General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSome thoughts on the new Pope, his influence in the world, and here at DU.
There have been many ops and posts about the new Pope here at DU, as there should be. He is very powerful and influential when it comes to the thoughts and direction of millions of people. His influence, through the Catholic Church, is the real reason opinions of him are so strong.
At this point, the new Pope has said many great things. If he continues in this direction he can truly have a positive impact on the way many of the Catholic Church followers conduct their business. These changes can slowly creep into the mentality of millions of people. It will not happen overnight, but can happen over decades.
That being said, the new Pope and the Catholic Church will continue to hold on to some of their abhorrent policies. I do think the new Pope is in some way trying to minimize the churches stance on how its followers are to judge people it believes to be sinners, but the policies will still be in place. Lets be clear, the church will continue its direction of holding me as a second class citizen for being a women. The church will continue to spread their hate toward gays. These things are not going to change with the new Pope.
I really just want to remind some of those promoting the new Pope to be careful in how adamant you are about how great he is. He is an extremely flawed man, yet much better than his predecessors. Please understand, if one is gay or a woman, there is no reason to respect the Pope or even recognize some of his positive rhetoric. I want to make that clear. For some of us, his hate for us as a person overcomes all else. That is a fair statement and needs to be understood.
Love and respect the members of our community. All of them. Understand that the church and the Pope promote and spread hate toward many of our friends here. That is not acceptable. While I do notice some of the Popes very positive rhetoric, I do not see the Catholic Church or its hierarchy as positive until they accept and welcome my friends who have done nothing wrong. I do not see the Pope as positive until he stops the Church from spreading hate and attacking people I love.
Please be careful and thoughtful when talking about a church and Pope that aggressively attacks our friends and loved ones.
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JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Leadership in showing compassion to the poor and ill. He is not one to enjoy the riches and therefore is to be more on the thrifty side of life.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)don't think an anti-women, anti-gay leader of a church where only men have power is "progressive."
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It would seem to me that calling the Pope non-progressive is based on knowledge of his beliefs and common sense. I guess someone could call him progressive when comparing him to the Rat. That is an extremely low bar. He is in no way progressive with respect to the way the word is used here. He is not progressive if his sights are set on you, and if his sights are set on good people doing nothing wrong, then he is not progressive to me.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)People are using Francis as a device to express their own homophobia and sexism. They have been given free reign to do so.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It matters little if the actions fail to match the words, just as long as they can sleep peacefully. 
Meet the new pope, same as the old pope.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Wow
snooper2
(30,151 posts)A couple months google+ set him off 
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)
Tikki
(14,556 posts)I get kind of weirded out when I read the pope threads because I know nothing about any church
let alone the catholic church except what I've read and heard about over my life time
from the media and catholics.
I have heard catholics hope for any kind of change and then they seem to
settle in the past for so little in changes….
I know you are correct..it isn't enough to tell people to be nice to others...the change
needs to be institutionalized in the church doctrine or whatever makes the church laws.
We can not leave parts of our existence on this earth behind.
Tikki
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)Seems like a logical place.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It was a post about proper procedure being met with a post about proper procedure. lol
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)It is much appreciated.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)however nothing is perfect be it religion or politicians or whatever. One must always take the bad with the good.
We all have our own issues.
I doubt anyone on this board is unaware of the churches stances on abortion or gay rights. The idea that someone praising what they see as good behavior in anything means that they endorse bad behavior from the same entity is binary thinking in its worst form.
While i would love to see the church change its stances on gays and abortion i just dont see how it can happen.
I will likely never be a part of organized religion because of it.
Having said that it is very easy to recognize the possitive changes this pope is making in many areas.
Good post
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You can not force us to take it. That bully bullshit is dated, done and being shipped back to the Vatican from whence it came.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)spew your own hatefull shit all you want.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)that these kinds of posts belong in Religion.
The thing is I understand why people who are invested in the Catholic Church - particularly Catholics, would promote this post and be excited by him. i don't believe that DUers who are excited about this pope are excited about him because he's anti-gay or anti-woman. I think people are excited about him because he's moving the catholic church closer to what they would like to see.
On the other hand if you are not invested in the Catholic Church; you don't care about it as an organization or even hate it as an organization there's really no reason this Pope should change your mind. While there might be incremental change (I am hopeful there will) it will come slowly - and if you are already down on the catholic church why wait?
There are two groups of people with fairly strong feelings; and no likely reapproachment between the two - the pope threads are just going to make people angry on both sides while accomplishing little - so they belong in religion forum, where those who care can go and fight over them if they choose to. Like all the other religious discussions.
Bryant
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)I appreciate your thoughtful post. Like you, while I applaud what appear to be steps by this this pope in the right dirction. I also agree with you that the Catholic Church has a long way to go.
On the other hand, nattering on about "Sky Daddies" and gleefully insinuating that progressive Catholics are dupes and pontificating that all Catholic clergymen are child molesters or protectors of child molesters as I've read all too often from the small but intense clique of Popebashers on this forum is not appropriate behavior either.
How about we look at Pope Francis as we would any other public figure, on an issue by issue basis. Criticise him when he deserves to be criticised; gay rights, women's rights, lack of effective action on pedophile priests and applaud him when he deserves to be applauded; economic inequality, peace, reforming the Vatican Bank.
Would that be too much to ask or does it always have to be my way or no way.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I can fully understand the "my way or no way" view. I don't just understand it, I think it is the correct attitude. We must understand that he and the church he leads truly hate many of the people we love or consider friends. Civil rights is an area where one need not distinguish one policy from the next. If the Pope continues the churches oppression and hatred toward women and gays, there is no reason for some to accept anything good from him.
I do recognize some of his positive rhetoric. When an op pops up praising him for said rhetoric, and a women or individual who the church oppresses due to sexual orientation comments in a negative manner, I will support them fully. Not try to corner them into saying something positive about a Pope who generates hate toward them in society.
I do like and appreciate your post. I would never use the term "sky daddies". Ever. But my op was not meant to be a tit for tat. I was trying to make it about the hate being promoted toward members of our community and the need for understanding that the hate thrown at them is not something that can be looked past.
There are many wonderful Catholic duers. They also take a drumming. Fact is, most of them do not walk around every day being oppressed and having the head of a major religion and one of the most powerful people in the world building hate against them. While I would never use the term "sky daddy" and think it should have no place here, it is in no way a form of oppression. The chances of you getting brutally beaten or harassed when leaving a bar because of your religion is slim to none. That is not the case for many in our community.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)the devil, that is the sort of thing Francis wants others to say about him. Or does he not follow the Golden Rule? He's an exception? So he gets to say my family wants to destroy God's plans but any criticism of him is too much for you?
The tone in this conversation is set by the rhetoric of Francis, Dolan, and the rest of the anti gay anti choice leadership that is also complicit in some of the most disgusting crimes imaginable against little children.
I would never be a part of a group that taught hate toward you. But I do not expect you to return that courtesy. That's it in a nutshell.
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)I also know many good people who have remained in the Church. I will not condemn the for it.
I suppose the difference is that I believe that the Catholic Church is redeemable and that perhaps, just perhaps, Pope Francis, who has softened the rhetoric just a little, could be an agent of that redemption.
You and others apparently feel that it is beyond redemption. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are wrong. Time will tell.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Calling on a person to stop attacking my family is not the same as feeling he is beyond redemption. The fact that you feel free to say that shit tells me so much.
Speak for yourself. I don't give a shit if the RCC finds 'redemption' whatever that means, I just want them to leave my people alone and stop claiming we are satanic in order to distract from their own legal problems. It is crass, transparent and they need to stop it. So sorry if that offends you.
BuddhaGirl
(3,602 posts)n/t
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
ananda
(28,858 posts)Pope Frank is a hundred times better than Pope Rat, but he still
has a long ways to go in the quest for full human rights for
everyone, which I suspect ties right in with divine rights.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)He knows that he has managed to make Catholics feel great about themselves while happily sweeping the disgusting scandals, outrageous greed and the terrible policies of their church under the carpet. Happy days for people who want to believe they can keep their religion and feel guilt no more...happy days for the Catholic church $$$$$$$ and no more pesky problems with the press!
The only power he has is to promote the church and he is doing a super job.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I'd also like to mention that none of the Pope boosters seem to consider the statistically probable possibility that some DUers have been victims of clerical abuse. They sound as if they excuse it all.
I'd like them to list for me counterpart persons, other people who are anti choice and anti gay, tied up in child abuse scandals, that they cheer for when they say something good. If it is only Francis, then they are just self serving creatures, serving themselves at the expense of others.
I also wonder what devoted members of other religions think when only one religion is allowed to promote itself here. Is that even fair? It is like a religious test and that's nasty.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Not going to leave a thought or opinion because it speaks for itself without an opinion from me.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Well said as always, bluenorthwest.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)The Pope is the lipstick. The Dogma is the pig. That is what I first thought of as a former Catholic.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)The proper role of any spiritual organization is to counteract Mammon, not to follow a business model as the modern "megachurches" do.
I don't expect him to overturn the patriarchal culture, but for a billion people to get an anti-capitalist message from the top is no small thing.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)... told that they are equal in every way. That they have the right to self-determination, including reproductive rights, that would be a huge step towards alleviating poverty and misery around the globe. Capitalism, oppression and bigotry walk hand in hand.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)but to move the needle just a bit is good. Building a post-patriarchal civil society from the depredations of Capitalism won't be easy, and may not happen at all. But it won't happen in a spiritual vacuum, in my opinion.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)One whose dogmas oppress and keep millions of women and children in poverty and despair? Perhaps if women were included as full partners in the battle those walls would come tumbling down a lot faster.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)They own some of the most expensive high end commercial real estate that exists, they collect rent from banks and luxury goods purveyors, billions of dollars worth of nearly every major city. They own vast amounts of financial instruments, stocks, bonds, you name it, they have tons of it.
Francis is the head of a very wealthy organization that is run like a business, to pretend otherwise is simply not grounded in reality at all. They are the most mega of mega churches. They are active capitalists.
So don't talk to me about Mammon until they sell the Bulgari store.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)My op was about more than that and how the conversation is conducted here and elsewhere in society. Your post is actually what I am talking about. At no point did I or have I said that his positive rhetoric shouldn't be recognized. What needs to be understood by all is that the hate of this Pope and the hierarchy of the church is so great toward some that their thoughts on the Pope are fair and real. Their rights are our rights and this Pope cannot be touted as "good" when he promotes hatred.
Two points:
1) You freely admit this Pope has great influence. "for a billion people to get an anti-capitalist message from the top is no small thing."
2) Imagine how you would feel if he was using this influence to generate hate and turn society against you.
Point number two is why it is more than acceptable for many to never recognize this Pope as positive in any way. It is why you won't see me in many threads fawning over the new Popes rhetoric. These people he is attacking are our friends and neighbors.