If it idiotic to talk about what Women think

[cthulu2016]

The idea that "DU Women" hold certain views that are distinct from those held by "DU men" is insane.

It is patently false. There are no issues on which male and female DUers disagree, as categories.

And the sort of bigoted mentality that would lead anyone to think (or hope) there are such issues leads to trouble.

Duh.

Self-righteous bigotry is not a problem when it is misdirected. It is a problem in itself. It is a pathology.

The self-righteous bigot who happens to be right is better than the self-righteous bigot who happens to be wrong, but it is a "cat shit versus dog shit" sort of comparison.


Happy Holidays.

[NoOneMan]

1. Cat shit always wins

Always. Happy Holidays

[JVS]

2. Re: a "cat shit versus dog shit" sort of competition.

Are you letting the perfect be the enemy of the good or the merely odious be the enemy of the absolutely intolerable?

[boston bean]

3. When what is being purported women think, is steeped in bigotry

well, that's a whole different issue now, isn't it?

[seattledo]

55. I agree

These men here telling us what to think is disgusting.

[jschurchin]

4. I agree 100%

I'm a 51 year old Man who has been married twice and I still don't know what women think. That's why I've given up talking about what they think. I will never know, so why waste my breath.

[MineralMan]

5. It's not a matter of sex or gender.

None of us knows what any other person thinks. It is that simple. We cannot. Often, we even have difficulty saying what we think, ourselves.

The best we can do is to try to understand ourselves. With others, we can often, through experience, predict how they will react or what they will say, but that's based on a personal relationship.

To say that one doesn't know how "men" or "women" think is silly. Each man or woman is an individual, and we know very few individuals well enough to even begin to understand their thought processes.

One person at a time.

[uppityperson]

7. Thank you, well put.

[Feral Child]

12. Excellent observation.

Unfortunately neither "side" is going to listen because you speak of "thought" and these people are posting from emotion.

Meanwhile, some of us are busy trashing threads so we can find something worthwhile to read....

[MineralMan]

13. I just skip over threads that don't interest me.

I never understood the need to "trash" them. To each his or her own, I suppose.

[Feral Child]

65. That seems easy, usually.

Yesterday and today there were so many of the same they were a real distraction. Also, it made my inner-grandma want to put on her thimble and crack some heads.

Not enough corners in this room...

[treestar]

42. Exactly

All the generalized statements are just wrong. Women are not a monolith. Neither are men. There are varying degrees of opinions. Or we wouldn't have Phyllis Schafly.

There are people who want more control of their relationships, so they hope there is a formula to follow. If I just do such and such, I will get the women I want for however long I want them. Just not realistic.

[G_j]

58. well said nt

[Kurovski]

63. +1

That sounds like that "common sense" thing. Or "reality". You know, the thing that gets buried by all nature of propaganda and learned assumptions.

[Iggo]

9. I'm a man, and I know what women think.

I know it because I listen to them and believe them when they tell me what they think and how they feel.

Wasn't always that way, but there you go.

[liberal_at_heart]

16. but that is only true for each individual woman. Not all women think alike.

[Iggo]

24. Never said I know what all women think.

However, I do know what every woman who tells me what she thinks thinks.

It's no secret. Women say every day what they think and how they feel, and it's my view that the people who say they don't know what women think just aren't paying attention.

[Orrex]

6. There have recently been a great many posts dictating what men think

Eye-for-an-eye doesn't make it right, but it illuminates why each "side" might be inclined to continue telling the other "side" how it thinks.

[liberal_at_heart]

8. +1

[HappyMe]

10. Yup. There's enough of this to go around.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

11. +2

It's the utmost in arrogance for one to say how another thinks.

[Grateful for Hope]

15. +1

[Vashta Nerada]

81. Yep.

Those posts are started to incite a response. They're set up to troll the forum. Look at how divisive they made the site yesterday.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Oh No! The ducky thing is winding down and this is next?

[Glassunion]

18. We could rotate back to the daily porn threads instead.

Maybe we should have a vote.

[TreasonousBastard]

22. Good idea.

[Glassunion]

30. Who would have thunk a week ago, the word "duck" would be used to trash threads?

[TreasonousBastard]

38. It never ends around here...

I forget the name of the guy who postulated that the extent of a discussion is inversely proportional to its importance.

He was right.

(And there's a new poll in the Lounge.)

[HappyMe]

25. Sshhhh!

Sorry to shush you but....that would make the baby Jesus cry and the Festivus pole rust and fall down. Or something dramatic.

[Glassunion]

32. Heh... Heh....

You said "pole"

[HappyMe]

36. ...

Well played.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

82. O gawd, maybe we could all get an education

about rosebud nasties again.

[Glassunion]

83. I don't even want to know what that is.

[Jester Messiah]

17. I think there are lessons to be drawn here.

1. There needs to be another topic added to the "guns, religion, etc" list that is verboten for GD.
2. If you dare speak a word out of line, the "offended" will trample each other in a mad dash to the "report" link. Opposing views will not be tolerated.

Honestly this whole debacle makes me despair of politics in general.

[kcr]

20. Great

Then women's equality can't be discussed on a supposedly liberal website. The trolls win.

[Jester Messiah]

21. I tried discussing it. I got several posts reported & hidden for my efforts.

There's no interest in a discussion. The only interest is in control.

[kcr]

23. I don't know what your posts said so I can't comment on them.

But these fights start because trolls pick on the feminists. The better solution is to ban the trolls. But this is the new DU. Community standards are supposed to take care of this. It's working brilliantly

[Jester Messiah]

26. See, this is what I'm talking about.

Is disagreeing with a feminist about something automatically "trolling?" I mean, if I say "I think that's a bit much" or "Your response goes too far" or "You presume too much", or gods forbid "that's ridiculous" and the feminist comes back with heat, and I fight my corner, that's trolling?

[kcr]

28. Is disagreeing with a feminist automatically trolling? No.

But that's not what's going on.

[Jester Messiah]

31. See, I disagree.

You'd think I'd have learned by now.

But really, it just gives one pause to think. It's one thing to recognize that there are crazies and zealots on both sides of the political aisle, but this debacle really drives it home. Never before have I been so tempted to just declare "a pox on both houses."

[kcr]

35. I know. Both sides, both sides!

The media loves to spin things this way, too. To claim to be "fair and balanced".

[Jester Messiah]

40. And that's usually bullshit.

But if you compare it, on one side you've got the fundie goddballs who tell you what you can and can't do or say because God said so, and on the other you've got firebrand feminists who tell you what you can and can't do or say because their ideology says so.

And in the middle there's me, who says do and say as you damn well please, and be damned to anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.

[kcr]

44. Oh, it's usually bullshit except in this case because it's feminists?

No. I don't think so. See, right there, your "firebrand feminists" with your completely inaccurate portrayal of what they are? The problem, right there.

But your post and my response to it? Just two neutral parties, duking it out! Not what it truly is. DU is becoming a joke.

[Jester Messiah]

50. That it certainly is.

I think I'm probably done with this place. I'm sure I won't be missed, and it's mutual. If the choice comes down to "agree with OP or GTFO", I choose GTFO.

[kcr]

51. Oh well

Can't say I'm going to shed a tear over someone who says things like "firebrand feminists" and has an entirely inaccurate picture of them. Goodbye! If every single poster grew equally frustrated over the lack of tolerance of that and left? DU would improve 100 %

[Jester Messiah]

53. Yes, if only everyone thought the exact same way you do, what a wonderful world it would be.

In any case, good job alienating potential allies. This really has been an eye-opening day or so.

[kcr]

54. Heaven forbid we alienate feminist haters.

Hm, maybe we should reach out to the Duck Dynasty guy while we're at it?

[kcr]

57. Right.

Someone who referred to feminists as "firebrand" had nothing against them. Uh huh. But I'm suppose to be afraid of alienating you? Please.

[Jester Messiah]

59. Do you know what "Firebrand" even means?

Firebrand: A person who is passionate about a particular cause, typically inciting change and taking radical action.

Now how is that bad, in and of itself?

[kcr]

60. Oh, you meant it in a flattering way, of course

except when you put it in context. YOu said this: "firebrand feminists who tell you what you can and can't do or say because their ideology says so. "

[Jester Messiah]

61. I meant it in its dictionary definition

of which you were apparently unaware.

[kcr]

62. Well, who could tell the way you were using it?

Your idea that DU feminists just go around telling everyone else what to do and think is telling. That goes right back to my whole point. Trolls stir the shit. Feminists react. Oh, look! The feminists telling everyone what to think! They're awful.

Curious what you think feminist ideology is. I'd be willing to be that might reveal a lot, too.

[Jester Messiah]

64. It generally only means the one thing.

Unless you thought I was accusing feminists of wandering around with actual torches. :eyeroll:

And that whole thread about "male gaze" and how men shouldn't be allowed to look at women, as if we're all just rapists-in-waiting? That seems to sum up the ideology pretty well. "You may look at that which we allow you to look, and you are not allowed to think of any woman in a sexual way without explicit permission, which may be revoked at any time up to and including after the fact."

[kcr]

66. Do you know what brought about that thread?

For one thing, no one is saying men shouldn't be allowed to look at women. No one. That's what I'm talking about, distorting the position in order to attack it and make feminists look bad. The whole thing started when someone posted a thread about a youtube video drawing attention to violence against women in India. It was made on the one year anniversary of a rape case that got huge international publicity. I mean, how dare anyone bring that up? On DU, even? But they did. This "gender war" is the result. Not men shouldn't look at women.

[Jester Messiah]

67. Then you're saying the whole "ogling" discussion didn't happen?

Funny, could've sworn I saw a few posts on the subject. Anyway, a lot of those feminists didn't need any help looking bad. They came to rumble, their posts were of the smash-mouth variety, and when called on their incivility the response was usually something along the lines of "I don't have to be civil to YOU."

But oddly enough, when responded to in kind, such responses were alerted and hidden. Smacks of a double standard.

[kcr]

68. No, I'm not saying that

I'm saying it happened because trolls distorted a position. There aren't a group of women on DU going around attacking men and telling them they can't look at women.

[Jester Messiah]

69. Oh come on.

As if the same four or five usernames aren't popping up in every GenderWar thread and tag-teaming everyone who disagrees or even just wants to call a cease-fire?

[kcr]

70. No, they aren't

Sorry. This is the same thing that happens every time. Someone dares, on a progressive board of all places, to post a feminist post. A real one, not one that someone who has a cartoonish idea of what feminism is, like men can't look at women. Trolls respond to stir shit up. Your characterization of it is false.

[Jester Messiah]

71. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

That's the idea of feminism that this whole debacle has conveyed. If it's wrong, then it's because the representatives of feminism are failing to represent it well. The smashmouth attitude only serves to reinforce all the worst stereotypes of feminists, and you have only yourselves to blame.

[kcr]

72. The whole debacle conveyed it

because that's what the trolls were saying. Not one feminist said men shouldn't look at women. Not one. We have only ourselves to blame if trolls show up and troll us?

[Jester Messiah]

73. You weren't trolled, you were engaged. As in debate.

And when challenged, you responded with malice, snark, derision, and disdain. You can't control the former, but the latter is all on you.

[kcr]

74. Oh, engaged. Well, excuse me.

Yes, it's true. At this point I'm pretty angry about the whole situation and I do get a bit snarky when I get mad. But make no mistake. It's trolling. I'm not saying everyone involved is a troll. I think many just see "gender war, woo hoo!" and don't really give a rip. But the shit stirrers are trolls. They don't mean to engage. Anyone who saw that original thread and watched that video, and took away from it "Men shouldn't look at women?" They weren't being honest and wanting to engage. Bullshit.

[Jester Messiah]

76. Well, that's your opinion.

I've said my piece and I'm done. Goodbye.

[kcr]

78. That's right, you said earlier you were leaving!

Goodbye again!

[HappyMe]

29. To be fair, they give as good as they get.

Poo is flung from both corners.

[kcr]

33. Actually, I wouldn't call that a fair assessment.

That is not an accurate picture at all. It's classic trolling. The only fair thing to say about it is it isn't being ignored. It's spin to twist that into both sides are poo flinging. But that's what trolling is about, isn't it? Attack to start the shit, and then everyone can wring their hands about how awful everyone is being.

[HappyMe]

41. I read some of those threads.

Call it spin, whatever. Crap and attacks were flung from both sides.

If a person posts an OP, they shouldn't expect a bunch of yes and nodding in agreement replies. It rarely happens here with any subject. Disagreement isn't trolling.

[kcr]

43. No, they shouldn't

And when people troll, they shouldn't expect people to just ignore it, either. The claims that it's just two neutral parties slugging it out, however, is false.

[HappyMe]

45. I said nothing about neutral.

Neither side of this argument is neutral - actually neither side of any argument is neutral.

Both sides do a good job of trolling- with the desired effect of a knock down, drag out 200+ post shit fest.
Victory! Another awesome gender war!

[kcr]

46. Yes, your argument is an attempt to make it neutral

Both sides are doing it, both sides are the same. You want to ignore or cover up what is actually happening. Neutralize it. Yeah! Another awesome gender war! Ignore what really happened. What causes this. The fact that there is a group that targets and attacks another, then points their finger at them as the cause. And too many people buy it. At best, they just dismiss it as a gender war. I saw one post that wants to make the discussion verboten.

[HappyMe]

47. lol! Okay.

You want to ignore or misunderstand what I am saying. So here we are.

Yes, yes I'm wrong, you are a feminist and are always right and put upon. There are 2 groups that attack one another. You denying that it happens doesn't make it so.


Enjoy your holiday.

[kcr]

48. Lololol!

OMGZ the gender wars! They're so silly, fiddle dee dee!

[HappyMe]

49. They are.

Silly and pointless.

We have women telling men what to think, men telling women what to think and women telling other women what to think. Rinse and repeat.

[Jester Messiah]

52. Correct, it all comes down to control.

They want to control what you do, say, and think. And if you don't toe the line, you'll be silenced. On this site anyway.

[Ken Burch]

27. You are NOT a victim of repression. Stop acting like one.

This is a pro-feminist site. You knew that when you signed on here. If you are taking a position that sounds like(or is)sexist, that position will be called out. That's just how it is here.

[Jester Messiah]

37. I love how people take it upon themselves to declare who may be a victim and who not.

I am pro-equal-rights for ALL minds, regardless of what bodies they inhabit. I am vehemently pro-freedom. That means I will not submit to have my words and deeds controlled or judged by anyone, feminists included. To wit: they're my eyes and I'll point them in any direction I please.

[Ken Burch]

86. You can always point your eyes where you want.

And you can expect the responses you've been getting when your eyes are pointed at those who don't wish to have them pointed their way.

Being told not to leer isn't persecution. It's just people setting the boundaries they have the right to set. It's not asking too much to expect you to respect other people and their boundaries.

[Orrex]

39. Do men have any authority to identify sexism when they see it?

[Ken Burch]

85. Being told not to leer at women isn't sexism.

Men can identify ACTUAL sexism, but this isn't it. And men are almost never the victims of sexism, just as white people are almost never the victims of racism(and just as those of us who are heterosexuals haven't ever really experienced anything remotely compable to homophobia or gay-bashing, and just those of use who are Christian in THIS country have virtually never experienced genuine religious persecution in the way that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Wiccans have experienced it).

OK?

[badtoworse]

19. "cat shit versus dog shit" sort of comparison.

I'm going to have to remember that one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. " The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer,

The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is 'What does a woman want?' Sigmund Freud

[grahamhgreen]

75. I know what my women want, lol. No wonder he was so hung up about sex.... geez!

[MineralMan]

77. Siggy should have asked. That's how you find out what a woman thinks.

Of course, you only find out what that individual woman thinks. To find out what all women think, you have to ask them all.

On DU, we're lucky. Lots of women here say what they think about many things. That's a good thing. If you read enough posts by individual women who are DUers, you can get a pretty good idea of what they think.

Like many man, Sigmund Freud appears to have believed that there is some sex-linked though pattern shared by all women. I think that Sigmund Freud didn't think about that long enough. I've read all of Freud's seminal works, and it is clear from them that he had a typically patriarchal view of women. That's not surprising, given the period in which he lived and wrote. But, he was wrong.

Women are not indistiguishable from each other. Each is unique, and each has a world view, a political view, and many other views that go into their thought processes. JUST. LIKE. MEN. We are all unique.

[CTyankee]

79. It is baffling to me why some here cannot understand that simple solution that you so well

just articulated. Women are people! Wow, whatta concept.

Thanks, MM.

[MineralMan]

80. My pleasure.

It is simple, huh?