ODD: “If you’re outraged, you must be mentally ill.”

[kpete]

Remember those bumper stickers that said,
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention"?
Well, now it seems that "If you're outraged, you must be mentally ill."

Nonconformity and Freethinking Now Considered Mental Illnesses

Is nonconformity and freethinking a mental illness? According to the newest addition of the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), it certainly is. The manual identifies a new mental illness called “oppositional defiant disorder” or ODD. Defined as an “ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,” symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed.

MORE:
http://theunboundedspirit.com/nonconformity-and-freethinking-now-considered-mental-illnesses/

[hobbit709]

1. Given the conditions of contemporary society, how can one claim the "normal" person is really sane?

[Octafish]

2. Someone wants to identify and label those who notice the world is crazy.

Makes it easier for the rich to get richer off wars for profit without end.

[LeftofObama]

3. I guess I'm guilty!

Go ahead, lock me up.

[L0oniX]

30. So am I

[longship]

4. I am completely outraged by this!!!

Well, somebody had to do it.

[pinboy3niner]

6. Luckily for you, there's a room open...

[longship]

11. ROFL!! Good one.

But now I am really outraged.

[GoneFishin]

38. LOL. funny.

[idwiyo]

5. Heh, there you go. Lefty nutcase calling in!

[Eleanors38]

7. Not this lefty. I'm a perfessional.

[MindPilot]

8. This is why I think psychiatry is borderline quackery.

Mental illness is not considered as something actually gone wrong in someone's brain. It is simply a cluster of behaviors and attitudes that "society" happens to find objectionable at a particular moment in time.

[L0oniX]

24. ^^^this^^^

[pinboy3niner]

43. ...says the guy with a bug in his sigline

[L0oniX]

50. .

I really enjoy getting people to laugh.

[pinboy3niner]

52. Mostly, you just get us to swat our screens for a while

[ananda]

37. Yes, the so-called "science" of the oppressive mental health system ...

... isn't science at all. It's just circular assertion.

Big pharma loves it, though.

[QuestForSense]

40. Which explains why they no longer talk with the person anymore.

They simply write a prescription.

[nolabear]

77. This is not true. Few, very few write prescriptions w/o some talk and a referral.

There are many psychiatrists who are med providers and in fact do only schedule people for a half hour or so once they've got a history and established a diagnosis. The vast majority of those people refer the patient for talk therapy, CBT, DBT, RET, AA, group therapy or a host of others.

I know it's tempting to claim, but with exceptions that are scorned mightily by most of us in the mental health field and such circumstances as prisons and other abusive exceptions, psychiatrists care and try to help.

[QuestForSense]

81. I'm sure there ARE psychiatrists who care and try to help.

But the prescription pad does seem to be today's preferred method of treatment. According to the National Center for Health Statistics, a branch of the CDC, the number of Americans age 12 and older taking antidepressants now comprises fully 11% of the total population of the United States, which amounts to some 34 million people. Despite the high numbers, the Institute estimates that only about a third of those people who suffer from clinical depression take antidepressants. The report also highlights the growing trend among the population as a whole to turn to medications to solve problems that were once considered something people should deal with in other ways, such as psychoanalysis.

[nolabear]

83. I know. I'm a psychoanalyst. Getting coverage for effective talk therapy is nearly impossible.

At the analytic institute where I'm faculty, we get many a trainee who is stunned by the desolation of prescription pad psychiatry. For people who genuinely care about human relationships that kind of work is mind and soul numbing, but insurance companies recognize neither mind nor soul. We are under absolute assault by insurance companies who second guess our diagnoses, limit the number of sessions we can have, threaten to put practitioners who advocate extended treatment on a "list" with the vague threat that future requests for coverage will come under special scrutiny. We're constantly caught between our patients, who come to us in desperate and varied need for all manner of thing from genuine brain dysfunction to chronic grief to the inability to stop engaging in extremely harmful behaviors. We work like dogs, often for considerably reduced fees, in order to actually be of help.

I've told many a patient that I believe in meds when necessary, that I leave those decisions ultimately up to them out of respect, but that I am not in the business of drugging someone in order to help them stay in their shitty lives (in so many words...I tend to be blunt).

I could go on and on but that's just my frustration coming out. Thanks for listening.

[QuestForSense]

85. Thanks for educating everyone re insurance companies and talk therapy.

Few could have known this; I certainly didn't. And thank YOU for listening.

[nolabear]

88. You're welcome. Lots of good folks leave the business because it's been made so hard.

And it's godawful for the poor people we see, who just want to get better, but have a long road sometimes.

[kestrel91316]

68. Well, schizophrenia IS something gone wrong with the brain.

But as for an awful lot of other mental issues, I tend to agree.

[nolabear]

75. Well, let's see you sit back, watch a terrified, hysterical, suicidal patient and explain that.

Your post is ignorant of the realities of mental illness. My own opinion is that we lump too many things under that rubric, but that's not the professional, that's society. If you're hallucinating or have to touch the door a hundred and fifty times so your child won't die it's a little hard to make the argument that you'd be fine if the problem was just considered normal.

[dotymed]

9. I have been called odd

when I rant about fascism in america to the clueless, I guess I am ODD and proud of it.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. If you're past adolescence, then you're not ODD.

At least according to any credible medical criteria that I've been able to find. Good luck finding an actual psychiatrist who will give you that diagnosis.

[dotymed]

25. Lol, I am somewhat past adolescence

and I do not want that diagnosis.
I want an America for and by the people, the majority.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Posting urban legend as fact.

According to all sources that I've looked at, it is described exclusively as a disorder of children and adolescents.

According to Wikipedia (admittedly not the best source, but then, neither is yours) it has been recognized in the DSM since 1980, so is not a "new" disorder. It is also recognized by the WHO, though with somewhat different criteria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

I have seen not a single legitimate medical source where ODD was in any way equated with adult nonconformity or being a freethinker.

This is the guy responsible for your claims:

"My name is Sofo. I hold a BSc in Psychology and an MA in Philosophy, although to me true knowledge comes only through experience and not from parrot-like learning. I deeply enjoy traveling, long walks and late-night conversations, but what I enjoy most is just being part of this wonder-full existence."

Doesn't sound like a terribly reliable source to me.

We have enough real problems in this country. We don't need to fixate on invented conspiracy theories.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Yes, ODD has been around since DSM-III (1980), and Yes it's a disorder of childhood.

It is seen as a sort of precursor to Conduct Disorder. If the "symptoms" persist into adulthood, it is labelled Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Wherever you see ODD, look very carefully at the child's environment. As far as I'm concerned, ODD is often a childhood form of "raging against the Machine." The preponderance of ODD kids are opposing and defying crazy and intolerable circumstances in their lives.

[MrMickeysMom]

22. I don't follow DSM data really, but was interested...

In order to be anti-social as an infant, or pre-adult, it would have to be compared to norms of THAT society, mainly "the home environment, and some school and play, where other adults are still responsible for that norm.

I'd say the norms have changed since 1980, when the entire homeless environment got tweaked a la Reagan et al… Sounds like they'll need a new panel of "experts" to re-evaluate the "disorder".

[YarnAddict]

66. I don't think environment is the answer

I have a niece who probably fits the ODD bill. My sister once described her daughter's behavior as "No one is going to tell her what to do." No one included parents, teachers, grandparents, and everyone else. And she was that way from birth! She simply refused to sit in a stroller, a high chair, a car seat, and if you actually made her, she screamed bloody murder til you let her out! Later she skipped school to the point where they were threatening to throw her in ail for truancy. She was in and out of trouble for years. She finally sorted things out for herself when she had her own child. Claims he saved her life. She could finally see what she was doing and what she needed to do to turn things around.

Her younger brother, raised in the same environment, was the most compliant child ever.

[Jackpine Radical]

72. I think I was fairly careful not to be absolutist in my comment.

However, my database is a couple thousand criminals I did psych evaluations on across a couple of decades, and there were certainly some patterns there.

All behavior is the result of an interaction between environment & inherent traits. Some people do well in any given reasonable environment, while others will be driven up the wall by being forced to sive in the same environment.

[zeemike]

29. He is a nut case for sure.

Anyone who likes long walks and late-night conversations is suspect.

[Crunchy Frog]

35. Nothing wrong with liking long walks and late-night conversation

It just doesn't indicate any level of medical expertise.

I tend to think that anyone giving those as their credentials is probably posting information that's highly colored by their own biases and agendas.

That's just me though. Everyone is entitled to utilize their own criteria for determining what they think are the most accurate sources of information.

[arcane1]

58. Hey, you keep your calm rationality out of this! You hear?

[nolabear]

78. Thanks. You're exactly right. The OP is completely w/o merit.

[truebluegreen]

13. automatic gain-saying...

[Voice for Peace]

17. no it isn't.

[awoke_in_2003]

49. Yes it is.

[truebluegreen]

56. Heh.

[loudsue]

14. If this is really true, that is a VERY dangerous precedent.

This book is used extensively in court cases, and in cases involving placement in detention homes, etc. Some school counselor can brand a kid in a really bad way with this kind of diagnosis, and the legal system can have a field day with someone who needs to be controlled.... Malcom X, Jesse Jackson? Hell, even Al Sharpton! Bill Maher? This is a bad bad diagnosis tool.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. This has been happening for decades now. ODD isn't new.

[loudsue]

20. Wow. That really sucks.

There needs to be a different definition for non-conformists.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. ODD does not refer to adult non-conformists.

One of my issues with DU is the tendency to take any post at face value, without doing any of one's own fact checking or independent verification. A five minute Google search will debunk most of the claims made by the OP.

I'm not saying there are no potential problems with the diagnosis, but, as has been pointed out, it's been around since 1980.

As nearly as I can tell, being an adult non-conformist has not yet been made into an illness, though I wouldn't rule out its happening at some future point.

[Wounded Bear]

18. Well, I read the thread...

So, it's a disorder of childhood.....OK.

The Repubs in Congress have been acting rather childish and obstructionist. I say we have a match!

[davidthegnome]

19. Hmm

Well, I'm outraged and I have PTSD. However, if I were otherwise "perfectly normal" and NOT outraged, I would consider that a far more likely symptom of mental illness. This ODD reminds me of something they called "Adolescent Rebellion Disorder" or something like that. I mean, good luck meeting a kid who does NOT have that one.

There are irresponsible physicians who will eagerly pull out that prescription pen just to shut these kids up - or to shut their parents up. Yet there are those who, more logically, would scoff at the notion. Psychiatry has a very... hmm... "colorful" history of inventing deranged cures for imagined illnesses. When it comes to dealing with the real thing though, the success rate is rather limited. It's not because Doctors and social workers don't care, or don't try. It's because our understanding of the human mind is still very infantile.

All that having been said - this kind of nonsense seems to make a mockery of real mental illness and trauma. It is particularly insulting to people like me who must live with it. The only thing truly ODD here, is that anyone at all takes this kind of nonsense seriously... especially supposed medical professionals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You mean this is not fiction?

I should put down the pen.

On the other hand, this goes straight to the research notes

[idendoit]

23. Not the way diagnosis reads in DSM-V.

As usual non-clinicians read things into diagnostic criteria that are not there. There is clear guidance on the frequency typically needed for a behavior to be considered symptomatic of the disorder.

[jtuck004]

33. Be careful how otten you point that out. The same article mentions "arrogance, narcissism" too.n/t

[idendoit]

36. Not how manual the reads.

The article claims that this is a diagnosis from the DSM-IV, which is no longer in use.

[jtuck004]

42. It was from the DSM-IV, as stated. And it exists in the DSM-V, and has been changed. n/t

[treestar]

54. OP article is indeed silly

People getting outraged about what they don't know about and don't fully understand, without even trying to understand. Do they think the entire psychiatric profession is now helping out the 1% or what ridiculous theory they can come up with? Maybe the DSM needs a category for outrage junkies.

[nilesobek]

71. If you fanatically resist

the powers that be could set up mental health courts prior to having "troublesome," persons removed. This whole country is smelling like Russia during communism. The message is, "just take whatever happens calmly and keep your thoughts to yourself."

[treestar]

84. No it's a very specific DSM category

Which in a place like Russia - the symptoms of it might not be tolerated and treated as a mental disorder.

[Ichingcarpenter]

26. Krishnamurti quote

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

Jiddu Krishnamurti


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jiddukrish107856.html#2TKGRpsvpf4sCRMW.99

[pinboy3niner]

45. + a brazillion! nt

[L0oniX]

27. If you are NOT outraged you must have had a lobotomy or live under a rock.

[JNelson6563]

31. Oh dear gawd, we have an epidemic!!1!

Of course I call it emotional immaturity but that probably wouldn't convince people they need expensive drugs so I can see why they chose the title they did.

Julie

On edit: I am referring to the list of symptoms in article only. Being outraged about the injustices that go on every day, everywhere is quite reasonable IMO. What you do with it though, that is where things can go wrong.

[dlwickham]

32. it's a childhood disorder

Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a childhood disorder described by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) as an ongoing pattern of anger-guided disobedience, hostility, and defiant behavior toward authority figures that goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior. Children suffering from this disorder may appear very stubborn and often angry. A diagnosis of ODD cannot be given if the child presents with conduct disorder (CD).[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder

- The child often loses control of himself;
- The child behaves aggressively;
- The kid argues with his parents and other adults and do not obey to them;
- The child deliberately irritates others;
- The kid is apathetic or cannot play with other children;
- The child with oppositional defiant disorder is often angry or nervous;
- The kid refuses to comply with the rules (at school and at home);
- The child is too stubborn;
- The kid often occur hysterical attacks;
- The child with oppositional defiant disorder cannot communicate normally with other children;
- The kid does not want to study or engage in other organized activities;
- The child with oppositional defiant disorder symptoms remembers the hurt for a long time and do not forget to remind about them.

http://oppositional-defiantdisorder.net/

of course it sounds more like the kid is nothing more than just a brat

[L0oniX]

46. More drugs for our children ...hurry!

[enlightenment]

34. Being a teen is now a condition.

That will work out great for the pharmaceutical companies. Drug them into compliance and when they turn 18 they're magically cured.

[MineralMan]

39. Needing some topic to blog about, this writer

deliberately or mistakenly got the whole thing wrong. You have to love the Internet. It allows random people to post incorrect stuff freely and helps to disseminate such incorrect writings.

Thanks for helping to spread this further.

Now, I shall turn my attention to my upcoming essay about the disastrous effect of the bee propolis shortage on world health and its impact on nuclear proliferation.

[dsharp88]

41. I always said the Republican Congress is mentally ill.

Their unjustified obstruction of anything mentioned by Obama, including their own ideas, proves it.

[mountain grammy]

47. I'll second that!

[L0oniX]

48. Hey! Be nice! Racism IS a mental illness too.

[mountain grammy]

44. Sounds like most teenagers thoughout the years, myself included.

Lot's of money to be made here, past, present and future.

[WinkyDink]

53. Can you say "Ritalin"? I thought you could!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

51. It all depends. If such behaviors and attitudes are chronic

And significantly interfere with one's life then it probably could be called mental illness.

[chknltl]

55. I agree with everyone else

I am not nuts but I am convinced that everyone else is.

[1monster]

57. I've been around kids labeled ODD and they were extreme... not just kids in need of

discipline (self and otherwise). I'm not sure if it is a mental disorder, but it is certainly something beyond nonconformity. These kids need structure, consistancy, counseling, and therapy.

I don't belive that ODD should be a diagnosis, however, but is definitely a symptom and can be used to help find the underlying cause of the symptom.

[gopiscrap]

63. Welcome to DU

[radicalliberal]

60. IMO this is a very dangerous view.

I could be wrong; but it seems to me that many, if not most, social reform movements have been started by nonconformists.

[Crunchy Frog]

67. It would be even more dangerous

if anyone in the psychiatric profession were actually promoting it.

The article in question has nothing to do with reality.

I will save my alarm for if they ever actually do come up with something that pathologizes non-conformity.

[sendero]

61. This is nothing new..

... and as far as I know is generally only applied to children.

[Dirty Socialist]

62. "Where's The Outrage???"

- "Bonkers" Bob Dole.

[LWolf]

64. I have to call bullshit.

Yes, various conditions can be over-diagnosed and mistreated.

But Oppositional Defiant Disorder is REAL.

I know. My grandson was diagnosed, once we got him away from his very troubled mother and got him the physical and mental health treatment he needed.

We're not talking about people who question authority, who think independently, who resist conformity. I do all of those things myself; hence my screen name on DU and the consistent attacks here for not being a good enough Democrat. So does my son, his father, who is even more so than I. Neither of us, though, is ODD.

ODD is an extreme. It has several causes. In my grandson's case, neglect, abuse, lack of supervision, inconsistent and harsh discipline through the age of 4...definitely.

The person with ODD has control issues, and takes those issues beyond the edge of extreme. Even at the age of 3 or 4. They will do ANYTHING to "win," including endangering and hurting themselves and others. They don't respond to the ways most kids learn civility or how to make appropriate choices. Adults in their family have to be trained to go outside their own experiences to make any progress at all.

They don't need medication, unless it's addressing a related condition. They do need intensive therapy and training in self-management and choice making, and their families need training in how to interact with them to help move things in positive directions, rather than feeding the problem.

This blog was written by an anonymous person referencing an article written by someone only identified as "Andrew," with no last name, no qualifications given for the statements made. When "Andrew" has had to put a 4 yo into a restraining hold to keep him from extreme violence to himself and others around him; when he's stood under a very tall tree, terrified that the 4 yo will fall after he scrambled up faster than adults could reach him, afraid to climb after him for fear he would throw himself onto the rocks below, hoping that if he fell he could be caught, and knowing that no "coaxing" in the world would get him down; when he's had to chase a 4 yo over a fence and into miles of public forest that he could be lost in for way too long, with that 4 yo looking back at him with a feral grin because he was "winning;" when he's had to find a way to get a 4 yo to eat when he's made up his mind not to...for 2 days...when he's had a 4 yo unlatch his seatbelt and launch his arms around the driver's neck on the highway, only to take off across that highway in the midst of traffic when the car was pulled over for safety...

When he's had to give up his job so that he can show up at school at any given moment to remove his child; when his entire adult life is given to therapy, counseling, a special school for children with these kinds of problems, and all trips into the public arena are determined by whether or not the child is in a good enough place that day to do so safely...when it takes 8 years of all of that therapy and retraining to get to a point that the child can interact, privately and publicly, with civility and reasonable behavior, but STILL has control issues which he struggles to manage every day...

When he wants to give his full name and his qualifications to speak authoritatively about mental illness...

then "Andrew" can make pronouncements about whether or not ODD is real. Until then, I'll stick with my grandson's team of doctors and other acknowledged authorities whose credentials can be checked.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/oppositional-defiant-disorder/DS00630

http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Resource_Centers/Oppositional_Defiant_Disorder_Resource_Center/FAQ.aspx

http://smhp.psych.ucla.edu/qf/behaviorprob_qt/ODD.pdf

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/mental_health_disorders/oppositional_defiant_disorder_90,P02573/

Interestingly enough, when an ODD student enters our school, I'm the one called to assist the assigned teacher, or, if the child is in my grade level, he or she will be placed in my class. Why? Because there are specific strategies for working with these kids, and I've already been trained.

[Crunchy Frog]

70. +1000

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. I bet the folks fuming about the black guy in THEIR White House are all aflutter over this.

[Crunchy Frog]

69. They probably are, because believing in this is on a par with believing in birtherism.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

73. The funniest thing is a Moran claiming to be a Rebel as they represent The Establishment.

[nolabear]

74. Oh Honey, this Dx has been around forever. And it's a real disorder, though becoming obsolete.

It's not what you think. First, it's generally a child's diagnosis, and it's actually fallen in the pantheon as we understand more about attachment and emotional regulatory systems. You're barking up the wrong meme.

[diabeticman]

76. Tell me this is some freaking joke article from onion-type website.

[nolabear]

80. No, but it's a completely misinformed claim. Numerous debunkings in the thread.

ODD is a childhood Dx and is nothing like what is claimed in the OP. Trust me; I'm a professional.

[LeftyMom]

79. That's not what ODD is and ODD isn't a new diagnosis.

[Lint Head]

82. Perfect way to imprison people who do not agree with society or the government.

Declare them insane and a danger to society.

[1000words]

86. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

-- Krishnamurti

[Bandit]

87. As Sen Inhofe once said when americans were outraged to learn of our torture program

"I am outraged over the outrage"