I love DU but I'd be reluctant to recommend it

[Live and Learn]

to anyone lately due to all the recent "wars" here.

I don't mind an occasional debate on obscure, inconsequential or even slightly relevant but highly controversial topics, but the numerous sagas (and antagonism displayed in them) do an injustice to what I consider DU to represent.

What I mean, is that the majority of people that come here are looking for like minded individuals to have a meaningful discourse with on ways to make life the best for all of mankind, animals and our planet.

With all of the things going on that are preventing progress and even endangering progress in these areas that has been made, some of the current DU topics seem a bit, embarrassing to show to progressives that might otherwise be interested in joining.

[Recursion]

1. "Recent"? God help you when the 2016 primaries roll around

You should have been here in '04 or '08. This is nothing.

[Live and Learn]

2. I was. And I wasn't reluctant then.

The "wars" then were at least mainly political (though not the antagonism was still there) and thereby relevant to the cause.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. There are many forums on DU besides GD.

I wouldn't recommend DU to most people, though, because most people probably wouldn't really like it or fit in very well. I would recommend it to the right person, although I never have.

I've never seen anybody here in person, much less know anyone. I really don't think any of my friends would really get into DU as much as I do. When I tell any of them about something I saw here or a discussion I had, I always preface it by saying, "I read something online that said that..." or "I was on a discussion board online and someone told me....".

[Live and Learn]

4. I have recommended it many times.

Usually after someone is interested in what I say and wants to know more. I consider a good source of information.

But when a person comes on, the first thing they see is the home page and (at least if they are anything like me) the latest threads. And there within lies the trouble when the "wars" are at their most prolific.

[LuvNewcastle]

5. Yeah, I know what you mean. We look silly sometimes.

I'm more concerned about turning off lurkers than anyone else. A lot of people come here to get their news, which I think is a wonderful thing. I can't think of a better place than DU for people to get their news and commentary. But if some people get turned off and go elsewhere for their news, there's no telling where they'll get it. Still, I guess we can't be overly concerned about that all the time. Sometimes we have to just let DU be DU.

[Live and Learn]

6. True. I guess the last few days have gotten to me.

You are correct, it is a great source and it can get silly. Hopefully, a cease fire will happen soon in the latest "war".

[Live and Learn]

8. That one always makes me cringe.

Sometimes a poster is obviously here to antagonize but even then I don't see the need for such behavior. It certainly doesn't win anyone over to our side and degrades us in my opinion.

It is often used based upon the supposition that simply having a low post count invalidates an opinion. Not really a progressive or liberal view in my opinion either and it reminds me of those on the other side that think not having an adequate amount of money invalidates one's opinion.

[Live and Learn]

12. Well said, it contradicts our very values. nt

[The Straight Story]

16. It is stereotyping/bias and is done a lot around here on some things

Own a gun or don't mind if your fellow citizen is allowed to by those in power? You are a gun nut/humper/wanna be thug killer (and if you speak up about it you are in the nra and think killing is just fine --- all of this when less than one percent of gun owners use them in a bad way).

Home school your kids? You are a brainwashed jeebus bot and your kids are being abused because a few other people who have home schooled that someone knows did stupid things. Public schools run by the government are the only logical choice people should be forced to make because, on your own, you again (as with guns) cannot be trusted.

The longer the read the more you will see some topics will get you slapped with an immediate bias that will stay with you until you totally renounce your ideals and fall in line. And good god whatever you do don't mention that you eat at the olive garden, smoke, look at any kind of porn, do nice things for others like open doors, drink any kind of tea or do something natural and claim it makes you feel better (unless the claim is about pot - then there is no woo), and don't mention pit bulls.

There is a much longer list but the person maintaining it was sent to a dungeon somewhere

[Live and Learn]

21. lol Loved that last line. nt

[get the red out]

40. Great post

It gets hard to keep in mind what not to ever mention.

[arikara]

67. LOL... that's all the truth

and its all getting to me lately too. I find myself spending less and less time here because of a few rude assholes who gang up on anyone with an alternative viewpoint to their very narrow minded one.

[treestar]

22. You said something that sounded like a conservative

Though that person could have been mistaken or overreacting.

There are tons of right wing trolls here, so people are sensitive.

[Live and Learn]

28. Guilty until proven innocent? nt

[treestar]

46. No, I don't think there is a way to prove anything anyway.

Some trolls are quite obvious and MIRT gets them. The DUer comments will show awareness. But then some DUers may be oversensitive in some cases. A newbie may not know of things that just aren't said without argument on DU and find themselves in a bind. It is part of the hazing of joining DU.

[hfojvt]

63. tons?

That's the beauty of the paranoia. It has everybody jumping at shadows and looking for snipes.

Why not just debate people's conservative ideas instead of trying to relegate them to some enemy camp?

As I said before, in meta, so I cannot link to it



"yes

anyone who roots for Lebron James is clearly a troll.

Opposing deficit spending is just silly, and as any tradfitional economist would tell you counter-cyclical. In the last 150 years, the Federal Government has probably run deficits in 140 of them, and we have done just fine. In WWII, the debt was greater than the GDP and the country did just fine. In fact, we prospered.

One of the troubles with supposed trolls, is that we, as Americans are swimming in a sea of excrement, crap that fills the airwaves and newspapers and books and the internet. False ideas and lies and distortions and propaganda - excrement. Our public discourse is so full of excrement that everybody who swims in it is bound to get some in their mouth, or in their head, and then spew it out like its not some crap that was catapaulted into their mind.

Some people, true trolls, embrace the crap, believe enough of it that they have gone over to the dark side.

Yet others, sincerely believe themselves to be on the side of the angels, are faithful followers of brother Dee Morris, and belong to the Antioch Wiccan church* and yet, because they, like all of us, are swimming in a sea of excrement, have accidentally swallowed some bad ideas - like the Balanced Budget Amendment.

All too quickly, we, the pure liberals, suspect the latter of being one of the former.

My position is, that even if they are right in their suspicions, we should still treat both the same. We should try to win them over to our side, by offering the hand of friendship as well as a relentless barrage of facts and logic. We should try to persuade and educate those who disagree with us, even though we are likely to find that NOBODY, not even US, ever wants to admit that they are wrong, and efforts to persuade will often be met by stubborn resistance following Newton's Second Law of Arguments.** But still I think it is better to try, and to have malice towards none, to try to win people to our side rather than driving them away with contempt and aspersions as not being sufficiently pure or enlightened.

And finally, who is that trip-trapping on my bridge?

*(inside joke - this is a parody of Charlie Daniels' "Uneasy rider" where the redneck, after being accused of having voted for George McGovern, defends himself saying "I am a faithful follower of Brother John Birch, I belong to the Antioch Baptist Church ...&quot

** Newton's Second Law of Arguments is a parody of Newton's Second Law of Motion - "for every argument there is an equal but opposite counter argument (at least in the mind of the person making it)'

Although I note now that I said "Dee Morris" instead of "Morris Dees". Uffda.

[oldhippie]

42. There are certain forbidden ......

.... opinions and words that you may not express or use. You will come to find out what they are by either observation or offense and hidden posts.

[Eleanors38]

48. I got the same thing when I first posted here in '06.

None of these "greeters" knew of my left-of-center politics, or my decades of activism. None were interested. They just focused on my pro-2A stance.

It seems at times the louder and more obnoxious they are the more power they have on DU.

I no longer make blanket recs. to friends.

[PDittie]

10. Yes. Way too much

inside baseball, kool-kid BS lately.

Leave it in the Lounge, please (which I have on Ignore)

[mdbl]

11. I'm glad DU isn't idiot friendly

I have been reading DU for many years, my main draw being the Top 10 Conservative Idiots, which I dearly miss. I come here to escape the lunacy of the right wing. Most of them I know personally fit in the categories of,

greedy
racist
or dumb as a stump.

Regressives, or another word being republicans don't come here for an intelligent discussion. They come her to spew their lunacy nonsense. If you talk to most of them IRL, they fall under the "dumb as a stump" category. But they listen to Rush Bimbo one day and all of a sudden they think they have intelligence by parroting garbage. Throw in Fux Noise, and you have a poster that I, for one, can't even tolerate. I like the fact that DU weeds them out.

If you find a progressive that has a problem reading DU, they probably aren't a progressive.

[Live and Learn]

13. I would think the "regressives" would be having a field day with some

of our recent threads.

[mdbl]

14. Only those who think they possess intelligence

They don't know they are idiots.

[Live and Learn]

15. Fighting name calling with name calling, I see.

That is exactly the kind of retort I would expect from one of them. Personally, I don't think it works that well (at least with me).

Edited to add: I have been guilty of it too. But it doesn't work and it is juvenile.

[mdbl]

18. You can beat your head against a wall trying to speak intelligently to a right winger if you like

but name calling is the only thing they understand. I choose to use it as a way to dismiss people who have no brain of their own. Also, if you allow it, they will post tons of nonsense garbage all over this board, just like right wing talk radio grosses out the radio airwaves all day.

[Live and Learn]

23. I'll keep beating then, I guess.

I don't like the feeling when I behave like them.

[mdbl]

66. They don't behave.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. It has always been a bit wild and crazy here. There have always been those who jump to assumptions

on what they think someone else means. There have been those who have an all or nothing approach to certain issues. For example one of the most frequently visible dividing lines - There are those who cannot imagine any honest intentions from anyone who offers even a hint of anything that might even indirectly imply a criticism of the Obama Administration. Equally there are those who are completely outside of reality of what is politically plausible for any administration - as if they expected President Obama to govern like he is Noam Chomsky and feel betrayed that he does not. Both ends of that spectrum can appear unwelcoming to new posters.

There are those who cannot seem to imagine that any intelligent and intellectually honest progressive or liberal could have an opposing point of view with no ulterior motive. So, anyway I'm not sure that just your average liberal Democrat will find DU hospitable - and this is because of a relatively small number of dogmatic people who just cannot play nice.

[Live and Learn]

20. You are right.

I think it is a relatively small number that keep it going. I won't hesitate to recommend it in the future just while these "wars" are happening. I just wouldn't want anyone's first view to be what they would have seen the last few weeks. I would be at a loss to explain.

[woo me with science]

19. DU protects and fosters corporate-authoritarian propaganda.

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:54 AM - Edit history (3)

to pollute, destroy, replace, and disperse liberal discussion and organization online, just as Occupy rallies are dispersed in 3D.

The messaging on this site has in many ways evolved as the same sort of bait-and-switch corporate Trojan Horse operation as the current presidency.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4286001

[treestar]

24. People will talk about what they want to talk about

Board nannying isn't going to stop that. If you're too good for the thread, stay out of it. Why the need to have an OP to announce that you are too good for DU?

[Live and Learn]

25. Thank you for the perfect example of what I call an antagonistic reply.

I don't recall saying, I was too good for DU. Did I ever?

Do you really suppose Biden would agree with your tactics?

Bullying won't get you far with me and I shall retain the right to post on DU in accordance with the DU rules.

[treestar]

26. Threads complaining about what is on DU

Are always far more annoying than threads on the latest hot topic.

I get tired of people who are too superior - because in the end that's what it is. You think people shouldn't be discussing the latest hot topic and had to make an OP about it.

If people feel strongly about woo, or feminism, or whatever, why can't they talk about it without finger wagging?

[Live and Learn]

27. Annoying is, I guess, a matter of opinion, then.

I happen to love DU, at least in its intended purpose.

As far as me feeling superior, I trust that is a joke or are you simply using the right wing tactic of projecting your own failings (or superior feelings) onto others?

Talk all you want on a thread but must you take over DU with endless threads and antagonistic comments? Wouldn't a few threads do? Perhaps, you could ask for a forum to continue the discussions where the rest of us wouldn't be subjected to it?

And, I might add, I never called for the banning of such topics or of the antagonists. My hope was just that some might recognize the disservice they are doing to DU and the discomfort that these threads are causing some of us here.

I am not holding my breath that you will understand, but I hope you do.

[Katashi_itto]

33. Lol!! Same old tired insult to everyone that doesn't see things your way

Great RW tactic of projection there

[treestar]

45. All they have to do is stay out of the threads

My way is that people can talk about whatever they want; so why is that wronger than people who someone expect to stop posts on a particular topic they don't like? And why the need for the "I'm so superior, I don't lower myself to discuss it" posts?

The others are the ones who expect DU to be all their way. Your post is quite unfair.

[Katashi_itto]

47. No it's not unfair. You posted exactly the same sort of response to me out of the blue.

In different threads. You mange to still project.

[politicaljunkie41910]

61. One could also ask why you feel the need to respond to every post you might disagree with?

Can't you just let something you disagree with go? Or is it a numbers game with some of you? Working on that 43,000th post? I must have visited this website for 10 years before I ever posted for the first time. I did however view it as a source of information since I didn't have the time to visit every newspaper, magazine, website, blog, etc and I could easily decipher which posts I was interested in and which I wasn't. I also could tell rather quickly what the newsworthy topics of the day was, and also used it to supplement my local newspaper since I live in a conservative community. I do agree with the original OP that I would be reluctant to recommend it to others for fear that the loudest and most vocal here don't necessarily represent my viewpoints, though I am a self proclaimed progressive, and don't care whether I meet others here definition of what a true progressive is.

One of my initial posts was to ask why people felt the need to use vulgar language to make a point since, being a woman, I find it offensive and would tend to pass over such posts, perhaps missing out on some interesting information. My post was met with more vulgarity which to me spoke for itself. Mature, intellectual people ought to be able to have a conversation without being vulgar, unless the vulgarity is the point that one is trying to make. While perhaps there is a time and place when vulgarity might be called for to reinforce a point or an emotion, more often than not, the use of it does nothing to add to the debate at hand. But obviously others here disagreed with my viewpoint and I can live with that.

[customerserviceguy]

29. Eventually

we'll be united on fighting Republicons again, when Congress gets back in session and pisses us off.

[Live and Learn]

30. I guess that is one way to look at it.

But there are still plenty of real threats to discuss in the meantime.

[customerserviceguy]

65. Sure there are

but when Congress takes dead aim at something considered sacred here (please pardon the religious reference) then we will find focus.

[polichick]

31. Thought police are not progressive. If you want to see a certain topic...

start a thread.

[Live and Learn]

32. Good, then I am entitled to my thoughts correct?

Thank you for that. And this is my thread.

[polichick]

49. Except your thread is telling others what to think/post. Nice try.

[HangOnKids]

55. BAM!

The "this is my thread" was quite touching.

[HangOnKids]

57. Will there be foot stamping?

[Iggo]

34. I don't recommend it at all...

....and when I talk about it in real life, I don't even use the name. I just say "an internet message board that I post at." I use the information I gather here in conversation, and I'll pass along pics and links, but I never link to DU. Too embarassing. I didn't always do that, and it might be different in the future, but that's the way it is right now.

[Sheldon Cooper]

35. The misogyny that is unabashedly authorized and embraced here is enough to keep me from

recommending it to anyone.

[RC]

38. To say nothing about the thinly veiled misandry that keeps showing up on a regular basis.

That street runs both ways.

[HangOnKids]

58. Poor Men

Such a hard road.

[Comrade Grumpy]

62. I suppose one could respond with, "Oh, poor widdle wimmenz..."

...but that would be going down the same crappy road you have chosen.

[fadedrose]

36. "Lately" is the operative word in your post

We've been invaded by a steady stream of moderates who seem to feel we have no right to post or have an opinion different from theirs.....

[Romulox]

37. DU is a "centrist" website. That's key. Many of the "Wars" are attempts to distract from

unpleasant economic and social truths--e.g. NSA spying, Drug Wars, TPP, banister-bailouts ad nauseum.

Many don't want these issues discussed. So they distract.

[woo me with science]

52. Thank you.

But "centrist" is a euphemistic description of the sort of propaganda that is now routinely tolerated and protected here.

They are not "centrists." They are corporate fascists.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4222551

[Jamaal510]

69. DU is so centrist that actual self-proclaimed centrists

hardly hang on here. Are you sure it's not just a matter of some people here who are liberal, but have different concerns they care about more? (besides paranoia about the NSA somehow watching 300M people at once and acting like the program just started under Obama)

[mstinamotorcity2]

39. No since in being timid jump right in why don't you.

Strong discussion is great. Some subjects ops are bad. But most will get you knowledge. Since the election 08' Du has been infiltrated. Some silly "wars" are not ours. And are not initiated by a true DUer. We have lost a lot of good soldiers. There are still quite a few here. They look but do not post. Because they see a narrative they are unhappy with. True Duers see the bullshit a mile away. The only good thing about infiltration is the longer they are here, they learn. Don't get discouraged. We argue when we have an opinion that we believe valid. It is when you learn the most. It is when facts and real numbers come into play. Because when you learn the facts, you must change your opinion. To do anything else would mean you are republican. They do not believe in facts, science, or the truth.

[ananda]

41. I hear you.

This site has seriously degenerated into both ugly and trivial threads,
with some gems in between.

I know I'm missing some of the gems because so many of the ugly
and trivial ones are pushing them down.

[geek tragedy]

43. Same as it ever was. The good old days when people debated holograms vs missiles re: WTC

were not all that good.

[Le Taz Hot]

44. Not to mention, for some reason

there MUST be 639 thread on the SAME damned subject.

[PasadenaTrudy]

50. Same here

I've had to trash certain terms because it's become so ridiculous. I'm embarrassed for certain posters here, so immature and smug. Live and let live....

[ProSense]

51. Blame the RW

What you're seeing are people employing a RW tactic. It's not that most of the people employing this tactic support RW frames. Some have just discovered that the tactic is why RW frames are so pervasive

To get others to accept the most bizarre crap (actual woo), some are suddenly lumping everything into the "woo" category (mint tea = woo). You either accept science or mint tea. LOL!

Superstitions have existed for a long time. Some people will admit to being superstitious about something, and tell you that they don't know why they believe it. They just do.

In recent years, and especially since the rise of teabaggery, a lot of things are being conflated to justify teabagger bullshit, and too many progressives have been duped by teabaggers.

Everything (choice, climate change, LGBT and women's rights, medicine, social progress and even being anti-war) is being questioned using the RW tactic of attacking the credibility of facts (and progressive priorities) in favor of bullshit frames. You're supposed to be deadly afraid of "corporatist" and "fascist," so much so that you reject progress, which is never good enough. The man is after you. You're oppressed. There is no hope. Since Obama became President, all our leaders are "corporatist fascists," "trojan horses" who want to harm you. Somewhere out there is a "real progressive," but the the "corporatist fascists" will never allow that person to be elected. Nothing will change because you have no choice. The message is anti-government.

Woo: because everything you've been told is bullshit. This is what they're selling.

Has anyone noticed that there isn't a push for anything anymore? Everything is written about or framed in the negative, unachievable, except when cited as an ideal. There are no steps, no solutions. It's all or nothing, and it will be nothing because our leaders are "corporatist fascists," "trojan horses" who want to harm you.

Interestingly, the recent reports about Iraq exposes some of this. You can see the people who desperately want to blame Obama for the situation because he withdrew the troops. Strange, huh?

It seems to be an attempt to disrupt progress. All it takes is a few people pushing certain ideas, and the autopilot acceptance of these false frames.

The creep of anti-progressive views under the guise of "nuanced" thinking has become more noticeable.

That was the point of this poll:

Which one of these views should liberals/progressives be more tolerant of:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023925392

Nuance is good. Nuance used to attack facts in favor of long-standing superstitions and other paranormal or unscientific beliefs is bullshit. Nuance leaves room for enlightenment and scientific discovery. Nuance is not a tool to attack facts with things that cannot be proven. One's belief system is just that, a belief system. It's not to be confused with science or presented as a replacement for facts.

The climate change debate is a perfect example of dismissing facts for BS. Every time there is harsh winter weather, the deniers start screaming that climate change is bogus. They are nowhere to be found during harsh summer weather (drought, sand storms, tornadoes).

There was thread here a while back questioning the science behind climate change.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876292

The poster, who survived here for two years, embraced every BS RW argument.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=265347&sub=trans

Over the last two years, there have been a parade of other posters (no longer with us), pushing teabagger bullshit. They've roped in a lot of people. I can't tell if it's because people want to believe the crap or if there is some other dynamic involved.

Whenever I stumble on a really long justification (opinion) advocating something, I read through it carefully. You have to take the time to identify the contradictions and distortions. When I discover it's complete bullshit, I move on. Still, these false frames attract a lot of people.

That's the RW tactic: Dazzle them with bullshit.

[Bobbie Jo]

53. It's the InfoWars-style propaganda,

and off the chain batshitery that makes me hesitant to recommend.

Not to mention the entrenched FUD peddlers.

Any hope for honest debate and discussion is lost as long as these conditions remain.

[CFLDem]

54. The trash button is my best friend. nt

[HangOnKids]

56. Then don't recommend it

See that was easy!

[Blue Owl]

59. All this fuckin' "woo" bullshit is a tad nauseating lately

[Savannahmann]

60. Really?

I hadn't noticed since a couple days ago I trashed any thread with Woo in the title. Awesome feature, and then I was left with a flood of good and interesting threads to read and consider and even comment on from time to time.

I'll admit, that's the first time I've used that feature, and it is wonderful.

[Doctor_J]

64. Spoken like a true defender of the partiarchy

[quinnox]

68. Well, I'm very reluctant to recommend this thread