A question about the gender wage gap.

[rrneck]

I'm not particularly interested in whether there is actually a gender wage gap. The statistics that I have seen seem to indicate that there is a wage gap between women and men favoring men, but that is not what I want to know here.

If you think there is a gender wage gap, I would like to know why you think that wage gap exists and what we should do about it.

I've got a lot to do that will occupy several hours of my time today so I won't be able to reply for a while, but that shouldn't matter since I'm not particularly interested in debating the issue anyway. I am much more interested in what others think here.

Thanks for your input.

[SharonAnn]

1. As woman in the computer field for many, many years, I can say this -

Though I was paid better than women in other jobs, it was always about 15-25% lower than my male peers and promotions, when they happened, were slower than those for my male peers. Though I was one of the first women promoted into management in our division of thousands of employees and had a stellar performance record and was well-known for my accomplishments, I heard directly from some people that the only reason I was promoted was because they "had to put some women in management jobs".
Though there was pressure to do something, it was to provide "qualified women the same opportunities for promotion".

Leaving one employer to join another wasn't a solution, because they all paid that way in those days. And interestingly, when i came into a new position I always had "to prove myself" before being accepted. Men were assumed to be competent until proven otherwise and women were assumed to be incompetent until proven otherwise.

Yes, I was aware that it was unfair and was one who pushed to be sure other women got opportunities, but that was the world we lived in. I was single, well-educated, very good at my jobs, yet opportunities were nowhere near equal at that time. At least it got better because in my early work career I'd be told at interviews things like "We don't hire women for these jobs", "We tried hiring a woman once but it didn't work out", "women will just get married, pregnant and quit". After hearing that last one a few times, I blurted out 'I don't even have a date for Saturday night and you've already got me married, pregnant, and quitting!"

The cultural environment at that time was that women should be in subordinate positions, in the "caring" professions, and should be paid less than men. Only some of that has improved. Frankly, I thought we'd be further along by now.

Yet, I had some wonderful opportunities that women of previous generations didn't have and I appreciate that.

[rrneck]

9. Well, if it makes you feel any better

I'm male and I have had to "prove myself" at every job too. I don't think the concept of proving oneself is reserved for women exclusively.

I think there is a fundamental dynamic involved in the disparity in pay that needs a more fundamental explanation than just the employment of a quota system, even though quotas have been beneficial.

[NYC_SKP]

2. The wage gap exists as an artifact of the greater cultural gender power structure.

And it is a characteristic that changes from one culture to another and has been improving in our culture but not quickly enough:



What should we do about it? Support our women and every other group that is treated like they are of less value. It shouldn't be that hard yet there's a lot of pushback, just as there is for achieving true equality for people of color and people with physical impairments.

What escapes discussion, however, are the greater implications for any society where women are paid significantly less. Generally, you will find that the countries with greatest parity also have higher quality healthcare programs, more successful educational systems, lower infant mortality, less crime, etc.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_the_Children_State_of_the_World%27s_Mothers_report

[rrneck]

10. Women may be of less value in the world that we have designed.

It may not be a matter of treating people differently but in designing a world that has different values.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. According to the AAUW and the department of labor

about 3/4 of the raw wage gap is attributable to different choices. Choice of occupation, number of hours worked per week and time in a career.

Without accounting for other factors (such as men's greater likelihood to negotiate for salary) the remaining wage gap appears to be about 5%, so the gap between men and women doing the same work is about 5%.

Without changing people's choices, the raw wage gap won't change, although it has closed in the last 40 years.

What's behind the closure of the gap?

[rrneck]

11. An important question to ask might then be

why do some choices pay better than others?

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. supply and demand

Everyone would prefer safe, comfortable, sit-down work, so all other kinds of work carry a variety of range of price premiums.

[rrneck]

13. Wall Street's full of people who make a ton of money doing sit down work.

So are universities, phone banks, and car dealerships. The pay differential between back work and head work is all over the place.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. I don't claim that this is the only dimension.

Radiologist is a highly sought after career. Pay is high because the AMA controls the number (limits the supply) of people who are accredited to do it.

Another leveling mechanism is credential creep. Take education; When my Grandmother was 18, she was hired to teach in a one-room schoolhouse in Alberta. When she arrived at the town for which she was hired to teach, they gave her a horse (to commute to work) and a rifle (to shoot any wolves she might encounter during said commute).

Now teachers are often expected to have a masters degree and a high levels of continuing education. Districts do this because they can. Arbitrarily high levels of education are used to segregate applicants.

[rrneck]

52. I agree that there any number of contributing factors in any pay disparity.

And I expect very few if any of them are related to gender per se.

Your last point is very interesting. I wonder how the credentials for a teacher in Bogota Tennessee would compare to the credentials of a teacher in a premier private school in New York. I expect the competition for the latter would be very stiff.

[Matariki]

95. That doesn't make any sense

My step dad had a desk job at a steel mill. He was paid many times over the rate that the actual steel workers, who had to do dangerous and back breaking work, were paid.

Desk jobs and managerial work is ALWAYS paid higher than what is considered manual labor.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Was he their boss?

If he was the boss, of course he was paid more, because no one competent would accept the managerial job otherwise.

Even if not, supply and demand still pertain.

His education and training constrained the pool of people competing for his job. The danger and effort required of the steel workers (and the union) constrained the pool of people competing for their jobs too.

A job that doesn't require hard work, lots of education, ethical compromises, danger, responsibility, discomfort or financial risk is usually done by a volunteer. If anyone can do it, and people will do it for zero compensation, then you don't need to hire.

Supply and demand is the primary reason. The supply of active baseball players who hit 600 major league prior to age 33 is one. That's why he has a $275 million contract.

[Matariki]

108. No. I think he did accounting.

It can't all be accounted for by supply and demand. Some of it is education and training but some of it also is based on archaic attitudes toward class and gender. Manual labor is devalued. Craft type work is devalued. Work that used to be traditionally done by women is devalued. There's no inherit value in how things are paid. It's for the most part an unspoken societal contract.

[Matariki]

94. Another question to ask might be why positions traditionally held by women pay less

Teachers for example.

[rrneck]

96. An exceptionally good question. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Why do women seek low paying careers?

Everyone with access to the internet knows what occupations pay. Yet people (mostly women) still go to college to become teachers and social workers. Why?

[rrneck]

100. Another very good question.

I expect that, among other reasons, people enjoy things or are good at things that don't necessarily pay well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Sooo... people who seek careers in teaching or social work aren't primarily motivated by money?

I think you're perilously close to answering your own question.

[rrneck]

102. Not motivate as much by money

as say, investment bankers. Which leads to other questions regarding how certain occupations are valued in a culture and the relationship of those occupations to given kinds of people. Which leads to other questions regarding how those occupations came to be valued and how we might realign what we value in the future.

Lotsa questions.

ETA

And yes, I guess I'm perilously close to answering my own question, which would defeat the purpose of this thread which was to have other people voice an opinion without debating me. I find it interesting that I have been alerted on twice for simply asking people what they think, which raises even more questions.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. It'd be interesting to see how investment bankers spend their leisure time.

I doubt that they spend that time investment banking.

I think that most investment bankers remember going to their HS guidance counselors and asking "I want to make a shitload of money. How do I do that?" That counselor might have asked what the student enjoyed.

I suspect most of those who went on to be successful said, "Who cares what I enjoy?"

If you're motivated by money, you'll seek a career with that as the only criteria. If you're not entirely or even primarily motivated by money, you'll get paid less.

[rrneck]

105. I listened to the interview of a biographer

of Warren Buffett once. As I recall, her take on the man was not that he was an investor, but a collector who happened to specialize in collecting money.

Have you seen the documentary The Corporation? It defines the modern corporation as psychopathic. Now, what kind of person would function best within a psychopathic system? A psychopath.

I just finished a book by James Fallon, a neuroscientist who discovered in the course of his research that he is a psychopath. He sums up by describing how he has tried to treat people right and can manage to feign genuine empathy for others, but the truth is he just doesn't care. He is a highly successful researcher, entrepreneur and self described asshole.

There is a too long OP in there somewhere that will either piss people off or tell them what they already know.

[Matariki]

104. Because those are valuable fields that actually contribute something.

Sadly they pay less than something useless like investment banking. Speaks volumes about our culture's values really.

[rrneck]

106. It's hard to sell the concept of investment banking short

if, like me, you enjoy air conditioning and ice in your scotch. Of course, they way they're doing it now is completely ridiculous.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. A lot of people apparently agree.

So many in fact, that there's a surplus.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

34. that Slate "article" you linked to is bullshit

a bunch of apologea for the many various reasons for the pay gap. I like her line..."yes, men get higher bonuses, but let's shelve that while we...."

This stupid idiot female writer spends the whole piece rationalizing all of the various and many inputs into why the pay gap is there and never does disprove that it exists.

For instance, "careers women congregate in"?? JEEZ! I wonder why women congregated in those professions!!

Like I said. the article is bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. I find arguments that actually include arguments to be more compelling than "that's bullshit!".

I wonder why women congregate in those professions too. Trash collector actually pays reasonably well without any major investment in education.

"This stupid idiot female writer"? Interesting.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

74. I listed reasons for calling it bullshit. you choose to ignore them in your response

I guess we know who is debating from a position of genuine concern for the facts as opposed to pushing a point of view.

Yeah, why do you think trash collection wasn't a career open to women throughout our history as a nation. Gee. I wonder.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. It's a career that is open to women now. Why don't women choose to do it? n/t

[sabrina 1]

87. She's stupid because she's a female?

Why not just say 'this writer .... '.

This is part of the reason for the gender gap in pay, imo. Rather than looking at the quality of work of each PERSON and their qualifications, focusing on gender, then deciding they deserve less pay BECAUSE they are female or African American is part of the problem.

How about those who are hiring, are not told the gender or ethnicity of the applicant and simply view the qualifications of the Person to avoid allowing bias to enter into the decision.

When it comes to people's work, that is ALL that should matter. But statements like 'this stupid FEMALE writer' demonstrates that bias is a huge factor in how people judge qualifications.

You might want to edit your comment, or not, but I have heard this kind of thing so often 'that WOMAN doesn't know what she is doing'.

[Proud Public Servant]

4. I think it's multifaceted

which is why it's such a tough nut to crack.

First, there's wage discrimination: unequal pay for equal work. That should be the easiest problem to solve, since the solution can be legislated.

Second, there's the cultural bias against "women's work." It's been years since I studied this, but I know that there's plenty of evidence that, the more a field (white- or blue-collar) is dominated by women, the lower the average wages in that field tend to be. There's even evidence that when a field goes from being male-dominated to female-dominated (e.g., teaching and secretarial work at the beginning of the 20th century), the wages go down, while if a field goes from being female-dominated to male-dominated (e.g., data processing at mid-century), the wages go up. How do you keep that from happening? I have no idea.

Third, there's what appears to be the fact that women are much more likely to sideline their careers for family purposes than men are. I've never seen, and would love to see, a wage-gap comparison that looks only at childless men and women; I'd bet the gap would be significantly narrower. What can we do about that? A generous government child-care policy, modeled on those of Europe, would be a start. But we also have to raise boys who do not believe the entirety of their identity and self-worth is rooted in their work.

Finally, there's the fact that women don't jockey for advantage in the workplace with the same aggression in men, in part because we raise girls to value compromise and "being liked" while we raise boys to value winning. What can we do about that? Speaking from experience as a dad of a daughter, we can raise girls to have sharper elbows. Morally, we raised our daughter with the values more often imparted to boys: do what's right -- but if you're sure you're right, don't apologize, don't back down, and don't take "no" for an answer. I'm heartened to see that there's a whole world of millennial feminist reinforcement for this attitude, in places like Jezebel, Wonkette, Feministing and elsewhere. I was also heartened when recently at work my daughter's bosses offered her a new position and title (she's only 23), and her first response was "fine; now talk to me about money"; she ended up with a 20% raise, but her bosses freely confessed that she wouldn't have gotten it if she hadn't asked.

So just some thoughts; it's a tremendously interesting topic.

[Major Nikon]

8. Single, young, childless women earn 8% on average more than their male peers

In some areas they earn 20% more.

The fact that the average American working woman earns only about 8o% of what the average American working man earns has been something of a festering sore for at least half the population for several decades. And despite many programs and analyses and hand-wringing and badges and even some legislation, the figure hasn't budged much in the past five years.

But now there's evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group. In two cities, Atlanta and Memphis, those women are making about 20% more. This squares with earlier research from Queens College, New York, that had suggested that this was happening in major metropolises. But the new study suggests that the gap is bigger than previously thought, with young women in New York City, Los Angeles and San Diego making 17%, 12% and 15% more than their male peers, respectively. And it also holds true even in reasonably small areas like the Raleigh-Durham region and Charlotte in North Carolina (both 14% more), and Jacksonville, Fla. (6%).

http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

When 3 women earn a college degree for every 2 men, it's not hard to figure out why.

[Proud Public Servant]

15. Very, very interesting. Thanks! (nt)

[etherealtruth]

17. Hmmm, that flies in the face of other research

Of course a college educated woman should make more than a cohort that graduated high school or dropped out of high school. ... but, when comparing similar education and experience the outcome is far less positive for women.

http://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-profiles/publicola/articles/on-equal-pay-day-women-still-make-77-cents-to-mens-dollar

"And women aren't just earning less than men overall; they're earning less working the exact same jobs. A study by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research concluded that nationally men earn more in nearly every occupation, even those where a majority of positions are held by women. Of the 20 jobs most commonly held by women, women earned more than men in just one---bookkeeping, where women earn 100.3 percent of what men earn. The pay disparity starts right at the beginning of a woman's career. According to a recent study by the American Association of University Women, recent female college graduates made just 80 percent of their male counterparts' salaries. "

[Major Nikon]

22. Hardly

When 3 women are graduating for every 2 men, the comparison is completely relevant because women starting out have more opportunity than men. The reverse gender pay gap for young people reflects this.

The 80% figure from AAUW doesn't take relevant factors into consideration either. If you read the fine print from AAUW, even they admit the unexplained portion of the pay gap is 7%.

Our analysis shows that despite these similarities, the woman would earn about 7 percent less than the man would earn.

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

Family considerations have a huge impact on gender pay disparity. Preferences for better fringe benefits and less risk of physical injury also do.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2524351?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103172078111

[etherealtruth]

24. that flies in the face of these studies

Oddly, the AAUW study you cite actually states: According to a new report (PDF) by the American Association of University Women, the man would be earning a salary of $51,300. The woman’s pay would be $39,600—about 77 percent of what her male counterpart earns.

The AAUW report compared the earnings of men and women just one year out of college across various sectors of the economy. The report controlled for different factors that tend to impact pay, including hours, job type, employment sector, and college major. The report—which uses the class of 2009 as its sample cohort—found that on average, women working full time earned 82 percent of what their male peers earned. The average for all women, at all experience levels, is 77 percent, a number that has barely budged in a decade.

Here's a few more links (that compare apples to apples vs apples to oranges)


Women earn $8,000 less than men after graduation - Oct. 23, 2012
money.cnn.com/2012/10/23/pf/college/women-men-pay-gap/


One year after graduating from college, women who landed full-time jobs earned 82 cents for every dollar men earned, according to a report from the ...
One year out of college, women already paid less than men ...
articles.washingtonpost.com/.../35500451_1_high...and-women



Why Women Earn Less Than Men a Year Out of School - Businessweek
www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-25/why-women-earn...
“This pay gap is not merely the result of women’s choices,” researchers Christianne Corbett and Catherine Hill wrote in their report, “Graduating to a Pay Gap.” “Lower earnings have an immediate effect after college, setting into motion a chain of disparities that will follow women throughout their careers.”

[Major Nikon]

28. Not "studies", study. Everything you posted is from AAUW.

Which is a feminist organization. That doesn't mean their data is flawed, but it does mean their conclusions have an obvious bias.

[etherealtruth]

30. I was using the info from the links you provided and expanded on

I added another post with more information.

We still have a long way to go. I would hope we are all striving for equal rights and opportunity for all.

from my other post:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-male-decline.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Women’s real wages have been rising for decades, while the real wages of most men have stagnated or fallen. But women’s wages started from a much lower base, artificially held down by discrimination. Despite their relative improvement, women’s average earnings are still lower than men’s and women remain more likely to be poor.

Today women make up almost 40 percent of full-time workers in management. But the median wages of female managers are just 73 percent of what male managers earn. And although women have significantly increased their representation among high earners in America over the past half-century, only 4 percent of the C.E.O.’s in Fortune’s top 1,000 companies are female.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/23/news/economy/gender_gap/index.htm
On payday, it's still a man's world. Study: Females earn 80 percent of what men earn one year after graduating from college; falls to 69 percent 10 years later.

[Major Nikon]

32. If you actually read your links you'll find it all comes from the same source which is the AAUW.

All you are doing is posting the same thing over and over from multiple sources to make it appear as if one study = "studies".

If you like I can post multiple "studies" which are far more comprehensive which show the unexplained portion of the gender pay gap is statistically negligible.

[etherealtruth]

36. Did you read the links ... ? It does not appear so ...?

Yes they (like yours) referenced the work by the AAUW and other sources such as the study, entitled "Behind the Pay Gap," used data from the U.S. Department of Education. It analyzed some 9,000 college graduates from 1992-93 and more than 10,000 from 1999-2000

Males out-earn females in every category, according to a reanalysis of census data to be presented next month at Boston University by Philip Cohen, a sociologist at the University of Maryland.

Similarly, a 2010 Catalyst survey found that female M.B.A.’s were paid an average of $4,600 less than men in starting salaries and continue to be outpaced by men in rank and salary growth throughout their careers, even if they remain childless.

There does not appear to be any real dispute that the wage gap exists and that it exists from the very beginning of professional worklife.

[Major Nikon]

38. When you read the fine print they state the aggregate difference of the unexplained portion is 7%

So even the AAUW study which you keep quoting over and over admits the actual pay gap is in the single digits.

Also in the fine print you will find "may be attributed to discrimination". Which is the same as saying "may not be attributed to discrimination".

As a result, it is not possible now, and doubtless will never be possible, to determine reliably whether any portion of the observed gender wage gap is not attributable to factors that compensate women and men differently on socially acceptable bases, and hence can confidently be attributed to overt discrimination against women. In addition, at a practical level, the complex combination of factors that collectively determine the wages paid to different individuals makes the formulation of policy that will reliably redress any overt discrimination that does exist a task that is, at least, daunting and, more likely, unachievable.

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

[etherealtruth]

46. You appear very heavily invested in believing that there is not gender discrimination

Numerous studies have verified this over and over ... for decades.

Of course employers are rarely going to state "I pay men more than I pay women of equal skill, education and experience". It requires the ability to look at trends. There is also unconscious bias ... most are unaware of their bias (they would no more overtly discriminate against women as they would not overtly discriminate against people of color ... yet discrimination against both remains a societal problem). There are many factors that come into play.

Gender discrimination is almost as hard to prove as age discrimination ... yet both exist.

"At a practical level, the complex combination of factors that collectively determine the wages paid to different individuals makes the formulation of policy that will reliably redress any overt discrimination that does exist a task that is, at least, daunting and, more likely, unachievable." from your snip

This tells me that it is a societal problem, until societal (cultural) sexism is addressed we will continue to have this issue

[Major Nikon]

50. That was never my claim

I deal with gender discrimination every day at work. It's what I do. I have no idea what your background is, but I've forgotten more about the subject than most people will ever know.

The current gender pay gap is listed by the BLS as 80.6%.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm

I have one simple question for you. How much of that do you think it attributable to "societal (cultural) sexism"?

[etherealtruth]

58. All of it

There is a mommy track, yet no daddy track (this does children, mothers and fathers a disservice); there is overt sexism (I don't want to work with women or women make good "secretaries" not good engineers), and there is subtle (unconscious) sexism (I know she looked good on paper and she has more experience and better credentials ...but I don't know why ... i just liked him better).

I would have no problem working on resolving the problem of societal sexism ... the workplace inequities would be taken care of by doing so.

More transparency in wages and benefits would, of course have a major impact; however, I don't see large (and small) businesses operating in the sunshine.

My background is in nursing and environmental consulting (environmental risk/ environmental chemistry)

[Major Nikon]

59. This just proves you have a poor understanding of the subject

Even the AAUW (a feminist organization) admits there are a number of factors which explain portions of the raw gender pay gap. If you think all of it is attributable to sexism, then you are at odds with them as well as me.

[etherealtruth]

65. Really

I am speaking of people with equal education, experience and credentials .. not being paid the same.

From the study: The AAUW report compared the earnings of men and women just one year out of college across various sectors of the economy. The report controlled for different factors that tend to impact pay, including hours, job type, employment sector, and college major. The report—which uses the class of 2009 as its sample cohort—found that on average, women working full time earned 82 percent of what their male peers earned. The average for all women, at all experience levels, is 77 percent, a number that has barely budged in a decade.

Please identify what other factors impacted this group? The women were simply not as intelligent? They were ill prepared ... not hard working? That is not the conclusion reached by the AAUW.

The fact that you work in this area is becoming frightening

[Major Nikon]

70. Did you actually read the study?

There are far more factors than just "equal education, experience and credentials".

You really should try actually reading the actual "study" (which is only one of many, btw) rather than what someone else tells you it says. Here is the actual quote from the very study you are trying to reference...

But in 2009—the most recent year for which data are available—women one year out of college who were working full time earned, on average, just 82 percent of what their male peers earned.

Page 1

This is the raw gender pay gap, not the gap after the controls are added as you are wrongly assuming.

Had you read the actual study, you would have found....

After we control for hours, occupation, college major, employment sector, and other factors associated with pay, [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]the pay gap shrinks

but does not disappear. [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]About one third of the gap cannot be explained by any of the factors commonly understood to affect earnings, indicating that other factors that are more difficult to identify—and likely more difficult to measure—contribute to the pay gap.

1/3rd of an 18% gap = 6%

Still frightened?

[etherealtruth]

76. Very frightened

Last edited Sat Dec 28, 2013, 08:05 AM - Edit history (2)

This has been fun and you really are a hoot (I was quite bored tonight), but I am finally tired and going to bed.

On edit (I generally like to make a second post vs editing, however, you seemed to take exception to that): You may want to take a closer look at the study

Pay Gap Shows Up Even A Year After College Graduation
Occupational segregation is by no means the whole story, however. When AAUW compared men and women who chose the same college major using U.S. Department of Education statistics, we found that just one year out of college, women working full time already earned less, on average, than their male colleagues. Among education majors, for example, women earned only 95 percent as much as their male colleagues earned, and among biological science majors, women earned just 75 percent as much as men earned one year after graduation.

In an attempt to really compare apples to apples, our research accounted not only for college major but also for occupation, industry, sector, hours worked, workplace flexibility, experience, educational attainment, enrollment status, GPA, institution selectivity, age, race/ethnicity, region, marital status, and children.

After accounting for all of these factors thought to affect earnings (whether fairly or not), we found that a 5 percent difference in the earnings of women and men one year out of college was still unexplained. A similar analysis of full-time workers 10 years after college graduation found a 12 percent unexplained difference in earnings.

Catherine Hill, Ph.D., is the director of research at AAUW, where she focuses on higher education and women's economic security. Prior to her work at AAUW, she was a researcher at the Institute for Women's Policy Research and an assistant professor at the University of Virginia. She has bachelor's and master's degrees from Cornell University and a doctorate in public policy from Rutgers University. Follow AAUW on Twitter @AAUW.

Second edit (again I prefer to start a second post....):

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/05/171196714/the-jobs-with-the-biggest-and-smallest-pay-gaps-between-men-and-women

Women are paid significantly less, on average, than men — even when they're doing the same jobs. But the gap varies dramatically for workers in different jobs.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics sent us some data on how much women made in comparison to their male counterparts in hundreds of different jobs; here are the jobs where the wage gap is smallest, and those where the gap is biggest. The gap is based on comparisons of full-time workers.

[Major Nikon]

90. Nobody is disputing there's a raw pay gap

The question is how much of that is due to discrimination. The answer is very little. This has been verified by numerous pay gap studies.

[etherealtruth]

29. here is even more information that disputes what you have posted

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-male-decline.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Women’s real wages have been rising for decades, while the real wages of most men have stagnated or fallen. But women’s wages started from a much lower base, artificially held down by discrimination. Despite their relative improvement, women’s average earnings are still lower than men’s and women remain more likely to be poor.

Today women make up almost 40 percent of full-time workers in management. But the median wages of female managers are just 73 percent of what male managers earn. And although women have significantly increased their representation among high earners in America over the past half-century, only 4 percent of the C.E.O.’s in Fortune’s top 1,000 companies are female.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/23/news/economy/gender_gap/index.htm
On payday, it's still a man's world. Study: Females earn 80 percent of what men earn one year after graduating from college; falls to 69 percent 10 years later.

[Major Nikon]

31. You aren't contradicting me

The information I posted is for young people (22 to 30) who are not married and have no kids. You are posting information from a much larger and older subset. From the standpoint of opportunity, what I posted is far more relevant to what is actually happening today. Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes once family considerations come into play.

Your last link comes from the exact same AAUW source you have been posting all along. I've read the AAUW study from the first page to the last. You don't have to keep referencing it from multiple sources.

[bettyellen]

18. It should be more than that considering how more educated they are!

[Major Nikon]

19. In some markets it's as high as 20%

[bettyellen]

21. I saw that- there was a few conditions that create a bad job market for

The less educated.

But no one is claiming in any of these markets that women are pulling larger salaries for the same exact jobs- are they?

Nope- quite the contrary. Still. And that sucks.

[Major Nikon]

23. How do you know they aren't?

Studying pay disparity at that level is practically impossible because few, if any industries other than government release their pay data.

What is indisputable from the data is that overall, women starting out have more opportunities to earn more than men which is not surprising at all since far more of them are graduating from college. This also means they have more opportunity to earn more throughout their entire life.

[bettyellen]

39. You did read the article that the increase evaporates at age 30....

So you claiming the (well earned, btw) advantage lasts long is again - ridiculous.
Did you not read the article or just misrepresent it intentionally?

[Major Nikon]

41. Which is around the same age they start getting married and have children

Surprise!

[bettyellen]

45. You think women should be penalized for taking maternity leave?

Or that they should be assumed to take on the majority of child rearing duties?
What is this, 1955? Lol.
Ridiculous, and equally offensive to both parents.

[Major Nikon]

56. Pfft. I took paternity leave myself with my last child

It's been guaranteed since Clinton signed it into law in 1993.

Choosing family over work is a choice that men and predominately women make every day. Devaluing either one for making that choice is what's offensive.

[bettyellen]

82. That's another question you dodged -

So since you're defending the status quo, we have to assume you're okay with women being penalized for giving birth.
I'm glad I work at a company that doesn't even though I never plan on using the benefit. All the women come back, resume their work seamlessly and because of that- it's not only men managing. Because diversity matters to liberals.

[Major Nikon]

83. The answer to your question is...

No

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. Yes. Workers tend to be penalized for not working.

Young dads work longer hours to mitigate the loss of household income which results from mom being on maternity leave.

I'm frequently amazed at peoples ability to deny the obvious when it conflicts with their dogma.

[bettyellen]

84. You with the 60% of wealth stat? Ha ha- where'd you get this nonsense

About young Dads working more hours- same place as the wealth stats- I.e. no where?

[Major Nikon]

97. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024233028#post174

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.toc.htm

[cthulu2016]

5. The first company to hire all women will bankrupt all competitors

A company able to pay 87 cents on the dollar for precisely the same value will be in a position such that nobody can compete with them, and all the competitors will hire extra women until the value equation is 50-50.

So the whole thing will go away any day now.

[xulamaude]

6. Add to that the wisdom my mom laid on me many years ago

(and still holds true): As a woman you will have to work twice as hard to be paid less.

So not only do companies 'save' on labor costs, they get better performance at zero cost.

Yee Haw!

[Major Nikon]

16. If this were true business would have figured it out a long time ago

Anyone who thinks business values hiring men over the almighty dollar doesn't understand business very well. Any considerations after profit are mostly, if not completely irrelevant.

[bettyellen]

20. If the almighty dollar was everything African Americans would not have the high

Unemployment that they do. This is a ridiculous assertion, based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

[Major Nikon]

26. There's an even larger reverse gender pay gap between people of color starting out

Millennial Hispanic and black women make even more -- as much as twice - as Hispanic and black men of the same age. That's because the education gap is even wider between Hispanic and black young women and men than it is for whites.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-truth-behind-the-rumor-that-young-women-have-beat-the-wage-gap/

People of color are more likely to be born into poverty which reduces opportunity in all sorts of different ways. Women are just as likely as men to be born into affluence. That's why the attempt to conflate gender and race discrimination is quite problematic.

[bettyellen]

33. Ha ha. Studies show pay discrimination against women

And you can keep looking for pockets of exceptions - but that is still what they are.

Nice dodge, btw. According to your half baked theories black men should be at full employment. Ha, dream on.

[Major Nikon]

35. ...

[etherealtruth]

37. Some people are heavily invested in denying sexism (in this case)

... racism and homophobia. I think the thought of a truly level playing field scares the shit out of some people ... for the rest of us, that is all we want for ourselves and our children.

Equal opportunity is all anyone asks for.

[bettyellen]

40. Tell me about it- completely misrepresenting the article is a desperate move.

But the economic predictions and theories are fucking hilarious, spewed with complete sincerity and backed up with facts. Naah, they're a stinking pant load of RW garbage.

[etherealtruth]

48. Of course they are

Yet those engaged are so completely blind to their prejudices

[Major Nikon]

80. "completely misrepresenting the article"

"From the study: The AAUW report compared the earnings of men and women just one year out of college across various sectors of the economy. The[div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"] report controlled for different factors that tend to impact pay, including hours, job type, employment sector, and college major. The report—which uses the class of 2009 as its sample cohort—found that on average, women working full time earned [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]82 percent of what their male peers earned. The average for all women, at all experience levels, is 77 percent, a number that has barely budged in a decade. "
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024235860#post65

From the study:

Graduating to a Pay Gap explores the pay gap between male and female college graduates working full time one year after graduation. You might expect the pay gap between men and women in this group of workers of similar age, education, and family responsibilities to be small or nonexistent. But in 2009—the most recent year for which data are available—women one year out of college who were working full time earned, on average, just [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]82 percent

of what their male peers earned. [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]After we control for hours, occupation, college major, employment sector, and other factors associated with pay, [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]the pay gap shrinks but does not disappear. [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]About one third of the gap cannot be explained by any of the factors commonly understood to affect earnings, indicating that other factors that are more difficult to identify—and likely more difficult to measure—contribute to the pay gap.
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

1/3rd of 18% = 6%

This study was conducted by feminists and if you read the fine print, shows the actual pay gap after controls are added is in the single digits (other studies show that it's lower). So not only have multiple people from this very thread cherry picked quotes from a feminist conducted study, they have misrepresented it by failing to show that the actual result is far lower than what they are willing to admit. Keep in mind also that this is the unexplained portion of the pay gap which even the AAUW admits may be due to things other than discrimination. "Gender discrimination is one potential contributor to the unexplained pay gap." (page 2)

This is what "completely misrepresenting the article" really looks like.

Cheers!

[Major Nikon]

64. Some also want to get personal when their intellectual arguments fail

Just sayin'

[etherealtruth]

67. Oh my are you attempting to get "personal"?

Its OK, perhaps you are just having an off night.

Just sayin'

[Major Nikon]

73. "Some people are heavily invested in denying sexism"

That is personal.

Your claim is that if someone doesn't agree with you, they must be an apologist for sexism (at best). Whether you realize it or not, this is intellectual bankruptcy. Higher on the chart is better.

[xulamaude]

43. Gee, I kinda thought I might get the

'but if companies only hired women that would be discrimination against men' argument.

[Major Nikon]

47. It would be

At least according to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended. YMMV.

UNLAWFUL EMPLOYMENT PRACTICES

SEC. 2000e-2. [Section 703]

(a) Employer practices

It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -

(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm

[xulamaude]

51. You got that I was making a joke

with my first post, right?

If not, I was. Although it is true that my mom did say that to me.

[Major Nikon]

53. Perhaps you should tell that to bettyellen

[xulamaude]

54. Bettyellen has her own thing going on.

Can't say that I disagree with her.

[Major Nikon]

57. And what would that be exactly?

I've yet to figure it out.

[xulamaude]

63. As I said, she has her own thing going on

and if you don't understand what she's saying then no number of more women 'explaining' it will make any difference.

[Major Nikon]

66. Must be one of those things that's beyond the scope of reason

[xulamaude]

68. Cute, Nikon. And end run around

'dumb blondes'... or something.

I got some sleepin' to do. Hasta luego.

[Major Nikon]

71. Happy New Year

Seriously.

[EC]

7. Yet very few companies hire a majority of women

so it can't be all economics...I think that (some) men just think they are better and women are incompetent. I'm willing to believe that if the law didn't tell companies they had to hire women, they wouldn't.

[Nye Bevan]

77. I have had the privilege of overhearing a bunch of women discussing their female boss.

And I'm not 100% certain that a company full of this kind of thing is guaranteed to "bankrupt all of its competitors".

[etherealtruth]

14. I know that I work in a predominantly male field ("a science and engineering" field)

I know that I had to work LONGER hours and had to produce more than my male counterparts .... to prove myself. I also know I have been paid 10-15% less, for my efforts. I know that I took far less sick time and was never late. I worked (in actual hours) 10-20% more than my male counterparts (making my actual pay deficit ~20-25% less)

In the end I developed a very good reputation and was courted and recruited by other firms (that were aware of my work). when I tendered my resignation they countered with offers that in the end exceeded the offers from other companies and my male peers ... but, women in my department are still hired in for less than men and raises are not as forthcoming.

I believe that this (in my company in particular/ they pretty much admit it) is directly attributable to sexist attitudes from another time. In the course of my employment I actually heard that men (a particular man) needed to support their families (this did not go over well with me, a single mother).

I think this happens far more than folk like to acknowledge ... I do not always believe that it is a conscious "plot" ... but often unrecognized bias.

[bettyellen]

44. I have heard both things- can't hire or pay women because they'll just

Leave to get pregnant. Gotta pay men more because they have to support a family. I asked my boss about the generous salary he was giving a young single guy, and he said the guy has to pay for dates and stuff. So, yeah it's messed up.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. Here's some homework for you

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+cause+of+gender+wage+gap%3F

Please get back to us with a short to medium summary of your findings. Let's say....in college paper terms....1 to 2 pages double spaced.

Thanks in advance.

Oh, and I'm going to trash your thread, so go ahead and IM me as well. I'm not interested in debating you on the issue.

[rrneck]

42. I wanted to know what DUers thought.

Those that did any thinking anyway.

[etherealtruth]

49. Its a really rude night on DU

I am hoping it is just Friday night alcohol consumption.

[rrneck]

55. Aw, I'm used to it.

Actually, alcohol consumption sounds like a pretty good idea. :

Thanks for your input above. I don't know enough about the issue to even try to parse the research or the numbers, and I'm not much with statistics to boot. I have a different bee in my bonnet here. I'm willing to stipulate an income disparity because of other factors that I need to think about more, so I thought I'd see if I couldn't get some ideas from the DU brain trust about what they thought the causes of income disparity were.

Now, I think I've got a couple of beers in the fridge...

[aikoaiko]

60. Jury results forthcoming...

[rrneck]

61. This should be interesting. nt

[aikoaiko]

62. And the jury results are in...

An epic 6-0 to leave.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
At Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:11 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

A question about the gender wage gap.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024235860

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

pure misogynist trolling. no thought, no data, not really even any opinion. just shit stirring. this is the kind of thing that makes du suck for half the population.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:24 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: When the alerter says this OP makes DU suck for half the population I can only assume that means the easily offended half.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think that the alerter is reaching here, and while I might agree that the poster probably entertains ulterior motives in his posting of this thread, I do not see it as simply shit stirring. I say try to ignore it and allow the post to sink without engaging. It's not worth replying to and the poster even says as much when he claims that he's not interested in debating his question. Leave it alone or trash thread.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think the person who alerted is the shit stirrer.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I thought the poster asked an honest question. He is looking for the opinion of others. This particular post doesn't seem to be shit stirring etc. to me.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I don't see what the complaint is about. The OP is not rude and does not appear to be "shit stirring" at all IMO.

What is the problem with asking for peoples opinion on a discussion board? He/she even says thanks at the end. What a hater! /sarcasm

[rrneck]

69. Only on DU can you get in trouble

for asking what people think.

[Nye Bevan]

78. Ridculous alert. Smart jury. (nt)

[sabrina 1]

89. Second jury results are in:

At Sat Dec 28, 2013, 08:15 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Women may be of less value in the world that we have designed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4238314

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"Women may be of less value in the world that we have designed."

What the holy fuck?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Dec 28, 2013, 08:25 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I am a woman and I understand what the poster was saying. In other words, it is society's fault that women aren't valued, and we need new societal rules for determining the value of human beings. I agree, actually, and I'm a strong feminist.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Yes, very insensitive and hurtful.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: What a waste of time. The alerter needs to read that post again. Wtf indeed re this alert.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I read that statement as an indictment of how sexism is completely institutionalized in our society and that we need to change our culture.

Leave it.

[rrneck]

92. I wonder if I should solicit a list

of proper phrases to use so I don't run the risk of ideological heresy?

[ElboRuum]

91. Love the alert note.

"this is the kind of thing that makes du suck for half the population"

I realize that this is alert is just histrionic glibbitude, hyperbole for effect and whatnot. But last I heard, the preponderance of DU was female, so technically this makes DU suck for much more than half of the DU population.

However, if we must get this perfectly and exactly right, it sucks for a handful of people who simply don't get the fact that bullying isn't cool, admirable, or acceptable. It is boggling that they continue to be mystified time and time again that people simply won't let them dictate the terms of discourse on DU, specifically with regards to gender issues and concerns, and even more specifically what can be talked about, how it can be talked about, and when that all goes predictably wrong with these attempts at control and people say "hey, I don't agree with you on that", WHO can talk about it.

[sabrina 1]

93. You would think that after YEARS of people trying to tell them that their methods of discussing

feminism has made DU a place NOT to go to for such discussions they would understand that it is not everyone else after all.

First time I looked at the Feminism forum, several years ago now, I was totally turned off by the vitriol that was going on and just stayed out of it since them.

And that 'half' referred to in the alert note. Or more than half as you point out, makes the presumption that they are speaking for all women here when nothing could be further from the truth.

Two good jury results so far.

[davidn3600]

81. Having children along with gender roles are the problem

Women do just as well and even better than men with salary in most areas of the economy....before she has children. Once she has that child, her ability to keep up with men in salary and career progression plummets.

Reasons have to do with everything from the woman's own life choices to men unwilling/unable to take on any tasks of a caregiver role.

Think about it...if a girl joins a sports team and heavily involved in sports...she's viewed as strong and assertive, confident, etc.. Even though she's doing things boys tends to do, it is encouraged thanks to feminism.
But if a boy decides he wants to do ballet, our society questions what his sexual orientation might be. Feminism has done a pretty decent job getting girls accepted in traditionally male activities. It it has so far done a poor job trying to figure out how to get it more acceptable for boys to do anything that is perceived to be something girls do. Even if the boy wants to, there is enormous social pressure telling him to avoid it.

[rrneck]

88. That dynamic points to the way our culture is structured.

Certainly some types of human endeavor are more valued than others.

[Niceguy1]

85. that's why Union is good

same wage for same job same benefits same vacation etc.