Meditation 'works just as well as anti-depressants'

[JaneyVee]

Study found meditation works as well as conventional anti-depressants

It follows research in the U.S. involving 3,500 people

Meditation for just half an hour can relieve depression as much as popping a pill, claim researchers.
They found regular meditation could also relieve anxiety, pain and stress.

In a U.S. study of previously published research involving 3,500 people, meditation alleviated symptoms of depression on a par with conventional anti-depressants.

Meditation, which has a long history in Eastern traditions, is one of many 'mindfulness' techniques that have grown in popularity in the West over the last 30 years.

It is typically practised for 30 to 40 minutes a day with the aim of encouraging acceptance of feelings and thoughts without judgment, and relaxing body and mind.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2534957/Meditation-works-just-anti-depressants-Half-hour-day-offers-relief-tablets.html

I meditate 30-40 minutes a day combined with yoga, best anti-depressant ever. Woo woo!

[elleng]

1. Good to hear,

brother and his family have practiced it for years. I couldn't get into it. Pills helped me.

[kcr]

2. Only a minority had been diagnosed with a mental illness

He said 'In our study, meditation appeared to provide as much relief from some anxiety and depression symptoms as what other studies have found from antidepressants.
'These patients did not typically have full-blown anxiety or depression.'

[Bradical79]

5. Unfortunately, I found that to be the case

The pill helps me in a way that meditation didn't with the severe depression, but the meditation helped some with anxiety before I started taking the pill. No 100% cure though.

The meditation does help me with mentally separating the depression and it's physical effects from how I should be feeling as a rational human being if that makes any sense.

[pnwmom]

23. So? M.D.s prescribe SSRI's to patients with milder levels of depression

even though the research shows the drugs only help people who are more seriously depressed.

So these people are exactly the ones who should be considering other alternatives.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13375-prozac-does-not-work-in-majority-of-depressed-patients.html#.Usu2QhbvxTQ

The antidepressant Prozac and related drugs are no better than placebo in treating all but the most severely depressed patients, according to a damaging assessment of the latest generation of antidepressants.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, were supposed to revolutionise care of depression - by treating symptoms without the side effects of older drugs, such as tricyclics.

But despite selling in vast quantities, a new meta-analysis of these drugs, from data presented to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), appears to suggest that for most patients they do not work. A previous study had indicated that the benefits of antidepressants might be exaggerated.

SNIP

They did detect some benefits in the most severely depressed patients. But conclude that in this group the small effect is "due to decreased responsiveness to placebo, rather than increased responsiveness to medication".

[kcr]

63. What do you mean, so?

"even though the research shows the drugs only help people who are more seriously depressed."
Harldly merits a "so?" response, don't you think? I mean, how on earth we get from that to "Mediation works JUST AS WELL AS meds". I mean, don't you think that's just a wee misleading? I do.

[pnwmom]

69. The title is misleading.

My reaction was to the fact that the study involved mostly those who hadn't suffered full-blown depression.

That is a valid group to study since they're unlikely to be helped by the meds.

[kcr]

70. Okay. But my reaction is to the misleading title

The article is trying to spin it into meds are just as good as meditation. And reading the actual article and study clearly shows that's not the case.

[pnwmom]

72. For the vast majority of people taking the meds, it IS as helpful.

So I guess it depends on your prospective.

[kcr]

76. Perspective doesn't change misleading headlines

And I'm not saying meditation isn't helpful. I'm saying this study didn't say that it was the same as meds.

[Stevepol]

61. A 1995 Mother Jones article may throw some light on all this.

It has a good discussion of some of the issues that are always discussed with regard to the use of anti-depressants. Then, in another section there's a discussion of the efforts of a psychologist to get hold of the results of the clinical studies that were used to justify the drugs in the first place. Here's the link. The article is fascinating.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/11/it-prozac-or-placebo

Here are a few sections from the article:

But critics, psychologists and psychiatrists alike, have been suspicious of the drugs since they were introduced, and it turns out they have some striking data on their side. "In the early '90s, many of our psychiatric colleagues felt that patients did not do as wonderfully as all these reports of 'magic pills' would suggest," recalled psychologist Roger Greenberg, a professor at the State University of New York's Upstate Medical University. "So we went back to the literature." Greenberg [no relation to the author] and his team analyzed all the data from Prozac's clinical trials that had been published. They determined that the new drug showed negligible advantage over earlier antidepressants and that two-thirds of the patients would do as well or better with placebos.

snip

Kirsch requested the complete files on the six most widely prescribed antidepressants approved between 1987 and 1999: Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, Serzone, and Celexa -- drugs that together had $8.3 billion in worldwide sales in 2002. Within a month, he had an even less drug-friendly story than the one told in the journals. In "The Emperor's New Drugs," published in the July 2002 issue of the American Psychological Association's Prevention & Treatment, Kirsch's team presented their findings: Of the 47 trials conducted for the six drugs, only 20 of them showed any measurable advantage of drugs over placebos, a much lower number than turns up in published research. This was not entirely unexpected -- "publication bias" has long been known to be a problem in assessing the effectiveness of drugs -- and Kirsch is quick to point out that even these meager numbers "leave no doubt that there is a difference between drug and placebo. But I was surprised at how small the difference was in clinical terms. The studies all used the same measure" -- the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale, the nearly universal way clinicians assess a patient's level of depression -- "so it was easy to see how much clinical improvement there really was." And there really wasn't much at all: The average patient on drugs improved by about 10 points on the 52-point Hamilton, while a placebo patient improved by a little more than eight. "A two-point difference on the Hamilton -- it's just clinically meaningless. Trivial," Kirsch says. "You can get that from having an improvement in sleep patterns, and if one of the side effects of the drugs is to induce drowsiness, the whole difference could be right there." (Indeed, critics say the Hamilton is skewed toward physical symptoms of depression, those most likely to be affected by medication.)

Here's an interesting sidelight. One of the people the article's author interviewed had taken part in one of the original studies. She told Greenberg (the author) that she had improved a whole lot during the trial. But she was surprised to find out that she had been in the placebo group. It's usual procedure in these trials to offer the participants free use of the drug after the trial is over. The author asked the trial participant if she planned to take advantage of that offer. She told him she definitely would. Her idea: If I was helped that much by the placebo, think how much I might be improved by the drug itself.

[kcr]

66. Not really.

It's an article from 1995 stating that a study suggests that it's all placebo affect, according to the article, and starts right off the bat with an anecdote. And doesn't change the fact that the headline is not accurate.

[Stevepol]

103. Not one study: he looked at all 47 studies used for all the clinical tests on the 6 drugs

to prove the effectiveness of the drugs.

Of course it was just the 6 drugs. Probably there was another one in the pipeline at the time that was the miracle drug, the one we have now we didn't have then.

[HERVEPA]

3. Nice cherry picking

He said 'In our study, meditation appeared to provide as much relief from SOME anxiety and depression symptoms as what other studies have found from antidepressants.

'These patients did not typically have full-blown anxiety or depression.'

Overall, depression affects one in 10 adults in the UK at any one time.

Some depression is due to a chemical imbalance, and drugs can often correct that, like it or not.

[JaneyVee]

4. I agree with the sentiment, but the drugs also cause some people to kill themselves.

Meditation has a pretty good track record of not killing people. But by all means, any one suffering from severe depression should most definitely seek medical help first.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. How many people who chose to meditate instead of going to a doctor killed themselves?

Is there reporting on this? No, there is not, so you can't say that meditation has a good track record or not.

[pnwmom]

25. It's very relevant cherry-picking because research only supports

the effectiveness of SSRI's and other depression meds for the most serious forms of depression, not the milder cases.

IOW, doctors are giving SSRI's to patients without full-blown depression even though the research fails to show a benefit for this group.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13375-prozac-does-not-work-in-majority-of-depressed-patients.html#.Usu2QhbvxTQ

The antidepressant Prozac and related drugs are no better than placebo in treating all but the most severely depressed patients, according to a damaging assessment of the latest generation of antidepressants.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, were supposed to revolutionise care of depression - by treating symptoms without the side effects of older drugs, such as tricyclics.

But despite selling in vast quantities, a new meta-analysis of these drugs, from data presented to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), appears to suggest that for most patients they do not work. A previous study had indicated that the benefits of antidepressants might be exaggerated.

SNIP

They did detect some benefits in the most severely depressed patients. But conclude that in this group the small effect is "due to decreased responsiveness to placebo, rather than increased responsiveness to medication".

[Bluenorthwest]

39. That 'chemical imbalance' language is a term of art.

This is from the Harvard Medical School:
It’s often said that depression results from a chemical imbalance, but that figure of speech doesn’t capture how complex the disease is. Research suggests that depression doesn’t spring from simply having too much or too little of certain brain chemicals. Rather, depression has many possible causes, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, stressful life events, medications, and medical problems. It’s believed that several of these forces interact to bring on depression.

To be sure, chemicals are involved in this process, but it is not a simple matter of one chemical being too low and another too high. Rather, many chemicals are involved, working both inside and outside nerve cells. There are millions, even billions, of chemical reactions that make up the dynamic system that is responsible for your mood, perceptions, and how you experience life.

With this level of complexity, you can see how two people might have similar symptoms of depression, but the problem on the inside, and therefore what treatments will work best, may be entirely different.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/what-causes-depression.htm

[hedgehog]

68. ^^^^^^This!

Go to any board for depressives and you'll find the same story - that it took several different trials of drugs and/or drug combinations to find the right treatment. Pulling numbers out of the air to explain this, only 20% of the people in the trial show any benefit from Newsatz. Only 20% of the people doctors treat benefit from Newsatz. But, 100% of the people with a certain type of depression benefit from Newsatz.

[BainsBane]

6. Meditation can be part of mindfullness therapy

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:45 PM - Edit history (2)

Or Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Both therapy and medication work about the same, only they work on different parts of the brain. This has been demonstrated through brain scans. The best results for major depression, however, come from a combination of anti-depressants and cognitive behavioral therapy.

Medication is all the more crucial to bipolar disorder.

I have to say I find these kinds of posts about mental illness offensive. Would you tell AIDs patients they should rely on meditation and avoid medication? I would suspect anyone who finds their symptoms alleviated through meditation alone hasn't suffered from long-term, debilitating depression. Depression is a lethal disease. Perpetuating the idea that people can will their way out of it through meditation alone is dangerous.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. I was a close up witness to the dawn of the AIDS crisis and many do

tell those patients what to do, the last few days on DU are filled with threads that I see as retrospective whining about what dying people did to help themselves when 'medical science' was caught unprepared, deeply frightened and unable to act in any meaningful way for years.
The folks who attack acupuncture and herbal medications and meditation are saying those people should not have used those treatments, instead of using cannabis they should have vomited until they died, they should not have used 'woo' to manage pain, nor stress nor to address other symptoms as much as possible.
Medical Science, when AIDS struck, had only recently stopped claiming that being gay was itself a disease to be treated, so they had no idea how to even speak to gay people. They had indulged in many years of bigoted fakery posing as 'the Best Science' and when history called them to action, they were unable to act because they had remained ignorant, believed bullshit and many of them were soaked in prejudice.
To me, Bane, all of the 'I hate any Medicine that is not from Big Science' threads are all telling the sick and dying what to do, for almost each subject that is brought up, I think of a name and a face and the relief brought by alternative treatment when the mainstream of medicine had nothing to offer, no ideas, no treatments and very often simply wanted the mystery contagion out of their offices as soon as possible.
The 'anti woo' people at that time were part of an establishment that mostly still held that homosexuality is a disorder. They recommended shock therapy, to 'cure the gay' and that was the state of the science.
The same folks who think they look wise and smart look dewy, inexperienced and naïve. Which is a way of saying they seem ignorant of life as it really functions.

[BainsBane]

134. I used that example

because I recently saw an excellent and moving documentary on PBS about Act Up and other AIDs activists. I could have referenced any other disease seen as biological (as though mental illness isn't, which of course if false). I'm for whatever people can do to find relief for themselves. Only they can decide what treatments are best for them. The stigma against mental illness remains great. Most people still will not talk about the fact they have been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder because of the judgment and shame that accompanies such illnesses. If someone finds medication helpful, that is fantastic. Lots of things are helpful: a good protein centered diet, regular exercise, and other mindfulness techniques in addition to meditation. But I cringe at threads that claim medication is unnecessary for those with serious mental illnesses. I see them as part of the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality that keeps so many from seeking treatment. I remain frustrated than antidepressants don't cure the disease and only work marginally better than placebos in the case of major depression, but they are nonetheless essential to preserving the lives of many people, including members of this site. For those with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, no amount of meditation is going to make the biological changes necessary to keep them from entering mania or psychosis.

I don't mean to suggest that HIV/AIDs patients don't face stigma and a world of bullshit. I know they do.

[Egalitarian Thug]

7. I'd definitely start there before submitting myself to pharmaceuticals.

Meditation, yoga, tai-chi, martial arts, any non-injurious activity would change most Americans' lives, dramatically. Something that every health care professional can agree on regardless of orientation..

I regularly find that I, a middle aged man at least a decade away from really fit, am more fit than most of the children and kids I encounter out in the world. Last week I was taking a quick run in Red Rock Canyon and passed a group of cub scouts (so we're talking about 8 - 10 year old boys) on the way up a hill. I got to the top, had a smoke and ran back down only to see them still huffing and puffing on another break, about 1/3 mile further along the trail.

I'm still stunned.

[LadyHawkAZ]

8. ARGH!

And now we can add: Just meditate for an hour every day! to panel #4.

Meditation is relaxing and helps clear your head when you are in a normal frame of mind. Meditation does jack squat for clinical depression, particularly depression resulting from physical disorders or chemical/hormonal imbalances in the body. It can be downright dangerous to suggest to people with serious depression problems that they just need to buck up, relax and get happy. People, doctors included, blathered that shit at me for 30 long depressed years, when what I really needed was Big Scary Pharma™ thyroid HRT. I'm damn lucky to be alive.

I'm glad all this stuff works for some people somewhere but DU really needs to stop looking like WebMD. Two more days of this and every reply is going to begin with, "Well, I can't rule out cancer..."

[REP]

13. + infinity and beyond

I love that cartoon!

I've seen so many posts today by what I must assume are people ignorant of what clinical depression is (it's not just feeling "sad" and it's not a "natural part of life&quot and advising those with the disease to forgo medicine. I'd like to believe they don't mean any harm, but it just comes across as hateful and mean.

[SidDithers]

14. Great post...nt

Sid

[progressoid]

16. ^^^this^^^

[LAGC]

19. +1000

I'd be dead right now if not for SSRIs.

It's like night and day.

You can't just "meditate away" problems when your biochemistry goes awry.

You got to fight fire with fire.

[LadyHawkAZ]

21. They had me on Zoloft for a couple of years

Obviously it wasn't a fix because we were treating the wrong problem, and when it finally failed it was permanent catastrophic failure, but it did give me a couple of blissful years without the constant depression. More important, it gave me a sense of what "normal" was, what life was supposed to be like, and convinced me once and for all that the problem wasn't just something that could be "talked out" with a therapist. It really wasn't just me being "lazy" or "stubborn" or "refusing to be happy", something really was physically wrong with me.

It didn't do what it was supposed to do, but it did something that was probably more important, and I'm glad I took it.

[LAGC]

24. Yeah,

The bottom line is that there are complex chemical reactions going on inside our bodies, processes we have little natural control over.

While meditation can help in some mild cases of feeling blue or down due to negative life events, when serious chemical deficiencies are going on inside the brain ALL THE TIME, psychiatric intervention is needed.

It's just not normal to be pondering suicide all of the time, having a perpetual bleak outlook on life. It's not an issue of mind over matter in those cases, rather: it's matter over mind.

Generic Prozac did the trick for me.

[pnwmom]

27. This research is specifically NOT about people with full-blown depression.

So they wouldn't suggest people like you just try meditation.

HOWEVER, other research shows that SSRIs and other drugs don't seem to help people with milder forms of depression. So this medication might be a good alternative for them.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13375-prozac-does-not-work-in-majority-of-depressed-patients.html#.Usu2QhbvxTQ

The antidepressant Prozac and related drugs are no better than placebo in treating all but the most severely depressed patients, according to a damaging assessment of the latest generation of antidepressants.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, were supposed to revolutionise care of depression - by treating symptoms without the side effects of older drugs, such as tricyclics.

But despite selling in vast quantities, a new meta-analysis of these drugs, from data presented to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), appears to suggest that for most patients they do not work. A previous study had indicated that the benefits of antidepressants might be exaggerated.

SNIP

They did detect some benefits in the most severely depressed patients. But conclude that in this group the small effect is "due to decreased responsiveness to placebo, rather than increased responsiveness to medication".

[LAGC]

28. Fair enough.

But the OP headline doesn't readily make that distinction. (And of course, its the Daily Mail we're talking about here...)

I agree that mild cases of feeling down due to temporary life events don't necessarily require a full-blown anti-depressant regimen, but there should be more focus on distinguishing between the two conditions rather than making sensationalist headlines suggesting the meditation is a "cure-all" for depression in general.

[pnwmom]

29. You're right -- the title was misleading. It was much deeper in the article

before I read that the patients were mostly without full-blown depression or anxiety.

[Dawgs]

46. +gazillion

Anyone that's ever really had a serious problem with depression would know.

[MineralMan]

49. Thanks for posting that.

While meditation and talk therapy may be useful for some people, it is not a substitute for medication for many, many others. Often, finding the right medication or combination of medications can be a difficult thing, but meditation is not the answer for many, many people who have depression or who are bi-polar.

Articles like the one at the top of this thread are incomplete and do not take all cases into consideration. Most people will not even read the part of the article that says that this was not tested on people with serious depressive disorders.

It does a disservice to people who do have disorders that require medication.

[DirkGently]

85. Argh. That's wrong. I think you mischaracterize the OP.

Studying meditation for treating depression is not the equivalent of telling people to "just buck up." There's more to it than that, and there are medical studies to prove it.

Psychologists from the University of Exeter recently published a study into "mindfulness-based cognitive therapy" (MBCT), finding it to be better than drugs or counseling for depression. Four months after starting, three quarters of the patients felt well enough to stop taking antidepressants.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindfulness-in-frantic-world/201110/curing-depression-mindfulness-meditation

JUNE 12, 2006 — A relaxation technique known as Transcendental Meditation may decrease blood pressure and reduce insulin resistance among patients with coronary heart disease, according to a report in the June 12 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

http://www.tm.org/american-medical-association

That's the problem with this entire "woo" drama. The people hollering that such and such is nonsense don't actually know whether a given thing is nonsense or not. Meditation is actually a great example. It's not a pill or a medical procedure, and it comes from tradition and philosophy rather than a laboratory, but it is nonetheless a real thing.

So the irrational view is actually dismissing things on broad bases such as whether they are conventional or mainstream, without any qualitative investigation of the thing itself. Burying a toad at midnight to cure warts is not the same as meditation or acupuncture. Likewise, plenty of mainstream drugs and procedures turn out to be "dangerous" nonsense, even after supposedly passing conventional scientific scrutiny.

Reality isn't as simple as labeling things based on what is well-known or easily accepted vs. the unconventional or unexpected.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. You first link seems to be about people who are being weaned off of anti-depressives, so they...

aren't reliant on them anymore to stabilize their mood, almost half relapse with meditation, though its slightly better than the 60% who relapse just being taken off of anti-depressants alone. So meditation isn't being used to replace the anti-depressants during depression, but to help ease patients off of them at the end of the depression.

Indeed, its even pointed out in that article how a sad episode can trigger a depressive episode. This doesn't sound like severe or clinical depression, but episodic, situational depression.

[DirkGently]

104. Where does the OP mention clinical depression?

Your observations are interesting, but they don't contradict the OP or my comments.

The study the article is citing found meditation effective for treating depression. Meditation according is not "woo," or an imaginary pseudo-scientific nonsense of some kind.

Do you take issue with that, or are you just pointing out that conventional drugs also work, and that there are different types of depression?

[Humanist_Activist]

106. Question, how are we supposed to know the distinction when the reporting...

on the study is so poorly written out? You seem to be ignoring that, look at the headline, from the OP, it is, at best, inaccurate, and at worst, an outright lie.

ON EDIT: Also, again, you seem to forget this, the meditation mentioned in your link is NOT used as a substitute for anti-depressants, but as a method to wean patients off of them, that is a BIG difference.

[DirkGently]

109. That's a pretty convoluted objection.

The article and OP suggest meditation is effective in treating depression. The many important nuances of medical science in general don't really bear on the "woo" vs. "not woo" argument.

[Humanist_Activist]

111. "The article and OP suggest meditation is effective in treating depression." Yeah, a lie.

The study doesn't say that, and it makes nuances about it that both the OP and you seem to fail to grasp.

[DirkGently]

113. What is it you think the study DOES say about meditation?

Given that it "makes nuances" and so forth. If the article (and all the other articles) got it so wrong, how should they have characterized the results, in your opinion?

[Humanist_Activist]

123. It says that meditation may be effective for some types of depression...

such as mild depressions, and works better than anti-depressants for those types of depression.

[DirkGently]

126. So you'd just make the headline longer.

That's fine, I guess, but it suggests you're arguing just to argue. Nothing in the OP or the articles purports that meditation is the new cure for all levels of depression in all cases. The fact that studies show it as good or better than anti-depressants in SOME cases would be the expected reading of the headline and the articles themselves.

You'll pardon me, but it feels like you're simply hostile to the idea that something you consider outside the circle of acceptable science has been proven effective.

[Humanist_Activist]

129. Longer, and more accurate, but its the Daily Mail, so we have low expectations...

also, I keep seeing people talk about woo and the discounting of this just to discount it, but from people who want to take such things uncritically. Do you enjoy erecting strawmen to knock down? 90% of this thread was criticizing the Daily Mail for being sensationalist tabloid bullshit, with few comments about the actual study, and of those, acknowledging it may be effective, but not for all types of depression, and stressing the importance of that distinction.

You claim I'm arguing just to argue, but really, who, on this thread, is behaving the most defensive?

[DirkGently]

133. But the DM article reflects the same facts as the others, so ...?

Palm Beach Daily News

An analysis of 47 clinical trials published Monday online in the Journal of the American Medical Association reveals that a half an hour of meditation a day can reduce symptoms of those conditions.

- See more at: http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/lifestyles/medical/study-meditation-may-relieve-mild-to-moderate-depr/ncdf2/#sthash.dtQfB5xD.dpuf

Forbes

A new review study, out yesterday in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Internal Medicine, finds that mindfulness meditation may rival antidepressants in easing the symptoms of depression

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

As I noted before, the L.A. Times has it too. The article makes the point that meditation was not shown to be helpful for other things like weight loss.

Do you find that the Daily Mail version was more hyperbolic somehow?

[Humanist_Activist]

135. To be honest, I find all of them to be hyperbolic, but again, the studies themselves...

talk about treatment for mild to moderate depression, most of it situational. Meditation has NOT been shown to work better than anti-depressants for severe and clinical depression.

[DirkGently]

139. So again, you just want a longer headline.

The thing is, it's not misleading or hyperbolic for a headline or a short article not to go into detail as to the types of "depression" the studies addressed.

It's like arguing with someone who says it's raining on the basis they didn't clarify it wasn't a thunderstorm. On what basis would someone assume "depression" meant "the most severe forms of clinical depression?"

That's not hyperbole. It's not even inaccurate.

This is what I mean when I say you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, out of some baseless hostility for meditation.

The articles and the studies say meditation is effective for depression. There's no basis for you to claim that's wrong or an exaggeration of some kind.

If the articles had said "Anti-depressants are effective in treating depression," would you have quibbled that it was "hyperbolic" on the basis that only certain anti-depressants work for certain people for certain types of depression, in some cases?

[Humanist_Activist]

140. Yes I would, to your last question, I prefer accuracy over inaccuracy.

Frankly, with the wide differences between types of depression, not to mention differences necessary for treatments of them, I feel they should perhaps use separate terminology, for accuracy's sake.

ON EDIT: This is kinda like looking for a "cure" for cancer, in general, its really uninformative and inaccurate.

[DirkGently]

141. Well I would hope people suffering severely would

look into all the nitty gritty details before self-diagnosing, including getting medical advice as to what treatment is appropriate.

Another thing occurs to me with the vehement objections in this thread -- from others here; not you -- which is the notion that suggesting meditation is a viable form of treatment is somehow tantamount to telling people suffering sever depression that "it's all in your head."

I don't see it that way. Mind / body connection appears to be a real thing, and in my opinion deserves further study and exploration. It is not akin to telling people to rub a toad's belly or some other wacky placebo.

People have been studying mediation for a long time. Practitioners work for years to become proficient. It remains to be seen exactly how effective it is for doing what, but it's not something someone made up to sell a book, or to soothe people's nerves with magical-sounding gibberish.

[Humanist_Activist]

143. Its because many people are used to being told exactly that, that it is...

somehow a matter of will to be cured of their...brain disorder or disease. I do wonder if calling such things mood disorders or mental disorders is helpful, it is something physical that is happening to the brain, not any different from a broken leg or a damaged heart. Kinda shows, rather obviously, how the mind is materialistic, its a product of the brain, and the health of the brain is directly linked to the health of the mind.

I'm sensitive to this because my mother was bi-polar, my fiancee is bi-polar, and both face issues of even family accepting that they have a "real" disease or disorder. Just when both need the emotional support of family(particularly parents, in both cases), the most, those people abandon them because they don't suffer from a "real disease".

[LadyHawkAZ]

121. Kuyken's study found meditation effective in helping prevent relapse AFTER treatment

not AS treatment in itself. His entire sample had received successful antidepressant therapy within the 6 months prior to the study, i.e. they had already been through the treatment program. Mindfulness meditation is also recommended as part of drug addiction recovery. It's not the sum total of the recovery program. It's a coping tool to help prevent relapse into old habits, much as it was in the study.

Likewise, the OP article described a technique as being successful in treating anxiety and depression in a sample of people, most of whom had, according to the same article, neither condition in the first place.

He said 'In our study, meditation appeared to provide as much relief from some anxiety and depression symptoms as what other studies have found from antidepressants.

'These patients did not typically have full-blown anxiety or depression.'

Nowhere did I say it was useless. It has its uses. It's just not a cure, especially for a condition with causes as fragmented and varied as depression, and it's a dangerous thing to tout as one.

[Humanist_Activist]

95. Don't insert superstition into medical issues. n/t

[bhikkhu]

9. It also takes time and effort

that's where doctors get frustrated and just hand out the pills.

[dionysus]

10. so does klonopin and exercise.

[LeftyMom]

11. Word to the wise: don't get your science news from the Daily Mail.

They didn't even bother to link to the actual study, which is not surprising but also a really bad sign for their having correctly reported anything.

[progressoid]

15. They spend more time researching Kim Kardashian than actual news.

[LeftyMom]

17. Somewhere in the UK somebody poor or brown or both did something crazy, and the Daily Heil is ON IT.

Science reporting? Not so much.

[DirkGently]

88. Plenty of other sources have the same story.

Palm Beach Daily News

An analysis of 47 clinical trials published Monday online in the Journal of the American Medical Association reveals that a half an hour of meditation a day can reduce symptoms of those conditions.

- See more at: http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/lifestyles/medical/study-meditation-may-relieve-mild-to-moderate-depr/ncdf2/#sthash.dtQfB5xD.dpuf

Forbes

A new review study, out yesterday in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Internal Medicine, finds that mindfulness meditation may rival antidepressants in easing the symptoms of depression

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

L.A. Times has it too. The article makes the point that meditation was not shown to be helpful for other things like weight loss.

I think this is the problem with this entire weird "anti-woo" fad. Trying to reject things as irrational without examining the thing itself.

[freshwest]

12. Biofeedback can work well for stress and pain, too. n/t

[pnwmom]

31. That's working well for my son. Meditation probably would, too,

but it's easier for him to focus with the biofeedback.

[freshwest]

57. A few years ago my neuropsychologist had me working on a new one. Also some of the

Mindfulness techniques. The most efficient was combined with using a computer to track blood pressure, pulse, etc. with sine waves on a computer from the contacts placed on my skin. Seeing them I was able to adjust my output.

It was a way of severing my habitual emotional response from the pain from injury. Prior to that I used what I guess was a sort of visualization to shift blood flow, measured by skin temperature from my head to my extremities ot relieve the migraines.

I suppose these might be called meditation, but none of it was never referred to as that, simply by the physical effects in medical terms. no candles or soft music or whatever people are imagined to do. I don't go for that, it aggravates me.

I was also taught to relax muscles with some acupressure at the end of muscles where they were accessible to ease the pain where they weren't - like the muscle between thumb and index finger to uncramp what is on the head and neck. It hurts for a bit but it makes it let go.

A lot like pinching the top of the calf muscle where it attaches behind the knee, when one gets a leg cramp to make the spasm quit. My husband of years ago was taught that in football and showed me how to relieve them that way.

[pnwmom]

59. My husband get an occasional leg cramp.

I hope I remember to get him to try out your technique next time.

[freshwest]

60. Have him aim for pinching hard the place the calf muscle attaches. It hurts for a second and I'm

guessing it overloads the nerve that fired to make the cramp and it thinks its work is done and lets go.
I use the hand thing during the day to ease the cranial nerves. At times something is building but I cannot sense it until I press there. It's better than getting so much compression on those nerves that I want to puke.

I can't do anything by myself for the mylagia on those tiny mucles that fire off around the skull. But it travels those paths and helps.

Hope this works for your spouse.

[pnwmom]

74. Thanks a lot. I think I'll mention this to him now

and hope one of us remembers when this happens again.

[pnwmom]

81. I have a favorite accupressure point, too.

You might try it sometime, if you don't already know it.

When I start sneezing, it's not just one sneeze, it's a string of sneezes. So it's really a disaster. It turns out there's a pressure point for sneezing on the inside of the elbow. So if I feel my nose about to sneeze, I quickly press on that point till the urge passes. I can usually stop an allergic sneeze that way. (I usually let myself sneeze if I have a cold.)

I also heard that it helps, if you're about to sneeze, to tickle your palate with your tongue. That can help, too. But I think the elbow thing works better for me.

[Warpy]

84. Again, it takes time and concentration like meditation does

and that's something a lot of people just don't have. You can't meditate effectively in a house full of children all wanting something, for instance, not if you're mom.

I do meditate and find it helpful. When I get up in the morning and my joints are screaming, I take my Ultram. It's faster and I can get going with it.

[awoke_in_2003]

18. Meditation works for some, but not for all...

kind of like prescriptions.

[davidthegnome]

20. Meditation is great.

I have attempted it on numerous occasions myself, and enjoyed it - though I don't think I ever quite found that "center" that people speak of.

However... it does NOT work "just as well" as anti-depressants. That is a misleading headline and a false assertion that is incredibly insulting to people who DO take medication, to people that, quite literally, cannot function without it. People like me. PTSD can be like a nightmare you can't wake up from, I can't find the words to describe how bad it sucks, how hellish it can turn your life, how it can warp your mind and heart. I have practiced various forms of meditation, but none had anywhere near the same success say, as Xanax (I don't take it anymore, but it sure helped when I did) in managing anxiety attacks. None came close to sort of balancing me out as Zoloft does. I've tried with the medication, and I've gotten off the medication and followed the advice of well meaning people who encouraged me to try alternative approaches, diet, life-style changes, exercise, yoga, meditation... etc. I can say for a fact, that I found nothing that works better than anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications.

It's not that I like these medications. I don't. They ARE over-prescribed, often without even attempting something different or more natural. Maybe if my first psychiatrist (I was 13) hadn't been so quick to prescribe Zoloft, I wouldn't still need it today, sixteen years later. Maybe I wouldn't be on this high dose that leaves me feeling like a zombie. But, for all of it's flaws, it keeps me functional, I really don't want to go back to lying in my bed shaking all day. Anti-depressants are not a miracle cure - and generally treat the symptoms more than the illness - but until we can discover an actual cure for various forms of mental illness, they are usually the best remedy for severe conditions.

That having been said... this is a fascinating study, but I'd like to see something more in depth in regards to actually treating patients with severe depression and/or anxiety through the use of meditation, yoga, natural remedies and so on.

Believe me, if it were as simple as yoga and meditation... I would have cured myself years ago. There is very little that I haven't tried, at one point or another, for months at a time. Meditation is great, but who ever came up with that headline... should have considered the implications of their foolish assertion.

[pnwmom]

34. Actually, the research says that SSRI's don't work better than placebo

for most cases of depression -- all except the most severe. So, for those milder cases, meditation might actually work better.

But you are one of those who have been helped, so that's good.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13375-prozac-does-not-work-in-majority-of-depressed-patients.html#.Usu2QhbvxTQ

The antidepressant Prozac and related drugs are no better than placebo in treating all but the most severely depressed patients, according to a damaging assessment of the latest generation of antidepressants.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, were supposed to revolutionise care of depression - by treating symptoms without the side effects of older drugs, such as tricyclics.

But despite selling in vast quantities, a new meta-analysis of these drugs, from data presented to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), appears to suggest that for most patients they do not work. A previous study had indicated that the benefits of antidepressants might be exaggerated.

SNIP

They did detect some benefits in the most severely depressed patients. But conclude that in this group the small effect is "due to decreased responsiveness to placebo, rather than increased responsiveness to medication".

[davidthegnome]

54. I don't recall having said otherwise.

I AM one of those severe cases - or at least I was. The problem with the headline here is that it suggests that meditation is an alternative to medication - in general. This is wishful thinking at best. Take a patient who has severe panic disorder and give them Xanax, Ativan, valium, or any other number of anti-anxiety drugs. They work - I would go so far as to say that they work far better than breathing exercises, as I have attempted both to exhaustion. So do drugs like Zoloft and Prozac. Granted, there is the placebo effect which accounts for significant improvement in various patients.

When it comes to depression, or anxiety, we aren't just dealing primarily with those two conditions alone. Often they are the result of a severe form of mental illness, such as PTSD, bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, acute anxiety, severe panic disorder, etc. A great many patients who are diagnosed with simply depression or anxiety, actually suffer from these conditions.

It's largely a matter of available treatment, as well. If you live in an isolated area like I do, and don't have health insurance... and there is but one psychiatrist within 100 miles, your options are rather limited. Also, that one psychiatrist charges 350 dollars per 45 minute session, so in my particular case, it's... well, let's just say unaffordable.

CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) and different forms of therapy can also help a great deal. I am sure that meditation is a useful tool as well as a coping/relaxation method, but it is not an alternative to an accurate diagnosis and a solid plan for treatment, which often does include medication.

The insulting, sneering condescension common in people who have no personal experience with mental illness tends to put people like me on the defensive. No, believe it or not, I can't pray it away, I can't breathe it away, nor can I even exercise it away. It is a condition as real and as painful as any other. I'm not taking pills for cheap thrills or to get high, as the ignorant often suggest. I am taking medication because if I don't, I simply cannot function.

These studies are helpful, but should not lead to such blanket assertions - that, is irresponsible journalism.

[pnwmom]

58. I agree that the title is way off base.

You have to read deeply into the article to find him acknowledge that most of his subjects didn't have full-blown depression.

I'm glad you've found help for yours.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. The OP is not about PTSD.

I think that matters.

[davidthegnome]

56. Depression is a symptom of PTSD.

The headline asserts, quite generally, that, "Meditation works just as well as anti-depressants". This is inaccurate. I don't know what else to say other than that this is not responsible journalism. Not that there is a great deal of responsible journalism going around these days... however, when you are talking about something as serious as mental illness - and reporting on scientific studies, you have an obligation to be both accurate and neutral. Rely upon the facts, rather than opinion or evidence that is, quite simply, not enough from which to draw such conclusions.

"Meditation is very helpful for depression", "Meditation can make you happier", "Meditation is a wonderful tool for those struggling with mental illness" - any of those headlines would have been fine.

[JDPriestly]

22. The problem is that people are different.

Many people are depressed due to the chemistry in their brain. I know a couple of people who meditate regularly but need anti-depressants because their depression is due to a chemical imbalance in the physical brain.

[Are_grits_groceries]

26. It doesn't work for me

and I wish it did. I have tried a lot of methods to help my depression. I believe anybody who goes through depression will be open to most ideas. However, when they don't work, it's wrong to blame the person and that happens.

After many years, I get so tired of people asking me about exercise, diet, meditation and everything else. I keep up with methods to treat depression. If they are at all viable for me, I try them.

I need medications. I don't want to be dependant on them but the alternative is an unbearable life. The first twinge that reminds me of a start to a major depressive episode is enough to make me panic. I have to rein myself in because that panic brings it closer. Once I can control the panic, the feelings usually pass. Once, they didn't and I was hospitalized.

I'm glad that others can handle their illness with meditation or other measures that don't involve drugs. I get tired of some acting as if I just haven't done it right or tried it long enough.

[pnwmom]

30. You're describing severe episodes of depression, and those are the ones

that are most amenable to treatment with SSRI's and other meds.

But the researchers in the meditation study said most of their patients did not have full blown depression-- and that means SSRI's are unlikely to help them (even though doctors every day prescribe them for patients with low and moderate levels.)

So they might as well try treatments like meditation.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13375-prozac-does-not-work-in-majority-of-depressed-patients.html#.Usu2QhbvxTQ

The antidepressant Prozac and related drugs are no better than placebo in treating all but the most severely depressed patients, according to a damaging assessment of the latest generation of antidepressants.

SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, were supposed to revolutionise care of depression - by treating symptoms without the side effects of older drugs, such as tricyclics.

But despite selling in vast quantities, a new meta-analysis of these drugs, from data presented to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), appears to suggest that for most patients they do not work. A previous study had indicated that the benefits of antidepressants might be exaggerated.

SNIP

They did detect some benefits in the most severely depressed patients. But conclude that in this group the small effect is "due to decreased responsiveness to placebo, rather than increased responsiveness to medication".

[Are_grits_groceries]

32. Thank you for adding yourself to the long list of

people telling me something I already know.
I have had many people insist meditation and other things work regardless of the severity of my condition. Some insist meds are bad,period.

[pnwmom]

33. I didn't insist that meditation would work for you, did I?

But it wasn't obvious that you knew that SSRI's don't work better than placebos for less serious cases of depression, so I mentioned it.

Even though meditation alone is unlikely to help you, there are many others with less severe depression who could benefit -- so this study isn't worthless.

[Are_grits_groceries]

36. I didn't say the study was worthless.

I'm sorry I was snippy.

I have long believed that different people respond uniquely to the treatments used for depression. This is true in general, but I think it's particularly relevant to those with psychiatric issues.

We still know so little about the brain in relation to 'mental illnesses' and the drugs or methods used to treat them. You have to find the right combination and that can be hard to do. In my case, if the meds I was prescribed were not at the right dosage for me, they were basically useless. Getting that exact mix right is frustrating and time consuming.

I think that many people do respond well to meditation, exercise, and other nonpharmaceutical methods. This is the optimum treatment IMO. People get healthier overall without the side effects and other problems.

Hopefully, as research moves forward, doctors will know more about the brain's response to different drugs and treatments in more detail. That will hopefully make the best treatment with the fewest problems more readily apparent.

BTW when I have an anxiety attack, my first line of response is to control my breathing. That may begin to lessen the attack and I don't have to resort to anything else.

[pnwmom]

38. I completely agree that people have their own particular reactions

to treatments, and that's why it is so hard to figure out what things work and what things don't.

We have a lot of anxiety running through our family, and yet everyone is different.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Breath control is an aspect and technique of meditation, perhaps the

central technique. So while you clearly need any medications you benefit from, you say your first response is the use of a technique that is shared with meditation, which I would in fact call meditation.
It seems to me that you use both drugs and meditation techniques, even if that's not what you call your 'breath control'.
I fully support the taking of anything which works for you, but I want to point out that you are using meditation technique and you say it has beneficial outcome. So while that might not be your full treatment regime, it seems to be an aspect of it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

48. I agree.

I know it's an aspect of meditation . I pointed it out to show that I am not hostile to different types of treatment.
It doesn't help with major depressive episodes, but it is still very useful to me.

Some people are 100% meds and others are 100% non-meds methods or they are firmly on one side or the other. The debate can be quite antagonistic. I recognize the usefulness of both depending on the situation.

What irks me though are people insisting I don't need meds. They say I need a better application of other methods. After years of dealing with depression, I have a good idea what helps me.

[get the red out]

35. If it works for you, wonderful

I tried many things to battle my lifelong depression and finally went on meds and was given a life I wouldn't trade for anything. I didn't know the full extent of my misery until it was competently treated. I wasted many years trying to avoid the perceived "crutch" of medication.

If meditation works, use it! If not please don't make the mistake I made out of fear and shame.

[idwiyo]

37. Cherry-picking, and sensationalist headlines - nothing more to be expected from Daily Mail.

One has to be seriously naive to expect solid reporting on scientific matters from that rug.

[HappyMe]

40. If that works for you, great.

That isn't going to work for everyone.

[Ilsa]

42. Why the fuck is everyone on DU all of a sudden playing doctor?

I'm sick of having to hide all of these woo threads.

[Brickbat]

45. When I was suffering from depression, I tried meditation and yoga.

I ended up flexible, calm and depressed.

I tried exercise, and ended up in shape and depressed.

I tried nutrition and calming teas, and I ended up well-fed and hydrated and depressed.

I tried an SSRI, and wasn't depressed anymore.

Were you diagnosed with depression before you started doing yoga and meditation? Have you always done yoga and meditation? Do you have a family history of depression?

[intaglio]

47. Yes it does, but only if you have the motivation to meditate

Depressive illness does not often allow for that motivation and others discounting the need for meds can hurt the sufferer.

There are several techniques that are "better" than meds; Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, T'ai Chi, repeated (not competitive) exercise; but all require the user to acquire and keep the motivation and it is with these 2 elements that medications help

[MineralMan]

50. The Daily Mail has a very poor reputation when it comes

to reporting about scientific or medical matters. It is not a reliable source in either of those areas. Neither is your personal anecdotal report of your experience with meditation.

[DirkGently]

86. How's the AMA?

Psychologists from the University of Exeter recently published a study into "mindfulness-based cognitive therapy" (MBCT), finding it to be better than drugs or counseling for depression. Four months after starting, three quarters of the patients felt well enough to stop taking antidepressants.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindfulness-in-frantic-world/201110/curing-depression-mindfulness-meditation

JUNE 12, 2006 — A relaxation technique known as Transcendental Meditation may decrease blood pressure and reduce insulin resistance among patients with coronary heart disease, according to a report in the June 12 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

http://www.tm.org/american-medical-association

Seriously, what are you guys trying to accomplish with this sudden push for painting anything unconventional as nonsense?

You know that isn't true. Not scientifically, even. Legitimate, rational scientists investigate things like meditation and acupuncture all the time, and regularly find unconventional or traditional methods or medicines effective in a variety of ways.

So what's the game here?

[Humanist_Activist]

87. The issue is that the reporting is poor, it seems to indicate that it should work for all people...

diagnosed as being depressed, when that is NOT what the study says.

Never, ever, trust media to report on science accurately.

[DirkGently]

89. That's a point. But that's not the issue being raised.

I don't see people in this thread arguing that the article isn't nuanced enough. I see them screaming that meditation can be dismissed as "woo" because they say so. Implying that the OP's source is simply wrong. Comparing meditation to telling people to "buck up."

This anti-woo argument being made is irrational, and I'm both amazed and confused by it. I think it's being pushed in bad faith and I can't figure out why.

[Humanist_Activist]

90. Actually the majority, starting with the second post, pointed out how the Daily Fail...

well, failed again at being accurate.

ON EDIT: Notice that the only ones who are talking about woo on this thread are the ones who, I guess, support how the Daily Mail reported on this.

[MineralMan]

97. My comment was regarding the source of this post.

My comment was restricted to the source of the post. I said nothing other than that in my post. You are the one bringing up other sources, which were not included in the original post.

I stand by my comment.

[DirkGently]

110. Great. For a second, it sounded like you wanted to dismiss the article.

That's why I provided the other sources -- so you could see that any implication that the article was unreliable somehow would be bullshit.

Lots of times people criticize the source of information in order to imply the information is suspect. It's not great logic, but you see it a lot from people on these message boards without any real argument to make.

[MineralMan]

116. I made no comment on the content. Only the source.

Sources are important on DU. Poor sources don't provide reliable information. And the Daily Mail is a poor source of historical proportions, especially in their science reporting. I'd never use that publication as a source.

[DirkGently]

118. Glad I could help!

Now we all know they got it right.

[pipi_k]

51. Never tried it for

depression, although I have used it for anxiety/panic disorder/agoraphobia.

It definitely helped me.

What I used was progressive relaxation and imagery.

Because my body was always in a state of tension, I had to teach it what relaxation felt like, and train it to respond appropriately to proper breathing techniques.

I was pretty much panic-free for almost ten years one time. Until a whole bunch of shit happened and I got too overwhelmed and all that crap came right back to bite me in the ass again.

For me, it was sort of a last-ditch thing, since one of my fears involves taking medications and losing control of my own body (example...Xanax relaxed my muscles so much that I felt I was losing control, and that would cause me to have these very weird episodes of mental panic that were extremely scary because my heart and pulse rates would not climb, although my mind was going absolutely crazy).

With meditation/relaxation, I was the one in control, and that's what made all the difference.

[mr blur]

52. Woo woo, indeed.

[leftyladyfrommo]

53. I've done meditation for 40 years and I don't agree with this.

I think there a lot of people who have been sold this idea. And doing meditation sure isn't going to hurt them. But I don't think it helps with any kind of mental illness.

Just my take on it. I could be dead wrong.

[Vashta Nerada]

55. Have bipolar disorder?

Screw the meds! Do meditation!



The Daily Mail is the last place I'd go to for "scientific" news.

[polichick]

62. Yeah, but big pharma doesn't get profits from meditation...

Stick to pharmaceuticals - woo is bad and threatens the whole world.

[Marr]

64. This is a perfect example of how woo is dangerous.

The statement was:

"'In our study, meditation appeared to provide as much relief from some anxiety and depression symptoms as what other studies have found from antidepressants." And the subjects did not have clinical depression.

And yet it's summarized as, "meditation just as effective as anti-depressants".

If some poor depressed person ends up eschewing real medical treatment in favor of meditation and ends up killing themselves one dark night, that's down to woo. A lot of people die in ways like that-- listening to proponents of woo who don't know what they're talking about, but are quite happy to prescribe treatment.

[DirkGently]

77. It's a better example of why "woo" is a silly term.

Really, what is this sudden obsession with this childish "woo" word? I'm really asking.

Weird.

Anyway, no one is going to die because they try meditation for depression. You'd have to assume someone was sucidally depressed, in a way not responsive to meditation, then misread something to think meditation was the only treatment, and then decided not to go to a doctor at all, and then suffered as a result. It's not like trying to fix a broken arm with prayer or something.

Also, meditation is not "woo," whatever that ridiculous made up term is supposed to mean. It has been shown effective, both at treating depression, and for cardiac health.

Psychologists from the University of Exeter recently published a study into "mindfulness-based cognitive therapy" (MBCT), finding it to be better than drugs or counseling for depression. Four months after starting, three quarters of the patients felt well enough to stop taking antidepressants.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindfulness-in-frantic-world/201110/curing-depression-mindfulness-meditation

JUNE 12, 2006 — A relaxation technique known as Transcendental Meditation may decrease blood pressure and reduce insulin resistance among patients with coronary heart disease, according to a report in the June 12 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

http://www.tm.org/american-medical-association

All of which illustrates a couple of things.

First off, many things once considered pseudo-science may be in the process of being scientifically proven. Meditation, for example, has been found to be an effective treatment for a variety of ills, as noted above. If it's "woo," "woo" works.

Or maybe it's just that telling the real from the unreal isn't as easy as jumping in and labeling something as ludicrous without any thought.

Which brings us to the second point shown by this OP, which is the fact that plenty of things that start off without a hard scientific basis turn out to be quite real and valuable, often before the mechanisms that make them work scientifically are understood.

Which further demonstrates why it is so silly for people to run around trying to dismiss anything that comes from the realms of imagination or tradition or folklore, or anywhere but a laboratory without any investigation or discussion.

"Woo" is woo.

[jeff47]

91. You're a fantastic demonstration of the danger of woo like this article.

The study you and the OP were discussing were people who did not have clinical depression.

You are declaring meditation as a cure for people with clinical depression. That isn't backed up at all by the study. In fact, the studies behind the drugs show they don't work on people with mild depression. In other words, this study is talking about a technique that helps people who drugs can not help, and you (and the article) are applying it to all depression.

You'd have to assume someone was sucidally depressed, in a way not responsive to meditation, then misread something to think meditation was the only treatment, and then decided not to go to a doctor at all, and then suffered as a result

You've apparently never met someone with actual clinical depression.

Here's what happens: We're depressed. You, person number 267,347 to suggest something stupid that doesn't work, suggests something stupid that doesn't work. What you don't understand is you are reinforcing the sense of "wrongness" we experience - once again, we should be able to fix our depression ourselves. And so we retreat further into depression because yet again we are supposed to fix it but can not.

As a result, we think "why bother going to a doctor? It'll just be yet another thing that doesn't work." Thus no medication, and thus greatly increasing the chance they'll manage to work up the energy for suicide - there's a lot of people with clinical depression who are only alive because they can't work up sufficient drive to kill themselves.

In short, you are arguing that we should spend more time inside our minds, unaware of the demons that lurk therein.

What we need is drugs to fix what's wrong in our brains. After the drugs have stabilized the situation, a good percentage of us can go off the drugs and use other techniques to keep ourselves from becoming depressed again. Others will have to keep using drugs.

[DirkGently]

102. Fascinating. I didn't say any of those things.

You are declaring meditation as a cure for people with clinical depression

Where did I say that?

In short, you are arguing that we should spend more time inside our minds, unaware of the demons that lurk therein.

Or that?

My post points out that you can't dismiss meditation as "woo." Which is true.

If you want to win an argument about mind demons and curing clinical depression without drugs in all cases, you're going to have to ask the strawman you just pulled from your derriere.

[jeff47]

117. Actually, you did.

Where did I say that?

Right here:

It has been shown effective, both at treating depression

As well as quoting studies that didn't actually show it to be effective for clinical depression, just helpful for mild depression. That indicates you don't understand the difference.

In short, you are arguing that we should spend more time inside our minds, unaware of the demons that lurk therein.

Or that?

Reading comprehension. Might wanna try it. For example, that isn't a quote from you. It's a summary of what your position appears to be from someone who actually suffered from clinical depression.

Pushing for meditation as a cure for clinical depression means you have zero understanding of actual clinical depression. That sentence is an attempt to get you to start thinking beyond how your mind works. Because in those of us with clinical depression, our minds do not work like yours does thanks to differences in brain chemistry.

My post points out that you can't dismiss meditation as "woo." Which is true.

The woo is claiming it is an effective treatment for clinical depression. It isn't. None of the studies you are pointing to support that claim. They only claim it helps mild depression - clinical depression is a far different beast. As evidenced by drugs like SSRIs working on clinical depression, but not moderate depression.

It's a little like saying your favorite treatment for mild sunburn cures skin cancer.

Also, pushing for it as a cure does actual harm to people who actually have clinical depression. Your post utterly dismisses that because it doesn't make sense in your head. But your head isn't the one with the depressed brain inside it.

[DirkGently]

125. Yes, you're wrong. The studies found meditation effective

in treating depression. 47 clinical trials, apparently.

Palm Beach Daily News

An analysis of 47 clinical trials published Monday online in the Journal of the American Medical Association reveals that a half an hour of meditation a day can reduce symptoms of those conditions.

- See more at: http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/lifestyles/medical/study-meditation-may-relieve-mild-to-moderate-depr/ncdf2/#sthash.dtQfB5xD.dpuf

Forbes

A new review study, out yesterday in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Internal Medicine, finds that mindfulness meditation may rival antidepressants in easing the symptoms of depression

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml

In fact the articles indicate meditation was found as good as antidepressants in some cases. If you want to append asterisks as to whether the depression studied was "clinical" or not, that's fine, but that's actually your reading comprehension problem, not anyone else's.

It is absolutely, completely, 100% wrong to assert any kind "woo" factor to these reports. Meditation has not been considered frivolous or useless for a long time now.

Which is the problem with this entire childish woo brigade nonsense. It's irrational and illogical, and as far from science or reason as one can possibly get. No one serious about any area of knowledge gets red in the face at the idea something unfamiliar to them might be substantive. That's more like religion.

I don't know where your irrational hostility for the fact that meditation has been found effective comes from, or how you equate a simple news report summarizing these findings equals "pushing for meditation as a cure," but you obviously can't discuss the topic rationally, so this will have to be it between us on this topic.

Good luck.

[uppityperson]

130. However, they do say "can" and " may", not "will", at least in those clips.

And you do know there is a HUGE difference between clinical and situation depression, right?

[Humanist_Activist]

132. You seem to, yet again, not understand the difference between mild and moderate depression...

versus severe and clinical depression. As such, I think you are simply not interested in understanding the difference, which you own links make, I might add, for no better reason than you being willfully ignorant.

[DirkGently]

136. The articles make no claims about types of depression.

Neither did I. The articles discuss depression in general terms, and I added nothing to that.

Neither they nor I or wrong because you contend "depression" means "severe clinical depression" unless otherwise stated.

You are making up a disagreement as though the article said something it didn't say.

[Humanist_Activist]

137. Your first link has it as the TITLE of the article, do you not read?

Actually, I take back what I said about media in general, the Palm Beach Daily News actually has a decent and more informative headline, I have no complaints about that, you however, are misrepresenting what they are reporting.

[jeff47]

144. Again, moderate depression and clinical depression are different things

You're still using a sunburn remedy to treat skin cancer.

In fact the articles indicate meditation was found as good as antidepressants in some cases.

And those cases were mild/moderate depression.

Guess what doesn't respond well to antidepressants? Mild/moderate depression.

Guess what responds well to antidepressants? Clinical depression.

They are different conditions.

It is absolutely, completely, 100% wrong to assert any kind "woo" factor to these reports.

Depends which report.

The papers actually differentiate between mild/moderate depression and clinical depression.

The popular articles, and you, do not. Thus they, and you, are using "woo", because your favorite activity does not work for clinical depression. The very papers you cite say so.

Which is the problem with this entire childish woo brigade nonsense. It's irrational and illogical, and as far from science or reason as one can possibly get. No one serious about any area of knowledge gets red in the face at the idea something unfamiliar to them might be substantive. That's more like religion.

You bring up papers. They say they meditation does not work for all kinds of depression. You are saying meditation works on all kinds of depression.

I'm not the anti-science one here.

but you obviously can't discuss the topic rationally, so this will have to be it between us on this topic.

Yeah, doing anything else might require you to actually read your own sources.

Just one final tip: Do not give any advice to someone with clinical depression. You understanding of it is so horribly bad you will likely cause harm.

[Arcanetrance]

105. Thank you very much

I suffer from severe depression. That's exactly what it's like society puts it back on us as being defective and wrong. I'm one of the people that did manage to work up the energy to try and kill myself and i was very briefly dead if it weren't for a couple family members who work in the medical field it would have been permanent .

[LAGC]

142. Don't ever blame yourself for what happened.

Many people just don't understand what its like suffering from clinical depression.

They may have had a bad day on occasion and figured it was kind of like that, but they have no idea how it really feels THROUGHOUT EACH DAY when you are suffering from acute chemical imbalances in the brain.

This "blame the victim" mentality, this attitude of telling people suffering from this condition that if they "just meditated" everything would be okay is what is holding back scientific progress in this country and making it hard to treat mental illness in general.

I'm glad you survived your suicide attempt.

[Marr]

98. Telling the clinically depressed that meditation is just as good as medication is absolutely woo.

It isn't even supported by the study under discussion-- and yet, right here in this thread, we see many people who make no distinction between "some symptoms of anxiety found in people who are not clinically depressed" and clinical depression, which is a life threatening condition.

Life threatening conditions aren't mysterious little puzzles to throw some loopy folklore at on the off chance that it might be efficacious. If you aren't a doctor you have no business prescribing treatments and claiming that it's every bit as good as actual science-based medicine. People really do die from this sort of thing, all the time.

[DirkGently]

107. The study shows meditation is not "loopy folklore."

I don't think the OP or anyone else has made the argument that people should throw away their prescribed medications. So it's not "woo" and I also think you're stretching to object on the basis that the article or the OP is telling people other than what it says, which is that a study found meditation effective.

No one is going to die on the basis of a news article describing a study that found meditation effective against depression. Neither the OP nor the article is untrue or in any way encourages people to ignore conventional medicine.

[gollygee]

65. I don't have depression but I have another medical issue

severe chronic migraine headaches. And people are always telling me stupid stuff like "just suck on a peppermint! That works too!" or to try acupuncture or aromatherapy or whatever.

I've tried Everything. Wasted money for no good reason. And I can't tell you how annoying that kind of suggestion is to someone suffering from some kind of medical problem.

The only thing that has worked for me is to take an ongoing preventative medication and to take another medication when I get a headache. That's it.

I'm guessing people who suffer from severe depression feel the same away about suggestions that they try just relaxing or meditating. (And I'm aware they aren't the same precise thing but I also know how that kind of suggestion sounds to people when you tell them that kind of thing.)

[Adrahil]

67. Maybe for some....

.... but my wife meditates regularly, and over the last few years she began very depressed and anxious. Last year, her docotor suggested a seratonin uptake inhibitor, and it's been night and day. She's cheerful and angage MUCH more often and is able to some things that made her crippilingly anxious.

I'm not saying meditation isn't beneficial (I think it is), but don't completely disregard chemistry.

[hrmjustin]

73. I love to walk.

[hrmjustin]

80. I agree. I feel one with nature when I walk along the harbor here.

I hate gyms as well.

[jeff47]

93. Yes, when someone is clinically depressed it's so easy to get up and go for a stroll.

[cbayer]

75. 'These patients did not typically have full-blown anxiety or depression.'

That's a quote from the leader of the study.

That's a really important piece of information. If these "patients" did not meet the criteria for a major depressive or anxiety disorder, the headline and information provided in the article is grossly misleading.

And if this keeps people with major illnesses from taking medications, that would be very troublesome.

[villager]

79. Woo woo! Snark snark! Close-minded automatic dismissal!

There -- have I covered the basic DU "template" response, or did I leave anything out...?

[DirkGently]

83. Seriously, what ARE they talking about?

What is this sudden obsession with this asinine term "woo?"

What is the argument -- obviously some things are real and rational and some are not. What is this fixation with wanting to affix this stupid slang term to things?

Is there a particular idea someone is trying to dismiss, or is the argument that a handful of posters on DU are the sole arbiters of what is real and what is not?

What started it?

Weird, weird, weird.

[1000words]

82. Meditation changed my life

"Woo," alright ... Woo-hoo!

[NCTraveler]

100. I really don't like articles like this.

People suffering from anxiety or depression often can't properly meditate until they find the proper medication for their condition. It also promotes an already existing stigma that those suffering from depression or anxiety are just looking to pills as their way out when they could be doing meditation which would help them just as much. The study also doesn't match the claim made in the headline.

Both depression and anxiety take a multi pronged approach. Almost all doctors stress this to their patients when putting them on medication. Even those who are helped by medication alone can benefit greatly by combining medication with other things in their life, often lowering their dosage or helping to manage episodes. Exercise, meditation, therapy, ect.... If a person suffers from either of these problems, and relies on medication alone, they are doing it wrong. Often the fault is not the patients alone.

Anxiety: With many people, exercise, therapy, and a proper diet can be just as effective as medication. Yet they will still suffer from anxiety. Medication alone can be just as effective as exercise, therapy, and a proper diet. Yet they will still suffer from anxiety. A combination of all of the above will have the greatest effect.

Medication is rarely the answer to depression or anxiety, although it is an extremely important part of the answer. For many with more extreme anxiety or depression, medication is the starting point. It will get them over the hump to where they can take part in these other measures. If you haven't met someone who suffers from more extreme bouts of anxiety, you won't understand that every part of daily life is an extreme struggle. The struggle is to the point that meditation and exercise aren't even really an option until they find the proper medication. That starting point is so important.

[Warren Stupidity]

101. When non-traditional approaches are evaluated using appropriate methodologies

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

and found to be effective, they are no longer "woo". When people refuse to admit that, they are being irrational, they are allowing their emotional aversion to non traditional* approaches to healing get in the way of clear thinking and rational evaluation of the issue.












* and I am using "traditional" and "non traditional" here in a way that deliberately illustrates what the problem is.

[Humanist_Activist]

108. True, but the reporting here is inaccurate...

Meditation may indeed be effective and better, than medication, in some types of depression, mostly situation and acute triggered depressions, mild depressions, but not all types of depression.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. the reporting may very well be inaccurate but the reactions here

from many aren't to the slipshod reporting but to "the very idea" that meditation could be an effective treatment. And that is ironic, and sad.

[DirkGently]

115. Weirdly irrational, eh?

Do YOU have any idea where this weird "woo" war came from?

Does some group have something riding on the notion that anything the slightest bit unconventional can't possibly be good for anything?

It's meditation, for Pete's sake. No one has thought meditation was crazy for a long time.

And yet, witness the rage at a simple article pointing out that it works. It's like they're terrified of something.

"First, we admitted meditation worked. Next thing you know, they replaced all our brain surgeons with Santeria priests."

[Warren Stupidity]

120. Some people seem to be allergic on principle to anything not a knife

a shot or a pill.

Indeed - evidence of the beneficial effects of meditation, diet, and exercise have all been studied and these common sense practices are becoming, have become, part of standard medical practice. The gyrations here are *spectacular*.

There are good reasons to object to actual woo.

[DirkGently]

124. At this point, I'm skeptical of anyone calling things "woo."

Doesn't seem to be in good faith. It's like some people's whole word view is threatened if anything non-traditional turns out to be real.

That, or we're beset by stockholders in pharmaceutical companies.

[Humanist_Activist]

122. Where is the evidence of these reactions? Or do you enjoy erecting strawmen? n/t

[uppityperson]

112. "CAN" not "does". eom

[Sgent]

119. What does this have to do with Woo??????

Its been studied, it works, its now part of western medicine at least within the parameters of the study (and similar ones). We still use leaches in certain situations as well.

This doesn't require mountains of evidence, since we know that cognitive therapy can have beneficial effects on depression, so its not a stretch to think that guided meditation could have similar effects.

That being said, I still wouldn't feel comfortable with this treatment being pursued by someone who has a psychiatric problem unless directed to by their doctor or other provider. This maybe a good solution for someone going through a bad divorce, or for someone wishing to withdrawal from existing anit-depressants. It maybe a terrible solution for someone who's actively suicidal or has severe mental illness. Finally, until someone undergo's a medical evaluation you don't know if its mental illness or something else (thyroid issues or cancer, brain tumors, etc.).

[DirkGently]

127. It illustrates that "woo" is a nonsense argument.

As you can see from the thread, lots of people are frantically denouncing a pretty run-of-the-mill article about a JAMA report that simply confirms meditation can help with depression -- better than meds in some cases.

There are all kinds of contortions being made and straw men built in order to object to a perfectly ordinary piece of knowledge -- that meditation works. Someone actually claimed it was "dangerous," on the basis everyone with depression will now stop going to the doctor.

It's a really weird kind of rigid thinking, and the tone is of people whose religious beliefs have been threatened. Apparently it is frightening that anything not completely pedestrian and mainstream ever be taken seriously -- a view that no real scientist would even take.

[Auntie Bush]

128. Woo!

[MellowDem]

138. You don't understand what "woo" is...

Subjects that can be and have been tested using the scientific method to explain phenomena are not woo. Baseless untested claims are, much less claims that can never be tested.

If yoga can be tested in a vigorous scientific manner, and it's effects studied, then it's not woo per se. Claiming yoga helps people because of spirits or some such is woo, when the simple answer may be that we don't know yet why, and we need to study it more to find out.