Do Conservatives *really* think Liberals are 'incurable'...?

[Oscarmonster13]

(First, I have to give you the disclaimer before you all freak out and think I am a troll. I have been a liberal hippie my whole life and have actually asked my own father to leave my home for spewing Glenn Beckkk's rants...BUT I have a sinful guilty pleasure, and it is reading the conspiracy forums. Well, I soon realized that while the woowoo stuff is entertaining, most of the people there are truly bigoted, RW Christian, Obama haters and worse... So while I don't pretend to be one of them or post there, I just avoid the obvious threads that scream HATE! and stick to the freaky-deaky stuff about the comets, mayan calendar etc... Like I said, it is a guilty pleasure )


Anyway - so I popped in there this evening and there was this discussion, obviously spurred by family gatherings, about "is it possible to reform a Liberal?"
The responses were shocking to me, I guess I am more naieve than I thought. They basically see us as purely emotional, fact-avoiding freaks, moochers & freeloaders, who have no hope to change and who will narc out conservatives (to whom I have NO idea).

Now I have seen us discussing similar ideas here sometimes... but NO WAY have I seen the pure vitriol that I do from the other side of the coin. These people scare me. They really DO equate liberalism w/socialism & communism and think we are severely dangerous in turn.

I guess my question is...how the heck do we get past the polarity? And how in the heck do you guys deal with extremeism in your families or circles of friends? ... aren't we liberals the more tolerant of the two sides??

I don't want to pollute DU with the link, but I will provide it if you guys think it adds to the discussion...

[winter is coming]

1. You're unlikely to get past the polarity as long as they remain in their Fox bubble.

The ones who have been smacked in the face by reality may realize they've been duped when they encounter adversity, but most of them either can not or will not imagine what life is like for others. Lacking that imagination/empathy, they'll pretty much believe anything they're told often enough.

[Oscarmonster13]

2. I think empathy is a HUGE part of it

My conservative sister and B-i-L are both very comfortable and have never known hardship. While I have struggled most of my entire adult life...but of course somehow I am "milking" it and they are the good guys for going to church and donating to charity...but have they ever helped ME? no way!

I have learned to avoid certain subjects and not incite them... because they are set in stone with their beliefs.

It's just so strange, how fixed each side of the polarity is. I think our tendency toward empathy and tolerance actually makes us better targets for them, because they have so much hate and anger they just feed on our 'showing weakness'

[Katashi_itto]

10. Agree, personally, I view they as basely human

[liberal_at_heart]

3. the answer to getting past the polarization is for both sides to see each other as

human beings. Sometimes this means the more tolerant, more reasonable of the two have to take the first step of seeing the other as human. And it has to be a truly unmotivated act. You can't do it with the intention of trying to convert them. We see that coming a mile away, and so do they. Just treat people with dignity and respect. It's like being a teacher. You may only reach one person in your whole life. You may never reach any of them in your life, but at least you will have been a good person. Most good, decent people who treat others with respect touch many people's lives and are remembered and loved by many when they pass on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Both sides do it

because of the incredible polarization. Both sides (not all mind you) have created cartoon characters and enemies out of the other side, and stolen their humanity. It is dangerous. I have spoken of this here in the past. I have no idea if this will stop short of shooting.

[JaneyVee]

16. Both sides don't do it. Our side doesn't have a Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.

Our side dislikes the actual conservative ideology. Their side dislike a fake made up caricature of liberalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I am sorry to disagree

Last edited Thu Dec 26, 2013, 02:53 PM - Edit history (3)

Sorry. It is dangerous.

And sorry but people on your side, I don't take sides, love to sing things like "I hate Republicans" and talk of them as insane. Is the echo chamber as well developed? Yes and no, it is good enough you never have to leave it to be challenged. But not as highly developed as having a publisher (Regnery press), or a 24/7 "news" channel.

Hell, attend a few party conventions (on both sides) and you will hear mirror arguments to the nature of the other side. I am likely a commie to even you guys, but this is what I get to do for a living, and I wear my politics not, so both sides actually sort of trust us locally.

[Aerows]

19. "stolen their humanity"

Horrible way to put it, but the stark and real truth for many. I agree with you, it is dangerous.

[gtar100]

5. The vitriol is really bad towards us. But I must confess, I have no hope for them changing except

under the circumstances of a personal tragedy. Only when they themselves are in a position of great need (such as a job loss or medical conditions) do their minds open up to the values Liberals care about. I don't believe there is anything we can say that will convince them until it can be related to something personal that is going on. But we should not be silent because their bubble of idiocy depends on nobody challenging them. And I can guarantee that there is nothing in this universe that will change my mind to embrace conservatism.

[woo me with science]

6. The two parties are separately propagandized to hate each other

by the One Percent who have purchased both of them. Partisan hatred is used to keep us divided and unable to unite against what the corporate One Percent in both parties are doing to us. We are taught to think of every decision in terms of winning for our team or preventing the other team from from winning, rather than what is right or wrong, or good for humanity.

Deep, reflexive partisan hatred and partisan loyalty are constantly stoked and reinforced in us through corporate propaganda dividing us into our teams. It's critical to the One Percent that our emotional loyalties to our Red and Blue Teams (and willingness to circle the wagons and defend *anything* Our Team does, for fear of helping the Other Team) is fierce and reflexive and defensive enough to override our loyalty to the Constitution and the fundamental civil protections that both parties are destroying before our eyes.

This is the game that needs to be exposed and rejected, resoundingly, by all Americans.

The big corporate lie that is told to both sides is that the Other Side is getting everything they want and are responsible for all the problems in government. We are separately propagandized in that way to keep us from realizing that the two parties are actually working together and exploiting all of us.

Corporate Republicans lie to their base and betray it just like corporate Democrats do. Just as corporate Democrats lie and pretend to value traditional Democratic policy goals like social safety nets and public education and protecting the environment, corporate Republicans lie to their base and pretend to value traditional conservative positions like small government and individual liberty.

Then the corporatists in BOTH parties get into office and support everything nobody but the one percent wants: a mammoth, predatory corporate government, a surveillance state, and destruction/corporatization of social safety nets, schools, and the environment.

Nobody is happy with the government we have. Republicans are as angry and unrepresented as we are. NONE of us are being represented. And the corporate thieves control both parties. This is exactly how the one percent keep their predatory agenda going from administration to administration. They can always count on half the country to circle the wagons and defend the indefensible when it is being committed by their/our "team."

__________________________________________

We are supposed to recoil and vomit...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2320291

This insanity, this GARBAGE, this deliberate partisan political PSYCHOSIS has to stop.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=146626


.

[Scuba]

11. Excellent post, as are the two others to which you linked. Thanks. I've no answers though. Sorry.

[Caretha]

21. You said a mouthful

Especially this part:

We are taught to think of every decision in terms of winning for our team or preventing the other team from from winning, rather than what is right or wrong, or good for humanity.

Hell, I find I'm almost as equally angry with Democratic supporters now a days, as I am with Republicans.

There really is a "right" & a "wrong". Why is that so hard to understand?

[Oscarmonster13]

7. thank you all for your answers...

I will have to come back in the morning to reply properly (rum & coke tonite ) and kick for the morning crowd ... see you then, Merry Christmas to my Liberal Thinking Friends you are more of a family to me than you know, DUers

[Wounded Bear]

8. A lot of it is classic projection...

They paint us with a brush that applies to them, and attack us for what they know in their hearts they want, too.

Shit, nobody wants to get up and go to work and make a living, but to them, we are lazy for feeling that, while they suppress the feeling and take on a cloak of false nobility because they 'buck up' and go 'cheerfully.' I was taught somewhere along the way that complaining about shit you can't change is a waste of time and reflects bad on you. They carry it to a high art sometimes.

Frankly, I'm tired of RW whining. Any more, I just think (but don't actually say often enough) why don't you just STFU and do something. Of course, they're conflicted because the only solutions to the major problems of today's world are 'liberal' or 'progressive' and thus unthinkable. Meanwhile the leadership of the Repub Party and Big Business, as well as some 3rd Way Dems have no interest in solving anything, especially something they are milking for obscene profits. They prefer we hoi polloi continue to fight amonst ourselves while they snicker all the way to the bank.

[Notafraidtoo]

9. Its Very frustrating

Everything they love about living in America has to do with Progressive thinking, I wish they could have a section of the country to live this insanity they claim to love, it wouldn't take them long to run for the border of their Aynd Rand paradise. I hate the fact they benefit so much from policy's they voted against, i want them to live a life with out the 1000 of things liberals brought to society that most Americans may take for granted but they down right complain they exists while receiving the benefits, its sickening.

I want them to feel and live what they support. because right now they don't, they just bitch they don't have a third world lifestyle.

[Victor_c3]

12. As far as facts go...

I believe that we form our beliefs then justify our beliefs by the selective use of facts. So yes, while conservatives like to think of themselves as fact based thinkers, liberals like to think of themselves as fact based thinkers as well (at least I do). The opposing side always says "you're not looking at the facts!" but you are. You're just looking only at the facts that justify your beliefs and discarding the rest.

To be able to convert anyone, you would somehow need to get them to either get them to discard their own facts that they use to justify their beliefs or present them with the possibility that they aren't seeing the whole picture and slowly convince them the validity of your own facts.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here ...

So can I be reformed into becoming conservative? Probably about as likely as a conservative could be conformed into being a liberal.

[patricia92243]

13. Several times, I have read where people have a dispositon toward "their" side of politics (life) and

seek out things that verify those beliefs. So, the answer is no, neither side can be "cured."

[JaneyVee]

14. Funny thing is, is that they don't hate Liberals, they hate the

Fake made up caricature of liberalism that the ACTUAL nut jobs in their party and in their media have created. Truth is, THEY are the fact avoiding moochers and free loaders, all the state statistics point to these facts. But it won't penetrate their skulls.

[JHB]

15. Some of this is simply baked-in...

Many of the tropes have a long history. These days there's an entire conservative messaging apparatus that reinforces a groupthink. In times past it was simple regionalism. Either way, it creates a bubble where people are breathing and rebreathing their own hot air.

I like to use this (conservative) political cartoon from 1860. The characterization of Lincoln and his supporters would be at home at any Tea Party rally -- where it'd be used to describe Democrats.

“People who just want stuff”: 1860

See if you recognize the playbook:

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2003674590/

"The Republican Party Going to the Right House"

Lincoln rides in on a (fence) rail, carried by Horace Greely (anti-slavery editor of the New York Tribune), leading his followers into a lunatic asylum.
GREELY: "Hold on to me Abe, and we'll go in here by the unanimous consent of the people."
LINCOLN: "Now my friends I'm almost in, and the millennium is going to begin, so ask what you will and it shall be granted."

Younger Woman: "Oh! what a beautiful man he is, I feel a passionate attraction' every time I see his lovely face."
Bearded Man: "I represent the free love element, and expect to have free license to carry out its principles."
Man with trim beard and hat: "I want religion abolished and the book of Mormon made the standard of morality."
Caricatured black man: "De white man hab no rights dat cullud pussons am bound to spect' I want dat understood."
Older woman: "I want womans rights enforced, and man reduced in subjection to her authority."
Scruffy man with bottle: "I want everybody to have a share of everybody elses property."
Barefoot man: "I want a hotel established by government, where people that aint inclined to work, can board free of expense, and be found in rum and tobacco."
Seedy top-hat man: " I want guaranteed to every Citizen the right to examine every other citizen's pockets without interruption by Policemen."
Man at the end: "I want all the stations houses burned up, and the M.P.s killed, so that the bohoys can run with the machine and have a muss when they please."

Let’s go down the list, shall we?:
Supported by "liberal media": Check
Liberals will embark on profligate giveaways to THOSE PEOPLE? Check.
Flighty, emotional, entranced by charisma/celebrity? Check.
People conservatives consider sexual deviants? Check.
People conservatives consider religious deviants? Check (and how ironic, this particular turn).
Grasping minorities after special rights? Check.
"Feminazis"? Check.
There's a vast army of layabouts, terrorists, and outright thieves who want to take your hard-earned stuff? Check, check, check, and check.

A hundred and fifty years later, and they're playing the same tune.

Liberals aren't immune from it, but we don't have an apparatus with the same raqe-stoking and insistence that everything outside of preferred sources is lies, LIES! (and certainly not anything near the same funding.) For instance, FOX actually does what conservatives paint "liberal media" as doing: talking points promulgated from on high to thump a drumbeat for a party line.

[Oscarmonster13]

24. wow, great find!

...and scary how it still rings true today

[rrneck]

17. An interesting video.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt studies the five moral values that form the basis of our political choices, whether we're left, right or center. In this eye-opening talk, he pinpoints the moral values that liberals and conservatives tend to honor most.

The book's good too.

[TBF]

18. Think about who has a vested interest

in keeping two sides at each others throats while they rob the country blind. That's your answer.

[Oscarmonster13]

30. totally agree

I am actually of the mind that both sides in congress/govt are just as corrupt, we need more than a third party, we need a freaking revolution! Occupy could have been so much bigger, but the PTB would not let it happen, because they knew it was all about removing the corporate/money hold on our economy and government...
They proved to us who really calls the shots when they attacked Occupy with DHS. It's actually scary how much control we are under, even in a 'free' country...

Now the conservatives I guess think somehow we are coming for their guns and their liberties etc. What they don't get is that the average person, whether liberal or conservative, is nothing more than a pawn to the corporate overlords. The polarity is just a manipulation to get us to think we are enemies, rather than see who is really pulling the levers behind the curtain.

[treestar]

20. It's because we are thinking people and they are not

They project their own feelings onto us.

There is a bigger chance they will covert over, as reality is more likely to hit them in the face.

[Orsino]

23. Well, the ones who feel the need for reinforcement like to keep saying such things.

The facts are not on their side, they are losing most of the culture wars, and no one likes having to admit to being wrong. Sometimes, over-the-top rhetoric is just the sound of defeat.

[ananda]

25. I really wish that liberalism were incurable.

At least it is for me, thank goodness.

[Egalitarian Thug]

26. We all tend to judge others by ourselves. This is sanity's greatest weakness.

Sane people do not believe that wishful thinking creates reality, yet this is the entire basis for their world view. They know themselves to be purely emotional, fact-avoiding freaks, moochers & freeloaders, and so they believe everybody else shares their sickness.

[pretzel4gore]

27. the only thing you needa hear from rightwingers

is the KKKKRACKKK! of baseball bats across their MT heads

[Lint Head]

28. I have it in my family. I don't deal with it and I don't care what conservatives think.

They are adults and if they don't have enough morals or values to care about the poor and unfortunate they can go to hell.

[TeamPooka]

29. I'm not sure conservatives are teachable so we're even. nt