Why does Pope Francis inspire more anger around here than President Obama?

[DerekG]

Nearly every Pope thread I've perused has a fairly balanced set of responses, with optimism/intrigue/curiosity on one end and condemnation on the other. "Misogynist" and "bigot" appear often (and in some respects, justifiably).

My question: Why doesn't Obama get the same treatment? Surely his misdeeds (e.g., drone bombings, presiding over an Orwellian surveillance state, his TPP stealth-advocacy) warrant similar knee-jerk reactions? Why aren't we seeing "murderer" or "plunderer" charges in message texts?

To put it another way: When did social-issue conservatism become more intolerable than economic/militarist conservatism?

(Please note: I despise the Catholic Church and have consequently adopted a "wait-and-see" attitude regarding the current Pope, so please don't designate me an apologist.)

[el_bryanto]

1. My opinion is that it is a small number of DU Anti-Catholic Cranks who make it their

mission to upset any post in which the Pope is praised. You see the same names showing up again and again. Posts agreeing with praising the pope usually outnumber those cranks 2 or 3 to 1.

Bryant

[lame54]

5. I'm an anti-catholic crank...

and i love this pope

[cbdo2007]

17. It is the anti-religion cranks more than just the anti-catholic ones I think.

For people who are so adamant about needing proof of everything, they sure make a lot of assumptions. lol

[JoePhilly]

2. Are you new here?

The President is attacked almost endlessly here.

[treestar]

4. +1

That was my first thought too!

[DerekG]

6. Not in the same vein

Rarely will you find a poster who reduces Obama to a one-word smear; the tone is that of disenchantment and resignation rather than outright hostility.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Actually, just about anyone or anything you can imagine...

is attacked here. Start a thread about your kid and the Tooth Fairy and it won't be long...

Although, admittedly, the Pope and the President get more than their share.

[Number23]

32. I'm reading this OP and wondering the same thing!! I don't know what's worse

the fact that this person thinks it's okay to refer to President Obama as a "murderer" on a web site whose purpose is to support the Democratic party and its members or the fact that he appears to have missed the uncountable number of posts from people who do absolutely nothing but criticize the man, day in and out.

Amazing.

[Number23]

33. I'm reading this OP and wondering the same thing!! I don't know what's worse

the fact that this person thinks it's okay to refer to President Obama as a "murderer" on a web site whose purpose is to support the Democratic party and its members or the fact that he appears to have missed the uncountable number of posts from people who do absolutely nothing but criticize the man, day in and out.

Amazing.

Edit: And post #25 highlights exactly what we've been saying perfectly.

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, not Catholic Underground

[dipsydoodle]

7. That doesn't account for the mix of people here.

.

[Progressive dog]

9. When President Obama becomes head of a religion

instead of a country, you get to compare him to the Pope.

[Chrom]

10. It is interesting. The same people who defend Obama on everything, just HATE the Pope because ??

well, I don't know because even LGBT magazine The Advocate can see that what he brings forth is very positive conversation in the world...

"Pope Francis is leader of 1.2 billion Roman Catholics all over the world. There are three times as many Catholics in the world than there are citizens in the United States. Like it or not, what he says makes a difference. Sure, we all know Catholics who fudge on the religion's rules about morality. There's a lot of disagreement, about the role of women, about contraception, and more. But none of that should lead us to underestimate any pope's capacity for persuading hearts and minds in opening to LGBT people, and not only in the U.S. but globally.

The remaining holdouts for LGBT acceptance in religion, the ones who block progress in the work left to do, will more likely be persuaded by a figure they know. In the same way that President Obama transformed politics with his evolution on LGBT civil rights, a change from the pope could have a lasting effect on religion....

As pope, he has not yet said the Catholic Church supports civil unions. But what Francis does say about LGBT people has already caused reflection and consternation within his church. The moment that grabbed headlines was during a flight from Brazil to Rome. When asked about gay priests, Pope Francis told reporters, according to a translation from Italian, "If someone is gay and seeks the Lord with good will, who am I to judge?"

The brevity of that statement and the outsized attention it got immediately are evidence of the pope's sway. His posing a simple question with very Christian roots, when uttered in this context by this man, "Who am I to judge?" became a signal to Catholics and the world that the new pope is not like the old pope."

[SidDithers]

12. But we all know that Republicans R Zombies...

and that the Ghost of Huey Long is who we should really listen to.

Sid

[hrmjustin]

30. .

[NYC Liberal]

13. Read what he said about not judging. There's a condition: IF we "seek the Lord with good will".

That means no sex, no intimacy, no dating or marriage. And no fighting for our rights: he followed that statement by condemning the "gay lobby".

[bklyncowgirl]

27. Or could it just mean that you are a good person?

The 'gay lobby' comment was aimed at a group of Vatican clerics who have been using blackmail to among other things cover up financial malfeasance and child sex abuse.

[NYC Liberal]

28. Not according to the Church.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

[NYC Liberal]

11. Because ... Obama has actually done a tremendous amount of good in the real world,

with real policy changes that have actually improved people's lives.

The problem with the pope is that he hasn't done that. He hasn't changed church policies in any substantive way. No one adopted a "wait-and-see" attitude with Obama. They were attacking him before he even took office. Even before he did anything.

The difference between the pope and Obama is that the pope is an absolute monarch. His word is law. If he decreed that women can be priests today, it would instantly be law. If he decreed that homosexuality is not, in fact, a mental disorder, it would instantly be stricken from the Catechism.

Obama cannot do this. If Obama wants to change the law, he has to convince the majority of 535 politicians (a great number of whom will oppose him "just because&quot to agree with him. Obama is subordinate to the Constitution and the law. The pope is above the law, because he alone makes the law.

That's the difference. Therefore, I have a much higher standard for the pope. I understand that there are politics involved even with an absolute monarchy. But the reality is that the pope can do a lot more, and more quickly. And he hasn't.

You ask:

"When did social-issue conservatism become more intolerable than economic/militarist conservatism?"

Social issues often are intertwined with economic issues. Women's rights are very much intertwined with economic opportunity and status. And this pope opposes them. He is virulently opposed to birth control and freedom of choice.

[SidDithers]

14. /thead...

Well said.

Sid

[Kolesar]

20. I doubt that the Pope has the power that you describe

He works in a political system. He may be the general, but he is somehow constrained. He might realize that some people he depends upon could be at risk if some of the crimes were disclosed.

I am just guessing. My knowledge of the church has faded in the time since I was ordered to go to church.

[Vashta Nerada]

22. I don't need to post a reply because the best one is right here.

Thank you, NYC Liberal.

[Cha]

43. Well bloody said, NYC Liberal..

[FreakinDJ]

15. because Obama enabled the 1% rather than opposed them

[SidDithers]

16. ...

Sid

[jsr]

35. Best answer.

[KoKo]

36. It's sure looking like that... We are NOT to mention the Poor

or that people were called back on Christmas Eve for the ACA Extension...which had a sad reminder of Dickens where poor Bob Crachit had to work hard before he could go home to his family and Tiny Tim his disabled little boy.

I don't know if PBO understood that by extending that deadline for the ACA to Christmas Eve it would cause hardship to those who had to process the orders, though. I think he might have thought the Website just would function on it's own without people answering the Phones for the 1-800 Number and the Navigators.

But...I thought it was sort of clueless and wrong for him to extend on Chritmas Eve...that deadline because he wasn't aware that there are People who needed to be there to process.

Just my humble opinion about that.

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. First off, it's partialy temporary. Obama had more love here in his first year

Mostly though I think for many Francis represents a huge upside surprise relative to expectations of him. People are still coming to grips with that. Obama does not benefit by that expectations comparison in anywhere near the same way.

[Kolesar]

21. Obama had more love here until Gang Greenwald figured out how to throw the shit

"A finely crafted message"

My recollection of five years ago was that I was terrified that I was going to lose my job and that my disabled brother could become homeless.

[KoKo]

39. Your life has improve then...and I think many others....but still

it's growing worse for others who weren't exposed then as you and your disabled brother were. We would hope the ACA would help your brother...but, the jobs are still not there for many...

Glad if you have seen your situation improved, though. Still it seems systemic what is going on after the Wall Street Bailout and us savers and those who are on SS and what's left of pensions getting no return on the income they saved...when they didn't buy into either the Tech or Housing Bubble...but, have lost jobs and need those resources now ...along with the little bit saved (earning interest that could keep them from poverty.

[Kolesar]

44. Everybody who depended on their employers for health care were at the same risk as me

My risk might have been a bit higher because I work in manufacturing, but nonetheless most Americans are in way better shape.

My retirement plan is to spend my "savings" while delaying my SS pension so that it will be larger. That effectively creates a higher "return".

I just found: 3% interest on a 5 year CD: http://www.penfed.com

[Vashta Nerada]

23. What has Pope Francis done to change church doctrine?

He hasn't done a thing. He says a lot of stuff that sounds nice, but ultimately it's church doctrine that he follows. He still forbids LGBT from marrying. He still forbids women from serving in leadership position in the church. He still forbids access to contraception. He still forbids women from having control over their own bodies. He still hides pedophiles in the church.

At least Obama has changed his mind (for the better) on a few issues. In 2008, he was against gay marriage. Today, he supports it.

[Doctor_J]

42. he's also changed his mind for the worse on many issues

[Bluenorthwest]

24. When folks start saying that a bigoted, sexist, anti choice cleric should be our example

to follow as a Party they should expect to me hearty opposition from the targets of that bigotry and sexism. If they don't expect that, they are idiots, I have no other word.
It is the basic dishonesty of the promoters of Francis that bother me on DU. Because they don't want to admit that he is a sexist and a homophobe, they simply claim he is not. That's not acceptable. This guy has said awful things about gay people and continues to do so. Those who try to frame him as some breath of fresh pro gay air are seriously offensive in their menadacity. They embody the inequality Francis promotes, for they treat the truth as a thing of no consequence when it comes to gay matters. They just make it up, and claim Francis is almost Harvey Milk made again. They lie to cover up what he really is, when they should embrace it proudly or decry it loudly. They can not make it go away. They dig a bigot, and this causes them to sink to low places, as anyone with a lick of sense would expect, when you stand up for that which is inherently wrong, you will have a hard time making honest arguments.
The actual SOP of General Discussion on DU forbid religious subjects and I think that should be enforced, let religion be discussed in religious groups on DU, leave the Pope to that. It gets to feel like dog whistling, it's divisive, and I think often it is an intentional expression of bigotry by DUers toward DUers. This place should be about politics, and politics should not be mixed with anyone's favorite religion.

[MisterP]

25. well, one's the unquestioned leader of a hierarchical cult that offers salvation in exchange for

blind servitude, whose every move is not only infallible but perfect, even if it's 180* from yesterday's, who only pushes social issues to distract from the rampant corruption

and the other guy's the Pope

[djean111]

26. well done.

[mr blur]

29. ^^This^^

[DerekG]

31. Nicely done, MisterP

n/t

[jsr]

34. Eh, No Papists Allowed.

[KoKo]

37. Part of it might be that we Religious have been waiting for a VOICE

against the horrible circumstances of the Poor & Disenfranchised from our various Religious Leaders for SO LONG...that his messages are like a breath of fresh air of hope for us that the Protestants will FINALLY speak up against what is going on against the Poor and the Middle Class all over the world.

And...it's a relief for those of the Catholic Faith to present a different view than Pedophile Priests.

We must have many counterbalances to what's being done by the Global Elite to the Worlds Poor and Disenfrachised. We hoped the UN would bring a voice...but it's weak and dominated by the Global Powers Veto ...and so, the only other voice would be from the Religious Groups around the Globe to get their act together and speak to the issues of the Poor, Poverty and the Powers that keep this structure in place.

My 2 Cents.

[alp227]

38. Clown question right there. nt

[demwing]

40. Because Jesus, that's why

why else?

[kelliekat44]

41. Actually, I don't think he does. nt