Detroit police chief: Legal gun owners can deter crime

[hack89]

Detroit— If more citizens were armed, criminals would think twice about attacking them, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said Thursday.

Craig said he started believing that legal gun owners can deter crime when he became police chief in Portland, Maine, in 2009. “Coming from California (Craig was on the Los Angeles police force for 28 years), where it takes an act of Congress to get a concealed weapon permit, I got to Maine, where they give out lots of CCWs (carrying concealed weapon permits), and I had a stack of CCW permits I was denying; that was my orientation.

“I changed my orientation real quick. Maine is one of the safest places in America. Clearly, suspects knew that good Americans were armed.”

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038#ixzz2piczjWvg

Interesting perspective from a large city chief of police.

[hobbit709]

1. Until they commit the crime.

[hack89]

2. Ah yes - all those pre-criminals walking around

isn't it good to see a police chief that doesn't look at the people he serves and sees nothing more than crimes not yet happened. I bet he would never consider search and frisk like our favorite gun control ex-mayor.

[Blue_Tires]

75. I seem to remember another recent case where a teenager was given the "pre-criminal" treatment

and executed by a proud, patriotic, gun-owning citizen...This citizen was not only exonerated and cleared of any wrongdoing (after his attorney very effectively slandered the reputation of the decedent while playing up every trite, age-old racial stereotype in the book), but treated as a celebrity and celebrated as an all-conquering hero standing up to crime...A true paragon of Second Amendment rights at work for everyone to emulate -- Not just in his own community and state, but on a supposedly quasi-leftist political message board as well...

I don't suppose you'd know anything about this??

[hack89]

78. Because every gun owner is a Zimmerman?

thanks for making my point for me.

[Blue_Tires]

80. Seems to me like damn near every gun owner lined up to defend him...

Last edited Tue Jan 7, 2014, 03:47 PM - Edit history (2)

or did all those donations to his legal fund and recent art sale (lolz) come out of the ether?

And I fucking well know which people were the FIRST to celebrate and trying to rub my face in shit after the acquittal...And YOU know these people I'm referring to, too...

Face it -- The Zimmerman case was the proverbial line in the sand, and the gunners on DU and elsewhere made it crystal clear on which side they stood...And that's fine -- I've just never been the forgive-and-forget type...And BTW thank you for sidestepping my point about Trayvon being tried, convicted and executed for a "pre-crime"...

To put it in gunner language, the Zimmerman trial was my 1994 AW ban...

[hack89]

81. ok nt

[11 Bravo]

87. I'm a gun owner, and I wanted Zimmerman to wind up UNDER the fucking jail!

But please proceed.

[seveneyes]

3. Cold steel does not influence people to commit crimes

It's not a crime to defend oneself.

[Bandit]

19. BS, people steal to get guns all the time.

In fact it is stolen guns that are involved in most gun crimes. Where do you suppose those stolen guns come from?

[seveneyes]

66. Missing the point

Honest people owing a self defense weapon does not make them suddenly turn to crime.

[bowens43]

4. just what we need, a bunch of gun nuts walking around trying to deter crime

what a fucking idiot

[hack89]

8. They are not "trying to deter crime"

the chief is saying their mere presence is a deterrence.

[FrodosPet]

14. As opposed to a bunch of gun nuts walking around robbing and killing

Because that is what is happening now.

So, somehow the police of Detroit need to disarm the thousands of people carrying illegal weapons who may or will commit firearm violence. And they need to do it without stop and frisk, warrant-less wiretaps and house searches, or the cooperation of their scared neighbors.

It blows my mind when people are more concerned about their agenda than the hundreds of thousands of good people in Detroit trapped by the actions of street criminals, bankkkers, and their own incompetent local government.

[Lizzie Poppet]

56. "Shall issue" CCW permits are the norm in this country.

There are few exceptions at this point. Do please note the conspicuous absence of the "shootouts in the streets," "rivers of blood," and "untold numbers of wounded or killed bystanders" that the hand-wringers predicted.

[SecularMotion]

5. From the link

Robyn Thomas, director of the the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence in San Francisco, disagreed.

“I think at its core, his position is an emotional one, based on the idea that people feel safer when they have guns. But studies have shown more guns don’t deter crime,” Thomas said. “There’s no research that shows guns make anyone safer, and it does show that, the more guns in any situation, the higher the likelihood of them harming either the owner, or people who have access to them.”

[hack89]

7. I think the Chief knows his city better than Robyn Thomas

he also doesn't have a political axe to grind.

[SecularMotion]

15. Robyn Thomas bases her opinion on studies and research that show owning guns does not make you safer

It appears the opinion of the Chief is based only on his personal beliefs.

I'll go with the opinion based on facts.

[hack89]

16. We are talking about a very small subset of gun owners

of which there are reams of information demonstrating that they commit crimes at a much lower rate than the general population. Roybn and you are deliberately confusing the issue by conflating a small group gun owners with all gun owners (legal AND illegal). Sorry - most Americans are much smarter than that.

[SecularMotion]

20. 'Guns do not make a country safer,' study suggests

Gun ownership has long been the cause of controversial debate, particularly in the US. Now, a new study has suggested that countries with higher levels of gun ownership are not safer than those with lower levels

Researchers from St. Luke's Roosevelt Hospital, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, and the New York University Langone Medical Center analyzed data from 27 developed countries, looking at possible associations between gun ownership rates, mental illness, and the risk of firearm-related death.

Their research was published in The American Journal of Medicine.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/266316.php

[hack89]

23. The subject is CCW carriers

stop muddying the waters.

[SecularMotion]

24. CCW carriers are a subset of gun owners

Stop trying to deny reality.

[hack89]

26. A subset that commits crimes at a significantly lower rate than the general public

the fact that you cannot (or deliberately refuse to) differentiate between legal and illegal gun owners is typical.

There is room in this debate for nuance and shades of gray - try it instead of your usual "all gun owners are pre-criminals". Maybe then you will get the cooperation from gun owners you need to pass gun control measures like UBCs and magazine limits.

[SecularMotion]

36. Your argument that legal gun carriers commit less crime than illegal gun carriers is irrelevant.

Research shows that having a gun in the home does not make you safer The odds are greater that the gun will be the cause of an accidental death or injury than being used as a weapon of self-defense

I've never argued that "all gun owners are pre-criminals".

[hack89]

38. I always hear about this research

can you provide a link?

[SecularMotion]

44. Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

[hack89]

51. Interesting

two comments:

I can see the impact on suicides but can't see how gun control laws will help short of a system to disarm people that are suicidal. It would be hard with significant privacy issues but if it can be done with due process then I would support it. The real solution is single payer health care with mental health care.

As for violence, lets not forget that lumped into the study group are criminals and other persons not able to legally own guns. It also includes people living in high crime neighborhoods. Lets not overlook what the researchers had to say:

Third, it is possible that the association between a gun in the home and risk of a violent death may be related to other factors that we were unable to control for in our analysis. For instance, with homicide, the association may be related to certain neighborhood characteristics or the decedent’s previous involvement in other violent or illegal behaviors. Persons living in high-crime neighborhoods or involved in illegal behaviors may acquire a gun for protection. The risk comes not necessarily from the presence of the gun in the house but from these types of environmental factors and exposures.

Because we know with absolute certainty that violence is generally geographically concentrated in high crime areas with high levels of poverty and unemployment.

And we also have this comment from the study:

...unable to weigh the risk of a violent death against any protective benefits of gun ownership.

[hack89]

34. Lets look at ten years of CCW reality in Michigan.

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize. Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said. My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110731/NEWS06/107310482/10-years-after-concealed-weapons-law-unclear-why-many-state-were-gun-shy

[Eleanors38]

45. Thomas errs badly when he says no one is made "any safer"

by being armed.

The armed citizen is made safer.

As to the social phenomenon of whether significant numbers of armed people deter crime, the jury is still out.

Now that concealed-carry is a fact in virtually every state, it would be wise to assemble a study, if possible, which would prove or dis-prove the chief's contention. One thing seems evident: The "rise of concealed carry" has not been met with a "rising tide of gun violence" if the data we do have are indicators.

DUers should note that Pro-2A folks have been loath to post gun issues in GD, while controller/banners have enthusiastically done so in violation of GD's TOS.

You may expect that situation to change.

[G_j]

6. from LA to Portland Maine?

I would think Portland safer, regardless.

[hack89]

10. Maine has very liberal gun laws (including open carry) with low crime rates

perhaps he thinks the same can happen in Detroit. At a minimum he knows that legal gun ownership is not the problem he faces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Maine

[dionysus]

50. portland is also tiny, there's more than one demographic at play.

[hack89]

54. So lets look a ten years of CCW history in Michigan

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize. Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said. My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110731/NEWS06/107310482/10-years-after-concealed-weapons-law-unclear-why-many-state-were-gun-shy

I think the Chief understands very well what the real problem is and it is not CCW holders.

[dionysus]

55. i'm not in the group that considers CCW a problem, i just doubt how much it will deter crime.

[sweetapogee]

73. Thus sayeth hack89...

"Maine has very liberal gun laws (including open carry) with low crime rates."

You bring up a very good point. Liberal gun laws would be less restrictive. Liberals who advocate gun control are actually not advocating a liberal perspective, rather restrictive gun control laws are conservative.

In other words, a conservative would take a "we are not going to take any chances" view and remove guns from society. So an argument could be made that gun control liberals are actually conservative in their thinking on this subject. Sorry if this offends but that is the way i see it.

[hack89]

74. I am a liberal that favors liberal gun laws. nt

[A Little Weird]

27. Exactly

The city of Los Angeles has a larger population than the entire state of Maine. They are very different places for many reasons besides gun laws.

I have no idea of gun ownership deters crime, but I don't think this guy does either.

[spanone]

9. let's issue guns at birth...there would be no crime

[hack89]

11. Thanks for your insightful contribution nt

[spanone]

12. maybe pre-natal?

[hack89]

13. I oppose invasive procedures as a matter of principal. nt

[billh58]

17. While I disagree with

the premise that more guns is ever a solution to anything, James Craig appears to at least have some common sense:

"Although Craig supports having more legal gun owners, he has also emphasized confiscating illegal weapons. On Thursday, he said that in Detroit, each time they take an illegal gun off the street, they've likely prevented a robbery or shooting down the line. He also supports banning assault weapons, regulating magazines and ammunition and enforcing tighter background checks at gun shows, according to the Detroit News."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/03/james-craig-detroit-guns_n_4536332.html

[hack89]

21. The problem has always been illegal guns

that is what law enforcement needs to focus on.

[billh58]

25. Chicken or egg?

Illegal guns at some point in their journey to the hands of a criminal were "legal." Lax gun laws, ease of acquisition, straw purchases, and lack of mandated owner responsibility and accountability all feed the pipeline that supplies criminals with illegal guns.

Gun manufacturers don't care what happens to their product after the first 'legal" sale, nor do their legislative lap dogs. Until meaningful gun control legislation is enacted at the federal level, arming more citizens will only lead to more guns in the hands of criminals.

And therein lies the real problem.

[hack89]

28. Quadruple the size of the ATF and have them focus on illegal gun sales

the majority of illegal guns come from dirty gun dealers - start there.

[billh58]

46. That, of course, is

the NRA stance: there is no need for additional gun legislation -- just enforce the laws already on the books and everything will be fine.

Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work that way because illegal guns are a huge business in this country due to both lax laws and lax enforcement of existing laws.

See "Ten Key State Laws That Curb Illegal Gun Trafficking" and the Red right-wing states which are the top sources of illegal guns.

http://www.tracetheguns.org/#

I assume that you will disregard anything that doesn't fit into your "more guns is better" view of the American gun culture, but there is change on the horizon, and a new generation of Americans who do not idolize guns is coming of age.

Cheers...

[hack89]

53. I do not support more guns are better

I support all proposed gun control legislation with the exception of registration and an AWB. I live in a state with UBCs for example - I think every state should do the same.

[mstinamotorcity2]

18. I disagree with the New Police Chief.

He just got here and his days of residency are long gone. What he says is the statistical rates for Portland Maine. Not Detroit.

[hack89]

22. There are a multitude of states that track CCW carriers and crime rates

Texas has done so for decades. There is plenty of hard data from various demographics that show CCW holders commit crime at rates significantly lower than the general public.

The Chief, unlikely many here, is willing to distinguish between legal and illegal gun owners.

[mstinamotorcity2]

39. Well the Chief just got here.

And raw data doesn't actually reflect the outcomes. It can't. It can only give a baseline place to work from. It can not measure all the parameters surrounding legal and illegal gun violence. And where I come from violence is violence whether you commit it with a legal gun, or an illegal gun. And you may be one to go by the Chief's heartfelt synopsis of what he thinks Detroiters should do, but a lot of things are going on here that he had nothing to do with. He has not partnered with our neighborhoods or anything else. So read what ever but maybe you need to ask real folk.

[hack89]

41. OK. nt

[mstinamotorcity2]

47. Wasn't being Snarky.

But everything being reported is not true. A lot is scripted because of this Bankruptcy. And voice of ordinary neighborhood folks are not being addressed. The false narrative about stupid issues have clouded some of the political games going on. We do have a crime problem but its not because of legal or illegal guns. Its loss of Manufacturing jobs. Lots of crimes are being committed in our suburbs. And Detroit will get the blame, because they will leave some evidence of their crime in our city. The body, the car, the weapon, or something. Why?? Because its easier to hide your crime in a big city that once had the reputation of being the Murder Capital during the Country's crack epidemic. If you ask people in our neighborhoods who is it that purchase the most drugs in our city? They will tell you white suburbanites.

[Hoyt]

29. So now rather than taking one's wallet and leaving, they'll shoot you immediately and

take your wallet. . . . . . and gun that you never had a chance to pull. Chief is wrong on this and needs to do his job to fight crime.

[hack89]

33. See post #30. History says you are wrong. nt

[Hoyt]

42. Nope, Post 30 does not prove me wrong.

If folks follow Chief's advice, criminals will just shoot you as soon as close enough. No more "give me your wallet, and I won't hurt you." Now, they'll take your wallet from your cold dead body . . . . . . and your gun that is still in your pants because they just shot you before you even knew you were a victim.

Plus, we'll have more Zimmermans running around saying they are helping the Chief fight crime. Defense, "Chief told me to pack, and I saw a suspicious teen, so I shot him, sorry he was unarmed and just walking home, but the Chief didn't say I had to be right."

[hack89]

43. A five fold increase in CCW holders over 10 years with no increase in gun violence proves you right?

got it.

[seveneyes]

70. As if all wallet thieves are murderers

I suspect most thieves don't want to be in prison for life.

[hack89]

30. Ten years of liberal CCW in Michigan shows no negative impact

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize. Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said. My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110731/NEWS06/107310482/10-years-after-concealed-weapons-law-unclear-why-many-state-were-gun-shy

[TheCowsCameHome]

31. Yeah, this should work well, chief.

Comparing Detroit to Portland (or Maine in general) is just plain nuts.

[hack89]

37. Lets compare Michigan to Michigan

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize. Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said. My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110731/NEWS06/107310482/10-years-after-concealed-weapons-law-unclear-why-many-state-were-gun-shy

[Lint Head]

32. Why doesn't the Detroit police chief just resign. Everybody would be armed and there would be no

need for police. No more police beatings or corruption.

More guns equals less violence. That formula is ridiculous on it's face.

[hack89]

35. But Michigan's history shows more guns do not equal more violence

at least with CCW carriers (which is what we are talking about)

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize. Today, nearly 276,000 -- or about four out of every 100 eligible adult Michiganders -- are licensed.

But violent crimes have been rare among carrying a concealed weapon license holders. Only 2% of license holders have been sanctioned for any kind of misbehavior, State Police records show.

Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said. My position was, and still is, is that the people we have a problem with with guns aren't the people who are willing to follow the law and go through the hoops and training," Bouchard said.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110731/NEWS06/107310482/10-years-after-concealed-weapons-law-unclear-why-many-state-were-gun-shy

[Eleanors38]

57. Police are not charged with protecting you.

You may want that. I may want that. The police themselves may want that, and even try to do that. But their legal responsibility is to investigate crimes (the vast majority of which occur with no police presence at the scene), collect evidence and statements, pursue and apprehend suspects, and present all of this to a state's attorney. Police are absolutely necessary for these functions (which are great deterrents), and those instances when they happen onto a crime-in-progress.

But day-to-day crime deterrence and protection? That's on the citizenry; arms are a part of that.

[Hoyt]

58. You gun fanciers keep saying that, but it's not true. The court decisions basically say you can't

sue police department, government, etc., for failing to protect you. It does not say police are not there to protect you, will refuse to protect you, you are on your own, etc. Stop spreading NRA gun love in an attempt to rationalize your gun obsession/needs.

[Eleanors38]

63. Thanks for the support. BTW, it is not the courts' job

to tell the citizenry what to do concerning protection. Just what the police are supposed to do.

[Hoyt]

68. You still don't get it. Police are not "supposed" to turn their back on you. You just

You just can't sue them if they don't arrive in time, fail to spot a crime, etc. So, you don't need to carry a gun because the police won't help you. They will and do every day. They are assholes in other contexts, but you are not on your own as you seem to think when you strap your gun on to venture out to the grocery store.

Fact is, Eleanor's 38 Special, you don't need to play police like Zimmerman, no matter how much you want folks to believe that.

[Eleanors38]

71. Goodness, the straw.

Whether you strap on a gun or not, you are on your own. A neighbor or stranger might help, Batman may happen by, a robber might suffer an acute flare-up of neuro syphilis, but that is deus ex machina on our world stage. Better to take reasonable and common sense measures you have control over.

[Ranchemp.]

69. As usual Hoyt, you're wrong again.

The courts have said time and time again that LE is not there to protect the individual citizen, they are there to protect society in general and cannot be sued for not intervening in an ongoing crime against a citizen.
The only time LE is obligated to protect the individual is when said individual is in LE custody.

[Fumesucker]

40. Coincidentally or not, Maine is also one of the whitest places in the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maine#Demographics

[oldhippie]

48. So, what are you implying .....

.... by noting this coincidence?

[The Straight Story]

49. Maybe the same thing others imply when they tie gun owners to things based on

less than 1% of gun owners?

Stereotyping and bias - funny how people run to embrace the tactic on some things and condemn it when applied equally to something else eh?

[Fumesucker]

61. I just wonder what the article in the OP is implying

It may well be a coincidence that one of the most monochromatic places in the US was used as an example of a low crime area.

On the other hand there is always the possibility of an agenda.

[hack89]

64. Maine was mentioned in the OP because the chief mentioned it

as a place that changed his outlook on legal gun ownership.

I think race has nothing to do with violent crime rates - poverty, unemployment and desperation breeds crime regardless of race.

Secondly, I think the point about Maine is interesting because they do have very liberal gun laws (open carry, shall issue CCW and no AWB) and low crime. There are some gun control proponents that argue that such laws lead to high levels of gun violence in and of themselves.

[Glassunion]

52. What oldhippie said. I'm also interested to know why you went out of your way to point this out.

[Eleanors38]

59. The trouble with analyzing stuff through racial lenses instead

of class and culture. Most data show the poorer a community -- or individual -- is, the more likely the odds of crime commission and victimization, there are other factors as well. We have had a discussion which has touched on small-v-large states and cities, and implied rural traditions. And in other fora and groups the "phenomenon" of declining old white populations arming to protect their "privileges" is a common theme. It's an unfortunate shorthand that homogeneous populations make for statistical quick work.

In the end, a solid middleclass black neighborhood like Lincoln Estates (G'ville) are probably safer than some areas of primarily white Ocala and Jacksonville.

Race is used by a lot of folk here, when it suits their arguments.

[Glassunion]

60. Indeed

[Fumesucker]

62. I'm interested in why it wasn't pointed out in the article in the OP

The failure to mention the demographic disparity makes me wonder what the agendas of everyone involved with the writing and publication of the piece might be.

It may just be my tinnitus but I'm getting a hint of dog whistle from this.

[hack89]

65. Are you equally concerned with the chief's agenda

seeing how he was the one who brought up his experience in Maine? Are you thinking that race shaded his comment?

[Fumesucker]

76. I think his comment may have been used because it could be a stand-in for race

Come on, Detroit equals black and LA definitely isn't lily white in the public perception but Maine most certainly is thought of as white.

Everyone has an agenda, you and I both just alike.

I attended a family Christmas gathering this year that featured a really big white dude striding around with a handgun in a holster on his hip, this is the last guy anyone in their right mind would attack, just him falling on you could be fatal. It really put me off the Christmas spirit trying to imagine what my family member was so afraid of that he had to come armed to a Christmas party, it was that jarring. Perhaps he took that whole liberal "war on Christmas" thing a bit too seriously?

The fact the party was in a very mixed race neighborhood isn't lost on me.

[hack89]

79. Or because understanding how he came to believe what he believes about gun ownership

is important to the story? Don't you think the "why" is just as important as the "what"?

[mstinamotorcity2]

77. that is not a hint of a dog whistle.

Its blowing loud as can be.

[hack89]

82. The chief is AA - why would he be blowing that particular dog whistle? nt

[mstinamotorcity2]

85. The chief was ultimately hired

by governor Snyder and Kevin Orr. the fix was in before the vetting. Are we supposed to trust any of this??? And please don't insult my intelligence by assuming that because someone is BLACK that they can't have an alternative agenda. It doesn't fit your intelligence. Who would make a subliminal suggestion to have armed individuals out to kill their own people. Not cool.

[hack89]

88. ok nt

[JNelson6563]

67. I've never fired a gun in my life.

But if I moved down to Detroit I would buy a gun and learn to use it in short order. And I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about that.

Julie

[Blue_Tires]

72. The people of Sanford, Florida certainly think so...

In fact, that jury (along with many DUers) taught me that a crime technically doesn't even have to be in progress to be "deterred&quot !)

Since people of a certain ethnicity have the overwhelming presumption from the legal system of being criminals anyway, the State of Florida has set the precedent that it's perfectly ok to perform summary executions...

[mstinamotorcity2]

86. thank you

[phone]

[BobUp]

83. And if we had more judges like

Isaac Parker, there would be an overall drop in crime. Sure there would, uh hum.

[COLGATE4]

84. Ah, Detroit.

Like the story of two passengers on a really bumpy flight from O'Hare to Detroit. One man was visibly nervous, clutching the seat the whole way, while his companion was as cool as a cucumber. Finally, the nervous passenger asked the calm one what he did for a living that made him so calm: "I'm the tail gunner on a Detroit beer truck". Seems to fit this post, somehow...