This is what privilege looks like

[FreeState]

Privilege comes in many forms. You can even be a relatively small minority yourself and partake of a larger set of heterosexual privilege. This is a release from the LDS (Mormon) Church on guidelines do to marriage equality coming to Utah. Note what the church is demanding from the supporters of gay marriage (or more specifically LGBT persons).

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-instructs-leaders-on-same-sex-marriage

Changes in the civil law do not, indeed cannot, change the moral law that God has established. God expects us to uphold and keep His commandments regardless of divergent opinions or trends in society. His law of chastity is clear: sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife. We urge you to review and teach Church members the doctrine contained in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.”

Just as those who promote same-sex marriage are entitled to civility, the same is true for those who oppose it. The Church insists on its leaders’ and members’ constitutionally protected right to express and advocate religious convictions on marriage, family, and morality free from retaliation or retribution. The Church is also entitled to maintain its standards of moral conduct and good standing for members.

Consistent with our fundamental beliefs, Church officers will not employ their ecclesiastical authority to perform marriages between two people of the same sex, and the Church does not permit its meetinghouses or other properties to be used for ceremonies, receptions, or other activities associated with same-sex marriages. Nevertheless, all visitors are welcome to our chapels and premises so long as they respect our standards of conduct while there.

While these matters will continue to evolve, we affirm that those who avail themselves of laws or court rulings authorizing same-sex marriage should not be treated disrespectfully. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to love and treat all people with kindness and civility—even when we disagree.

Isn't that rich? A call for civility and respect. The LDS Church is buying into the big talking point being used by anti-gay extremist that the gays are the ones persecuting them. Only privilege would allow a group or person to believe that taking such a position without first undoing the harm done comes from a place of wanting mutual respect.

BYU used shock therapy to turn gay men straight: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700

Prop 8 - not only the donations but the actual language and misleading stigmatizing ads.

Encouraged gay men and women to get married anyway until the late 80s.


(I could go on but Im sure everyone here does need a list

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. Some people do not seem to understand the true meaning of the word "privilege"

They somehow associate it only with wealth or class....They don't understand that to even be able live your life WITHOUT having to see the words about your life expressed the way these churches do...is in and of itself a PRIVILEGE!

[AverageJoe90]

6. ".....is in and of itself a PRIVILEGE!" Not really, to be truthful.

Here's the big problem, VR: "Privilege" is a word that, in social justice circles, at least these days, often assumes genuine benefits for groups as a whole. In the real world, however, anti-LGBT bigotry benefits no one other than perhaps those who propagate such disgusting language & thoughts. And not only do the targets of the bigotry suffer, but outside the circle of bigoted propagandists, nobody else shares in any "benefits", real or imagined.

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. well that is simply NOT true Joe!

priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(ə lij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit; More
something regarded as a rare opportunity and bringing particular pleasure.
"I have the privilege of awarding you this scholarship"
synonyms: honor, pleasure More
(in a parliamentary context) the right to say or write something without the risk of incurring punishment or legal action for defamation.
noun: absolute privilege; plural noun: absolute privileges
the right of a lawyer or official to refuse to divulge confidential information.
historical
a grant to an individual, corporation, or place of special rights or immunities, esp. in the form of a franchise or monopoly.
synonyms: immunity, exemption, dispensation More
verbformal
verb: privilege; 3rd person present: privileges; past tense: privileged; past participle: privileged; gerund or present participle: privileging
1.
grant a privilege or privileges to.
"English inheritance law privileged the eldest son"

[AverageJoe90]

14. Yes, I get your particular argument.....

But what good does this certain particular use of the term do, if not everyone gets to benefit from this discrimination? That's the problem, you see. This isn't something that benefits an entire group, but rather, only those *within* the group who propagate this problem, whether out of desires for personal satisfaction or gaining followers, etc.

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. it's not a "particular" argument...it is "THE" argument

or are you going to argue with Webster's dictionary...MY GOD it's the very first damn definition! Exceptions to the rule do NOT change that fact.

If an entire group IS NOT discriminated against because of their skin color...THAT group is privileged! PERIOD...dictionary definition! Classic example based on what the dictionary says is the very definition Joe.

Privilege is not necessarily about wealth or class....it can be about "advantages" you have...IE your skin color.

Denial is STILL not a river in Egypt.


YOU Joe are privileged! It is a privilege for you to live in a country that doesn't hold YOUR skin color against you.

YOU as a straight man in every state...have the right to marry who you want...THAT is a privilege you are granted SOLELY on your sexuality....YOU ARE THE PRIVILEGED CLASS!

1priv·i·lege noun \ˈpriv-lij, ˈpri-və-\
: a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others

[AverageJoe90]

17. "PERIOD...dictionary definition!" Or rather, a rather farfetched misinterpretation of such.....

If we're going by the by-the-book-literal original definition of the word, anyhow; you seem to forget that the context of the original meaning also indicates something above a "norm", as it were.

Denial is STILL not a river in Egypt.

No denial here. Fact still remains that not every straight person benefits from anti-LGBT discrimination, not every white person benefits from discrimination against People of Color, etc.; what's so hard about this?

[VanillaRhapsody]

19. not far fetched if you bothered to read a dictionary once in a while...

reading comprehension says that Privilege is my definition...


priv·i·lege
ˈpriv(əlij/Submit
noun
1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

Facts are facts...and definitions are definitions...THAT is what a dictionary is for!

Every straight person DOES NOT get discriminated on based on their sexuality....if you are straight you are THAT privileged class (or group). It has nothing to do with WHO discriminates...only Who doesn't get discriminated against....Straight people do benefit from not having to suffer that discrimination...they are privileged because of it.....You as a straight man ARE by definition immune to that discrimination... PERIOD it is what the dictionary says...

[AverageJoe90]

20. "THAT is what a dictionary is for!" And yet, you leave out an important piece of context.

Not exactly very comprehensive, to be frank.....sorry, but it's true.

[VanillaRhapsody]

22. Yes it is COMPREHENSIVE...that is what the dictionary is for...

you can have your own opinion....but not your own facts...

[AverageJoe90]

23. I hate to say this, but you could really learn to take your own advice on this one................nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. I hate to say this....but you really don't seem to

you refuse even in the face of evidence I presented....YOU ARE privileged.

I won't back down when I know I am right.


1priv·i·lege noun \ˈpriv-lij, ˈpri-və-\
: a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others

you are privileged to be a White Male in the United States...period.

[AverageJoe90]

27. "I won't back down when I know I am right." The problem is, you're not.

Again, the problem is, you use this to try to back up the theory of "all people of (group) benefit from discrimination against (other group)". Even the most rudimentary observation of real-world events tells of a far more complex picture.

For example, there are indeed a few black conservatives who do, in fact, reap personal benefits from perpetuating stereotypes against their own people, such as Thomas Sowell(mostly financial in his case). And let's not get started on white Southern conservatives who bank on various stereotypes against their own sociocultural group, as there's plenty of those; just look at Phil Robertson from "Duck Dynasty" for example. Not only does he earn truckloads of moolah from his TV show, but also lots of emotional support from assorted yahoos, from both sides of the Mason-Dixon line, all across the country, including from people in power(in all truthfulness, though, I think we can both agree Robertson certainly has quite a bit more personal privilege & overall influence than Sowell ever could.)

My point is, this issue is really a lot more complex than just this overly simplistic & highly dualistic, binary thinking of: "This entire group is oppressed, therefore, this other entire group benefits". And as even history has shown, this kind of thinking does not often provide very many positive results.....

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. No its not...you can claim "complexity" all you want...

YOU ARE a member of a privileged class in the United States....straight White Male.

Period..

If you were the Saints and I were the bears...and if the odds were 3 to 1 in favor of the Saints...the Saints are the privileged class.

the Odds are IN your favor in America if you are White and Male!

Your refusal to accept YOUR privilege...changes nothing you still are.

[AverageJoe90]

30. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I will say this, though: We can argue over semantics as much as we'd like. But the facts on the ground *are* on my side, in regards to the complexity of the issue. That much is absolutely indisputable, no matter how you slice it. And nothing can and will change that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. Mr William Pitt also says YOU are wrong...it is not complex at all

He laid out many of the privileges you already enjoy and benefit from...you cannot deny it....

see here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024325009

[AverageJoe90]

32. Good points past the first sentence.....but it still does not change the fact.....

that not every white person benefits from the disadvantages of People of Color. In fact, about the only people who really do are the ones who are actively perpetuating the screwing or those who took direct advantage of said screwing.

Glassunion made a rather well-thought out response to a similar OP laying out their thoughts on the matter:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4301598

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. it changes everything about everything you said...

YOU are privileged...PERIOD....YOU benefit from point Mr Pitt laid out....As a White person...I am privileged...as a woman I am not...I am straight....so I am also in that privileged class....I benefit from that privileged status.

it is THAT simple

being privileged doesn't mean you are a misogynist, or a racist or a homophobe...

They are not the only ones that benefit from their status....

[FreeState]

37. However every believing LDS member benefits

The basics of the LDS faith are this:

• Jesus paid the price for your sins
  
• God made a way to be sealed to a spouse of the opposite sex for all time and eternity
  
• Joseph Smith and living prophets make this authority available
  
• You can make it to the highest kingdom in Heaven only if you marry a spouse of the opposite sex
  

If you are a believing member of the LDS faith you directly benefit from social norms being reinforced to your beliefs - in fact once that social norm is removed (opposite sex marriage) the very premiss of your faith crumbles. The LDS Church's doctrine worships heterosexual couplings - it is one of the main tenets of the faith. Most LDS members believe the way we view marriage today - love based male and female pairings - are the basis of the afterlife and have always existed like they do today (the basis of love and marriage, not the plurality of women).

[VanillaRhapsody]

25. there is NOTHING in the dictionary definition that I said that wasn't there...

there is nothing in the definition that supports your contention.....

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024322650

[nomorenomore08]

45. Being spared others' hatred and bigotry, and the resultant stresses on one's life, is certainly

a "benefit." Even if may not always be an obvious one.

[AverageJoe90]

46. I guess we could say it's a disadvantage that white people don't have to face as often.....

or in conjunction with structural prejudices, that is true. But my main problem with this particular rhetoric, that is, "all benefits/all disadvantages" is that it always leads to a highly binary style of thinking.....which to be truthful, doesn't apply all that well to complex issues, especially not ethnic issues, but also not to class or even gender. And that does present a problem.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. What a damn joke!

I am supposed to be nice to people who would deny me equality?! I can be polite...up to a point.

[redqueen]

7. Exactly so. This is why the tone argument is usually BS in these contexts. nt

[AverageJoe90]

18. Can't really blame you.

And the fact that they have the gall to demand respect from LGBTs while still actively denying them their rights is definitely screwed up, no question.

[pnwmom]

3. They STILL encourage gay men and women to enter mixed marriages with straight people.

They might not say it directly, but they push them into these marriages indirectly, by making it the only socially acceptable way to have a family.

Fortunately, the younger generation of straight and gay people will put an end to this, probably in the next ten years.

[AverageJoe90]

21. I hope they DO put an end to this.

People shouldn't have to be pressured to marry traditionally just because some church leader says so.
And frankly, even if some Mormons may not agree with same-sex marriage, they still shouldn't be allowed to force LGBT persons to conform to this arbitrary standard. LGBTs should be allowed to marry the way they want, and I'm sure most people on DU will agree with me on that.

[siligut]

36. Don't forget about the straight spouse of the closeted gay male

While married Mormon women as a whole probably don't enjoy the same benefits as non-Mormon women just because of their generalized chattel status, those married to gay men may not even enjoy the marriage bed after producing their quota of offspring.

I hope you are right about the younger generation.

[pnwmom]

38. How could I forget her?

She's my mom.

And she suffered more than he did.

[siligut]

39. Then you do know

I am sorry, Mormonism messes up lives in so many ways.

[pnwmom]

41. Not Mormonism in our case.

Catholicism, but it had the same effect. And it doesn't have to be a religion -- almost no one accepted gay people when I was growing up. Gay people, even those who didn't get married, felt they had to hide just to get by. It was a different world.

And I think that ten years from now, today's views will seem antiquated in most if not all of the country.

[siligut]

42. It seems to me that religion is the source of prejudice against gays

Maybe, originally, prohibiting same sex relations was meant to increase the population, we can certainly see that in Mormonism. Using god as an excuse just made it more legitimate.

Again, I hope you are right, we certainly don't need to worry about a dwindling human population.

[pnwmom]

43. Or religion was a tool serving those who were prejudiced against gays.

People had an innate prejudice and decided God agreed with them.

[siligut]

44. You win and you made me laugh

I can't help but think of the writers of True Blood who portrayed the Catholic hierarchy as vampires who used their positions of power to satisfy their own lust and hunger.

I agree, religion is a tool and I know this wasn't a contest, but you did cut right to the quick.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. Because religion is best sold as a list of things to hate.

[AverageJoe90]

5. Some good thoughts here, though it really shouldn't be called a "privilege", to be truthful.

Even if some individual church leaders may receive some personal satisfaction, or even personal gains, from such covert B.S., I'd like to point out that Mormons as a whole don't benefit from this kind of thing. Therefore, while this is indeed unfortunate, this phenomenon can't really be called a "privilege" of hetero-Mormons, per se, but rather, let's instead directly address how it *adversely* affects those in the minority who happen to be LGBT persons.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. but to NOT be discriminated against IS a privilege JOE see definition above...

when your parents took away your "privileges" as a child were they ONLY taking your piggy bank? Here it is used in a sentenced...perhaps you have heard this line before...

"It's a privilege to live in these United States"

AverageJoe.....denial is not a river in Egypt....you ARE enjoying "privileged" status whether you like it or not.

[Coyotl]

8. Poor use of the term privilege. Call discrimination what it is, discrimination.

Why do away with the real truth of the matter, discrimination? Those who are NOT discriminated against are not in a group of privilege.
You seem to lack the discrimination Meaning 2) to see discrimination (meaning 1) at work here.

noun: privilege; plural noun: privileges

1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit;

dis·crim·i·na·tion
noun: discrimination; plural noun: discriminations

1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
"victims of racial discrimination"
synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship; More
sexism, chauvinism, misogyny, racism, racialism, anti-Semitism, heterosexism, ageism, classism, casteism;
historicalapartheid
"racial discrimination"
antonyms: impartiality
2.
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
"discrimination between right and wrong"

[VanillaRhapsody]

11. but YOU are ignoring the very FIRST Definition you provided

noun: privilege; plural noun: privileges

1.
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
"education is a right, not a privilege"
synonyms: advantage, benefit;

That group of people in this case are those NOT discriminated against.....they are privileged NOT to be discriminated against. They have "immunity" from this discrimination...therefore they ARE privileged. Like it or not.

[Coyotl]

12. Meanwhile, there are lots of ways people discriminate.

Why have as many different privilege groups as there are viewpoints? Discrimination is the problem, so focus on it rather than use vocabulary obfuscating the discrimination and defining it by the opposite state. I'd rather discuss privilege in the context of egalitarian idealism, in the material and life needs domains, areas more substantive in relation to equality of life. This is not to say that privilege and discrimination are unrelated, of course. But why call one the other?

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. You can talk about specific ones...Its in the definition discussing "groups"

are there misogynists? Do men suffer as victims of misogyny? No...therefore THEY have the privileged status...

etc etc. etc.

"American citizens are "privileged" to live in the richest country in the world" It is a privilege to live in this great country"


Get it?

[AverageJoe90]

28. "But why call one the other?" Exactly. nt

[AverageJoe90]

15. There we go, you got it, pretty much. nt

[quinnox]

34. Religious freedom does allow them to have their own views on this

That is kind of the botton line when it comes to any religious group and what their views happen to be.

[Wounded Bear]

35. Yes, but there is no obligation for the commowealth to enshrine their beliefs into law..

In fact, that would be a violation of others' religious freedom.

[JI7]

40. Does anyone remember after Prop 8 in California about the Restaurant in Los Angeles

there was a bar/restaurant which was popular among many gays. it turns out the owner had funded the anti gay measure and a boycott started.

the article made it seem like the owner was a victim for losing money . and even some on DU felt bad for her and said some crap about how people are hurting.

people just couldn't see the right of gays in the same way as most people who just go about their lives doing things like seeing who they want, marrying if they want, starting a business and making a living.

it was the gays who were horrible for boycotting and "making her lose money".

so this anti gay person who was just fine making money off of gay customers wanted to deny the people who helped her making a living the same rights as others.

[Sheepshank]

47. There are ads on local TV here in Utah

Where a woman is attemptin to explain that she was all "FOR" same sex marriage, until she found out that those partnerships had more benefits than other and that everyone else in the State would be left without certain 'rights' such as being able to speak out. It's misleading, vergin on lie, certainly isn't honest. It's annoying and close enough to a lie that the Sutherland Corporation should be ashamed of it's anti-golden rule, twisting the truth, self