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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow has use of the term "white privilege" harmed you?
1) did it stop you from getting a job?
2) did it stop you from renting a house or apartment?
3) did it cause you to be paid lower wages than a non-white person?
4) was it a key factor that made it more difficult for you to exercise your right to vote?
Because this term is said to be so very harmful, we should discuss the types of harm we are avoiding when we agree to no longer say that in general, for people of the same class or status, being nonwhite is a bigger barrier to advancing in society than being white.
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Response to CreekDog (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it doesn't exist. no one else has that luxury
athena
(4,187 posts)If you happen to be black, you can't choose to pretend it doesn't exist. It will be sure to remind you the next time you're stopped by a cop for the crime of walking down the street or driving while black.
athena
(4,187 posts)Oh, the horror of being reminded over and over again that I have benefited from unearned privileges as a result of having been born white!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)how will you survive it?
Response to athena (Reply #4)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
RC
(25,592 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)Because, as we all know, racism and sexism are long dead, and now the group that really suffers from discrimination is white men! Look how few white men are in government these days; all the positions of power are occupied by black women. All that a white man needs to lose his job and end up in jail is for someone to point out that he has benefited from white-male privilege. Oh, wait. Never mind.
Response to athena (Reply #76)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Nope, shatters the illusion.
Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #296)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)uhh oh... I just cited Caddyshack. I'm never going to shake the racist hetero-patriarchy label now.
Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #319)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
enigmatic
(15,021 posts)that Murray mentioned that Carl Spackler's voice had it's genesis in Murray's Hunter Thompson role.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Asian male
Hispanic female
White male
Two white females
We all get paid the same.
My impression is that the useless "white privilege" meme comes straight out of the academy, stripped of all its original, harder political content, to whit:
The white-skin privilege for the mass is
the trustee’s privilege, not release from jail, merely freedom of movement
within it and a diet more nearly adequate. It is not that the ordinary white
worker gets more than he must have to support himself and his family, but
that the black worker gets less than the white worker. The result is that by
thus inducing, reinforcing and perpetuating racist attitudes on the part of
the white workers, the present-day power-masters get the political support
of the rank-and-file of the white workers in critical situations, and without
having to share with them their super profits in the slightest measure, as
contrasted to the case of the “aristocracy of labor.”
http://www.sds-1960s.org/WhiteBlindspot.pdf
The modern usage renders the role of power essentially invisible. I assume that's intended.
I ask, if I buy into your formulation of "white privilege," what changes? Will stop & frisk laws end? Will the privatization of prisons & the school to prison pipeline end? How about loser mortgages?
The answer is always no answer, or something like "You'll be more aware".
This is empty BS.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)go to minimum wage jobs across the country and on average, like your situation, minorities are overrepresented, compared to their actual numbers, than in higher paying jobs --unlike whites on average.
thanks for bringing this up, you make a good point that even in lower paid jobs, whites have statistical advantages.
this is not to say whites making minimum wage have it easy, in fact many live in horrible poverty and that's why I advocate policies and programs that will end the effects of poverty for all people.
but as bad as it is for whites making minimum wage, the greater number of minorities in such jobs than their numbers in the population at large means that the chances of nonwhites escaping poverty or these minimum wage jobs for something better is even worse for them.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)overrepresented in low-wage jobs.
What I said: the next upper-middle-class white person who presumes to lecture me about white privilege can come & do my minimum wage job.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and know what you're talking about.
if you can't get things right, you can not talk about them, or you can ask questions so that you can get things right.
as for your education, i always assumed your education was equal or greater than my own in all the years you've been posting on DU.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Pretty obnoxious.
athena
(4,187 posts)Talking about "white privilege" is the same as talking about racism. It's a reaction to the common belief among many white people that we now live in a post-racial society.
You seem to be saying that white and black people are equally harmed by the capitalist power structure. If so, I disagree with you. It would be delusional to claim that white people are not overwhelmingly better off than black people in this society. There are statistical fluctuations, in that a small number of black people may be better off than a small number of white people. But overall, non-white people are at a huge disadvantage. If you don't see this, I suggest you read The New Jim Crow.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)
cinnabonbon
(860 posts)how no one has answered the questions. I think we both know why. 
Kicked and recced, just because it deserves it.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)You never seem to understand do you.
Your main premise is that white privilege exists. White males don't understand this. That misunderstanding causes white males to take advantage in situations such as hiring.
First yes white privilege exists
Second white males are quite aware it exists from experience, observation, and through understanding the reason for equal opportunity laws.
Third privilege is given to someone from someone. The receiver is in no way lacking because privilege was given to him.
Fourth the potential use of privilege for good as well as bad exists.
Fifth the persistent posting of this bogus privilege bull shit is what is hurting this board
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)but many white people here are complaining about it so it must be as horrible as actual racial discrimination.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because it exists; but we/you don't need to be reminded of it because your acknowledgement of it makes everything okay. Right?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Do you believe that the fact that George W. Bush was born privileged is bogus?
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)The premise that we need to be educated about privilege is bogus
I think at times folks are so caught up in some paradigm they can't see the world around them.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)Why do you feel it is "bogus" to talk about how certain people benefit from systems of oppression?
ProfessorGAC
(64,852 posts)That should be pretty obvious. Rich and white carries far more privilege than merely the benefit of being born white.
GAC
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)to see if the poster understood privilege...
ProfessorGAC
(64,852 posts)Just wanted to be sure we weren't thinking that Li'l Georgie only got his breaks in life because he was white. To be this incompetent at everything and still fail up that consistently has to be more than race.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and that is what we are talking about...
JI7
(89,239 posts)would never come close to being president.
ProfessorGAC
(64,852 posts). . .the chances would be better. Not as good as Li'l Georgie's but better than the same black kid from Camden.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,852 posts)15 hours late, i was never arguing the basic point. I'm a white guy. I'm not deluded about how things work, especially in the 60's and 70's when i matured. (Well, sort of.)
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I never said he was representative did I?
mike_c
(36,269 posts)Those are some excellent questions, there. 
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Let's start with the basic assumptions in the post, namely that 'white privilege' means 'for people in the same class or status'. It doesn't, and that's my biggest problem with it.
Now that we've separated the generic term from the qualifier that you had to use -- my whole problem with the term in the first place -- the rest is easy to figure out. When people use the phrase without understanding or speaking about other intersectionalities and/or qualifiers that might make a useful conversation, all they succeed in doing is alienating people who would otherwise vote for them. When those people go on to elect Republicans because a group of people are so addicted to a term that barely has usage in academia where it originated let alone in the real world, and those Republicans directly screw over the entirety of a state (Hi, 50% of the nation denied Medicare expansion by Republican governors and still bound by the -rest- of the ACA whether they can afford it or not!), then yah...the term -has- directly harmed people, and its not just white people its harmed. Useful with intersections and qualifiers, harmful as a broadbrush stroke...just like most stereotypes.
Nothing has -ever- been won by pointing to groups and talking about how bad they are as a group. Things get changed when people are individually brought to change their views. Now, occasionally some group dynamics can assist with that, its true. But the larger the brush, the less likely it is to happen -- thats why intersections are so important both to the conversation, and to making sure that the people we're conversing with can relate to what we are sharing with them.
But really I don't see why this is such a horrible opinion. Maybe I'm not in on the right agenda.
Edit: Wow. No responses when I started typing this up, and suddenly a whole bunch of backpatting. Congratulations, I guess.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)with him about Minimum wage for example?
Shandris
(3,447 posts)What -is- it with people trying to say I said things I didn't say? Holy Christ.
You're naming a specific person. That isn't 'white privilege' that's 'GWB's privilege'. I mean really, how is this hard to grasp?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)denial is not a river in Egypt.
Privilege is privilege....no one is following your White ass around a store in case you might "shoplift" are they? That's privilege.....you and I don't suffer that.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Neither is it useful to talk about when you don't know what the FUCK you're talking about. Do I get followed around stores? You're goddamn right I do. Do you know why? No, you don't. The only thing you -think- you know is that I'm white, and somehow that makes me immune to being followed around stores.
Unbelievable.
Do me a favor. Don't waste your time with cute little platitudes as if you know the first thing about me. I doubt that you'd get more than 2 right out of an entire -list- of intersections. Thanks.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)because you have trouble communicating what you are truly saying is not something I can do anything about. Being obtuse doesn't help your cause.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)It's probably good I can't communicate that sentiment well. Darn my obtuse-ness.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I am ALSO a woman....so I understand the Male privilege...so its very easy for me to extrapolate that to understand White Male privilege...
Shandris
(3,447 posts)When men tell us (yes, us...your assumption couldn't be further from the truth) that they understand our privileges (and while we have far fewer of them, we do have some), we laugh at the thought and tell them that they can't understand us because they aren't women. When a black person tells us of racial struggles, we listen to them because we aren't black, and their experience is something we can't fully know.
But when a man speaks, you know exactly what he's talking about? I sure as hell don't. Seems...off, somehow. 
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)please elaborate on this....
what a car door opening?
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Besides, I'll not stand in line to hear you start going on about how I worship the patriarchy or some nonesuch. You have enough trouble understanding basic English as typed by me as it is; I can't see my starting a new conversation with you to be useful to anyone except shareholders in Tylenol.
But if you think we have absolutely no privilege...well, how did you put it? 'Denial isn't just a river in Egypt'?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I want to know WHAT my "woman" privilege is please...."please continue..."
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)for a long time in Australia, the aged pension was available to women when they turned 60, and to men when they turned 65. Today the gap has been narrowed, women are entitled to the pension at 64.5 years of age and men at 65.
Upwards of 75% of those who receive below-subsistence welfare entitlements in Australia are men, although typically this is because women are care of children.
About 80% of rough sleepers are men, and there is a general priority in favour of women for shelters and crisis and public housing, although again this is largely because women are in care of children.
About 80% of those killed in workplace-related accidents in men.
My personal impression is that while there is certainly a glass ceiling - in that many people are uncomfortable with women in positions of authority - there appears to be something of a "glass floor" as well, in that society is less comfortable seeing extreme deprivation foisted upon women than it is with men.
Typically, missing people's photos that appear on milk cartons are those of white women, presumably because the plight of women evokes sympathy to a greater extent than men.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)not to mention those are not privileges....
so NOT!
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Certainly nothing low-rent about this debate. No sirree.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)let's hear your "high rent" response then....
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)what did your parents do...
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)her cause is OUR cause.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Raine1967
(11,589 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)funny...last I checked I was.....
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)Actually, you really, really did.
I'm not looking to fight with you. That said, this ain't funny.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Nothing has -ever- been won by pointing to groups and talking about how bad they are as a group.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)hahahaha
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)It should be a term that progressives are familiar with and can use properly.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)do Males have privilege in this country?
Shandris
(3,447 posts)So do we. We have far fewer, but we're not exempt from them.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its exactly the same.....
Shandris
(3,447 posts)You're not. I'm explaining why concept -without qualifiers- is useless. How many times should I need to point out that one little part -- WITHOUT QUALIFIERS -- before someone notices it?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)...
...
...
...I literally do not know how someone can read my posts and say that I have denied its existence. Every time I post on the topic, I mention how it must be viewed along with other intersectionalities. How it is useless as a broad-brush conversation starter. How small packages of privilege cannot be the only discussion on the matter. My posts in this thread said the exact same thing. My posts in -other- threads said the same thing. And somehow I deny its existence. 
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)WTF?
I guess its small potatoes if you are White huh?
Shandris
(3,447 posts)I don't want to believe that you can so -grossly- misunderstand what I'm talking about.
Small packages is groups of privilege intersections where you leave out most of the ones you (generic, although in this case it would be instructional to use the specific as well) benefit from. So, for example, a typical 'small package' (and the word small denotes the numerical -- as in, 'few numbers') is 'white male' or 'PoC female'. It's a numerically small (2 each) intersection of packages.
It leaves out vast numbers of other intersections, including social class, education, cis/heteronormativity, able-ism, family structure, religion, and so forth. It's a 'small package' of the full set.
I DO hope that's clear enough.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)'K.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its NOT numerically small....
and besides no matter HOW small...it still exists!
I am SURE George W Bush thinks his privilege is just "small package" privilege too!
Shandris
(3,447 posts)No, I'm finished with this. I've tried, and tried fairly, and that's all I'm obligated to do. Have a nice evening, VR.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)You can deny all you want....it still exists....you as a White (male I assume) do not get to decide what that "numeric" is.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Or at least not in a degree sufficient to completely and clearly offset the effects of female privilege.
I REALLY wish that these legitimate and useful discussions of race privilege in this country would stop being derailed by illegitimate and useless discussions of gender privilege. Unfortunately, that is clearly and obviously their purpose. EVERY SINGLE TIME the usual suspects post about white privilege, it is intended and used as an opportunity to jawbone men about male privilege.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Bwhahahahahaha....Oh please....
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)For starters, take all the metrics that people understandably use to measure white privilege and apply gender to them.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Okay folks ^^^^ THIS is WHY we have to go on and on lecturing about it...EVEN on Democratic Underground.
We found the reason right here...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)WITHOUT FAIL those who post on the topic are only doing so as a head fake to segue into a discussion of their own oppression. I find it dishonest and shameful, frankly. Particularly when they, personally, are privileged in all the measures they use to show white privilege.
Let's make some ground rules. If you live shorter lives, suffer greater incarceration, have poorer health outcomes, are given harsher sentences for the same crime, are comparatively poorly educated, suffer greater (and longer) unemployment, are more likely to suffer workplace injury and crime victimization such as people of color (and men) do,... you're disadvantaged.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I think that women and men have privileges.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)this female says Bullhockey!
Easy for you to say sitting in the proverbial "catbird seat".
I am still waiting to hear about all these female "privileges" I have...please proceed!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Many are the reasons for your longer life, none of which constitute disadvantages.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)they don't know what causes that....could be men themselves...then it wouldn't be my privilege would it?
Please proceed!
If you want to go that route...Life expectancy for Black men....leaves many NEVER getting their Social Security...
Is that more White Privilege?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
The fact that men are 92% of workplace fatalities.
The fact that men have lifetime medical expenditures about 1/3 less than women, despite the fact that we die younger of 14 of the top 15 diseases.
The fact that men are less well educated by women dominated schools, requiring us to take more hazardous and unhealthy work.
The fact that the stresses associated with being a man makes them 5x as likely to commit suicide.
The fact that men far more likely to be victims of violent crime.
The fact that men are 11 times as likely to be incarcerated and are given worse sentences than women for the same crime.
What's the other side? The pay gap after accounting for differing choices might be as much as 7%. Maybe.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Although the racial gaps in many areas of life are closing slightly in the U.S., research says that there is still a significant gap in black life expectancy compared to that of our white counterparts. In a newly released Health Services Research study conducted by UCLA, blacks continue to live shorter lives than whites in every state in the U.S. on average, as white females live five years longer than black females and white men live seven years longer than black males. - See more at: http://madamenoire.com/147615/study-black-life-expectancy-in-the-u-s-still-significantly-lower-than-whites-why/#sthash.isd1TGwo.dpuf
Hung on your own Pretard!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Are you telling me that male privilege manifests through shorter lives? Seriously?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)is a privilege....and are saying that my "female life expectancy" is my privilege....
Then you just proved that White Male privilege exists solely on JUST the constraints YOU set. You just hung yourself on your own pretard ....because:
Black males expect to live 7 Years less than you...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Which demographic in this image is most likely to be privileged?
Who is least privileged?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)hung on your own pretard!
If the fact that I live longer...is a White Female privilege...(because Black women don't)
then the fact that YOU will live longer than Black men....is White Male privilege!
Your rules...
But do you want to believe there are no OTHER advantages to being a White male?
PULEEEZE!
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)So far all you've done is say you don't have to answer or you've conflated white privilege.
I have yet to see anyone quantify "male privilege" with anything that makes the least bit of sense. If your best answer is it's something we have to assume, then you don't have an answer.
Take a gander at this thread and switch white for female.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024276345
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)that was this part of the discussion..
He tried to say that I as a woman have privilege...
I asked what MINE was....he said it was that I live longer...
therefore hung on his own pretard
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I've given you a wide array of constraints to choose from, (health, violence, unemployment, lifespan, incarceration, etc.) and given the fact that they're used in the context of this racial privilege discussion, you can't claim that they're not legit.
You've replied with one: weekly wages. Since women do most of the spending and control most of the wealth, it begs the question; what is the power of money, earning it or spending it?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Oh really? Control most of the wealth? How many CEO's are women again?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)This is a list of women who currently hold CEO positions at companies that rank on the 2013 Fortune 1000 lists. Women currently hold 4.4 percent of Fortune 500 CEO positions and 4.5 percent of Fortune 1000 CEO positions.
http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-ceos-fortune-1000
"Damn it feels good to be a gangsta..."
doesn't it? Cause being a female I wouldn't know....
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)They, like Ann Romney, prove how oppressed the lower earning spouse is.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)the poor things...
How many of them are ALSO CEO's?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)oh please.....
Me thinks you are just a disgruntled "ex"-husband.
Your experiences do not a trend make..
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Jeff clearly stated that "white privilege" exists. You simply pointed out that this is true which he never disputed in the first place.
You never explained why living longer is not a privilege, just that it was his definition and not yours. I asked you what yours was. You have yet to even define it other than to claim it exists. If it exists, then you should be able to define and quantify it.
yewberry
(6,530 posts)Bing Dictionary
priv·i·lege
[ prívvəlij ]
restricted right or benefit: an advantage, right, or benefit that is not available to everyone
rights and advantages enjoyed by elite: the rights and advantages enjoyed by a relatively small group of people, usually as a result of wealth or social status
special honor: a special treat or honor
Privilege is granted by societal forces, not biological forces. Living longer has nothing to do with institutional systems, and if you think I'm super-psyched about my "privileged" possible time as a widow in an old folks' home eating ramen or cat food after my husband passes away YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR GODDAMNED MIND.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)I think most people would consider dying 5 years earlier a disadvantage whether you do or not. Societal privilege is not on an individual basis.
Societal privilege doesn't always have to do with institutional systems, but living longer most certainly does. For 14 of the 15 leading causes of death, men are disadvantaged. The top two are heart disease and cancer, both of which are treatable in most instances. #3 is respiratory diseases which are treatable. #4 is stroke which is often preventable. #5 is accidents which are preventable. #6 is diabetes which is treatable and often preventable. #10 is suicide and #15 is homicide, both of which are preventable.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)before all those lucky women who have all the advantages over you.
what is it you lack that all these women have?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)or that there is Female privilege..... please enlighten us to what that is then...as the previous poster was discussing with me that you said "bullhockey" to...
apparently you must think it exists so...
please proceed!
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you're a white male with a great place to live, good retirement and so many good things.
and you have the nerve to complain?
about the advantages women have?
go away.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)This thread is supposed to be about the very legitimate phenomenon of white privilege. It has been, as all these discussions inevitably are, derailed into discussions about nonexistent male privilege (as distinct from privileges) by people who would choose to wrap their own agenda with the legitimacy conferred by actual, persistent and chronic racial injustice, of which black MEN bear the brunt.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)how would YOU know?
are you female?
Or do only White people get to decide how disadvantaged Black people are in your world too?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I don't know. The author of the OP hasn't yet answered my question. If he's not a racial minority, then I guess your answer might very well be yes.
You seem to be saying that only women are in a position to recognize the privileges men have, and that only African-americans can understand the privileges whites have.
Aside from being obviously untrue, the dishonesty of your arguments is completely transparent. Nothing that I have said could, within any logical and properly functioning brain be construed to imply that I don't agree that racial privilege exists and is pervasive.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)then how is it that you as a man get to decide if women are? Its very simple....
I am saying...you don't know!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We look at evidence, form our own conclusions and argue on that basis.
There's very strong evidence for pervasive racial privilege. Those same measurements argue strongly AGAINST male privilege.
For instance, I think we'd agree that the fact that blacks are more than twice as likely to be incarcerated as latinos and about six times as likely to be incarcerated as whites, is strong evidence for white privilege.
What then to make of the fact that men are ELEVEN times as likely to be incarcerated as women, and given worse sentences for the same crime? Black men in jail are there mostly because they are men. Race increases the degree to which the deck is stacked against them.
Being female is a strongly protective factor across all racial and class demographics.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)is it a privilege or not to get paid better than everyone else?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Your times are improving.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)that you are ALL wrong?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Damn it feels good to be a Gangsta...huh?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And places like that.
ProgressSaves
(123 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I freely admit it.
ProgressSaves
(123 posts)Class is more of an issue than race here.
Being white has not helped me, but I do not deny the existence of white privilege in other parts of the country.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)if you weren't White in your neighborhood you WOULD realize that does.... just because it is 98% White doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The 2% "Other"....would beg to differ.
ProgressSaves
(123 posts)And they live in the gated communities with the rich, white people.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)There are still "some" that do not enjoy that privilege....no matter how few...
Why do you think some of that 98% live in that "all White" community?
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)Sure.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)that the privileged white folks would beat minorities, or worse, if they caught them there . . . . . . and the law would do nothing about it (the 100% minus a percent or two remained well into the 1970s). It's a little different now (95% white), but not a lot. And the majority definitely feel privileged and entitled to wave a confederate flag in your face at home or work.
White privilege exists here, just like it existed/exists in South Africa.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)privilege people who bought there payed extra for. and it explains a lot about your posts. need to get out more, maybe.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)We know it's helped us so why do we need to be lectured on it over and over here!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)It's what is done with it that matters.
We know it exists. That we don't need to be lectured on. It was the idea behind the civil rights legislation passed in the sixties when I was in high school. It was the basis for affirmative action.
We are well aware it exists so stop the lecture!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)then I guess the lectures will continue....
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Basically they are not going to feel guilty about it existing because they had no choice in the matter.
Like I sad they have a choice what to do about it and to do that you have know it exists.
My question to you. How can someone born a white male not know they have it easier than a minority person ?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)guilty for something they have no control over. But like I keep saying, people want to make it all about their supposed hurt feelings instead of actual substantive issues.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ProgressSaves
(123 posts)I don't deny that white privilege exists. I've seen the statistics. But it's a non-issue in predominately white, economically depressed parts of the country.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)ProgressSaves
(123 posts)Setting aside being looked upon with less suspicion by law enforcement and discriminated against by potential employers.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)setting those aside? THEY ARE the point! AT the minimum...THAT"S privilege that YOU benefit from.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)If you were a person of color, then in all likelihood they would have a significant impact on your life, somewhere down the line. Or if not for you then for relatives or friends of yours.
I know your personal situation probably sucks, as you've indicated here. But "privilege" doesn't automatically mean having it good - all it means is that certain bad things - such as we've discussed - tend not to happen to you, because you're a white person.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)If so, you benefited from white privilege. If you're black, thanks to The New Jim Crow laws, you are much more likely to have at least one parent in jail.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2014, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)
(At least not in a direct sense, as far as I can honestly tell.)
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)have you tried being female or Black?
otherwise how would YOU know whether or not you are "privileged" or not?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)as far as I can honestly and truthfully see, anyway. However, with that in mind, I do acknowledge that the *background* is certainly there. And that there are some individuals who *do* benefit directly from this. But, again, as far as I can be able to gleam (and I say this being *quite* aware of the disadvantages that People of Color face), I haven't ever been one of those who has definitively had a benefit from "white privilege" at least(though that may yet change, I suppose). Am I making a little more sense? 
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Yes it has benefitted you...have you been a victim of racism or misogyny? No? Then you benefited because everyone else HAS!
and by "everyone else" I don't mean all other human beings in the world...
I am talking about groups that you cannot identify as.
Maybe you should change your name to "IndividualJoe" instead of "AverageJoe"?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)There is a major problem with this rather dualistic thinking; it doesn't hold water in reality. While ethnic, gender, etc. disparities do, unfortunately exist, not every Caucasian, or male, or straight, etc. person collectively reaps direct benefits from such.
And, for that matter, not every person in a disadvantaged group will necessarily suffer direct consequences in return; this realization, in turn, does not, at all, disprove that these prejudices do exist in the background and that the risk of suffering such is still universally present for these groups, even if not every individual is themselves directly affected.
Which is why that even though I myself have not, so far, directly benefitted at the expense of other ethnicities, nationalities, etc., as far as I am able to possibly tell, I still realize, and accept, that these problems do exist.
Hopefully this clears things up a bit.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you think you have been victimized by people who talk about racism, homophobia and misogyny.
You want it to acknowledged "black people are racist too". YOU want to claim to be a victim....which quite clearly you are not.
No one has kept you from a job or home because of your color OR your sex. No one has paid you LESS because of your color or your sex...Other people DO deal with these things on a DAILY basis. YOU Don't...
You are not the victim here...
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts).....you think you have been victimized by people who talk about racism, homophobia and misogyny.
I'd like to see some quotes.
YOU want to claim to be a victim....
Never said I was. All I said on that other thread was that, as far as I can tell, I haven't directly benefitted from societal racism.
Other people DO deal with these things on a DAILY basis.
And I never argued against that. Not once.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)are you seriously asking this question?
Answer....regularly!!!!!
Why do you think we even NEEDED the Lily Ledbetter Act?
This is WHY I know....so do Black people...so do Hispanic people....so do Gay people...
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Honestly, I never doubted you on that. In fact, that wasn't what we were originally discussing on this thread. But since you asked.....
Why do you think we even NEEDED the Lily Ledbetter Act?
To get better pay for women of course, which, honestly, was *way* overdue. Signing this bill into law was, IMO, one of the most amazing achievements of Obama's first term. And let's not forget the tireless efforts of Lily Ledbetter herself, whom many of us commend for her bravery & persistence. A true inspiration, indeed.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)
sir pball
(4,737 posts)I've had more than one encounter with the NYPD (all well-deserved on my part, I should add) and the worst, actually the only formal punishment, I've gotten is a $100 ticket. For the exact same crime that I've personally seen four officers hauling a Black man off in cuffs over.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)except some people evidently never have the "a-ha!" moment that others do.
sir pball
(4,737 posts)I mean, I'm not walking around thinking "I'm White, I can do whatever I want ha ha!"...but at the same time I'm notngoing to demand the cops ticket me or cuff me when I can be polite and deferential and walk away. I may be pretty liberal but I'm not stupid.
I had my a-ha moment long before I experienced it firsthand, in terms of realizing there's still deep racial inequality in America...I just never appreciated the privilege of paleness till I got let go freely for that can of beer.
That and the cop was actually a really cool younger guy who obliquely let on that he didn't think the force was handling OWS so well and he was trying to make amends as best as he could. We often forget they are people too.
sir pball
(4,737 posts)I blame you for this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018552810
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I've dealt with various police officers in my time, and some were definitely more laid-back than others.
sir pball
(4,737 posts)It's a $25 mail-in "Administrative Violation". Still cheaper than walking through a bar door..
SaltyBro
(198 posts)Whether they know it or not.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)It happens yes but if you are not aware there is no guilt attached.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)can you be guilty of a law you weren't aware of?
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)proving intent.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you CAN be convicted of a law you didn't know existed...its why they say "ignorance is no excuse under the law".
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts) is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content. In the United States, exceptions to this general rule are found in cases such as Lambert v. California (knowledge of city ordinances) and Cheek v. United States (willfulness requirement in U.S. federal tax crimes).SaltyBro
(198 posts)they are guilty of being ignorant, and that is no excuse.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Whites have an easier go of it, but the benefits are largely invisible to each individual. Should I reject the job offer because it was gained through a personal network of white friends and family?
The goal is to be aware of it and to help mitigate the disadvantage others face.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Thank you for proving my point!
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Acknowledge it? Done!
Then what?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and particularly not complain when complaints are fielded.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Tell me specifically what I can do to ameliorate white privilege. More specific than "more than that.....lots more..."
Honestly, I don't even have any idea how to pay off my student loans. What can I do to combat a pervasive and culture-wide phenomenon?
I'm not kidding about this.
dionysus
(26,467 posts) VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you know since it's been like.......FOREVER!!!!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)what do you expect people to do about it, lecture random people on the street about it? feel guilty?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)there are quite a number of posters who deny what you just said...
You just have to learn to tolerate that OTHER White Males....DO NOT believe their privilege exists...and continue to need to be lectured on this...
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)usage of "white privilege" is to make power invisible & shift the responsibility for societal racism downward to "the masses", just like the tax burden has been shifted downward to the masses.
IMO, the modern usage is -intended- to be divisive and -intended- to render the role of power in creating, structuring and maintaining racism invisible.
And IMO its an economically privileged class who are most enthusiastic about the term; I see it as yet another expression of their class privilege: "We, the enlightened ones, must teach you bubbas".
My workplace is one white male, one Asian male, one Hispanic female and two white females. We're all over 40; we all work for ten cents over minimum wage, and we never talk about who is more "privileged". When we talk about privilege, (without using that word) it's ALWAYS about economics -- and economic power.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)for proof that it doesn't exist...
right yeah...I hear ya..
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)IMO, the modern usage is -intended- to be divisive and -intended- to render the role of power in creating, structuring and maintaining racism invisible.
And IMO its an economically privileged class who are most enthusiastic about the term; I see it as yet another expression of their class privilege: "We, the enlightened ones, must teach you bubbas".
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)THIS however is...
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)As for your chart, it shows Asians make more than whites, while whites make more than blacks & Latinos.
I don't dispute it.
See how you fare telling my male Asian coworker that as a male & an Asian he is privileged. Especially tell him in the mocking tone you use here.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you don't deny the existence...but then turn around and deny the evidence..
its frankly, bizarre.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Why?
As I said, please tell my male Asian coworker that as a male & an Asian he is privileged, particularly in the mocking tone you've used here.
That will win him to your cause, no doubt.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)to improve their lots in life do you not understand?
but you didn't answer mine..
"Are you saying that racism and misogyny in employment no longer exists?"
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)is used to claim "white privilege" but not "Asian privilege".
I've never claimed that racism and misogyny don't exist in employment. I dislike your tactic of throwing up straw men as "argument".
You, though, implicitly claim that Asians having higher income than whites, blacks & Hispanics is not a data point for "Asian privilege", while whites having higher income than blacks & Hispanics (but not Asians) is a significant data point for "white privilege".
Why is one irrelevant and the other significant?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)But MEN beat them all....
are you going to suggest then that there is ONLY male privilege?
Is there or is there not Employment racism and misogyny?...It's a simple question.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)use it.
As I said before, I've never claimed there isn't employment racism & misogyny.
It's a simple question that I answered already.
But you still haven't really answered the question about the chart you've posted multiple times.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)then just what IS your point...
and what the hell is YOUR question? If you don't like the answer...it doesn't mean its not answered OR wrong.
what do YOU need to prove that White people in the United States have it better than OTHER people in the U.S?
Are you going to also say that even being born in the U.S. doesn't come with privilege? You could be born in Darfur instead.
Would you trade your White male life for one of a Black male or Female? NO you wouldn't.
You claim to accept that there IS racism and misogyny...but REFUSE to accept that means that YOU as a White male has it better in this world. THIS means YOU have privilege over all the others! Why can't you accept that? Simply because you are poor? Because one White guy is poor...this means the whole premise of White privelege is wrong?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Or is this a weird backhanded way to say "...but Black people are racist too" "they are racist against me" argument?
Number23
(24,544 posts)K&R
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Being a white woman hasn't hurt my chances for a job, apartment, voting,or anything really.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)is way easier than being a woman of color.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but it seems some White American males are very very much in denial about their privileged state in the entire world...much less just here! Amazing how hard they will fight against it....it just exemplifies how much entrenched they are in clinging to the past and the power...
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I don't know who you hang out with, but I don't know a single white male that howls about their lack of privilege. If you do, I don't know what the fuck it is you expect from me..
I think a lot of this crap gets hugely exaggerated here.
Frankly, I'm quite sick of this "Wahhhh! My owie is bigger than yours!" bullshit.
1000words
(7,051 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts) 
stillcool
(32,626 posts)Forced to face reality.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)and determining ways of fixing that problem.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)without naming effects.
are you sure that makes sense?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)We all (should) know what "white privilege" is by now.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)the criminal justice system.
5) did it cause you to be railroaded into prison?
6) did it ensure that justice could rarely be found in the event that you or a loved one is robbed, raped, or murdered?
Iggo
(47,534 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 9, 2014, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)
zappaman
(20,606 posts)
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)That said it can be emotionally hurtful the first time you are exposed to the concept depending on how you are exposed to it. Or how it is used to explain things. I think the first time I heard it I felt like it was used to explain why I had succeeded, and I rejected it as I felt I had worked hard to achieve my success. Upon reflection I realized that my success was due to a number of factors (including my white maleness), but I might have gotten there quicker if I had come to the subject another way.
Bryant
athena
(4,187 posts)It's painful to admit one was wrong about something. But it gets easier and less painful each time.
In other words, it may have hurt, but are you really sure you could have come to the same realization painlessly?
I speak from personal experience when I say that it's painful to recognize that one has been wrong about something. And I appreciate your openness. I think your post explains why so many men take any discussion of sexism as a personal attack against them, and why so many white people are in denial about the reality of racism and prefer to pretend we now live in a color-blind society.
For a hard-working person to accept that they didn't get where they are on their own can be painful, but in fact, we all benefit in so many ways from the society around us; few people truly do anything on their own. (Even a hermit who lives in a house he built in the woods benefits from the vaccinations and medical care he received as an infant.) When the topic is white or male privilege, the goal is not to make people feel guilty or insulted; it's to make them aware, so that they will do something to change the status quo. Because if you're not aware of the level of discrimination around you, how can you change it?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I assume y'all have all completed at least one Cultural Studies seminar on oppression and now want to try out all your new words.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)I will tell you that I don't often find it useful to use that term when speaking about the concept though. Bear with me.
There is no doubt that "white privilege", as a concept, exists. At least it does in the manner that proponents of the term think it does. The reason I don't care for it much though is because privilege is only privilege insofar as one group enjoys benefits that another does not. It implies that one group is getting something extra, over what everyone else receives. From this angle the logical way to even things out is to remove that privilege. Now it's true, you COULD look at what happens in the real world from that perspective, but I prefer not to.
Instead I am of the opinion that the way white people are treated in general (as opposed to other racial and cultural groups) is how EVERYONE should be treated. I don't want to see that privilege denied them, I want to see it afforded to all. From a linguistic perspective this implies bringing everyone up to the same high level, versus dragging others down to equalize matters. It just feels more morally correct to me to focus on what is denied certain groups, rather than how one group is "privileged" since other groups are sometimes not treated with the same basic human decency.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)OHHH but they are....because if they aren't "equal" then someone is getting less....
Are you saying that a Male isn't getting better treatment than I am as a woman? Are we equal....do males make more money than I do? Seee....its easy.
Same applies for the LGBT community....are they able to marry? Do they believe Civil Unions is the same as Marriage? Do straight couples get something that the Gay couples don't? Oh YES!
That's why its important...If someone is getting "Less" then someone is getting "better".
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Now what is the solution to that? Cut males' pay to female levels or raise females' pay to match males? THAT is the point I was trying to make. Extrapolate that point to LGBT marriage and so forth.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Are straight marriages losing something by the LGBT getting something?
You seem to think females getting less pay is an equal result of male and female employers......the employees don't lose their salaries when the females get equal pay do they?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I've always felt the same way.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)hunter
(38,302 posts)... but my life reeks of white male privilege. I know damned well I'd have been in a much worse place if I was black or Hispanic because I'm not always a gentleman.
It doesn't hurt me at all if someone points out my white male privilege. I know it, and I do what I can to change that aspect of our society. I might even appreciate it when someone tells me I'm being a clueless white male.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Not at all.
redqueen
(115,103 posts) nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts) CFLDem
(2,083 posts)only because the only color my bill collectors care about is green.
And no I don't feel guilty because I refuse play the race game foisted on us by our purported overlords.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Really you think it is a game?
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Sure at its heart it has very real and tragic effects. But it's nothing but another rat race to distract the competition. By acknowledging that race has value, we're just legitimizing the concept.
I refuse to participate.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)You are transparent as glass. Carry on.
Throd
(7,208 posts)I have male privilege.
I have heterosexual privilege.
I have able-bodied privilege
I have tall guy (6'-3" privilege.
I have full head of hair privilege.
I have not-ugly privilege.
I have not-a-dullard privilege.
Now that I have recognized the various privileges I was born with, what am I supposed to do with this knowledge?
athena
(4,187 posts)and do something to change that. For example, donate to or volunteer for an organization that fights for those minorities. That's what I do with my white privilege.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)I can go on. I understand the concept of white privilege, but I ain't feelin' it so much right now.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)they must first buy into the formulation of racial inequities as "white privilege"?
Nah, I don't think so.
athena
(4,187 posts)s/he has benefited from white privilege will donate to or volunteer for an organization that serves the group s/he claims does not suffer from the lack of that privilege?
Sorry, I don't buy it. Claiming that "white privilege" doesn't exist is equivalent to claiming that racism doesn't exist. It's an excellent excuse for white people to do absolutely nothing to fight racism.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)along with all the others, just imagine what he could have achieved.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)helped all that much.....
Honestly, one of the main flaws with the term itself is that it kinda does come across as saying that "whiteness", as if it were somehow above the "norm", as it were, something special. Here in the U.S., however, it's the opposite: "whiteness" is the supposed "norm", as it were(please note the quotation marks), even though many of us are unhappy with it(myself included, btw); rather, it's People of Color(I assume this term is OK by DU standards) who are disadvantaged compared to "white" folks. While I fully realize that the original creators of the term meant this to be an autoantonym of a sort(that is, a word that means the opposite of what it sounds), it has, unfortunately been misunderstood, and even abused by some less scrupulous and/or less learned individuals out there.
So while it has overall, helped stimulate discussion, this particular term has not always been helpful and perhaps *should* be ditched for something that the general public is better able to comprehend.....just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)are we supposed to stop using that term because it comes off saying that "maleness" as if it were somehow the "norm" as it were something special?
Should we just stop talking about Male privilege as a result?
Are you going to tell women that? Good luck is all I can tell ya!
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)and got into a terrible fight with my male privilege and they tore up my living room. It was ugly!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But then my heterosexual privilege stepped in as the voice of reason to defuse the situation.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)At racism, that can be harmful. Not harmful in a manner that would prevent a white person from getting a job or the like. But harmful in destroying dialogue.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)and that is hardly the point.
Let me give you an example
just an example.
Suppose I call somebody a fu$%ing moron.
Are they likely to appreciate me for that? I kinda doubt it.
But now suppose I ask them "How has me calling you a fu$%ing moron, harmed you?"
1. Did it stop you from getting a job?
2. Did it stop you from getting a house or apartment?
3. Did it cause you to be paid a lower wage than a non-white person?
4. Was it a key factor that made it more difficult for you to exercise your right to vote?
And the answer to all of those, is of course, no.
Yet that probably does not make the person who received the insult any more receptive to the insult or to the person delivering the insult.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)not insulting unless the person you're describing it to is a racist.
in which case, why not insult them?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)is one thing, and NOT insulting.
Calling whites privileged is another thing, and IS insulting.
It's pretty simple, if you want more white allies in a struggle against racism, then it is not a good idea to insult them.
The harm of an insult though is just in the insult, not in any actual impact on the life of the person insulted. And it is not like most people will try to explain to you why they are insulted and why you shouldn't insult them. They will just shrug and say "same to you, buddy" and walk away.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)well you sure have the high moral ground right there in the state that started the civil war to keep 55% of its population enslaved.
enjoy the view.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)that you will not stop using the term in order to more effectively fight racism.
Your moral high ground then, is a place where you declare
using the term 'white privilege' is more important than actually 'fighting racism'. You will let go of that stupid concept when it is pried from your cold, dead hands.
And, as it turns out, neither of us is fighting racism, or even talking about racism, we are just going around and around about some stupid term. One that you love, and that I hate.
I hate it because I find it both insulting and wrong. Why do you love it so much?
I'm not gonna stop hating it - EVER, any more than I am ever gonna enjoy getting poked in the eye by a sharp stick.
And sure, no doubt the best way to fight any enemy is to poke your allies in the eye with a sharp stick. And then blame THEM when they refuse to fight by your side.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts) nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts) hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but they are not.
Point me to a thread about systemic racism where I jumped in and said "there's no such thing as systemic racism". I never said any such thing.
Yet I would say that there is no such thing as white privilege. My proof of that is the millions of white people who do NOT have privileges. They don't have two nickels to rub together, ergo they are not privileged.
Oh, and the argument is that the 9 million white households who make less than $15,000 a year have more privileges than the 4 million black households in the same income bracket.
Even IF that is true, why should we ignore the 74% of black households who are in HIGHER income brackets? Like they don't count. And especially the 47% of black households with more than TWICE the income of those low income white households. Why should they be called part of "an oppressed group"? And the nearly 15% of black households with over FIVE times the income are also part of an "oppressed group"? Really?
Systemic racism simply does NOT make blacks making over $75,000 a year oppressed and it certainly does NOT make whites making less than $15,000 a year privileged.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)denied jobs or loans because of their skin color (or "black-sounding" names). Obviously social class is an important factor in people's lives, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's more important than race - being from a middle-class background didn't save Trayvon Martin from racial profiling, and in the end, murder.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)for $40,000 more a year I would be very happy to be followed around in stores all the frigging time.
And it's not like I have gotten even 2% of the jobs that I have applied for.
And shit, I had to get a co-signer to get my first loan of a mere $3,000. The place where I banked, writing $10,000 worth of checks every year for seven years - they told me to goto a payday lender. The Credit Union, where once upon a time, before they moved out of the downtown, I had $8,000 there, they told me "well, we only lend to members."
Like white people never get turned down for loans or something.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)It's just that there are certain sucky things - like racial profiling - that you miss out on when you happen to be white. And of all the things you - and I - have been turned down for, we can say with a fair certainty that few to none were because of our skin color.
That's what I'm really getting at - your life may suck, it just doesn't suck possibly more on account of your race.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"It's just that there are certain sucky things - like racial profiling - that you miss out on when you happen to be white. "
Because there are many sucky things you do NOT miss out on when you happen to be poor. And, if you happen to be poor, the sucky things you miss out on are far, far smaller than the sucky things you do NOT miss out on - leaving, as you admitted, a surplus of suck.
Or put another way, a surplus of suck = a lack of privilege.
But that also was something that bugged me about the book "Black like me". John Howard Griffin somehow made himself black and wrote about his experiences as a black man. But some of those experiences were about being turned down for jobs, and I wondered "why does he just ASSUME that he is being turned down for the job because of his race? Does he think white guys automatically get EVERY job they apply for?"
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)by alienating them.
But perhaps that's the real intent. It sure seems like it in this thread.
I see a lot of threads about "white privilege" here. It sure seems like the ratio of white privilege threads to threads about real actions, movements, or inequities is very high -- as though some people's only real interest was pushing this simplistic concept.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But that doesn't mean everyone should have to do it, constantly - at some point we need to grow the fuck up and stop whining.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)having their feelings catered too.
Here's a video of a white guy talking about his privileged childhood that I happened to stumble across last night http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017168756
Further, I am not here to whine, only trying to explain. If pressed, I am quite capable of returning insult for insult.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)of systemic racism? "Privilege" doesn't necessarily mean you have it good - it just means all the bad things that (in most cases) don't happen to you because you aren't a person of color. And it means you can be reasonably sure that the bad things that have happened to you in life, by and large weren't due to your skin color - though I realize that isn't much comfort.
delta17
(283 posts)I know a lot of rural, poor white people. They are not used to having their feelings catered to at all. Most of them have accepted the fact that their life isn't going to get better. When they get bad news, they often respond with something like "same shit, different day."
Yeah, in general poor white people have it better than poor minorities. But that doesn't help the guy who just got laid off. When people are struggling, they don't want to hear someone more fortunate than them explain why they actually are privileged.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And downplaying racism doesn't help "the guy who just got laid off" either, because racism is just another way for the elite to divide people. So long as the average working-class white male has no class or race consciousness to speak of, he'll keep voting Republican and thinking it's people of color who've screwed him over.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The next person who posts something idiotic about how some white people are poor therefore white privilege isn't a thing can come fix the next forehead shaped hole in my drywall.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)do my minimum wage job, along with our racially mixed crew which is 60% white.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Upper middle class. *snort*
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)do?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Elitist.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)the nerve!
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Hispanic female 20%
White male (60%)
Two white females
from the US Census
White 72.4%
Asian 4.8%
Hispanic/Latino (of any race) 16.3%
Non-Hispanic/Latino (of any race) 83.7
so at your minimum wage job, a lesser proportion of whites are doing the job than are in society at large while a greater proportion of hispanics and asians are doing the job than are in society at large.
thank you for playing.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I can tell you what that is...
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)dude....no matter how hard you try...you cannot escape it. It is what it is!
Do you understand that Black man has a 70 yr Average Life Span vs YOUR 77 yr Life Span...? You have a 7 yr advantage JUST on that alone.
Are you saying that racism and misogyny in employment no longer exists?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)"the average," since as a low-income prole, my expected lifespan even as a white woman is lower.
This is called "intersectionality". For your edification.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)I wonder how they would feel about a white American lecturing a black American about how privileged they are, "Look, you have to accept the fact that you're privileged, I can, what's wrong with you? And don't talk about being black, because as a black American, you're more privileged than a black Russian." I think (hope) people would realize the insanity of this, but if we swap around the privilege/discriminated fields with white/low income, suddenly this becomes kosher.
It's interesting that some will run around telling others they have to accept a particular privilege, and then ignore the particular privileges (such as economic) they don't want to talk about.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)
k/r
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I'm not seeing any cogent discourse re: the harm befalling those who benefit from "white privilege."
I get the impression that those who take offense at the term "white privilege" doth protest overly much...
Or, they get their wee tightie-whities in a big wad...
OR, they waste a lot of energy stomping they widdle feets...
(Could be a combo of any of the above.)
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)that I am privileged. Only other whites have tried to put me down with that kind of talk.
But their shaming tactics fail as always because their elitism shines through and exposes their true character...or more precisely what they lack.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)wow.
no wonder they don't tell you. what's the point?
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
what's the point of throwing that word around if you don't know what it means?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)
JI7
(89,239 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine acknowledging a higher degree of privilege is perceived as shameful to many people... dullards or not.
brewens
(13,538 posts)guarantee you that the best black beer driver in the country would not have gotten that job. Not a chance! He could have had flat assed, stone cold proof that he was the best wherever he came from and it wouldn't have mattered a bit. They would have told themselves that the accounts in our small towns just wouldn't deal with a black driver/salesman and they would lose sales. I suppose that may have been true to some extent but if he was a really good guy and reasonably tough, I'd bet his overall numbers would have been pretty good.
You'd also have to take into account something I'm not exactly sure how to explain. Like at my high school the only black kid was extremely popular despite there being a relatively high level of racism. I always kind of thought kids that were otherwise racist, given the opportunity to know someone of a particular minority will get to be friends with them. I think they look at them as being "one of the good one's" despite generally believing all the stereotypes about all the others they never know. The black beer driver might actually do real well even in a little redneck town if he got a chance.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Perhaps to some people the phrase "white privilege" is just as hurtful as any number of other unilaterally banned words and phrases around here.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)tell us how it hurts you, how it harms you.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)If seemingly dozens of literal descriptions and innocuous colloquialisms can be deemed too offensive for use here, fair is fair. Why give one group a monopoly on hypersensitivity. Perhaps the phrase "white privilege" really does makes Chet van Buren uncomfortable. We as a community should be sensitive to that.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)How do you like them apples?
TheOldDancingBear
(17 posts)YIKES! I nearly stepped in that big flaming pile of troll poop!
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)after you accused them, you asked them to prove they weren't.
McDiggy
(150 posts)Well, growing up in a trailer park in WV with all of the other poor white people, I had no idea that I lived in splendid "privilege." My parents smoked crack and the trailer door was off the hinge from the police kicking it in a few times. Usually not a big deal until this guy named "Methhead Willie" decided to rob us a few times. Oh well. The only realistic options after school are sell drugs, get disability, or join the military. My main core of friends isn't doing to well. My childhood friend John got busted selling heroin. It was that or work at McDonalds. Not sure if I blame him. My high school friend Ernie died in Iraq when his humvee rolled over on him. My friend Alex died last year from a drug overdose. My friend Tim is an alcoholic and I had to sever my friendship with him when his pill habit made him start stealing from me. Thankfully, I heard, he's over that demon, though the liquor one remains. I somehow got out. Thankfully I have never used alcohol or drugs in my life. I went to school and took it seriously...well, seriously enough, anyway. I got a scholarship to the local community college based on my ACT scores. I was about to go into the Marines (again, one of the few avenues out), but lady luck shined on me. I worked as hard as I could for 2 years and got into a competitive professional degree (PharmD) program. And now I'm fine. If you want to call *me* privileged...fine...I am. I don't need help anymore, personally. I earned every damn drop of my privilege, though. But all of my dead or dying friends? You think their skin color makes them "privileged?" Give me a break. They were very much dealt a piss poor hand at life and they most certainly needed help.
But, hey, all of us are white. So fuck us. So called liberals hate us because we are white hillbillies. Conservatives hate us because we are poor people caught in a cycle of hopelessness. Poor, white, out of site. Nobody gives a damn about Appalachian people. So they suffer. That's a pretty clear effect of the concept of innate "white privilege" harming an entire group of people. Senator Jim Web wrote a pretty good book that kind of went into it. Looking back at when I was 16, asking me to switch places with the son of a radiologist whose skin happened to be a dark brown hue would have been a godsend. Asking me to switch places with someone in the inner city...honestly, I'm not sure I would have experienced that much of a difference. Only luck got me out.
Here's the thing you so called "liberals" need to grasp. There is a difference between "all white people are privileged" and "most people of privilege are white." Process that for a second. And its pervasive on here to nausea with everything. It's like a competition. Find a group to stereotype against and tell them that they are all magically the same. It's disgusting. Then when you experience a person from the ultimate boogeygroup, the white man, that isn't privileged, that isn't wealthy, that doesn't have a pot to piss in, you don't take him seriously. And we wonder why poor white men don't vote Democrat? As soon as they show up, they are told to sit at the back of the bus and that their sufferings don't matter. We tell suffering people that they are lucky to have pale skin and a penis and that those two "virtues" will magically save them. Except that it doesn't.
The truth is the same as its always been. In the US, you are only worth what our plutocratic overlords think we are worth. And if you are a member of the American underclass - be it Hispanic, inner city black, or Appalachian white - you are unprivileged. Your enemy isn't each other. We are living in a time where the value of a human being is less and less every day. The enemy is the emerging plutocracy that has destroyed the middle class. And, guess what, there are some white people that might want to be our allies if we took their suffering seriously.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Thanks for taking time to write it all out!
Cheers!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'd rather be a "so-called liberal" as you put it than be so ignorant about the shit people of color have to deal with.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)picture helps absolutely no one, including working-class white folks themselves.
The shit "people of color" have to deal with is pretty much the same thing "people of the hills" have to deal with. Dehumanization, marginalization from mainstream America, and hopelessness. I acknowledge very freely that many non-whites have it rough. The AVERAGE black male has it worse than anyone (again, the sons and daughters of professionals in upper class homes notwithstanding, obviously).
But this is exactly the problem. People are going around assuming that the average is everyone. It isn't. I hate to break it to you, but there are some very unprivileged white people. The second someone hears their accent, that's it. They are stupid bumpkins. Hell, I had to change my accent when I moved to Philadelphia just to avoid the prejudices against Appalachian people. And you have NO IDEA how prejudiced so-called liberals are towards Appalachian people. You feel like a side show from the carnival around them. Its nothing but you have no teeth this to when did you get your first pair of shoes that. It took me a solid year to get all the vowels right. But, again, I'm thankful that accents are easy to change. Like I said, I earned my "privilege" through education...but of you think I was born with it, you are nuts.
But you can see what its doing in WV. The people there have been abused for centuries. From The Battle of Blair Mountain when the National Guard coaxed on by a coal company actually went to war with coal miners on strike...all the way to yesterday's massive chemical spill. Surprisingly, people are actually giving a damn this time. Its pretty encouraging. Though its due to environmental reasons...not because people in WV tend to live in a holler version of hell. They just want to destroy the coal industry without addressing how West Virginia will essentially become a third world country if they did that (if it isn't already.) Where are the jobs programs and educational outreach programs in the holler? They are rare, few, and far between.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)McDiggy
(150 posts)AGAIN.
Consider the above statement I made. Most people of privilege are white. Not all white people are privileged. Make a chart like that where you only show Appalachian Americans. A good household (2 workers) brings in $40k.
Do you honestly think poor, white, Appalachian hillbillies are "privileged?" Its this idea that they are magically fine because their ancestors came from Europe is ridiculous and dehumanizing.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it has to do with you will never suffer the mental anguish known as racism.....
Poor white "hillbillies" are also not going to experience racism in their lives...they are white...THAT is the privilege it affords them...little as you seem to think it is. Do you think there are no Black people in Appalachia (that are not experiencing racism)?
In the same way...if you are a female from Apalachia...or you are a female from Pensacola...you over your lifetime WILL experience some measure of misogyny and sexism. If you are a male...you won't...That is his Male privilege...do you understand now?
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)The paradigm of the power structure has shifted since the '70s, but some people who are into "-isms" and "-ists" haven't noticed yet. They'll catch on eventually, some number of years behind the curve, after everyone else has already arrived at a larger and more current consensus.
People who fancy themselves spokespersons for "-isms" and "-ists" develop their hobby horses for the purpose of getting something out of riding them. They don't want to give that up, even if it becomes obsolete, the personal payoff is more important than the issue itself.
This, below, is what political power is...
The age of that song is testament to the fact that we were on the right track that many years ago, but we slipped off of it and have been wrangling each other in the ditch on the sidelines ever since. When people give up their divisions, and unite in addressing what the hub of the problem actually IS, then some progress will be made. Not until then though, any progress at all is the price that our petty attitudes and willful blindness costs us.
(Case in point example: look at any video or photos of the August 28, 1963 march on Washington, and see how many signs and placards there are about "white privilege" or white anything, and see whether blacks and whites are largely interspersed or rigidly separated in the crowd. There is something we should be noticing about that, something we used to know that we have forgotten.)
http://jwa.org/media/photograph-of-march-on-washington-featuring-we-march-for-signs-and-civil-rights-movement-leade
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)on DU, are a few smarmy bored keyboard warriors seeking some kind of implied permission to bash an entire race of people, ostensibly in the name of equality, blind to their own hypocrisy.
Again, great post.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you have no standing here on race. and based on what you've said about Obama, no standing here as a Democrat or liberal.
Skip Intro (18,936 posts)
67. And
I still don't see a racist quote from him.
I'm not saying I agree with the guy on any or all issues, but I believe in being honest and fair.
I haven't seen any proof of Ron Paul's supposed racism. I've seen innuendo and conjecture, but no proof. Without that, I'm not going to join in in calling the man a racist. Every repub candidate, btw, as well as Obama, has been called racist.
From what you've posted above, I'll say I surely don't agree with Paul's stance on workplace harassment protections - but I see his view. I can see where he's coming from without agreeing with him. I see him coming from his idea of limited government and individual freedom. He is coming from an extreme free-market ideology. Not sexism. I don't see sexism here.
I don't see the remarks about the caucuses in congress as racist, but coming from his idea of freedom and equality - if one group can do something, why can't every group? Again, I see his logic, where he is coming from. I don't believe he is coming from a racist view.
As far as the AIDS research opposition, I don't find it to be homophobic, but more based on his views of limited government. AIDS doesn't affect just homosexuals. My guess is he would respond the same way to other diseases as well. Again, I disagree with him here, but I see where he is coming from and I don't believe it is from a bias against gays.
My entire presence in this thread isn't to defend Ron Paul but is based on my desire to be fair and honest, because without that, what do any of us have?
If Ron Paul is a racist then it shouldn't be too hard to find quotes by him that are clearly racist. He's certainly not shy about speaking his mind. As I said, I've yet to see any.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=134347
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)look at all the recommends to this thread.
and then there's you? who do you agree with? the trolls and the people crowing about racism against whites?
mad? i'd be mad if we agreed.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)31 recs out of 4100+ views, ~300 posts, so one might glean you have somewhere between 1% and 10% support of those involved in or viewing this thread, which is about being harmed by use of a term, is it? Oh well, it is a better response than most of your threads garner, that's for sure. So you have every right to be happy, I guess.
You should, however, not be reluctant to post any threads bashing an entire race because of the color of its skin, as long as that skin color is white. By all means, you should continue to stain GD with those good old "whites are evil simply because they're white" threads! Only most of us will see your racist hypocrisy for what it is.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)You know what's saddest about you? You don't want others to claim problems from racism.
But you squeal like a stuck pig at all that you've had happen because you're white or what's happened to any white person when a black person is involved.
You complained about the "race card"...you're the biggest user of it!
There you are in South Carolina, where the Civil War started, where the Confederate Flag has been flown at the Statehouse in this century.
And you're claiming victimhood because you're white.
That's one of the most pathetic displays I've ever seen here and I've been here 11 years now. Sad. I don't know what happened to you, but if Obama turned you into a Republican, that says more about you than him.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)and I imagine people of color still make less. We are a tiered society with white men at the top and shit rolls down hill from there.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It's weird how some people have such a hard time acknowledging that.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)If current trends in educational attainment and industrial outsourcing continue, many light skinned males will be eating shit, too, with the womenfolk and people with darker complexions.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)1Carlos Slim
2 Bill Gates
3Amancio Ortega
4Warren Buffett
5Larry Ellison
6Charles Koch
7David Koch
8Li Ka-shing
9Liliane Bettencourt
10Bernard Arnault
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)that my name isn't on that list.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)It's like saying that we have a black President, therefore no more racism.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Pointing out a few nonwhite celebrities or CEO's doesn't change that fact.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)as most people use it incorrectly and are so defensive about what they think it means.
that's how it has personally harmed me.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)and the results are just about what I expected. Some folks are just absolutely clueless, and I'll leave it at that.
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)I get to hear my middle aged white male colleagues make racist comments around me as though I liked hearing that crap to explain why they were so put upon.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)for the ego (nt)
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)and thinking they hit a single. Which is maybe one reason why it's fairly easy to deny privilege, because oftentimes it's not so bleedingly obvious.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)In my case I was probably born on 1st with a strong lead-off and a slow pitcher, or something like that. My point, though, was that people have a tendency to attribute all of their success to themselves, and it is psychologically painful to be disabused of that notion.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)but also due to just plain being a fuck-up.
TheKentuckian
(25,020 posts)which causes white folks to not get it and dig in and reinforces the "privilege" it decries which isn't helpful to me or my interests as a person of color.
AKA, the terminology is counterproductive to its own cause. Maybe "advantage" would ring truer, maybe another word or phrasing would be more comprehensible to those the message is supposed to try to reach. Maybe the examples used to describe the paradigm are the problem rather than the phrase it's self.
I don't know exactly but I do get that struggling folks are not typically going to be receptive to a message about how good they have it, especially when it fails to be accompanied by any concern or effort for their plight that is felt even more keenly by the unprivileged folks next door or a cross town. Some of this is because some folks are very much protective of their own class privilege, particularly some black and brown folks that see themselves as "upwardly mobile" and think that it is their turn at bat and will be damned if they don't get to make hay like the white folks did.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Explained in this post above, I don't want to write it again:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024306343#post267
The disunity that memes like "white privilege" have fostered, has certainly caused the increase in leverage and advantages of the super rich, as well as the loss of same by everybody else (including me)... causing there to be fewer jobs which are lower paid, and fewer homes which are higher cost... and the rest of the ills that go with extreme inequality in our society, which yes, impacts me big time just like everybody else, and specifically in those ways you mentioned. Yes, I lost a job and a home. (and I'm paid less than lots of non-white people.due to the same dynamic at work)
The price tag is pretty big and very real, so I wouldn't be so glib about it.
And if I lived in a red state, #4 would be true too.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)not just for their own difficulties, but (individual) white people's as well. Which is how you get to the absurd "White people are the persecuted ones!" bullshit that's floating around with a black President in office.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)(or any other sort of privilege, the point is the same), is that it goes from an actual action (discrimination) to a passive state of being (privilege), which in fact is condemning or blaming people for acts they didn't do but other people of their race did... which is racism again... definition:" n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. "
That unchangeable fact of being white becomes the focus of the issue instead of actually changing acts of discrimination where it is found to exist. Hence, actual change for the better is sidelined. Instead, people focus on purifying other peoples' attitudes which is a pointless waste of time, and can be dangerous (the example of the religious right for instance).
The bottom line of it is that instead of judging people as individuals, with concepts of privilege we are back to judging people as a race (or gender etc.), which is a step backwards. And that stepping backwards is why many resist it.
The OP asked a question, seemingly to point out that there is no answer, and I answered it, mostly to make the point that there is an answer. It goes to the old saying, if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.
I am white, but I am also a woman, so I can understand both sides of the issue of privilege. And I can sum up my viewpoint the most succinctly by saying this: anybody who wants to replace the supposed privilege of one group by setting up a similarly abusive privilege by another group can fuck right off. I am not the tiniest bit interested in that. I am interested in equality as humans and equal treatment under the law for all. Regardless. (Sort of along the lines of this general idea...)
As to societal attitudes, I'm not into telling anybody what they ought to think. I believe that attitudes tend to correct themselves over time when there is equal treatment under the law, as much as they are going to be corrected in a given person that is.
But whatever people here want to do about their political causes is up to them. As of course mine are up to me, and the same for all of us. We prioritize what we feel is the best way to go.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)just like anybody else, and I see no particular need to sugarcoat or bullshit in doing so.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)
Lost_Count
(555 posts)
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Use of that phrase hasn't affected me in any way. I can't imagine how it could possibly affect any white person.
Response to CreekDog (Original post)
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