. .

Thank you.

[uppityperson]

2. of course

[Skittles]

4. yes, and I took action

I spoke up and made THEM feel uncomfortable and hoo boy do I know how to do THAT

[boston bean]

5. I've done that as well, and the retort is usually, "b*tch".

[Skittles]

7. I don't give a damn WHAT they call me

I get it across that their behavior is creepy and sickening and THAT is the point - it is ESPECIALLY effective when done in front of their friends

[boston bean]

8. Well, as an adult, their words don't bother me so much, but some have gotten very angry

and that adds another dimension.

[geek tragedy]

43. the problem is that some men can and do get violent when humiliated and rejected.

women shouldn't have to choose between suffering in silence and worrying about a violent attack for breaking the silence

[BainsBane]

6. Yes, starting at age 10

walking down the street and being propositioned for sex. At age 12 being asked if I was "working." At age 13 being asked if I was wearing "falsies." At age 14 having an adult man jump onto the sill of my bedroom window and demand I let him in.

That is when it most bothered me, when I was very young. I could tell dozens of stories from adulthood, but it was the childhood experiences that were most disturbing.

[Texasgal]

9. It's happened to me many times.

here's an example:

Just recently as a matter of fact. I was on a long flight from Austin to Chicago. The flight was packed. My seat was next to an elderly man that for some reason could not stop gazing at my bosom. Btw- not that it matters but... I was wearing a button up shirt and fully covered. Anyway... He kept on and on. I'd look up from my lap top and see him doing it and he would look away. I started re-positioning myself in different ways and he kept on. I was so disgusted. I finally got up and complained to the air staff. They felt bad, but there were no other seats. Finally the stewardess gave me a pillow and i was able to cover my chest up.

I'm sure this guy was harmless, he could have been my grandpa. It just pissed me off that I had to actually get a PILLOW to cover my fully dressed body so that some old chap couldn't get his jollies any more that day.

[Matariki]

74. I wonder what would have happened it you loudly asked him

"Will you PLEASE stop staring at my breasts. It's making me uncomfortable" ?

Maybe if women called those kind of men on that more often they would knock it the fuck off.

Or maybe you could have tweeted about it so that by the time the plane landed he was the world famous leering guy

[xulamaude]

10. Too many times to count.

And I have also felt the need to leave situations that would have been/were supposed to be fun if I hadn't felt so uncomfortable.

And now I get to see men do the same thing to my 13 year old daughter and watch her 'suck it up' and feel uncomfortable (and possibly fearful) too.

What a fucking JOY it is...

[mercuryblues]

53. tell your

daughter to look at the guy and ask him if he is a pedophile.

[BainsBane]

55. I would tell them I was going to march down to the police station and report them

What I didn't know then is that the cops were on the take and allowed that activity to take place.

[kelly1mm]

104. Report them for what? Although creepy, I don't think looking at someone, even an underage

person in a public place is against the law. Did I miss something?

[BainsBane]

113. soliciting children for prostitution is a crime

That was my experience starting from age 10.

[kelly1mm]

124. That surely is and it is tragic that it happened to you. I thought the comment was about

someone oggleing (is that a word) your daughter and/or you. It certainly was a matter for the police if solicitation was what occurred and that should be taken seriously by the police.

OK - I see my disconnect - the subthread was not started by you and different posters made comments about themselves/their children being stared at. Then your comment about reporting it to the police (but no escalation in the facts about the underlying activity) and I just did not connect the dots. My apologies

[BainsBane]

127. The comments have been about sexualizing underage girls and children

That you would seek to dismiss my experience from that discussion is unacceptable. At any rate, I was not responding to you. You have no right to limit my speech.

[kelly1mm]

133. Sexualizing via looking/staring/oggling underage (or overage) women is a problem. It is not illegal.

Thus my confusion in why you would report it to the police.

[azmom]

193. I was struck

With the same feelings when I saw it happening to my daughter.

[hootinholler]

13. A no good dirty rotten despicable post

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 08:12 PM - Edit history (2)

That I am truly sorry for.

I wish I could have said what I was meaning, but I couldn't.

Many thanks to RedQueen for her help.

[boston bean]

14. This is probably the most offensive post anyone has ever written to me on DU

and that's saying something.

How fucking dare you, say it was my upbringing.

[redqueen]

22. If your parents weren't such religious fundies, you'd LOVE being objectified!

It's only them fundie prude wimminz that mind being treated as less than, dontchaknow.

[boston bean]

24. OMFG, RQ, really!

This is a kicker, that comment there. It was his dirty thoughts that we knew he was thinking that made us feel like dirt and dirty.

I just can't believe someone who has been on DU for so long would type that.

[redqueen]

33. I wish I could be surprised.

I have nothing against hootinholler... This is just where we are culturally.

We are all raised in this. We unconsciously seek to absolve men and blame (if not outright vilify) women out of habit. Completely unconsciously. Well most do it unconsciously. I'm sure you're well aware of the other kind of person.

The recent Salon article about how we teach children that women are liars was but one aspect of how we indoctrinate children into patriarchal thinking. It's something inside us all that we all have to guard against. Just like racism.

[Old and In the Way]

181. Hi RQ....I have to admit something on this thread.

I, too, was sorta raped. My folks used to have really wild paries (hey, they survived WW2....wth!). Anyways, one night, one of my mother's drunk friends decided that she needed to "teach me how to be a man". For that, I'm thankful. Shit happens. Honest to god, it happened...but I'll probably be banned because I'm a male and this is counter to your reality. Anyways, we're all anonymous posters here and I'm sorry for your awful experience...but mine had a happy ending. Oh well.

[redqueen]

190. Your post is FUCKING SICKENING.

Why the fuck do you think I would care if you are "thankful" for being raped?

Why do you think anyone wants to hear that?

Why are you pretending to have any empathy at all for any victim who didn't have such a great experience as you did, being raped?

[hootinholler]

25. Why would you feel dirty?

Creeped out? Yeah. Angry? Righteously so.

But Dirty? Really? Where did that come from if not what you had learned about the world up to that point?

Honestly I'm truly sorry I have offended you. I apologize for that unreservedly. That was not my intention. It's just that I have worked through feeling dirty over other issues and it was helpful to me when I was able to recognize the root of those feelings.

[boston bean]

26. You have fucking truly offended me to the core!

and you still are.

[hootinholler]

28. I have apologized

It's clear that a lot more than I wrote is being taken away from what I actually wrote.

Again, sincerely, I'm sorry you are offended.

[boston bean]

31. So glad you are sorry I'm offended.

Leave me alone.

[MerryBlooms]

59. You should stop digging.

Your initial comment was horribly insulting and your non apology is now the icing on that putrid cake.

[whopis01]

198. Saying you are sorry someone is offended

and saying that you are sorry for what you did to offend them are two very different things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. You shouldn't give people such power

No one on DU, or in real life for that matter, has the ability to make me feel anything. And certainly not by simply looking at me.

[boston bean]

153. Obviously you have described yourself to a T.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. It's a better way to live.

Convince me with arguments, I listen to those because they are worth listening to.

[boston bean]

156. I'm not wasting my time with someone who doesn't take into consideration

others in how they feel. You feel how you feel, because are you and no one can make you do any differently. Said so yourself.

Waste.of.time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Okee dokee.

FWIW, my day is still going nicely. It sounds as if yours is not.

[boston bean]

159. FWIW, I had a great day! Don't concern yourself with me.

Remember, concern yourself with you!

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. Thanks! One more visit to the hot celebrities thread and it's off to fix dinner! n/t

[boston bean]

163. Cool, bro! nt

[xulamaude]

29. It may not have been your intention but

what you've said just amply illustrates the complete lack of 'getting it' that requires feminists to keep repeating themselves ad nauseam.

Christ.

[hootinholler]

32. Which part of what I said?

Please educate me. I totally want to 'get' whatever 'it' is.

[geek tragedy]

34. let's start with you not being qualified to tell other people why they feel what they feel. nt

[hootinholler]

46. Yes that was inartfully put, obviously

I was trying to relate the roots of similar feelings that I have had. That the recognition of those roots helped me tremendously in my own happiness.

My point is that it's worth knowing where emotions are coming from. To use the worn metaphor, I need to know which bags are mine and which ones belong to others, because why carry other people's baggage when you're trying to shed your own?

Please realize that I am only speaking about me right now and no one else. I'm in no way intending to imply anyone other than I has emotional baggage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. Seriously? Telling men that they are "ogling"; because they want to make women feel...

...frightened, creeped out and bad, is the whole point of this little shitstorm.

It's true enough that you're the only one in your head, and that no one is qualified to tell you what you're thinking.

The same is true for me.

[geek tragedy]

186. Men ogle for any number of causes/reasons, some

are worse than others.

[xulamaude]

36. It's easy - just read what we have said in this thread.

Or even any of the other several thousand posts women have made.

[KitSileya]

39. Check out the plenty Feminism 101 resources on the net. NT

[redqueen]

40. Let me try.

By pointing the finger ar anyone but the pervert staring at an underage girl, the implication from your statements is 'aw it's too bad you were upset by that. but really, isn't that somehow your fault, or your parents fault? Certainly its nothing to do with his behavior!'

In reality a man ogling a girl is sick. Just sick. And its got nothing to do with culture, or her upbringing. No matter what culture it happens in, no matter what her upbringing, it is sick.

Part of the reason why girls AND WOMEN who are ogled by perverts feel dirty is because they are forced -- that is, they are made to participate unwillingly -- with his sexual ideation. They are made painfully aware that they have now been very obviously included in his sexual fantasies. Men need to learn to keep that shit in their heads.

[hootinholler]

50. Thanks!

Really. First I totally agree the dude was a creep. I'm not intending to defend his behavior in any way.

So there was a list of emotions the incident raised. Mainly Fear, but explicitly stated was dirty.

What I obviously have trouble putting in any acceptable form is the notion that it's the creep who is dirty, who should feel dirty.

That a victim is made to feel dirty is certainly an aspect of societal influence. It was helpful to me personally when I recognized that and somehow I felt less dirty. I could put that emotion where it belongs.

I know little about having been forced into situations.

[redqueen]

62. I get where you're going with that...

but what you're doing is invalidating someone else's feelings.

You cannot say that the victim is made to feel dirty because of social influence. That simply is not your call to make.

[hootinholler]

71. No I didn't mean to go that far

I can see how what I wrote can be taken that way, I was blunt. I'm sad it took all this to get here as well. I don't want to cause grief.

The post has raised such a rukus, it seems a self delete is the cowards way out. Other than apologizing I don't know what to do.

[Texasgal]

44. Old men oogling

at teenagers IS FUCKING DIRTY.

Get it?

[hootinholler]

51. Yes but it's the old man who is dirty n/t

[Texasgal]

54. It's none of your business

If she felt dirty or not!!

You know, I was sexually assaulted by a creep that tapped me on the back to ask me what time it was ( in a mall parking lot ) and he then proceeded to ejaculate all over the front of my clothing as I turned around.

I was disgusted, scared and YES. I felt DIRTY. I dare you to tell me I had no right to feel that way!

[hootinholler]

63. That was not my intent

To tell anyone they don't have the right to feel anything.

I too have felt dirty and guilty because of anothers actions. It helped me to put those feelings in perspective, that in reality I was not the dirty or guilty one.

[Texasgal]

66. This thread was not asking

for "help" or anything that your response mentioned.

It was addressed to DU WOMEN to post their real stories about being cat called and or gazed or put in uncomfortable situations.

What exactly was your intent?

[xulamaude]

80. That's an excellent question. nt

[bettyellen]

117. his intent was to belittle the woman's feelings. one has to ask why he felt the need.

[hootinholler]

143. No it wasn't at all

And frankly I'm so upset over this I honestly can't remember the urge to post other than I know how it feels to be in a similar situation.

I did so badly, horribly. I missed the mark of what I was trying to say and then was obtuse about why because when I read what I had written I heard what I wanted to get across not what was actually written. Even though I didn't understand why what I had written was I apologized. By the time my candle started flickering it all had snowballed.

I have learned, I am sorry.

[boston bean]

149. I can accept that.

Thank you.

[hootinholler]

151. Thank you!!

Seriously.

That means more to me than I have words for.

[Texasgal]

150. I'll accept that.

Look, I know i've said some pretty dumb or hurtful things on DU in my past. If it were not for some form of forgiveness I wouldn't be here.

I will not say anything more about your comment and you are okay.

Happy Holidays!

[hootinholler]

161. Thank you

Merry Merriment to you as well!

[840high]

173. Merry Xmas.

[bettyellen]

164. learn from this one thing, it is different if you are a man. you haven't had people rub off on you

on the subway (most likely) or strangers whisper incredibly angry disgusting things in your ear for no reason, or give you a run down over which body parts please them - and which do not. Crap like that happens all the time in crowded cities- easier to hide in plain sight. You never know how it's coming from, they all seem so normal.
Those things can make you feel dirty, and that is a normal reaction. Never ever frame it to inspect the victims frame of reference. If it's gross, she has every right to her feelings.

[hootinholler]

167. I have actually, but not to the degree that a woman would.

I have long hair and am mistaken from behind on occasion. I'm also large so personal space in public is non existent at times.

I'll likely retain the lesson

[bettyellen]

170. multiply it by 20 and you'll know what we have heard from friends, and then that

would be your context. And guys here will tell you you are imagining it, or would enjoy it, if you were not so conceited. The woman hate here is OTT.

[xulamaude]

17. "your upbringing made you feel dirty"

An upbringing in a culture that takes rape lightly and shames sl*ts. Both of which are components of rape culture.

This is NOT about having fundie, prudish parents.

[hootinholler]

35. Thank you.

I agree it's not about prudish parents.

[xulamaude]

42. You will please not thank me when I am obviously

not agreeing with anything you have said here.

[theHandpuppet]

18. Wow

Do you think you could POSSIBLY have been more offensive? Disgusting.

[Skittles]

19. LOL

are you f***ing kidding? Plenty of men know how to act in public - the creep BostonBean described DID NOT

[hootinholler]

30. Where did I defend his behavior? n/t

[BainsBane]

64. You put the onus of the shame on the victim

and insisted the only reason girls felt there was anything wrong with adult men sexualizing them is because they were raised with prudish values.

[RC]

69. Give it up.

They will read what they will read. What you write is just more ammo for them to misinterpret.

[Skittles]

126. they? them?

WTF

[geek tragedy]

20. Nice victim blaming. Very revealing. nt

[BainsBane]

21. Really, how much do you think children are supposed to overcome?

When they are sexualized before even reaching puberty? You don't seem to have read a single post in this thread. I guess I should have taken it as a complement that middle age men wanted to buy sex from me when I was ten years old. If only I hadn't been raised to be such a prude, I would have laid back and enjoyed it. Same goes for the doctor who molested me at age 4. Obviously something is seriously wrong with me for not enjoying the attention. Those men didn't "make me feel anything." My upbringing made me too uptight to understand my role was to be a sexual object at an early age. But then, I'm just too uptight.

[Texasgal]

27. What?

Seriously?

Wow.

[graywarrior]

38. Whoa!

Not cool, dude. Never dictate to others what they should feel.

[hootinholler]

56. I know, that really wasn't what I intended n/t

[demmiblue]

60. Well, that response is fucked up beyond belief. n/t

[bettyellen]

76. that was repulsive, which is a long way from "unartful".

[Whisp]

122. oh my...

"he made us feel"
Ok, uncomfortable, scared, I can understand. Totally.

I don't think that HE made you feel dirty, rather your upbringing made you feel dirty.

It's a subtle thing, but once *I* overcame that basis and saw where those feelings originated I found I was able to cope better with similar feelings.

On that other thread where you guessed what my answer to another would be, you never came back to see if you were correct.

===
sweet jeebus on a pogo stick.

[hootinholler]

148. I agree, who wrote that?

Have you ever thought one thing and expressed it so poorly that what you wrote wasn't what you were trying to say?

Well, I have. I have also learned.

I edited in the apology rather than a self delete because this blossomed so quickly and it seemed cowardly.

[Whisp]

165. Yeh, I'm guilty of that too.

and sometimes I'm a coward about it and delete.

[Old and In the Way]

179. I believe Warren Montangue is responisble for this.

Before he showed up, there was peace between the sexes. Can we run this scoundrel off DU?

[bettyellen]

187. he's a legend in your own mind, and probably the foot in your….

[Old and In the Way]

184. You were right on your first post.

Fuck it, I'm going down, but DU can no longer be a place where we can talk honestly, especially when we might fear RW trolls who live vicariously as the most extreme feminists you never met in reality. Oh well, it was a damn good 10 year run.

[redqueen]

15. Too many times to count.

Starting around 11 years old, and it still happens now that I'm middle aged and overweight. Doesn't even matter that I do nothing to my hair but wash and brush it, wear hardly any makeup, and most often wear loose, baggy clothes.

It's especially sickening to me to have women encourage this behavior by calling it complimentary, and claiming that women will miss it when men finally stop. Trust me, I will not.

[etherealtruth]

48. That has been my experience

I went out with a younger co-worker, a couple of years ago, (to provide a little comfort and empathy) ... some jack ass approached to tell me I was a "MILF" ... my younger friend felt offended he didn't say that to her. for the love of Pete I was horrified that some jack ass felt free to approach me and say that.

[redqueen]

58. Ugh. How sad.

Just all of it, sad.

[Matariki]

84. Miss it? OMFG

No.

The best thing about being in my 50s is rarely having to deal with that shit anymore. What a relief. I get to go about my day without some ass thinking that the only reason I exist is for their entertainment. Miss it? Ha.

[redqueen]

116. IKR?

I've seen women here on DU say that. That we women who complain so much are going to miss it one day.

My reaction:

[xulamaude]

129. My mom is on DU?!

No way I will ever "miss it". Ever.

[redqueen]

132. !

[etherealtruth]

131. the people saying it are clearly NOT women

... or not women that value themselves!

[KitSileya]

16. Oh, definitely.

I went from nothing to being substantially "endowed" and boys and men stopped looking me in the face when talking to me. I'd been wearing turtlenecks, because I like them, but I quickly added a plethora of my father's shirts over them to hide my body. When that didn't help completely, I gained weight, and became invisible except for fat shaming, and what a relief that was!

[laundry_queen]

41. ditto ditto ditto

It started at age 11 for me. By age 12 I was a b-cup and age 14 I was a d-cup. I was thin and athletic so my chest was large in comparison. Not only did I deal with constant harassment at school, but also at my jobs, at the mall, walking down the street minding my own business....I even had older guys walk right up to me and cup my breasts, like they were public property or something. Then there was the whistling, the calls of 'nice ass!' or 'nice tits!'. When I became fat and the attention was less, it WAS a relief, like you said. I feel much safer now, which is so incredibly sad.

[CrispyQ]

23. Recently on the bus I watched a middle aged man, 45 or so, openly stare at a young pretty woman.

I'm sure she noticed. I did. I think everyone in that section of the bus did. So I stared at him. It took a few moments, but eventually he looked my way & I made an expression, like "What the fuck?" He went back to looking at her & then glanced at me again. I flipped him off & didn't stop looking at him. Another woman who had watched all this, looked at him & laughed. He moved to the back of the bus.

And yes, when I was younger it happened all the time. Now that I'm older not so much, but still on occasion.

[MadrasT]

37. From the time I was 11 years old.

And guys would blow their horns and yell obscenities out the car window at me as I was walking down rural roads. I literally had no idea how to react and HATED that I was becoming a "woman" if that was what it was going to mean.

I remember three guys leering at me and looking at my chest at a farmers market... and my 6'5" husband (a few paces behind me) slamming one of them up against a wall. I wanted to vaporize. What the hell, men literally fighting about MY BREASTS? Fucking seriously? THEY ARE MY BUSINESS not anyone else's business. I was as angry at my husband for "claiming his territory" as I was at the dudes who leered.

It has diminished since I stopped performing "feminine" and that is even sadder. Seems like some men really do think women are presenting themselves for male consumption (visual and otherwise) - when I stopped presenting as an attractive women, the unwanted behavior diminished greatly.

Which is pathetic, because when I did engage in "girl presentation", I surely wasn't doing it to attract the attention of men.

This nongendered thing lets me fly under the radar and that is a very cool (though unplanned) bonus.

[Sheldon Cooper]

45. We ALL have!

And I do mean everyone. It doesn't matter if you're thin, fat, hot, not particularly attractive, whatever. Every woman is subjected to the gaze, that look that determines in his mind if we are fuckable. We are all evaluated and judged according to hard-on potential. All of us.

[TBF]

47. At least uncomfortable on occasion yes -

the worst for me was not actual ogling but rather whistling when I was out running or something like that. I would never respond and as I got older I realized it didn't matter - they don't care whether you respond or not. It is totally a power thing for them - just like rape.

[Butterbean]

49. Honestly, no.

Men leer sometimes, but not to the point that it freaks me out and makes me leave wherever I am. Maybe if I'd had it happen when I was younger, IDK. I was a late bloomer and also very naive, so stuff like that didn't really register on my radar.

The most traumatic thing involving a strange man that happened to me was when I was 9 years old, racing through the Atlanta airport with my mother, and a strange man going in the opposite direction reached out and grabbed me in the stomach and smiled and made a noise. I will never forget that. It was creepy. That, however, involved direct contact.

[mercuryblues]

52. when i was 14

a man in his 30's that I did not know grabbed a breast and told me "nice titties" When he got an earful, I was the "bitch".

Walking down the street? to many times to count, yet I was the frigid one who wouldn't give a blow job on demand, to a stranger.

So when women won't give a guy the time of day, they have no idea that when we ALL were younger we learned that even a smile could invite a guy to ask if he could "rub his cock between your boobs."


But we have something wrong with us because we don't smile at every fucking guy we meet. That means we must hate men.

It is absofuckinlutely sickening that the guys who engage in the behavior listed above shouldn't be considered creeps, but it is offensive to them.

CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP
CREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEPCREEP

Own it, if that is what you do. If you don't do that shit, don't act as if you have been aggrieved. Because quite frankly being called a creep is mild to the crap women have been called for telling a creep no, I do not want your dick in my mouth.

[Matariki]

92. +1

bravo. yes.

[whopis01]

199. Your last paragraph nails it.

Last edited Tue Dec 24, 2013, 11:00 PM - Edit history (1)

I have never understood why so many men feel attacked by these posts.

I know the type of guy being talked about. I see them all the time. I also know I am not one of those guys - so I know the post isn't directed towards me.

If I did engage in such behavior then maybe being called out on would upset me... That is what I suspect is going in with many of the defensive retorts.

[Logical]

57. I doubt any man on this forum thinks that behavior is ok. n-t

[geek tragedy]

89. some 'men' have suggested that women wear burkas if they don't like being stared at.

That was today, in response to the male gaze video from India.

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10024214731#post166



Other men have chimed in on how they feel victimized for not being able to ogle attractive women,

http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4216100



complaints that calling out this ogling and leering is 'creep-shaming' (a term used by misogynists to claim the mantle of victimhood)

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10024217568

and excuse-making re: men are just hard wired for that so stop complaining if we dare appreciate the beauty of women's t!ts:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4217343

or that it's hypocritical to complain about men ogling women, since (I shit you not, this person actually wrote this) women ogle other women just as much as men do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4219864

So, DU has a bunch of men who think exactly like that.

[Logical]

112. Wow, that is terrible. n-t

[geek tragedy]

120. the hits keep on coming

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4220033

[a la izquierda]

61. Of course.

I have tattoos. Guys will stare, come into personal space for a closer look, and reach out to touch them. I've grabbed more wrists than I care to.
I don't find it hot, attractive or interesting.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

65. "He was in his fifties, and not an ugly man, physically."

What difference does it make what he looked like?

Some of the dads in the neighborhood checked me and my friends out as we became teenagers. We laughed at them -- what pervs, we thought. I was ogled for decades, and was never made to "feel dirty." I dealt with it numerous ways. Ignoring. Walking away. Humor. Lectures about mothers, wives, daughters. Staring them down. A hearty "fuck you" if a guy got too pushy with me.

I've been flashed three times. Once in a department store with a gf -- we laughed in his face. Another time in parking lot -- I swung my car around to confront him, but he took off running. Another time sitting on the Metro. THAT was upsetting, because he moved his newspaper, and that thing was practically in my face. I moved to the other end of the car and got off at the next stop, completely rattled.

I knew the power looks have over some men, and I'll admit, I worked it. And if I got bent out of shape every time I was checked out or approached, I would have been a pretty miserable person.

[BainsBane]

70. It's okay then

Let men sexualize children. No big deal. The children just need to get over it. Who cares? It's only their bodies. It's not like children actually matter, especially if born female.

I guess all that hue and cry about the Catholic Church pedophilia scandal was much ado about nothing. Or is it different for boys?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

73. Don't put words in my mouth.

I relayed what a group of 14-year-old girls thought when Creepy Dads were checking us out as we rode our bikes through the 'hood, or hung out at the pool. We laughed at them. We weren't traumatized.

Your post is a perfect example of why so many on DU reject HOF's emotional, manipulative bullshit.

Over and out.

[BainsBane]

81. Then perhaps you should read a thread

before you should tell people something is no big deal. You told BostonBean she had a problem for feeling uncomfortable about middle aged men learing at her when she was underage. The problem is not old men hitting on underage girls or even children, but that a woman has the nerve to express her discomfort with it. Most people here have recounted stories about such behavior, and worse, at very young ages. That you care so little that you can't bother to read a thread and figure out what you are making a point of invalidating is reflective of your own values.

I am not HOF. My name is BainsBane. If you can't deal with people individually, that is entirely your problem.

[kcr]

86. So many on DU?

Speak for yourself. You may think joining the bash HOF club makes you a special member of some highly respected group on DU. Most people think of it as petty meta bullshit. Don't kid yourself.

[seabeyond]

108. thank you. nt

[boston bean]

95. I said that because people have said that women are only uncomfortable if ugly men

harass, ogle, make the uncomfortable. OK?

[mercuryblues]

166. Yeah

I found that comment offensive.

I mean what 13 year old wouldn't like the Dad of a kid she was babysitting, stick his hands between their legs and ask if she wants to earn a few extra dollars. It makes no difference what the guy looked like.

But according to a person on the other thread, women only find getting leered at by ugly men offensive. Good looking guys, not so much.

And then *some* men find it offensive when the men who do this get shamed.

[LumosMaxima]

67. Yes, it's happened to me.

I noticed something strange a few years ago that's related. For many years, I rarely had occasion to go out in public with a man accompanying me. Then in 2007, I started spending time with a male friend who was 6'1" and very muscular (and also overweight). He was just a huge guy. And I noticed people were more polite to *me* when he was with me. A couple of years after that, I went out with my father to do some shopping and noticed the same thing. People didn't ogle me, and would get out of my way and call me "ma'am," when one of those guys was with me -- no one did that when I was out alone or with a female companion.

The worst of it was that they weren't showing respect to me personally -- they assumed, at least unconsciously, that I was the property of my male companion, so the respectful behavior was actually directed at them.

[mercuryblues]

175. I understand that

to a t.

[Liberal_in_LA]

68. yes, i am sure it happens to all of us

[Matariki]

72. Jezus fuck yes.

For the 30 some years between my adolescence and mid 40's just walking down the street minding my own business was an exercise in extreme aggrevation and dealing with a near constant anger. That's why these discussions really trigger me - if anyone had to go through what most girls and women do on a near daily basis they would shut the fuck up about not understanding what leering is.

And in case anyone thinks otherwise, I'm talking just trying to go to the store or somewhere - dressed in jeans and oversize t-shirt and no makeup. And not JUST staring but comments on my ass, or telling me to 'smile', or trying to get my phone number, or just wanting SOMETHING from me - for themselves, and then being called a bitch or worse when I ignored them. In fact, I'm pretty certain that the person who broke into my house and tried to rape me was one of the guys I ignored while on my way to pick up my broken down car I didn't have the money to pay for. I was in a very bad mood for reasons of my own, but no, these assholes seemed to think that my existence was all about them. When I ignored them they got all sorts of belligerent ugly, and unfortunately they had seen where I lived. A week later some asshole broke in and jumped me at 4am. (Unfortunately for him I practiced martial arts but that's another story).

[Mister Ed]

75. And sometimes it happens in an instant.

Your post brought to mind a scene from my youth that played out in about 1.5 seconds, but which left a lasting impression on me.

The year that I was nineteen, my buddy Pete and I worked as housepainters for the summer. One day, at lunchtime, we got into Pete's truck and headed off to the sandwich shop to pick up a couple of subs. On the way back, I was just tearing into my sandwich when I was struck by an apparition of beauty that made me freeze involuntarily in mid-bite.

Tall and statuesque, she was walking along the roadside with a friend, and probably passed almost within arm's length of me. I must have looked like a total asshole. In the moment that she saw my eyes lock onto her, I saw a look of utter shame and discomfort flash across her features as she cast her eyes downward.

And the last thing I saw as I flashed by? Goddamit, she was no more than fourteen. Deceptively tall and womanly, but still, no more than fourteen.

So there I am. In the space of a couple of seconds, I've gone from being a guy minding his own business and eating his lunch to being a guy who's just made a fourteen-year-old girl feel totally cruddy, and is now feeling totally cruddy about it.

I'm not going to bullshit you and tell you that I've gone through my life since then wearing blinders. But over the course of thirty-five years, I've always remembered that brief scene, and I've always tried to be considerate of the feelings of the women I see out in public. And I've always wished there was some way I could get a big rubber eraser and wipe away the cruddy feelings I left on that girl.

[bettyellen]

109. I see a lot of anger from men who got the same look that you did, now directed at women….

instead of being circumspect about the situation, and having any empathy- they double down and insist there is nothing for a woman to be bothered by. That is what is behind most of this. How dare she be bothered!!

[LWolf]

77. Yes.

Starting from about age 11. I could never relax in public. Never. Sometimes not at home or around the adults that knew me personally, either.

Walking to school, going to the store, the beach, the park, out to eat, to the bus stop, the movies...where ever. It didn't matter.

And, in my era, I was somehow supposed to feel complimented rather than threatened. Except that I didn't.

What I learned was this: there were no males in my life I could trust to have my back. There were no males who would like me for myself or appreciate me for anything beyond the physical. It didn't help that there were no brothers or father or uncles or any male family members; every male was a predator. I was the prey.

As an older teen and a young adult I did find men I could trust.

They were gay.

[NoOneMan]

78. Women ogle other women's breast as much as men

Have you ever had been made to feel uncomfortable, fearful, uneasy when a male is leering at you, ogling your body?

Funny and sexist how you give one gender a free pass for the exact same behavior, or otherwise choose not to focus on their objectify actions whatsoever

[LWolf]

85. Nope.

I don't "ogle other women's breasts." Any more than I "ogle" their noses or fingers or any other part.

Sorry.

[NoOneMan]

99. And since you are a representative sample of all women...

Oh, that's right. Wait a minute...

[LWolf]

191. That's one well-used way to

negate what a woman has to say about being a woman, isn't it?

[NoOneMan]

192. I learn from the best

These dialogues have nothing to do with honest discussion. They haven't for months.

[xulamaude]

87. Are you a DU woman?

No? Go start your own thread about how creeped out women by other women looking at their breasts.

Because you know all about it, right?

[geek tragedy]

91. The title of this thread is not "Du men, post your dishonest excuses for ogling women" nt

[NoOneMan]

97. Sounds like a call-out

[geek tragedy]

101. No, just an accurate statement, unlike your 'contribution' nt

[BainsBane]

94. No, they don't

As an owner of large breasts, I can tell you emphatically that is not the case. Pointing out sexist behavior is not sexism.
What is sexist is distorting reality in order to protect privilege.

[NoOneMan]

96. Eyetrack study captures men’s — and women’s — objectifying gazes

http://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/unltoday/article/eyetrack-study-captures-men-s-and-women-s-objectifying-gazes/

Though the results were consistent with anecdotal expectations of gaze behavior, Gervais said she was surprised with some of the findings, especially how strongly women’s visual patterns suggest they objectify other women.

“We do have a slightly different pattern for men than women, but when we looked at their overall dwell times – how long they focused on each body part – we find the exact same effects for both groups,” she said. “Women, we think, do it often for social comparison purposes.”

Yes they do. You just don't perceive it as ogling.

[BainsBane]

100. Because looking and ogling aren't the same thing

That you haven't figured something that basic out explains a great deal.

Also there is an obvious difference between giving someone a photo to look at compared to what happens in public with many people around and many different things to look at.

[NoOneMan]

102. Yep. The distinction can be quite subjective

Sometimes it boils down to unwanted objectifying gaze vs wanted objectifying gaze.

If you read that study, you'll notice the actual gaze patterns between women and men were similar. Therefore, the variable is how YOU feel about it.

when we looked at their overall dwell times – how long they focused on each body part – we find the exact same effects for both groups

Phew..you can prove anything with science!

[boston bean]

107. They were looking at a picture.

Real live living human beings know when they are being leered at in a sexual manner, ok? A picture doesn't have feelings, nor can they speak.

[NoOneMan]

111. "human beings know when they are being leered at"

No they don't. Two people can perceive the same gaze completely differently, dependent upon their moods, how they perceive the attractiveness of the observer, their cultures, etc. One woman's dreamy hunk is another's leering jerk. In both cases, that man doesn't know wtf he is to either because he isn't a mind reader.

[boston bean]

119. So, people who experience this are just a bunch of liars. got it.

[NoOneMan]

123. No. I didn't say you are lying about your perceptions of reality

[boston bean]

125. So, this shit doesn't happen, it's just a perception. ok.

[NoOneMan]

134. If that's what you want to believe, go have a crack at it

Ill live in the adult world, where we recognize their is a little wiggle room in between the two extreme truthy worldviews

[boston bean]

135. I live in a world where I understand this shit is real and happens.

I'm not talking about a glance. For chrissakes, did you read the OP, have you read other womens experiences. You, you, just know better than them, don't you.

[NoOneMan]

138. I wish you the best luck in getting yourself to a healthier and better place

[boston bean]

142. It is you who needs your wishes.

Take care.

[xulamaude]

147. It seems increasingly clear that the healthier and better 'place'

for women to be is living the life of a man wherein it's all hunky dory to tell women how out of touch they are with the adult (real) world.

Lucky you.

[mercuryblues]

177. wow

the participant were told to study a picture and SURPRISE! SURPRISE! they did. Only the women in the study focused on the face 1st.

[NoOneMan]

180. Write the researches a mean, nasty letter

[mercuryblues]

185. you'd better

write yourself a letter. The study doesn't mean what you say it means. Do you lie often or just when it suits you?

In the study, we asked a small sample of undergraduate men and women to look at women’s bodies with one of two goals: to evaluate their appearance or their personality.

Consistent with Spar’s accounts, objectifying gazes communicate to women that they are being seen as sex objects rather than people (Fredrickson & Roberts, 1997). Not surprisingly, the objectifying gaze has several negative consequences for women such as making them anxious about their appearance (Calogero, 2004), decreasing their work performance (Gervais, Vescio, & Allen, 2011), and making them feel like they should speak up less (Saguy, Quinn, Dovidio, & Pratto, 2010).


Finally, compared to female participants, male participants showed an increased tendency to initially exhibit the objectifying gaze and they regarded women with high (vs. average and low) ideal body shapes more positively, regardless of whether they were appearance-focused or personality-focused.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-013-0316-x

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/power-and-prejudice/201311/my-eyes-are-here

[BainsBane]

121. Well, since it's established that you falsified the findings

to prop up your nonsensical argument, your point fails badly.

[NoOneMan]

130. Its been established that women spend as much time staring at breasts as men

And until you can objectively distinguish between ogling and staring--in a manner that doesn't rely on the relative, subjective feelings of the observed--I'm not going to differentiate between the two any more than anyone else should.


Now if you are all done huffing and puffing and pounding your chest, we can see if anyone else believes in your fake outrage.

[boston bean]

136. I don't find women staring at my breasts. They might do so in a picture, but in real life

I've never ever had a woman ogle, objectify my breasts.

[NoOneMan]

140. The study speaks for itself

I'm sorry if you feel left out.

[boston bean]

146. I don't feel left out. no need to feel sorry for me.

The study barely speaks of anything, except that a woman looked at a picture as long as a male did. Whoopdee dooo.

[Matariki]

139. "wanted objectifying gaze"

I have to wonder how dense a person would be to write that. "wanted objectifying gaze". sheesh. Human beings just love being objectified! Just love having their autonomy ignored in favor of existing for the gratification of some damn fool.

[NoOneMan]

141. That's just my sense of humor talking there

Glad someone caught it.

[Matariki]

144. Your transparency page is pretty funny too!

[geek tragedy]

103. You just LIED about the study you're citing. They did not conclude it was ogling.

“Women, we think, do it often for social comparison purposes.”

That is NOT OGLING. Jesus, you just can't stand any serious discussion of issues women face, always gotta play dishonest equivalency games and other tricks out of the troll toolbox.

[NoOneMan]

106. No, the beholdees here are classifying one stare from another as ogling

The distinction is arbitrary. Its not about what the starer is doing, but how you feel about it.

[geek tragedy]

110. I'm sure all the women here greatly appreciate you men's rights types explaining what women

have experienced in life.

[NoOneMan]

115. Do men rights type passively dismiss any woman's posts as rad fem talking points?

Language is over-rated when we could all just flick boogers at eachother

[ohheckyeah]

79. Yes, I have, and I handled it.

I usually ask them if they found what they were looking for or saw something they liked. It embarrasses them and they walk away or turn away.

[ismnotwasm]

82. Of course

Many times, many stories. I could walk down the street to the drug store right now and probably come back with yet another story.



I've also had lovely compliments, that made me feel good and not uncomfortable--unfortunately not as often. I don't consider street harassment or leering a compliment

[Harmony Blue]

83. Old women make me feel uncomfortable all the time

when they wink at me as I handle their produce.

[xulamaude]

90. Are you a DU woman?

No? Go talk about creepy old ladies on your own thread.

[Harmony Blue]

98. This is the interneet

no on truly knows each others' gender we only have to take their word for it IMVHO.

[xulamaude]

105. I can usually tell the difference. nt

[Harmony Blue]

118. I wish I had your skills

because I can't.

[Demo_Chris]

88. Threads like this are a fantastic reminder...

Of just how VAST the difference is between the life experiences of men and women. It's been eye opening. Great thread, rec.

[justiceischeap]

172. I don't know if it's been touched on in this thread

but men and women are raised differently. Women are raised with subtle and not so subtle messages that we must be fearful because we're in some way inferior. Whether it be of a man overpowering us or not being taken seriously (again, usually by men), of being demeaned (again, usually by men), of being held in no higher esteem than someone to make dinner and babies and how we can't possibly be strong and think for ourselves... even in this day and age.

The plainest example I can think of is just look at toys for young children and you can see where it starts (hell, bringing infants home from the hospital with the divide with the pink and blue caps). Granted, parents, I think, are more open to allowing, girls at least, to play with "boy" toys but if a boy wants to play with a "girl" toy, then there must be something wrong with him because it's a "girl" toy. What does that tell boys and girls from an early age? Parents drill that message into their children from the moment they're out of the womb. Advertising furthers the message. Education pushes boys into the sciences and maths. Girls and women aren't dumb, we get the "message."

[PasadenaTrudy]

93. Yep

Started when I was 11...

[Whisp]

114. Creeped out mostly by but certainly not exclusive by older men many, many times.

Breasts grabbed in the stairwell at work, oggly boogly men looking up women's skirts and making sure the whole office saw what they were doing and the laughter, oh the laughter from the cretinous ugly fucks (at the time we had to wear skirts, dresses while the guys could come in in jeans or whatever the hell they wanted to wear). Dirty sexual jokes demeaning women was a daily occurence. Oh, don't be such a baby, it's only in fun!

No one to report too, because it was usually men in supervisory positions that were buds with the creepers. Feeling ashamed for having my body and confused as to why this harassment was part of life.

So just piss off to anyone who thinks this is normal and okay and happens to men too in the same way and same number.

[hfojvt]

183. I don't think anything in that first paragraph is okay

but that's all a ways past "just looking".

[bettyellen]

128. very common on the subways, as was copping a feel, ugh yikes.

too many times to list, and I honestly would not share details with the creepy anti-woman vibe that is okay these days on DU3. No fucking way. It is waaay too much of a hostile to women/ creep friendly space these days.
I am over it.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

137. Speaking as a guy in his fifties I wonder if this guy had a daughter or at least a niece or two.

I can't imagine he'd want some perv ogling them.

[geek tragedy]

145. He probably had similar thoughts about them too. nt

[Starry Messenger]

155. At least two notable times.

I just had this happen to me in Oct. up at the college campus. I was sitting in the commons lounge working on a laptop before a meeting and some man plumped himself down about 15 feet away and just stared deeply into my tits like he was birdwatching. Never even tilted his head or blinked. I had to get up and go outside after 15 minutes.

Another time was about 10 years ago: One guy was a student at the art center where I worked, I was wearing a sports bra under my shirt with heavy seams on it and he'd come right up to me and stare at the seams, from breast to breast like he was playing pong.

I am 43 years old and hardly some raving beauty, I wear clothes for an active work-life as a ceramics instructor. I have let the gray grow out in my hair and I can't fucking wait to be invisible to leering jackasses.

And for all the assholes who said "OMG CAN"T I JUST LOOOOKKK???11122", you have no fucking clue what it is like to be hounded away from a space by someone who aggressively stares into your body for several minutes.

[Ms. Toad]

160. I am struck by how it starts at the same age for most who are talking about it

(or at least our recognition of it starts at around the same age) - around 11.

My first conscious experience was around the same age 10-11. I was working on diving, and an adult male diver started staring at me - and shortly after that started fondling me in the pool me under the pretext of giving me tips on my diving.'

And -as for many others - it was the first of too many times to count. And, as at least one person mentioned, I made myself invisible by becoming fat for most of my adult life. It was a completely unconscious process until after I had lost 65 lbs and realized that I was looking for clothing to make me look fat when I was hiding into a situation which felt sexually threatening. My weight has gone up and down several times since then as I fight the habits I adopted to help me feel reasonably safe. At least the unconscious driver is now gone.

[MadrasT]

169. At the time of puberty?

That's what it was for me. I started getting breasts and hips and BOOM I was a target.

It is fucking SICK.

Actually the first incident was age 11, outside the train station in Amsterdam at 2 a.m., with my family, this CREEPY guy came on to me and started hitting on me IN FRONT OF MY PARENTS.

They were completely wigged out and I didn't figure out why until later.

[Ms. Toad]

171. The only age I've seen mentioned is 11 -

and puberty generally has a wider range of years than that.

And - I would also have expectd that there would be some age variation above the start of puberty for first noticing the ogling.

(And the swimming pool guy was in view of my parents - who also wondered why I suddenly lost interest in swimming and diving.)

[panader0]

168. As a man, I feel creeped out by bulge hunting women who stare at my "package".

Seriously, this BS on DU is creepy by itself. Men look at women, women look at men, men look at men, women look ay women.
Why were we born with eyes?!

[BKH70041]

174. The title sounded like it was advertising a calendar.

Glad to see it wasn't for many reasons.

[Harmony Blue]

176. I think you should put your flame suit on

big mistake.

[geek tragedy]

189. Only a certain kind of man is whining about

this discussion. Fortunately, they are a discredited minority.

[redqueen]

194. Glad that was hidden. Can't believe this one was allowed to stand

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4221211

[geek tragedy]

196. Telling that juries getting 1/2 right is a relief.

6-0 hide is a fairly strong statement.

Men who use the word 'rape' to score points against women in debate remind me of this book I've read:

[MineralMan]

197. It was unanimous. Results below:

At Tue Dec 24, 2013, 10:21 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

I'm pretty sure that was Warren Montangue
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4221112

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

This reply is way over the top, from mentioning a DUer to attacking the OP by claiming that she is trying to make all men feel like shit. This usurping post should be hidden, in my opinion.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Dec 24, 2013, 10:27 AM, and voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: That was definitely an attack against the OP.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: This poster appears to want to get the boot...I say show them the door
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm sick of seeing this shit, from both sides. Enough, already.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Wow this poster does not stop.

Thank you.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

182. Overreaction score to today's topic: 6.0

[Solly Mack]

188. Yes.

Since childhood. Numerous times.

[azmom]

195. I'm in my 50's now

When I reflect on my childhood there is lots of sadness around this topic because mainly I grew up scared to death of men. I felt so unsafe in my own neighborhood. I could not walk to the store without getting whistled at or being starred at. I remember being very scared all the time. This topic was not something spoken about back then so I remember being scarred to death but not really understanding why? I'm sad for the little girl I was back then.