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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow people in Muslim countries prefer women to dress in public - Pew
Interesting attitudes in different countries with similar cultures.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/08/what-is-appropriate-attire-for-women-in-muslim-countries/
An important issue in the Muslim world is how women should dress in public. A recent survey from the University of Michigans Institute for Social Research conducted in seven Muslim-majority countries (Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey), finds that most people prefer that a woman completely cover her hair, but not necessarily her face. Only in Turkey and Lebanon do more than one-in-four think it is appropriate for a woman to not cover her head at all in public.
The survey treated the question of womens dress as a visual preference. Each respondent was given a card depicting six styles of womens headdress and asked to choose the woman most appropriately outfitted for a public place. Although no labels were included on the card, the styles ranged from a fully-hooded burqa (woman #1) and niqab (#2) to the less conservative hijab (women #4 and #5). There was also the option of a woman wearing no head covering of any type.
Overall, most respondents say woman #4, whose hair and ears are completely covered by a white hijab, is the most appropriately dressed for public. This includes 57% in Tunisia, 52% in Egypt, 46% in Turkey and 44% in Iraq. In Iraq and Egypt, woman #3, whose hair and ears are covered by a more conservative black hijab, is the second most popular choice.
In Pakistan, there is an even split (31% vs. 32%) between woman #3 and woman #2, who is wearing a niqab that exposes only her eyes, while nearly a quarter (24%) choose woman #4. In Saudi Arabia, a 63%-majority prefer woman #2, while an additional 11% say that the burqa worn by woman #1 is the most appropriate style of public dress for women.
msongs
(67,395 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)Only in so far as you consider them all to be "those backward countries over there that I don't care to learn anything about."
Turkey, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia have similar cultures?
Only in the same way that the U.S., Japan, and North Korea have similar cultures.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I agree, that was badly worded. The article says "seven Muslim-majority countries" which is very different from "similar culture".
athena
(4,187 posts)So they're all similar in the same way that Turkey, Lebanon, and the U.S. are similar.
Religion is a really broad brush to paint the culture of an entire country. I only see it being used when the country in question is majority-Muslim.
Indonesia and Malasia also have majority-Muslim cultures. Are they also similar culturally to Turkey, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia? Turkey's culture is probably much more similar to Greece's than it is to Saudi Arabia's. Islam does not define an entire culture any more than Christianity does.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Armenia, Bolivia, USA, Burundi, DRC, Greece all have Christian-majority.
I am in agreement with you, they share a religion, or have the same majority religion, but a culture? No.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)Lebanon and Iraq (and part of Saudi Arabia) were under Turkish control at the beginning of the 20th century; Tunisia and Egypt had been, earlier. Those 5 also share the Arabic language, which means there's a lot of commonality in the media and entertainment - look at the success of Al Jazeera, or how you can have programmes like Arab Idol or Arabs' Got Talent (judges: 1 Lebanese, 1 Egpytian, 1 Saudi; presenters: 1 Lebanese, 1 Saudi). And they're physically closer than the group you've suggested.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, I don't consider them to be "backward countries". I'm not passing judgement. In fact the point of posting was to point out that cultures in overwhelmingly Muslim countries have divergent cultures regarding dress. Just as "Christian" cultures have divergent cultures regarding dress, and a host of other things.
As an Anarchist, I don't really care if a woman (or a man, for that matter) chooses to wear a Burqa, a Bikini, or a flapjack....as long as its their choice.
athena
(4,187 posts)That's what I've been trying to point out. Saying that Turkey, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia have similar cultures is like saying China and Japan have similar cultures. It only makes sense if you know almost nothing about the cultures of the countries in question. In that sense, it's pretty offensive to people from those countries. (Try telling a Chinese person that their culture is similar to Japan's, and see whether they'll ever speak to you again.)
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Pew did the surveys based on "Muslim Countries" which share the common culture of Islam.
Do you consider religion non-cultural?
Would you say that Canada and the United States don't share common Christian based culture that celebrates Christmas, have populations that overwhelmingly identify as Christians?
We're not talking about art, music, or cuisine here. We're talking about religious culture.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Do Christian-majority countries such as Armenia, Bolivia, USA, Burundi, DRC, Greece share the same culture?
athena
(4,187 posts)What you wrote was that the countries listed had "similar cultures." Not that they "celebrate Eid and have populations that overwhelmingly identify as Muslims."
I pointed out that it is offensive to boil culture down to religion and to state that all Muslim countries have "similar cultures." I never claimed that religion plays no part in culture.
Finally, I don't know of anyone who would say that art, music, and cuisine are not part of what is meant by "culture." You seem to believe that if a country is Muslim, it has no culture beyond Islam. That's pretty offensive. You can choose to pretend it is not. That doesn't make it any less offensive.
I'm done with this "discussion."
demosincebirth
(12,536 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Otherwise, they could have picked China, Papua New Guinea, and Norway.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)but Muslim-majority countries with different cultures. It is pointing out that Muslim-majority countries have DIFFERENT religious cultures.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Similar doesn't equal "same as".
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Their predominant religion is the same, but that does not make their cultures similar.
What you post in the OP shows their cultures are NOT similar. You say "cultures in overwhelmingly Muslim countries have divergent cultures regarding dress" which also shows the cultures are NOT similar.
They have the same predominant religion but no, the cultures are NOT similar.
Same as DRC and Canada.
ETA, I had to reread again and yup. You are saying "different" is "similar".
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)because you can not see the difference between predominant religion and culture, because you think "divergent" means "similar", I will not. It is an interesting graphic in your OP , but your claim that because 2 countries share a predominant religion, that makes their differences as indicated in the OP graphic "similar", there is little left to say.
Sometimes it is ok to learn, to look at what you wrote and to say "oops, that isn't what I mean" rather than continuing to claim countries with very different cultures have similar cultures due to the predominant religion.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Perhaps because they have similar religious cultures? Are Christian practices in the DRC similar to those in Canada? Are religious practices in Tunisia similar to those in Egypt? Are Islamic practices similar in Tunisia, Egypt, and Iraq>
How about the choices in coverings in all the countries in the survey. If there aren't cultural similarities between the countries in the survey why did Pew choose them. Why no Norwegian ski caps? Why no cowboy hats? Why no berets or sombreros? Could it be, that the people surveyed share a common culture in which such garments are familiar?
Is splitting hairs similar to nit-picking?
What say you?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Not "conducted in seven Muslim-majority countries with similar religious cultures".
They chose those countries because they were Muslim-majority countries. Just like it says in the link you gave. And the words you copy/pasted. Which you seem to have missed.
To show that even if they are Muslim-majority countries, they do not have "similar religious cultures".
You do not understand the difference between a religion and a societal culture. I understand now. It is too bad because that sort of thing is what got Sikhs beaten up and killed after 9/11.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)list don't dress similarly. That's why the "interesting" differences of opinion.
Actually, women in the US, France, and Japan dress more similarly than the women on this list.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)It would be interesting to see Indonesia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Jordan, Kosovo, Niger, Morocco and other Muslim majority countries takes.
LukeFL
(594 posts)a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)What a shitty thing to say.
LukeFL
(594 posts)At the picture one more time
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)I alerted, but clearly four people think your bigotry is cool. Way to go, DU.
We live in a country where women's rights are assaulted daily by our own menfolk, LukeFL, so try not to throw stones at other countries.
And I'm a woman
LukeFL
(594 posts)My own opinion and not to be silenced just because you don't agree with it. I wasn't attacking Muslims as a religion- but clearly there are some facets of it that needs to be questioned.. Especially their treatment toward women In some of the most conservative countries. Atrocities are committed against women in the name of Allah.
I am also a woman.
a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)They're secular FFS. But your broad brushing is bullshit and ridiculous. You knew exactly what you were doing and your opinion sucks.
That's my opinion. I feel sorry for you.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)If you are going to criticize societal expectations of a country or region, best to not use hyperbole.
NCarolinawoman
(2,825 posts)Very important country, I would think.
get the red out
(13,461 posts)Not on the list, neither is Afghanistan.
Howler
(4,225 posts)People said considering they have a young population.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)Howler
(4,225 posts)The majority of the Iranian. Public. Is under 40..... I think.I'm pretty sure they are more progressive then a lot of these other countries .propley closer to Tunisia, Lebanon or Turkey.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Prior to the revolution (35 years ago), " most Iranian women don't cover up in public" was true. Today, not so much
http://www.academia.edu/236875/The_History_and_Evolution_of_the_Hijab_in_Iran
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/08/islamic-fashion-tehran-hijab.html#
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)in the 1970s
today:
Remember, that's city-fashion. The countryside is more conservative (I think, like the two girls on the right in image #2).
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Is this information helpful somehow?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)And of course there is the question of why they might prefer to dress one way over another. If it is completely their choice that's one thing, on the other hand if it's "I prefer to dress this way because I am worried I might have troubles if I dressed another way," that's something else.
Bryant
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is that something we should ignore because it is taking place abroad?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Yeah, that so naturally follows from what I said.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And I would venture to suggest that if women are being attacked in the street for violating some clerical-imposed dress code, this is not an issue that anyone who is not a Muslim woman should simply wash their hands of.
(Moscow) - Chechen authorities are enforcing a compulsory Islamic dress code for women and condoning violent attacks on women deemed to dress immodestly, Human Rights Watch said in a report issued today. Russia's federal government has done almost nothing to respond to these violations of women's rights in Chechnya.
The 40-page report, "You Dress According to Their Rules: Enforcement of an Islamic Dress Code for Women in Chechnya," documents acts of violence, harassment, and threats against women in Chechnya to intimidate them into wearing a headscarf or dressing more "modestly," in long skirts and sleeves to cover their limbs. The documented attacks by unidentified men believed to be law enforcement officials took place from June through September 2010 in the center of Grozny, the Chechen capital.
"These attacks against women are outrageous, and the alleged involvement of law enforcement officials is of special concern," said Tanya Lokshina, Russia researcher at Human Rights Watch. "The Kremlin should publicly and unambiguously make clear, in particular to the Chechen authorities, that Chechen women, like all Russians, are free to dress as they choose."
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/10/russia-chechnya-enforcing-islamic-dress-code
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And nowhere did she say that people should wash their hands of mistreatment of women. She pointed out something about the poll that every DUer should agree with (that it's up to women to decide how they dress), yet you've come along, started to go on about something she didn't say...
Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #45)
redqueen This message was self-deleted by its author.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"Demographic information, including results by gender, were not included in the public release of this survey."
It would be interesting and illuminating to see how the attitudes of men and women differed in those countries.
As to whether it's helpful, well, it does provide information about public opinion on the issue there. I think that would be helpful. I think, with some caveats, that public opinion polling in general is pretty useful. And sometimes enlightening.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)I would think bikinis would win.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Virtually no republican is going to describe Islamic dress as appropriate.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Also, is 3 being modelled by Terry Jones from Monty Python's Life of Brian?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)In #4, the wearer is obsessively trying to hide every single hair on her head. In #5, she isn't so concerned.
In other words, #5 is more traditional, whereas #4 is more fundamentalist -- at least in Turkey. #4 became popular there in the 1990s, I believe.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)The question that was posed was not what they thought was appropriate, but what they preferred. Big difference. Over half (55%) of the respondents were women. I would like to see just the results of the women and what they prefer to wear. That is all that should count.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Exactly. They asked what looks most visually pleasing.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)The wind in my hair, the caress of the sun on my skin, skinny dipping on a hot day, dancing in shorts and a tank top in warm summer rain...and I don't give a rat's ass about culture, those women are seriously missing out.
I understand that's the culture they were born into, but still, to be sensually deprived like that...seems so awful.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The sensual pleasure of long hair on my shoulders and neck...You said it well. I've revelled in my body freedom. I can't imagine growing up so confined (and even ashamed to be so free? )
Zorra
(27,670 posts)After I posted the post you responded to, put on a slinky, skimpy nightgown, and danced in my kitchen while I fixed dinner. I think thinking about those poor women in the Middle East made me feel restricted in my clothing, and realize that I take my body freedom for granted. And, because I can.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)screwww THAT!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)But I think it sucks that such tiny minorities in most of those countries believe uncovered women are okay.
Demonstrates to me how deep the cultural conditioning has to be that even the women don't see the double standards in their societies. Their hair and/or face is troublesome to men and has to be disappeared but not mens.
Illustrates the patriarchy and inherent misogyny of the society imho.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2014, 02:49 AM - Edit history (2)
prefer the white head covering?
???
It doesn't make sense to me also because in Tunisia most women don't dress anything like that.
Women's clothing is much more diverse than that of men. In the towns, the vast majority of young women have adopted the European style but women of a certain age, even in urban areas, often wrap a sefseri, white veil of silk or fine wool that covers the head with a blouse and baggy pants.[71]
These figures of women wearing sefseri is engrained in the traditional culture of Tunisia as much as the blue and white houses of Sidi Bou Said:
In rural areas, women still wear brightly colored dresses, often in the Berber style and made of blue or red cotton, representing their region or their village...it is common to see women with tens, even hundreds of gold sovereigns, necklaces and other trimmings around their necks and from the sides of the headdress.
In other words, most younger urban women wear western clothes, older women tend to wear sefsari, & rural (tribal) women wear their group's clothes.
I wonder who they polled.
I think a lot of westerners would say "ugh" to the sefsari but find the tribal costume charming & ethnic. But both sefsari and the tribal ornamentation have the same roots in the Middle Eastern commonality of head covering for women, going back to Biblical times -- which is the root of similar head coverings for women in European culture up to the modern age.
As do nun's habits and wedding veils.
All branches from the same tree.
KG
(28,751 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)Yes.
I wonder what the analogous poll on menswear would show?