I'd like to think there is a consensus; There are things you don't say in mixed company.

[cherokeeprogressive]

In this context, I'm ONLY talking about gender-based comments/jokes. Take your race issues elsewhere, this isn't about that.

I might tell jokes with "the fella's" that are okay to tell with "the fella's", but are inappropriate HERE, or ANYWHERE in mixed company.

DU is "mixed company".

What's so fucking hard to understand about that?

[Gravitycollapse]

1. What is wrong with it is that there is no logical argument for such situational awareness.

In other words, explain to me why some jokes are okay to say around other men while they aren't okay to say when around women.

Is this one of those "it just is" arguments?

[cherokeeprogressive]

3. Damn. Every argument, given that there are over 7 BILLION people on the planet

is situational I guess.

So I'm at the poker table with men I've known since elementary school (my social circle to this day and I'm 52... it includes the wives, sisters, children and grandchildren of same but in this instance I'll limit it to four guys I played high school baseball with for the sake of argument) and I tell a joke. Five guys. Five guys who grew up together. Five guys who've known each other for FORTY YEARS. You're angry we'd say things to each other that we'd not say when our wives were in attendance? FOR FUCK'S SAKE WHY?

We say LOTS of things around each other, at the poker table, at the bar, on the golf course, that we'd NEVER say when women were around.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. All that means is they will understand the context. That says absolutely nothing...

About jokes being inherently different or understood by some different form of logic for women vs men.

What you are referring to is an "inside joke" and the only difference between that and anything else is the persons you are talking to possess information crucial to the understanding of said joke that the general population does not possess. The grotesqueness or sexism or racism or homophobia inherent in such messages is not addressed by simply arguing it's an "inside joke."

The biggest question I have for you, which is one you have yet to answer, is why wouldn't you say such jokes in front of your wives? What makes them appropriate when you're by yourselves and inappropriate when your wives are around?

That's not a rhetorical question. I actually want to know.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Your biggest question for me...

When I'm sitting at the poker table in my house at 2 in the morning drinking whiskey and smoking cigars, there isn't a joke I could tell that would offend a woman, because there wouldn't be a woman there, MY Wife, OR the wives of any of my friends, TO be offended.

You want to know WHY I wouldn't tell an off-color joke in front of my Wife? Because She wouldn't appreciate it. She doesn't like ANYONE swearing. I'm 52, she's going to be 65 in June. In front of her, shit and damn are about all she allows, and even then she thinks (and I'd dare anyone to argue) the point could be made without expletives.

[Gravitycollapse]

12. So you're telling me this entire OP was constructed so that we would know...

Your argument revolves around the fact that your wife has a distaste for explicit language? You expect me to believe that?

The situational awareness you seem to want to identify but not explain, I suspect, rests upon topics of discussion that are not simply distasteful because you use the word fuck every once in a while.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. I'll have Bleu Cheese on that... don't hold the pepper.

[Go Vols]

6. Women seem to be offended

when such things are said.But when they leave the bar they say they had the greatest time listening to us,and my GF is present although she does get a little pissed now and then,but it just last a minute or so and she comes up with something to turn the tables.

[giftedgirl77]

52. Some women, not all of us feel the same way about

everything that is being addressed as "over the line" here & look at the posts or the subjects laugh & say you've got to be kidding me.

[Ms. Toad]

62. For one reason, because one of those 5 guys might just be

my high school sweetheart who came out to me in her 50s as a transgender woman, and for most of those 5 decades of life it was very painful for her to be present when guys said things about women they presumed they were saying only around other guys.

And she just recently shared her shame that she let too much sexism (among other things) go unchallenged in situations like you mention for fear of being discovered.

While her situation not the norm, it is not rare. There are also many men who are uncomfortable with the kind of things you feel you should be able to say when women aren't around - but who find it hard to speak up for a variety of reasons (avoiding confrontation, fear of being perceived as feminine, and so on).

Which isn't exactly the answer to your question, which is why it is not appropriate on DU. And I do appreciate that what you were getting at is the need to be careful of the feelings of women who might be hurt or offended by what you feel free to say when you presume no women are around. What my response really answers is the question of whether it should be said at all.

Back to my friend, I share a lot of her angst. I happen to be part of many groups which people put down. To name a few Lesbian, rape survivor, sibling of 3 Native Americans, sibling of a man who spent 20 years on death row. I hear far too much about what people really think about me, because I am the invisible "other" and they feel free to talk about me because it never crosses their mind I am present (as it never crossed anyone's mind that a woman was present when my friend was around). I have heard similar stories from blacks who passed as whites for years. If it is something that would be offensive to the person who is being talked about, it really shouldn't be said at all. Often I can turn the conversations about me into conversations with me, and I do because I think letting people know when what they are saying is hurtful is important - because many people really aren't consciously aware their words sting. But it takes a lot out of me to do that face to face on the spur of the moment, and sometimes I don't manage and people (perhaps like you) aren't aware that what you are saying even in what you believe to be unmixed company can still be hurtful.

[bhikkhu]

23. Different situations call for different behavior: even 2 year olds understand situational awareness

"it just is".

That doesn't imply, of course, that its ok to be misogynist in one room, violent in the next, and racist in another, as there are things that aren't appropriate anywhere.

[Go Vols]

2. Women are to delicate?

For such jokes,I think not as I observe prolly 5 nights a week at the local bar/restaurant.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. I don't spend nights at the local bar. Gave that up decades ago. I live life in the real world.

To delicate? I don't even know what that means.

I know what I as an individual think is inappropriate. I'd bet that more women than not would appreciate MY view than yours, but then I'm 52, and on my way out.

[Go Vols]

9. In the real world

there are bars that serve food,there is one 900 yards from my home.
My GF prefers eating out rather than cooking,although I have food cooked,it takes 30 seconds to get there in real world time and is fairly cheap.

Delicate in the terms I used means it is offensive.You have me beat by a year,I am but 51.

[FatBuddy]

39. on your way out?

Rodney Dangerfield lived to be 84.

[Lex]

4. gender and race jokes aren't all that different

actually especially in the context of your explanation

[ProgressSaves]

8. You're right.

It's all about the audience.

In some situations and around some groups of people, it is necessary to be meticulous about what is said.

Then other times, the filter can come off so that you can relax and have a good time. And a good time would not be had if you were concerned about making sure every subject of discussion had the approval of someone not in the room.

[madinmaryland]

11. Thanks for another fucking gender war thread. THAT IS WHAT YOUR THREAD IS.

Adios.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Adios.

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. You're showing your era.

It's not hard at all for me to understand because I'm pretty old too, but what you don't get is that what you said implies that it is OK to say it, or even more to the point, to think/feel it, in any or no company.

For the next 20 or 30 years it will remain our choice. Do you want to be that geezer that thinks Elvis is still The King, or are you going to really look to see why all these kids are talking about this Hendricks kid?

[Go Vols]

16. 52 is pretty old?

Fuck

Edit: 9 months till ...

[Egalitarian Thug]

19. I know exactly how you feel...

It's a quarter till 10 on Friday night and we're here typing...

[Go Vols]

21. +1

you made me laugh

[Egalitarian Thug]

25. Then it's been a good day. Thanks.

[Skittles]

30. I'll schedule to kick your pretty old ass in 9 months, Go Vols

yes INDEED

[loli phabay]

51. hes kind of old skittles, i would get your licks in now before hes in a secure granny facility

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. "in any or no company." I don't understand that.

Do you think it's impossible for me and four friends to tell totally off-color and what would be considered sexist jokes when we're alone but not be sexist when we're in mixed company?

[Egalitarian Thug]

28. Of course not, and yes, that's exactly my point.

You wrote your/our reality;

Do you think it's impossible for me and four friends to tell totally off-color and what would be considered sexist jokes when we're alone but not be sexist when we're in mixed company?

I get exactly what you're saying, but here's the point, the "but not be sexist when we're in mixed company" part really means "but not ACT sexist when we're in mixed company".

And that's what I was saying about it being our choice. Nobody's going to make the effort to drag us forward, we can stay right where we are until we die.

[NoOneMan]

17. I'd like to think if you can't tell a joke with mixed company, might not be a great joke for fellas

Though I do think some raunchy non gender based Seth Rogan type funny isnt dinner party funny

[Ken Burch]

20. Did you just say that Seth Rogan has no gender?

Not sure how Seth would feel about that statement.

[NoOneMan]

24. I so wish I could reply to this with the first thing that came into my head

But I already have 4 hides. Juries will not like any reference to non-consensual 'titty fucking' (as called in "This is the End&quot and Seth Rogan

[Ken Burch]

18. If those jokes are unacceptable in a room where women are present...

(and yes, I've heard a lot of "those jokes" over the years, when I was hanging out with guys who "talk as among men", as an older friend of mine puts it)should we keep telling them in rooms where there is nobody BUT men?

Is a laugh(even, at times, a big laugh, admittedly and unfortunately) worth perpetuating humor that may well be the comedic aspect of a cycle of abuse?

[Journeyman]

22. I find many things inappropriate to say or be said around me . . .

and generally, it is comments that are degrading to people.

Most everyone I know, myself included, fits in that category.

And those who don't -- my pups, the turtles in our pond, the birds we feed -- seem to enjoy themselves more around me when I'm not talking ugly.

Simple courtesies. They add immeasurably to making life pleasant for myself and everyone I meet.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. "my pups, the turtles in our pond, the birds we feed..."

"seem to enjoy themselves more around me when I'm not talking ugly."

Um... yeah.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. I don't know what crowds you run with

but I have no jokes/comments I would not tell/say in front of women I associate with. I don't see women as delicate flowers who can't handle an adult discussion. I also don't have an adversarial relationship with them or view them as people I must keep secrets from.

[Niceguy1]

31. I don't see any thing wrong with

Joking among friends in a private situation. Its normal and common place. In a public forum political correctness obviously applies

[Nevernose]

32. I'd agree (and I've done stand-up comedy)

Because it's kind of the definition of sexism (regardless of the sex/gender of the the joker or jokee).

On a non-comedy site on a place like DU, jokes based on sexual characteristics are inappropriate. Don't call someone a dick and don't call someone a pussy. Calling someone an asshole is perfectly fine, because most everyone has an anus and is therefore not sexist.

Besides which, they're too easy. It's like making jokes about drugs, or "white people do this, but black people do this" jokes: they're too easy. They're not what someone truly funny says, they're what someone says to get the easy laugh.

For instance: I can tell some rape jokes, rape jokes that are funny and would make 99% of people laugh. I wouldn't be caught dead telling a rape joke in which rape was the central element or the punch line, because that would not only be completely wrong (rape isn't something to laugh about, ever), but there are fucking rape victims who read this website. In a club, all bets are off, but on DU? Wildly inappropriate.

At the absolute best, jokes based on sex, or gender, or race, or physical appearance, or anything other than what a person has made the conscious choice of representing that also goes against plain human decency is crass at best, and bigoted at worst.

[Whisp]

33. gawd I hate that 'mixed company' shit talk.

I've heard that most of my growing up life and what it meant was leaving girls and women out of the conversation and those conversations were usually not flattering to girls or women or minorities or anything other that big buff he-men .

we are not mixed, we are all human.

[seaglass]

34. I get sort of what you are saying cherokeeprogressive. I appreciate that you recognize that

gender-based comments/jokes can be offensive to some DUers and therefore it is not appropriate to make them on DU. It shows that you care about your fellow DUers and there is nothing wrong with that.

If I am getting the rest of what you are saying, you enjoy telling sexist jokes with women as your target when you are with the guys. It seems weird that you know these kind of comments/jokes would hurt your wife and other women in your life but you still think it's OK. All I can think of is if I was with my female friends and told offensive jokes about some characteristic about my husband - say a mean firefighter joke - I would feel disloyal and I just wouldn't do it. My husband is to be supported by me - not the butt of a joke. . Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

[pipoman]

35. i don't really disagree at all.

However, believe this goes to a bigger issue of gender based societal lies and hiding of truth. For instance most men are reluctant to tell their wives how much they think about sex and what those thoughts are exactly. Men are reluctant to talk about their physiological differences and expectations. Many marital issues could be avoided if society were more willing to be honest, imho.

[treestar]

36. That sounds Victorian

I'd rather hear it all than be protected from it. In fact that's how sexism can stay put. Many women don't support feminism because they don't know or don't want to know that their romantic ideals of being protected aren't really much.

[loli phabay]

37. its all about knowing the audience and context, there are words used in other company that

Last edited Sat Jan 11, 2014, 10:10 AM - Edit history (1)

you would never use on du, or in front of your parents or kids. its all about the setting, depending on which i use lots of words that some throw fits over, some even self descriptive.

[dipsydoodle]

38. My five cats don't seem to take much notice of whatever I say.

[loli phabay]

40. thats cause you speak in a funny accent. ;)

[99Forever]

41. To paraphrase Sonny and Cher....

~~~"... and the bait goes on...

...the bait goes on."~~~

[gollygee]

42. Some sexist jokes contribute to rape culture

For instance, I remember a joke about how raping a prostitute isn't actually rape but shoplifting. A joke like that contributes to a culture that makes the rape of sex workers seem more acceptable, or at least less unacceptable.

[OldHippieChick]

43. I am a white person

Because of that "some" white people think it's okay to say racist jokes in my presence. It is not. I am deeply offended and say so. I would hope men would speak up when inappropriate jokes are told about women, but maybe I'm old-fashioned. If you can't tell your mother - don't tell anyone.

[Orrex]

54. Nice.

I've seen that sort of thing many times, somebody unloading a racist joke or commentary on the assumption that we're all "on the same page" about such things. Not only are those "jokes" not funny; I don't want to be associated with that mentality, especially not if someone from the joke-targeted group happens to be within earshot.

A common trick is to throw a bigoted joke in after a string of witticisms not about race or gender, so that you're suddenly standing in a group of people laughing at a really vile joke.

[TransitJohn]

44. "The fella's" what?

?

[MineralMan]

45. If you think it's funny when with the 'fellas,"

Then you think it's funny. That you don't tell the jokes in mixed company doesn't change the fact that you think they're funny. And there is the foundation of the problem.

Any gender-based joke that you wouldn't tell in mixed company is still an offensive gender-based joke. That you recognize that it would offend women is more evidence that it's offensive.

How about not telling such jokes anywhere?

[loli phabay]

47. i would agree and disagree, there are jokes and words that are used in certain company and

situations that though acceptable in those settings would not be outside of them. also inside jokes can be crass to outsiders. different audiences find different things acceptable whether thats words or deeds.

[MineralMan]

49. The OP mentioned 'gender-specific' jokes, not language.

We all moderate our language for different audiences, or at least most of us do. If the question is about gender-related jokes, though, I've heard few of those that were not offensive to people of the gender being joked about.

It's not just language, it's the topic matter of the jokes. If someone finds jokes that demean women funny, then that says something about the mindset of that person, whether or not that person makes that clear in mixed company or not. The same thing applies to other groups who are the butt of those jokes.

I don't find jokes that demean classes of people funny at all. Making fun of something that people can't control or that are inborn, like race, gender, disabilities, sexual orientation and other involuntary characteristics isn't ever funny to me.

OTOH, making fun of things people choose doesn't have the same effect, so I'm good with jokes about Republicans, for example.

Maybe the OP will clarify what sort of jokes he is talking about.

[loli phabay]

50. gender specific jokes can be self deprecating as well, and i was spinning of from the other post

about words like bitch etc. its all down to the setting and individuals involved.

[MineralMan]

53. See, that's where I disagree.

The jokes we tell say a lot about how we really feel about things. If, for example, a joke has a black person as the butt of the joke, then it is a racist joke. If the butt of the joke is a woman, then it's very likely that it is a sexist joke. Jokes about rape, for example, are not funny, and help to perpetuate bad stuff. So do racist jokes.

For me, if I'm in the company of men, and such jokes are told, I tend to ask some sort of pointed question that makes the joker think about what the subject of the joke is, and how that might apply to other people in that person's life. For example, a rape or slut joke might get a comment from me about the joker's wife or daughter and how the joke might feel if they substituted their names into the joke. Generally, that gets my point across pretty clearly.

I'm pretty intolerant of such stuff, wherever I am. I don't need to hear it, and I'll comment if I do, wherever such stuff happens. People who know me know that, and generally don't make such jokes more than once in my company. If they can't deal with that, then they won't be in my company much.

If a person thinks a racist, sexist, or other joke that has a class of people as the butt of the joke is funny, then I have to wonder about their mindset in general with regard to that class.

[loli phabay]

55. now if the joke is someone putting themselves down how do you see that, as humans we are

complex and our sense of humour is complex as well, you also have to remember that there are inside jokes that to outsiders can be shocking but within a relationship or group have a different meaning. much the same as people may use words with each other that outsiders would find a no no.

[MineralMan]

58. Self-deprecating humor isn't a problem, really.

In fact, it's one of the most common forms of humor. Not the same thing that's being discussed here, I think.

I'm very familiar with that kind of humor, since it's common among groups of men just hanging around with each other. I spent several years working as a mechanic, and trading insults and self-deprecating jokes was a commonplace. Demeaning classes of people, however, is quite something else. Almost all gender and race-based humor I have ever heard demeans a class of people. I don't like it, and I say so. There's always something else to joke about.

[loli phabay]

59. we just have to agree to disagree, no problem

i have always felt that humour should be no holds barred, you just make yourself look like an asshole if you dont understand context and when its appropriate. i liken it to as i said the use of certain words, when used in context and even when used in the bad way between people with the understanding i have no problem with them. thanks for the conversation.

[JVS]

46. But of course.

There are plenty of jokes that are not bigoted that are inappropriate for mixed company.

[Shankapotomus]

48. I thought we were friends

I have to be honest. I'm devastated.

[Theodis]

56. I disagree with the theme of this thread

Jokes are not serious and this is a serious forum.
And, was the F-bomb really necessary?

[Mike Nelson]

57. If something shouldn't be said to a group of both genders...

...it shouldn't be said to a group of one. This is just the way I like to conduct myself. I am not judging others...

[Logical]

60. I am a male. Tell me a joke that insults males. I might laugh. n-t

[TorchTheWitch]

61. Wrong. If it's inappropriate to say such things in front of women

Than it's also unacceptable to say them when it's just "the fella's'. Geez, how is it that you could think otherwise? Your OP might as well have said that it's not ok to make race-based comments/jokes in the mixed company of white and brown people but ok to make such ugly comments/jokes when only in the company of "the whities". Or that it's inappropriate to make ugly comments/jokes about the overweight only when in the mixed company of normal/under weight people and overweight people but perfectly acceptable to say those things in the company of only normal/under weight people.

Just why is it that it's so damn obvious when the abused group of people is anything BUT gender-based? Making the same statement when it comes to race-based, weight-based, religion-based, or any other subjugated group of people shows up such absurd statements for what they are in a glaring way, yet when it comes solely to gender, well, it's just so HARD to figure it out... gender-based insults are miraculously just marinated in nuance, contextual complexity, where seemingly by magic such idiotic statements made about any other group are as obviously stupid they'd be bathed in neon and glow with strobe lighting.

Simple, if you can't make the same statement about any OTHER group rather than gender without announcing yourself as a bigoted idiot, you can't make such statements when the group is gender-based.

No, it's NOT ok in mixed company... it's not ok in DECENT company just as it would be with any other group plugged into the same exact statement and that is so glaringly obvious.

Oh, but here on DU the most insane excuses are made and we're supposed to believe that typical gender-based insults and language are just sooo confuuuuuuusing with their make believe nuance, contextual complexity and now we even have outright denials of typical insulting words magically and suddenly becoming gender neutral despite the oh so obvious evidence to the contrary... you know, just like the n-word magically and suddenly became race neutral. And of course there is also that well worn excuse of "well, it doesn't bother me personally, and I'm female" as if any one person's personal feelings about such obvious insulting words is the end all and be all of whether or not they mean what they do, whether or not they are offensive, and whether or not they should be thrown around like rice at a wedding.


There's a VERY simple rule of thumb when it comes to comments/jokes/insults that are specific group related as to whether or not they should or shouldn't be used... if even a scant few people are offended by their use than SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP. with that language and use it to your heart's desire when alone in your shower where no one else will have to endure them while you contemplate what the FUCK is wrong with YOU that you have such a desperate need to use language that you KNOW is offensive to people and with damn good historical and current societal reason.

Damn, it's so SIMPLE - don't be an asshole. Why is that so damn HARD for so many people here? Especially when the English language is just overflowing with words that there is no difficulty for even the must articulately inept to find other more appropriate unbiased unbigoted language to use instead?

[WhiteTara]

63. I've worked in male dominated work places

where the atmosphere is one or two steps below rape culture; but women are definitely supposed to know their place. In order to survive, I learned to tell jokes that made men blush and once I became so angry in a situation, I made a trucker cry. Because I was almost always the only woman in the room, I wore high, high heels, blue jeans and swore like a sailor. What a life...so glad it's not mine.

It didn't make feel better at night and I left that career field because it was soul killing. I have had to go through remedial language therapy to not use fuck in every sentence as either a noun, verb, adjective or adverb.