(Norway) 'Scrap sex purchase law,' youth leaders demand

[The Straight Story]

'Scrap sex purchase law,' youth leaders demand

The leader of three of Norway's youth parties have called for a law criminalising the buying of sex to be scrapped, arguing it has made life more dangerous for prostitutes since it was introduced four years ago.


"This act has done more harm than good, and led to an unsafe daily life for prostitutes," Paul Joakim Sandøysundet, the leader of the Conservative Party youth wing, told the Vårt Land newspaper.

"The law isn't working the way it is today," Atle Simonsen, acting spokesman for the Progress Party youth added. "It is only leading to a hidden market."

Norway brought in the sex purchase law in 2009, following the Swedish model brought in in 1999, under which it is illegal to buy sex, but not illegal to sell it.

http://www.thelocal.no/20140108/norway-youth-parties-call-for-end-to-sex-purchase-ban

[bluestate10]

1. De-criminalize commercial sex for sellers and buyers as long as the sellers are selling willingly.

Governments should focus on routing people that are forcing females and males to sell their bodies against their will. The puritanical bullshit that is happening now is just increasing abuses.

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. Yes. Decriminalize both partners in commercial sex transactions among consenting adults.

[LanternWaste]

4. Would that apply also to loansharking and payday loan establishments

"transactions among consenting adults."

Would that apply also to loansharking and payday loan establishments, or is the application to be inconsistent?

[dipsydoodle]

5. Should do

based on the fact that both loansharking and payday loans will fuck you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. OK I just spit my tea...

[loli phabay]

12. rofl. now thats funny

[geek tragedy]

18. no, Ayn Rand was only right when it comes to men's boners

See: the man's guide to selective Progressivism and Libertarianism

[LadyHawkAZ]

31. Funny how when we suggest regulating a business as a business

that Libertarian label gets thrown around.

I was under the impression Libertarians were against regulating business but all for regulating vaginas. Sounds more like... someone else's stance.

[geek tragedy]

33. Pimping isn't a business.

If people believe the consenting adults crapola, then regulation would also be out.

Decriminalize it for the women, stick it to the johns.

Give the pro- pimps/johns crowd their way, and the Roger Ailes "suck my dick for cash" clause would be considered legal.

This male supremacist nstitution exists for the benefit of men with disposable income who want to use women's bodies as masturbatory aids. Just so people understand what they want society to teach children is okay--to teach little boys that when they grow up, they can just save up some money and they won't have to bother treating women like human beings.

[LadyHawkAZ]

34. Adults consent to a lot of jobs, which are still regulated as a business

Criminalization leads, always, to more unsafe and violent conditions (and if the experiment in Sweden and Norway are to be believed, increased trafficking too). It's all about what you want to accomplish- increased worker safety and less violence, or an unregulated free for all with dead workers so that the yucky bonerz can be jailed.

Privatized jails, one presumes.

[geek tragedy]

35. The Netherlands would love to have Sweden's 'problems' with trafficking.

Amsterdam is a huge destination for young, exploited women and girls from Eastern Europe. The reason ain't pot or tulips.

They're having big time remorse over their mistake with their gift to the johns. Turns out when you boost demand, it increases trafficking and all the other miseries that accompany this kind of exploitation.

Conceptually, you can't claim that sex=work and then support US laws against sexual harassment in the workplace.

Bonerz are just fine so long as they're not indulged by misogyny.

[LadyHawkAZ]

36. Heh, Sweden would love to have New Zealand's

ain't gonna happen though. Turns out when you push the trade underground, it gets more violent and traffickers get harder to catch, who'da thought it? But take heart! at least they're punishing bonerz! Never mind the worker's safety!

It's nice to see your explanation of Sweden's increased trafficking though- oh, you weren't talking about Sweden? 'My bad.

No still means no, even for female prostitutes. There is no more conflict between sex work and harassment laws than there is between strippers and harassment laws, or Hooters girls, or nude models, or anything else- if you can get the government to enforce them, of course. There's only a conflict to a person with the mindset of "good" and "bad" types of women, who thinks that women who choose sexual expression deserve any on-the-job abuse they get. (I note you have still not processed the idea of male sex workers)

How very heteronormative of you. Bonerz are fine as long as both parties are consenting.

[geek tragedy]

37. There's no legit evidence of this rise in trafficking of human beings into Sweden.

The Netherlands, on the other hand, has indisputably seen an increase in trafficking, along with organized crime, pimping, etc, since their pro-johns act passed.

Yeah, no sexual harassment goes on at Hooters.

[LadyHawkAZ]

38. I have no doubt that there's sexual harassment at Hooters.

And it's against the law, although getting it prosecuted these days is a joke. However, that wasn't what you said: you said there was a conflict between sex work and laws against sexual harassment, which is a different thing from saying "it happens". Like so many things, it hinges on the notion of consent- something you've already stated that you don't believe exists with female sex workers.

You're still part of the problem.

[geek tragedy]

40. If sex is a mere commodity to be bought and sold,

then under that logic sexual harassment would be merely an offer to amend an employment contract.

Offering a woman employee at a restaurant $500/month for fellatio would be akin to offering overtime for working an extra shift.


The less that prostitution happens, the better.

Sex is not work, it is not labor, it is the renting of a human body.

I am all for regulating the wallets of the exploiters, not the bodies of the exploited.

And, the men who are part of the problem are the pigs who want to pay for the right to ejaculate into a human being without treating that person as a human being. The fewer of them that exist, the better off everyone will be.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Except lending money itself isn't illegal, it's legal and regulated.

And abuses occur far more frequently in the absent of a transparent legal regulatory framework, i.e. the black market.

[Glassunion]

8. nobody has any business sticking their nose in

If you do... Well... You're probably doing it wrong.

[Aerows]

10. Depends on what kind you are having :D n/t

[Glassunion]

11. True.

[Aerows]

15. "Honey, when I said I wanted to savor your scent

I didn't mean I wanted to look in the laundry basket!"

[redqueen]

7. LOL, so say two dudes from right wing parties,

and some unknown person from a centrist party.

While the actual prostitute's quotes are left out entirely.

typical

[geek tragedy]

9. "let us buy women" say two rightwing asshole men

Because, when it comes to women's well-being, young conservative asshole men are the people I listen to.

Progress party:

The party is strongly individualistic, wanting to reduce the power of the state and the public sector. It believes that the public sector should only be there to secure a minimum standard of living, and that individuals, businesses and organisations should take care of various tasks instead of the public sector, in most cases. The party also generally advocates the lowering of taxes, various duties, as well increased market economy.[15]

The party also notably want to invest more of Norway's oil wealth in infrastructure (particularly roads, broadband capacity, hospitals, schools and nursing homes) and the welfare state.[16][107] This position, that has used a sense of a welfare crisis to support demands to spend more of the oil fund now rather than later, is part of its electoral success.[69]

The party wants to strongly reduce taxation in Norway, and says that the money Norwegians earn, is theirs to be kept. They want to remove inheritance tax and property tax.[16]

Society[edit]In schools, the party wants to improve the working environment for teachers and students by focusing more on order, discipline and class management. The party wants more individual adaptation, to implement grades in basic subjects from fifth grade, open more private schools and decrease the amount of theory in vocational educations.[108]

The party regards the family to be a natural, necessary and basic element in a free society. It regards the family to be a carrier of traditions and culture, and to have a role in raising and caring for children. The party also wants all children to have a right of visitation and care from both parents, and to secure everyones right to know who their biological parents are.[109] The party opposed the legalization of same-sex marriage in 2008,[110][111][112] questioning how children would "cope" with the law.[113] During the national convention in May 2013, the party voted in favor of both same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption.[114][115][116] The party has for several years been a proponent for legalizing blood donation for homosexuals [117][118]

The party believes that artists should be less dependent on public support, and instead be more dependent on making a living on what they create. The party believes that regular people should rather decide what good culture is, and demands that artists on public support should offer something the audience wants. It also wants to abolish the annual fee for the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation and privatise the company. Otherwise, the party wants to protect and secure Norwegian cultural heritage.[119]

Conservative party:

Høyre is considered a reform party profess to the moderately conservative political tradition, adhering to the thoughts of Edmund Burke. The party is committed to fiscal free market policies, including tax cuts and relatively little government involvement in the economy. It does, however, support the continued existence of the Norwegian welfare state.

Høyre is also the only party in the Storting which proposes a reduction in public spending. The party is often associated with wealth and has historically been attacked by the left for defending the country's richest, though this argument is rarely presented any more. The Conservative Party's social policies are quite liberal: the party voted in 2008 for a law that recognised same-sex marriage and gay adoption rights.[11]

Oh wait, that's the "bonerz uber alles" crowd.

Who predictably talk like Ayn Rand acolytes when it comes to sexual commerce.

[geek tragedy]

13. For those who may care what the woman quoted had to say (the OP excluded her quote)

Norway's push to end it's sex purchase law comes as Tanja Rahm, a former prostitute from Denmark, is campaigning for Denmark to adopt it.

"If sex clients are not criminalized, it means we are recognizing the right to buy other people. It is the same thing as accepting slavery, and I am against it," Rahm told Aftenposten on Tuesday. "I'm aware of the debate in Norway about reversing the law and I think it would be very sad if this happens."

Rahm's open letter "To those who buy sex", has been published in Aftenposten, Sweden's Expressen newspaper, and Denmark's Avisen newspaper.

"If you think I ever felt any desire for you, then you are terribly mistaken," Rahm wrote. "I never once went merrily at work. All I was concerned for was to make quick money. I confused that with easy money, but it wasn't easy. It was fast though, because I quickly learned the many tricks to get you to come as soon as possible."

[OmahaBlueDog]

14. The problem is not the "selling of sex", but human trafficking

If all parties were consenting and no coercion was present on the seller, then I agree, the law is bad. However, it is my understanding that Sweden takes the same legal approach because threatening the buyers makes taking advantage of trafficked Eastern European women less attractive.

[geek tragedy]

16. the idea is demand reduction.

men's eagerness to buy women is rooted in male supremacy, and manifests itself thusly as various forms of exploitation. Sex trafficking is one of those manifestations.

[davidn3600]

19. Somewhat

I always think it rooted in social pressures. Men are pressured to have sex at even early ages and as much as possible. If a man goes into his 20s and is still a virgin, he'll be mocked by his peers and society will wonder what must be wrong with him. A man that has a lot of sex with a lot of women is championed and celebrated. Women on the other hand are pressured not to have sex. If they do, they get "slut-shammed" for it.
It creates a sort of predator-prey environment because of the pressures on each side. So I think that's where it all manifests from originally is those patriarchal stereotypes.

But that being said, I dont really see fully consenting adults having sex for money as exploitative. And really, the government shouldnt be paying so much attention to those cases. They need to devote the resources to the illegal sex trade where there is no consent and where there is serious safety considerations. This is why in places where legal brothels are allowed and regulated, the sex trade and STD levels decrease quite significantly. Because those legal brothels are removing demand from the street which starves the pimps.

[geek tragedy]

20. actually, legalization doesn't reduce the sex trade and trafficking.

It went up in Germany and the Netherlands.

the reason is that demand increases disproportionately to the number of women truly consenting to sell sex

moreover, the more buyers, the more pimps etc willing to cut corners to make a buck.

do johns really care if the woman they're buying is trafficked or not?

if there's been a case of a trafficking ring being exposed because a john suspected trafficking, it has never been disclosed

to put a finer point on it:

absent demand reduction, there will ALWAYS be more men willing to pay for sex than there will be women willing to sell it, particularly in developed economies where women receive education and enjoy meaningful choices in their careers.

[Upton]

22. Demand reduction?

Sounds suspiciously like War on Drugs talk to me. There already are laws against human trafficking. Focus on enforcing those and leave consenting adults alone...

[geek tragedy]

23. Women aren't a product to be snorted, so not like the war on drugs

Generally, Sweden is known for having a more advanced view of gender equality and sexual liberation than the men's rights subreddit et al

just sayin'

[Upton]

24. It's the same in the sense that demand is always going to be there.

and no amount of feel good laws are going to change that fact..

[geek tragedy]

25. Any noxious behavior will exist but deterrence

and education can reduce its frequency.

Teach boys to respect women and punish the men who try to buy them--that will reduce the demand.

[davidn3600]

26. That's been tried, it doesnt work

It's like trying to fight the war on drugs by putting pot-smokers in prison.

I'm sorry, but that strategy to law enforcement just simply does not work. The more you try to crack down on demand, the further underground you will push the sex trade.

We've got the largest prison population, by far, in the entire world. We need to stop looking to prison to solve all our social problems. When your recidivism rate is over 60%, prison isn't solving anything. Period.

[geek tragedy]

27. Nonsense. Demand is low as it is because

men face consequences for doing it.

[davidn3600]

28. Low as it is? You think it's low?

You have no idea....

Prostitution is occurring at every street corner in America.

[geek tragedy]

29. Only about 1% of men in the US solicit prostitutes in any given year

Only 14-15% have in their lifetimes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/prostitution-johns-study_n_2973116.html

Are they really, though? Fear mongering headlines aside, just how frequently do men buy sex -- and which men when and where? According to a new study, published in March 2013 in the International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology (IJO), 14 percent of American men have solicited prostitutes in their life, with only one percent of these men soliciting prostitutes in 2010.

"Our findings clearly contradict the 'john next door' notion perpetuated by some media," Dr. Christine Milrod, who co-authored the study with Dr. Martin A. Monto, said in a press release. The researchers obtained their results by compiling data from the General Social Survey (GSS), public domain data on arrested customers and an Internet sexual services provider called The Erotic Review.

[davidn3600]

30. I can tell you those numbers are false

And none of these people that engage in this stuff are scared of the cops.

It's obvious we are not going to agree on this. It is what it is. I don't believe attacking demand solves any problems. And I don't think it's any of the government's business what two consenting adults do with their time in the bedroom. I don't know why that bothers you so much.

There are too many other problems in this country to worry about than to throw people in jail for having consensual sex. Our justice system is overloaded as it is.

[Major Nikon]

32. So is other types of labor trafficking

The idea that prostitution laws had anything to do with it is not all that great.

Sweden's trafficking is unchanged or up (it was never a big problem to begin with). The level of prostitution in Sweden is also unchanged, but is now farther underground where sex workers face more problems (like trafficking). There is less street prostitution, but this is a world wide trend and there's no reason to believe Sweden's prostitution law had anything to do with it.

[loli phabay]

17. yup legalise and legislate and regulate.

people are going to sell sex and buy sex regardless.

[LittleBlue]

21. It's done absolutely nothing, which is why sex workers want legalization+regulation

as it is the only sensible way to proceed.