General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo Where Do We Draw The Line On Extended Unemployment Insurance, And Why?
As one of the 99ers who has exhausted their Fed unemployment extensions, I have a question to ask: what is the proper length of time for extending benefits, and why?
I ask, because it seems to me that any kind of cut-off for ending such benefits is arbitrary. If you make the argument that an unemployed person needed those benefits at week 26 or week 55 or week 99 to provide them with a lifeline (and - as the argument goes -to give them the resources to look for work), then how do you make the argument that they no longer need the benefit at week 100 or 120 or 150?
If the argument is, "well, they can't go on forever," or, "99 weeks is plenty of time to find a job, so it must be the person's fault that they can't find work," or, "well, that's just the way it is," then what's wrong with making the same arguments to limit the length of benefits to, say, 26 weeks?
What about workers who have paid into unemployment for decades without using it, compared to people who have gone on and off unemployment many times over the decades? Aren't those people who didn't use it entitled to a little consideration when it comes to the 99 week cut-off (BTW - I'm not one of those people)?
The fact is that the longer one is out of work, the less likely it is they will be hired because employers look down on such people. That has nothing to do with the person themselves and everything to do with a perception on the part of the employer. Yet, those people are cut-off from that lifeline at a date certain, even though the job market and economic conditions haven't gotten better, for them or many others.
On the one hand, being for any kind of cut-off date sorta puts you in the "cutting off benefits will get them off their lazy asses to find a job, and pronto" claque. Thinking that "we simply can't afford it" is a purely political position.
Are we as a nation moving in a direction where we accept that a not-insignificant number of our fellow citizens being tossed to the wolves is just fine, while an elite subset of people see their assets grow beyond the hopes of rampant avarice?
Any thoughts?
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Puts up a massive jobs bill with a focus on infrastructure.
I am beyond angry that unemployment benes have been cut for the long term unemployed. Folks were sinking before -now they are sunk.
What has happened is disgusting.
However, I know those asshole Republicans in the House will NEVER do anything to improve America - so it won't happen. This was vicious on their part. Just vicious.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Far better to just give people money.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)... as opposed to getting at least some value back?
There are many projects and programs that could use manual labor.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)How about our bridges being fixed?
I know too many tradespeople that don't have work in Central NJ.
Put people who swing hammers back to work and the supporting positions for those people - and we can turn this around.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)... and put folks who don't swing hammers out there too.
I'm talking about legitimate projects that are funded and necessary and not just busy work.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)My husband is a small business owner who has consistently grown in this economy.
Last master welder with an artistic background/training came from Michigan after being unemployed for three years. He had more than 400 resumes.
His HVAC business - every.single.job opening they are bombarded.
Me? I work at HQ at a major telecom.
For both of us -
Put one skilled laborer to work on Public Works Project - Preferably Green Based. They spend money. The places they spend money spend money (b2b). This creates a tax paying employee, who spends more money. And so on and so forth.
Very very simplified - but if a backhoe driver makes enough money to pay a tax preparer, then the tax preparer has enough money to pay for that green energy item for her home, the green energy employee has enough money to pay for a new patent with an attorney, that attorney now has more money for a new paralegal, the paralegal decides to buy a new car . . . he buys the new car from the sales woman at the Fiat dealership, etc. etc.
Other two things - tax me. No seriously. What is this problem people have taxing us> I wrote it this weekend and yet again - tax our two person family at a serious rate - not a joke rate. Oh - and keep taxing me on everything I earn for SS. Then give our seniors a raise - So our seniors can spend money they aren't spending now.
It's simple - to make money you have to spend money. So tax me at a rate that we can spend money, so people can earn money, so they can spend money, and so on and so forth.
Maybe it's my telecom marketing (product management, product launch, etc. etc.) and more than 15 years in a smoke in mirrors business - but it seems so simple. One more thing . . . my husband is a juried artist - who figured out how to make a living 'metal art' that is what he is and is doing more and more every day - hence hiring master welders to create his designs for homes/business/buildings or do the physical restoration work so he can focus on sculpting.
Eventually all the money will trickle up to the VERY rich who buy his artowrk and the whole system just keeps things circulating and going.
Not giving you a hard time - but I see the difference $40 an hour can make to a man with 15 years experience who just needed a shot. I've seen what starting at $18 an hour as a level one welder can do for a young black woman who grew up in Camden but some guy from Italy moved here, started a business, gave her a shot at learning a skill and just 5 years later . . . she is hanging (earlier today) from a church in Belgium at twice the hourly rate restoring the 4 year old iron work around stained glass.
It works.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)I'm talking about a crumbling infrastructure.
I'm talking about if I live another 40 years (I'm 40 now) I'm going to be living a cesspool of falling bridges and outdated grids.
I don't know your age/generation - but I know this -
We fucking suck if we don't do this.
We just suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
The time is now.
There are THREE things we can do to put us on a path of prosperity - and one of them is a works project that makes FDR look like he was playing patty cake.
BobUp
(347 posts)who want UE benefits expire have forgotten that you and others have paid into the system in the form of federal and state taxes. Me thinks they need some bricks to fall on their heads so they can wake up from the stupor they're in.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)paid to former employees. But considering the fact some employers pay into the system for years without any claims I understand the thoughts of employees having years of contributions.
My concern is the number of people who have gotten caught in downsizing through no fault of themselves. If a person has worked in certain fields for a number of years many times their skills are not useable in other employments. If there was valid retraining programs on going it would still take some time to retrain the unemployed to work in other fields and it perhaps would take longer than the 99 weeks. Our Congress has seen fit for the last few years to evade any projects which may help the jobs markets, like a plan of keeping the unemployed in their current status and then blaming them because jobs are not available. We also have aging factors if a person has worked in a field for many years and still not old enough to get their Social Security started and too many jobs does not have pension systems or savings plans available. Many do not pay enough for their employees to "save" for their retirement. If there has been a savings then after losing their jobs the savings is used to maintain shelter and food.
stopbush
(24,395 posts)There is no shortage of skilled labor in this country. There is a shortage of employers willing to pay decent wages for skilled labor. There are plenty of people out of work who HAVE training and have advanced degrees. How does it help one to spend their dwindling resources getting new training or a new degree when they're simply shifting their unemployable status into a different strata of already unemployed people?
Yes, the employer pays into unemployment funds, but most economists point out that they pay their employees less than they would if they weren't paying into unemployment. The fact is that the employee is the one paying into the fund as their wages are less than they would be. The employee is funding the employer's contributions.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)first $7000. Actually the employers would complain but it is not a big portion of employee cost. I retired from a job but because the job was specialized there are not openings to go to other companies. I understand your frustration but for those in my field it would require retraining into something else.
I understand about the wages being low, trust me, I am currently working on a job with minimum wages and know one can not support themselves on this salary and could not even think about providing for a family. I also understand the older worker is not able to do the work we did as a young person so we are limited. The one think older workers has in many cases is we go to work and get there on time.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)follow the 'economists' point of view that they are paying their employees less than they would if they weren't paying into unemployment. I don't get this logic coming from so called "economists".
Economics at its heart is the study of supply and demand. Employers pay what the marketplace will bear. The larger the supply of workers meeting the demand, the less the employer has to pay. The less supply of workers meeting the demand, the more the employer will have to pay. That works for both the skilled worker pool and the unskilled worker pool i.e. the larger number of skilled workers in the skilled worker pool, the less the employer has to pay, and the same for the unskilled worker pool.
stopbush
(24,395 posts)The employer pays into the fund based on the number of employees he has and what they earn. He pays a percentage on at least a base of the first $X amount of income. The percentage and the base varies from state to state (see here: http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/unemploy/docs/aetr-2013est.pdf). Here in CA, the base salary is $7000, which means he pays at least that for every employee. However, he also has to pay on total wages for employees who make over that at .63% of total wages.
When times are good and he's flush with employees, he's actually paying more into the fund than when times are bad and he has fewer employees. That's the "insurance" aspect of unemployment insurance.
What employer would pay into UI if there was no government mandate to do so? None.
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)The employer pays a percentage for Federal Unemployment Tax Act referred to a FUTA and a percentage for State Unemployment Tax Act referred to as SUTA and the employer also receives a credit for the SUTA paid against the FUTA he owes to the Fed. That wasn't my issue. I just didn't understand the logic behind the economist point that was made in your original post, and unfortunately you didn't provide any clarification, but never mind.
MiniMe
(21,714 posts)At least that is how it is where I live.
stopbush
(24,395 posts)madville
(7,408 posts)The more claims filed against them, the higher their premiums rises.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)LisaLynne
(14,554 posts)And like the people who don't like people getting money for "nothing" can then go out and create jobs for those people. How about that, "job creators"?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)An employer needs a worker? If everyone had a basic income, that employer had better be prepared to make a pretty good offer!
what would basic income be at?
12K a year?
30K?
If you have kids does it go up? Marital status?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)That's for the consensus to decide. But in a world of plenty where there aren't enough jobs to go around, basic income is now a human right.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)You don't put a time limit on it. People on UE have to apply for jobs and show that they have. If companies, which have record profits and wealth, don't want to spend money to hire people than we simply increase the amount they pay into the insurance. People out of work aren't going to secure loans to start businesses/etc in most cases so they don't have the means to simply change their situation themselves (if no one is hiring and you don't have the money to start a business you are in a bad way).
If a company outsources jobs overseas (or merges with another company and outsources before the legal paperwork is completed in an attempt to avoid this) their chunk of the insurance payments go up (like a person's does when they have a car accident or are high risk).
Check the 'credit' of a company - if they have hired more than they have laid off over the years their payments go down. If they have had more claims (or close to zero net gain on claims) it goes up.
stopbush
(24,395 posts)than do companies that don't fire a lot of people.
I had to prove that I was looking for work while on Fed benefits. You fill out a form on the back of the claim form you file every two weeks. I think you had to show that you contacted at least 3 places a week. I never had a problem meeting that criteria. I think the form had maybe 10-12 lines on it to list jobs you went after. I had no problem filling out every one of those lines just about every week. Some weeks, I couldn't fit all the places I had contacted.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
Drew Richards
(1,558 posts)When we can get rid of this mentality in congress perhaps we can get a real jobs bill passed.
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)kentuck
(111,076 posts)that it should be tied to the unemployment rate.
But I don't think these folks should be cut off their benefits cold-turkey. After 52 weeks, as an arbitrary number, their weekly benefits should be decreased by 5% per week until they reach 50% of their present benefits.
One of the downsides to putting people to work is that jobs pay so little, many can do just as well on unemployment benefits as they do on a job. Raising the minimum wage should help somewhat.
udbcrzy2
(891 posts)A friend became unemployed for an extended period and was an older female. She took advantage of education benefits. They paid for her to go to school to become a occupational therapy assistant. It was a two year program and they paid her benefits while she attended classes and also paid the technical school for the classes. Now, she has a job that she likes and is making good money.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)MissMillie
(38,546 posts)mandates that if you get benefits, you have to keep working. If you cut off the benefits, there is no longer a mandate for the unemployed to continue a search.
Also, you take a ton of money out of the economy--probably not a good idea right about now.
demosincebirth
(12,536 posts)twenty six weeks, and that was it. Of course , this was 1960
haele
(12,646 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 04:30 PM - Edit history (1)
A good percentage of the 99 week unemployed are between ages 50 and 60.
These people are unemployed because not only are their jobs being phased out (as Dad commented, there are only so many "real" management and lead positions required in this type of economy...), but pretty much no one is going to consider hiring them at any comparable or even somewhat meaningful wage because of their age and what their training and experience should entitle them to. And the longer one is "unemployed" or under-employed, the harder it is to qualify for jobs other than entry level - which younger, healthier, and cheaper workers who are closer to the requirements and qualifications for those positions are competing with the older, over-qualified and long-term unemployed workers for.
People can talk "brain trust" and "experience" all they want, but if the best opportunity to be able to pay one's bills and possibly put a little aside and not go bankrupt is to work for an established company or organization - which is the reality for the majority of workers - those companies and organizations are not looking to pay very much any more. Unions are broken. Ownership won, and Corporations are People, too...
To the corporation, if you're an older, wiser worker, you can always volunteer your expertise for some little compensation, because if you don't, they can always find someone who will work cheaper. Or you can be an independent contractor, competing with all the other contractors who used to be employed at your office that was downsized - or "right-sized" or whatever they call it from twenty-five full time workers to four trouble-call/dispatch desk workers for any crumb of project you can get.
Bottom line is that the "bottom line" is killing opportunity for real follow-on employment for most of the long-term unemployed. Until we as a country come to grips with the realization that we have become the United Corporations of America and set up taxation and social safety nets accordingly, we will be stuck with people who are not going to have any sort of opportunity to provide for themselves once they reach a certain age or skill-set and lose their jobs to cheaper workers or technology.
The cynic in me views a coming dystopia because now-a-days, that's just too darn easy a mindset for this country to allow itself to fall into.
She says "once all the boomers finally leave the job market and the excess adult low-skill workers die off in the prison population - once everyone realizes Money buys security and finally allows themselves and their future descendants to accept permanent social castes. It's so easy to forget the notion of freedom, happiness, or economic and educational mobility, - and when we go slip into that long twilight of Economic Apartheid, of caste and prisons, we shouldn't have a too much of a long-term unemployment issue in this country".
Because that's what the world Ayn Rand and her disciples, all those "Free Marketeers" envisioned would end up being. Tsarist Russia; Rule by Money with 75% more Corporations.
On edit -
Hyperbole aside and in all seriousness, there needs to be a way to realistically identify who is not going to be able to recover when they are unemployed and who is. If you tell a 54 year old computer tech/sys coder - typical for the average mid-skilled older worker who is losing their job - that they are going to be laid off and need to retrain and go into another field, they are walking away from a career where they might have been making $50K - $70K plus benefits, and the expenses that come with having a good 30 year career they thought they would be retiring from at the age of 65 or 70. For the most part, they are not going to be hired back in their career, excepting the few who already got a job lined up through their network. Un-employment or retraining only delays the inevitable for them - they are sliding out of the employable range for their level of skill, experience, and training, and their future is in minimal wage or starting wage work similar to the work they did when they were in their late 20's/early 30's. And those are the workers they will be competing for jobs with until they're physically unable to keep up. They're always going to be a quarter century older than what employers will expect in a worker for those positions, and they are going to have a quarter century's more expenses that go with them, both their own personal and what they potentially cost the employer who hires them. While their maturity in thought and experience may offset some of those costs, it's still a significant disadvantage when it comes to getting meaningful employment when one is coasting into 60.
Laying off the older worker is significantly different then laying off a 34 year old who has only been working for ten years; the 34 year old, when out on the job market or after retraining, is not significantly a different hire than most people are entering either the original or a new career field. Employers will see little downside with hiring someone with ten years working in a career as opposed to someone who's only work experience was odd jobs while going to college or tech school.
And they can more easily promote and justify lower wages to the younger worker who was laid off; s/he will still be looking at working 30 years to regain personal wealth for retirement purposes and can be more willing to accept an entry level pay in exchange for the possibility of regaining what they were originally making prior to the lay-off within five to ten years. The worker can tell themselves they only had a five-year hiccup, and now they are getting a more permanent chance to plan for their future - it might not be what they had originally chose, but they can still work for a couple more decades and make up for the lost time.
The younger person can - for the most part - make due with a 26 week to find/extend to complete re-training type of unemployment insurance that many states currently offer.
Student Loan Debt/Disability/location job availability are complications for them, but for the most part, they can regain some form of meaningful employment within the alloted time frame between unemployment and re-training program completion.
The older worker - that's far more complicated.
Very few companies want to pay what the older worker could reasonably, by rights of reliability, maturity, training and experience, ask for. After all - the willingness to pay reasonable compensation for that older worker for the work they do was the very reason most companies laid the poor sap off, leaving him or her with few opportunities for future employment, in the first place.
Haele
ProgressSaves
(123 posts)preferably by economists from the School of Krugman!