NYT Editorial:Edward Snowden, Whistle-Blower

[cal04]

Last edited Thu Jan 2, 2014, 12:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Seven months ago, the world began to learn the vast scope of the National Security Agency’s reach into the lives of hundreds of millions of people in the United States and around the globe, as it collects information about their phone calls, their email messages, their friends and contacts, how they spend their days and where they spend their nights. The public learned in great detail how the agency has exceeded its mandate and abused its authority, prompting outrage at kitchen tables and at the desks of Congress, which may finally begin to limit these practices.

The revelations have already prompted two federal judges to accuse the N.S.A. of violating the Constitution (although a third, unfortunately, found the dragnet surveillance to be legal). A panel appointed by President Obama issued a powerful indictment of the agency’s invasions of privacy and called for a major overhaul of its operations.

All of this is entirely because of information provided to journalists by Edward Snowden, the former N.S.A. contractor who stole a trove of highly classified documents after he became disillusioned with the agency’s voraciousness. Mr. Snowden is now living in Russia, on the run from American charges of espionage and theft, and he faces the prospect of spending the rest of his life looking over his shoulder.

Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=0


Edward Snowden, Whistle-Blower
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
Considering the value of his leaks and the N.S.A. abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden should be offered clemency or a plea bargain.
http://www.nytimes.com/

[Luminous Animal]

1. Excellent OpEd.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Wait for it.....

[Skittles]

11. the swooners?

[last1standing]

3. We will soon hear how "Comrade Eddie" is a traitor for not staying to face charges...

How he is a dirty libertarian...

How he dated a stripper...

How he didn't unpack the boxes in his garage...

How he should single handedly undue Russia's anti-homosexual laws...

How he didn't reveal anything new but how that old info has compromised national security...

But under all the excuses and bullshit charges against him, the real objection he faces at DU is that he hurt Obama's feelings.

[Broward]

4. Yes, Snowden's whistleblowing reflects very poorly on Obama.

That's just too much for some people to handle.

[last1standing]

5. What's sad is that it didn't have to reflect poorly on Obama. It was entirely his choice.

He could have honored the Constitution and the American People by moving to correct the problems with illegal and unethical surveillance, but he instead sided with moles like Clapper who crave power for power's sake.

It's not too late for Obama to do the change his mind and come down on the right side of history.

[elzenmahn]

8. Such As Ed Schultz and Melissa Harris-Perry

Mr. Schultz referred to Snowden as a "punk" soon after his revelations, and Prof. Harris-Perry's mocking "open letter" to him were two of the biggest reasons why I no longer watch MSNBC.

[20score]

33. Same here. Too much for me to take.

That was some really insulting propaganda.

[gulliver]

6. Um, the NYT published Snowden's stuff

So...

[Hissyspit]

16. So...

what?

[ucrdem]

35. Book 'em, Dano.

p.s. to Cha for the pic

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. knr

[ifyousayso]

9. Nyet

If he had exposed only what the NSA was doing "at home", I could agree with that editorial, but Snowden revealed more than that. He intended to harm the U.S. So, no, I don't think he deserves a break at all.

[Luminous Animal]

10. So the rest of the world deserves no privacy? That is a right only for us exceptional wonderful

human beings? Thank god I am an Amurikkkan and screw the rest of the world.

[ifyousayso]

15. Snowden is a Chinese hero, not an American hero.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-edward-snowden-escalated-cyber-war-1461

[lark]

21. Snowden reported on America violating it's own laws and constitution - period.

China will always twist and spin to cover their own misdoings. Snowden didn't help them with their spying, he's just their excuse de jour. They were lying before about their spying previously and now they're lying still - no real change. This is on the par with his girlfriend was a stripper, BFD to both.

[treestar]

22. They were following the laws we have

They had a FISA warrant. Eddie decided our laws were not good enough.

[2banon]

31. LOL!

fisa warrant?

[treestar]

44. That's the system of laws we have right now.

Were you complaining before this? Since the 1970s, when that law passed? Did you know before that there were no checks on the President at all?

[2banon]

47. you mean since the days of COINTELPRO? uh, yeah.

That's when i learned that the FBI and the CIA was involved in domestic spying, eavesdropping vis a vis phone tapping, surveillance and compiling dossiers on dissidents and anti-war protesters, as well as political office holders, etc etc etc.. all domestic. That's when I learned how campaign and election engineering were manipulated vis a vis phone and wire tapping, (bugging homes and offices) using blackmail or outright planting "evidence" pointing to or manufacturing misconduct or other misdeed to smear political rivals. That's when I learned about the evils of the 1947 National Security Act, and how it became institutionalized.

I'm not talking about spying on Foreign operatives conducting espionage in the U.S.A.

I'm talking about spying on American Citizens.

That's why I say that Act needs to be repealed, and the apparatus taken down, because once our rights are taken away, they're never to be seen again.

The Church Committee hearings were revealing, but the solutions that the committee came up with were woefully IN-adequate at best. Even for the times.

The Patriot Act(s) sealed the deal forever. These were and are a complete travesty, decimating the very heart of our Constitution any genuine sense of freedom and democracy.

The FISA Court is a complete joke. It can't be dressed up enough to be anything but a joke.

Not a very funny one at that.

[treestar]

51. If the FISA were repealed it would be back to the way it was

The Executive could do whatever it wanted. Didn't need a warrant of any kind. That's how the FISA came about. It represents a check - it gives out warrants. If you think it's a "joke" then without it, there is nothing at all, not even a "joke."

If you think federal court warrants are to be obtained for spying, have at it. Should these be public proceedings, so the targets can know all about it before they are spied on? Because all targets are innocent, right? Just don't cry when something happens to us due to inefficient and ineffective national security measures.

[2banon]

54. That's why we have to abolish the 1947 National Security Act that created the monster in the first

place. And everything should be public. Everything. That's the only way any meaningful form of democracy works. Without complete public scrutiny over our governance and all of it's functions is the meaning of totalitarian state.

[treestar]

57. OMG

So you admit we should have no national security at all.

[2banon]

59. straw man.

Of course we should have national security. against FOREIGN ENEMIES. Good Grief!

The National Security Act did not then, and does not now protect American Citizens from the abuses that has THEN and NOW been perpetrated against United Sates Citizens.

Do you really NOT get that this is what the issue is all about??

Or are you merely feigning ignorance on this point hence throwing one straw man after another that has no bearing to the matter of concern, protection of United States citizens from the Tyranny of the State? You know, what our Constitution was about before it was officially declared DEAD, DEAD, DEAD by Scalia.

[treestar]

60. Who do you count as foreign enemies?

And how can you avoid, in the modern world, transparency to all Americans also being transparency to all foreigners?

And there are domestic enemies. People who spy for other nations or work against us.

Common sense. We can't let it all hang out.

[2banon]

61. I refer you to this

for your edification:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024270922

[treestar]

62. Doesn't seem relevant to our sub thread

NSA material can't be used in criminal courts at any rate. That would also make it public. And subject to challenge from defendant.

Looks like a built up CT sort of thread all over the place talking about several different things, trying to string them together to make something, a la CTers everywhere.

[2banon]

63. I see.

[lark]

52. +1

[Psephos]

38. Their FISA warrant makes everything all right?

The one issued by the secret court that's invisible to the public, in service to a black-budget espionage agency headed by a guy who flat-out lies to Congress?

Stop it, you're killin' me.

[2banon]

41. Well Done!

my side hurts for laughing so much!

[treestar]

45. Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch

Learn something about how it came about! And if you think it's so bad, what do you propose for an alternative? That's the system we have, which is likely more than any other country has or ever had. If it's all not good enough for you, at least you could campaign for what you suggest is preferable.

[2banon]

48. If it's all not good enough for you, at least you could campaign for what you suggest is preferable.

If it's all not good enough for you, at least you could campaign for what you suggest is preferable.

That's exactly what we're doing.

[treestar]

50. NO, you are not

I have not seen one single suggestion. Just a lot of HOF about how terrible the government currently is.

[2banon]

53. then you need to pull the veil up from your eyes.

Not that I actually expect meaningful change on the level I'd prefer to see it.. but the collective "HOF" as you frame it, is having an impact.. and that's a mighty good thing.

Now, I've just personally put forth the idea of repealing all Patriot Act laws, and I go further. Abolishing the 1947 National Security Act, and it's apparatus. Others have also made suggestions, but you seem to ignore.

Now I'm not naive to believe or think that these have a chance in hell of getting accomplished in toto, but we can continue to push for significant and meaningful reform.

There seems to be some movement toward that end finally starting with tech giants (pretending they didn't know what was going on, and feigning innocence), but I'm not holding my breath for change tomorrow or assuming anything is going to change ever without a huge, long slogging fight with fascists authoritarians and/or defenders of the status quo among us.

[treestar]

56. Where would that leave us?

And what are you doing to get the Patriot Act repealed? And the 1947 Act? Just where would that leave us?

And you haven't mentioned the FISA, so I guess you'd leave that alone?

[2banon]

58. straw man, much?

[struggle4progress]

24. ... "Snowden couldn't have played better into China's strategy ..." ...

[cstanleytech]

42. Mmm if we follow that logic then the person who revealed that Valerie Plame was an agent for the CIA

must be a hero to right?

[treestar]

46. I suspect you won't get an answer to that one.

We have no right whatsoever to any secrecy/spying/national security in their view, so you're right, why should Plame have not been transparent about what she was doing? Or, she should not have been doing it at all.

[frylock]

49. perhaps he is, but let me ask you..

why do you give a fuck what the right thinks?

[SciFiRK]

28. Then he fled to China and then Russia

No he does not deserve whistle blower status. The foreign stuff would have come out eventually with the domestic stuff, but he was just trying to set himself up in a foreign country.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. "He intended to harm the U.S."

Define how he harmed the USA by revealing the extent and outright willingness it has shown in spying on everything and everybody.

[merrily]

67. Do you think that exposing something about the US in the US never leaves our borders?

That was not even so before the internet, cell phones and the rest of post 1970 technology. Now it takes seconds.

Do you think terrorists did not already know about our surveillance? Bin Laden never used the internet or a phone. Do you think heads of state of other countries did not know? (Remember, Merkel complained only about her personal cell phone, not about any government phones--and many thought even her complaint about her personal phone was a charade.

The only people mostly in the dark about mass surveillance by the US were Americans.

I don't think Snowden intended to harm the US at all, nor do I think that he did harm it.

Telling us our constitutional rights were being violated routinely is not harming the US. Then again, to my mind, what makes the US is the Constitution.

[ificandream]

70. Agreed.

I fully agree. This was not the Pentagon Papers 2013.

[malaise]

12. K & R

for truth

[boston bean]

14. Good. I hope the tide is actually turning and he gets to come home.

He deserves whistleblower status.

[woo me with science]

17. +100000 Thank you, Edward Snowden.

[Psephos]

39. Yes, thank you to Ed Snowden. He redefined what it means to speak truth to power.

And he redefined what heroism means in the 21st century. History will treat him well. The powers that be will not.

“Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.”

- George Orwell, 1984

[woo me with science]

18. kick

[WillyT]

19. K & R !!!

[Jack Rabbit]

20. He should be sentenced to free meals in the Prytaneum

What shall be done to such a one? Doubtless some good thing, O men of Athens, if he has his reward; and the good should be of a kind suitable to him. What would be a reward suitable to a poor man who is your benefactor, who desires leisure that he may instruct you? There can be no more fitting reward than maintenance in the Prytaneum, O men of Athens, a reward which he deserves far more than the citizen who has won the prize at Olympia in the horse or chariot race, whether the chariots were drawn by two horses or by many. For I am in want, and he has enough; and he only gives you the appearance of happiness, and I give you the reality. And if I am to estimate the penalty justly, I say that maintenance in the Prytaneum is the just return.

From The Apology by Plato, where Socrates proposes an alternative sentence after being found guilty of impiety and corrupting the youth of Athens.

[struggle4progress]

23. Socrates may not be the wonderful comparison you imagine: our account comes primarily

from his staunchly anti-democratic pupil, Plato, and the Spartan Xenophon, who also is known as preferring oligarchy to democracy

The very interesting book (by I.F. Stone, an important investigative journalist of the Cold War era) on the trial of Socrates makes a credible case that Athens sentenced Socrates to death for a perceived role in encouraging anti-democratic activity in Greece

[Jack Rabbit]

25. I acknowledge you argument against Plato/Socrates

I certainly wouldn't want to live in The Republic.

Nevertheless, one of the paradoxes of a democratic state is that each citizen must be free to put forward his own ideas of what is best for the state. On those grounds I can defend Phil Robertson, to say nothing of Socrates. I learn from Socrates (although not from Phil Robertson). He provokes great thoughts which make putting up with his undemocratic sentiments worthwhile. Yes, I would say that he deserved rewards greater than an Olympic champion, whose names have been forgotten over two millennia.

Also, the Spartans didn't need Socrates or Plato to justify antidemocratic sentiments. It came naturally to them, just as it does to neoconservatives or Ayn Rand's followers.

[struggle4progress]

27. Sparta defeated Athens in the Peloponnesian War and established the short-lived dictatorship

of the Thirty (led by Critias) in 404 BCE, resulting in the murders of one or two thousand Athenians before the tyrants were overthrown at Piraeus the following year

Socrates' association with Critias (and his friend Alcibiades) was one basis for the charges in Socrates' 399 BCE trial

[Jack Rabbit]

34. I am well aware of Sparta's imposition of the Thirty Tyrants on Athens

However, I do not believe that the Spartans were influenced by either Socrates or Plato. I know of no evidence that they were, and the Spartans just didn't like democracy anyway.

Alcibiades and Socrates were lovers. Frankly, I don't know what Alcibiades thought about any subject, although he clearly enjoyed sex and other sensual pleasures. I doubt that their relationship influenced Socrates' opposition to democracy, either. Socrates and Plato professed a philosophical theory that holds that Truth (with a capital T) is discoverable by discursive reasoning and is therefore independent of popular will or public opinion. While I agree that Truth has nothing to do with public opinion, I also believe it is too complicated to be discovered or adequately communicated to any mere mortal. That gave Socrates and Plato a tendency to be authoritarian and elitist (we should be ruled by philosopher-kings), while I find so-called authorities to be pretty much self-appointed and self-interested, not guardians of Truth.

Alcibiades acted as he did to save his skin. He wasn't the first man to defect to the enemy when things got too hot for comfort at home. That, too, had nothing to do with Socrates.

[2banon]

30. interesting, thanks.. n/t

[bvar22]

26. DURec for Snowden and the Whistle Blowers.

Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.

Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.

Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.

Secret Laws/Secret Courts and Democracy can not co-exist.

Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.

It IS that simple.
You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.

[AllyCat]

36. +1

[2banon]

29. Me too! k&R for Snowden, and whistleblowers n/t

[20score]

32. Thank you Snowden! My ideals will never change because a leader gets things wrong.

[davidpdx]

40. I disagree with them

I am against spying, but also against clemency. Any offer that would be made would be summarily dismissed anyway as he'd just say it wasn't good enough.

[woo me with science]

43. Kick. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

[Titonwan]

55. Thanks, cal04

Edward Snowden is a patriot. K&R

[Helen Borg]

65. Everybody seems to forget...

That even if the US Government gave Snowden some kind of amnesty, it would not be safe for him to be back. The word of the US Government is worth squat these days. The only way it could happen is if he kept critical documents as "insurance policy". But for that to work, the US Government would need to know about it, and if they knew they would not give him an amnesty. So, IMO Snowden will have to be abroad for the rest of his life.

[Helen Borg]

66. You often hear the "wise" words...

"learn to accept what you cannot change" from positive psychology. Anyone in Snowden's job could use these words for comfort, and continue doing what they are doing without feeling bad about it. After all, what could they do about it? This is always the big dilemma: how do I know that I cannot change things? How hard should one try? At what personal risk?

[merrily]

68. The NYT seldom prints anything anymore without clearing it with the USG.

So, this is nice, but I wish that the NYT and other media would finally return to the role contemplated for media by the First Amendment.

[Titonwan]

69. Of course he should be granted full amnesty, pardon or exoneration.

After all... he's exposed that we really don't have a shit's ass chance of redeeming in this totalitarian state we happen to suffer now. History, if nothing else, is a causal refutation that some are 'better' than others. When situations become untenable, the poor will strike out- the only problem is when you have 'Full Spectrum Dominance' (h/t necon/liberal belief) is that you reduce creativity. Only the silver spoons up their asses and those that will suck their collective dick will advance. That's not a prime indicator of intelligence. It only illustrates how far corporations have said you are not worth much, so shut up and buy our products or do without.
As Digby brought up- There's an article at RollingStone about five ways out of this that is SOOOO radical it might make TeaFucks heads to explode.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/five-economic-reforms-millennials-should-be-fighting-for-20140103
You know what? Obama is bank owned (h/t Dick Durbin (D)). The security forces enforce the edicts of the ultra rich. Resources are stolen without accountability. I may ask you are we in the best nation to ever exist or just a more savvy version of Mayan culture where we worship the sun? (Right now, I'd say we're on the road to Apacolypto and the prescient forward by Will Durant: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.")
You've been duped again. Just like Slick Willie, Barack is a fake "progressive™" sellout and it's not gonna change in defending this crap. The way a lot of 'liberals/progreasives' in this fight think you have to be kind to get your way, but time has proven sometimes you have to fight. Remember, a fight first starts in the mind- you have a problem internally against something unjust- and you decide to take action. You can't be simply a keyboard commando with the 110 First Lame Brigade.
Granted, this country blows on how it established a democratic republic. I mean how can genocide on massive scale and slavery be a great thing to place on your resume if you still claim to be the best place ever. Great recompense is the answer but this, like most things, is only capable through great struggle (you know, like the socialist programs of the twenties through the forties where unions fought the injustice).
Edward Snowden is the new God, or he is the Demon. No matter how hard you try to ignore this is irrelevant, because contrary on what you are told to 'believe' (holy jeebus!) this isn't going away- It. Aint. Going. Away. Any. Time. Soon.
And 'that's a good thing'! (h/t Martha CrimeFood Stewart)
I got yer Obama love hangin'-

http://tinyurl.com/m59qowu

[woo me with science]

71. Edward Snowden deserves the Medal of Freedom.

[woo me with science]

72. Thank you, Edward Snowden

[LiberalLovinLug]

73. Good call NYT

They should repeal the Patriot Act and replace it with privacy safeguards and with public oversight reviews every year. And then it should be re-named the Snowden Act.

[woo me with science]

74. kick