those crazy feminists stuck in the 1960's who think sexism is still a major deal

[geek tragedy]

Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:42 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-modern-ads-are-even-more-sexist-than-their-mad-men-era-counterparts-2012-4?op=1

We as a society have come a long way, baby.

old:



new:


old:



new:


Glad that's settled.

edited to improve unhelpful title

[L0oniX]

1. In coming.

[Renew Deal]

3. lol

[loli phabay]

22. lol stand from under

[geek tragedy]

34. so far, no creeps have defended the modern ads, which is refreshing! nt

[Roy Rolling]

47. Famously said

As a comedian famously said, "you can't fix stupid"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. third and fourth wave feminists think sexism is a big deal too

but dont believe that ignoring racism/classism/homophobia in our discourse about sexism is inclusive to non-white, non-straight, non-middle class women.

[geek tragedy]

4. maybe a few dinosaurs think that ignoring racism/classisim/homophobia

is okay, but I have not encountered them

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. well you specified second wave feminism and that really is the major bone of contention

between 2nd and 3rd waves.

[geek tragedy]

21. that was the major bone of contention.

that battle has largely been resolved in favor of intersectionalism.

Certainly there was homophobia and especially transphobia, but that critique has taken hold and the transphobes are few and far between on the feminist front.

bigger dispute is between "that's just empowering/humor" vs those disparaged as 'sex negative' etc.

the former group still have a chance to be considered cool and relevant amongst the Lady Gaga/etc crowd who say "I'm not a feminists because I don't hate men."

[boston bean]

7. Well, it's difficult to discuss it all when it's denied by so many that sexism even exists.

You will also see denials of what one group feels is classism/racism/homophobia.

So, I'm not sure that is what is making all of this such a tough issue for DU. I don't think it's one group discussing a certain aspect, that's for sure.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i think it's hard to prevent infighting when one begins a thread

implying that only one wave thinks sexism is a big deal, whereas in reality all feminists believe that sexism is a big deal.

[geek tragedy]

10. a recent thread was dedicated to the idea that young women

don't label themselves as feminist because they think yesterday's battles are over, and that sexism has been pretty much defeated for decades now.

"the past isn't prologue. it's not even past."

[tkmorris]

14. Sure but

It was never suggested that everyone except second wave feminists thought "think yesterday's battles are over, and that sexism has been pretty much defeated for decades now. "

For some reason in your OP you seemed to suggest that it is only second wave feminists who recognize that sexism still exists, excluding feminists of other flavors. Seemed odd when I read it and seems odd now.

[redqueen]

16. It strikes a chord with me, mostly because on DU,

we so regularly see certain people insisting that only (old, prude, etc.) second-wave feminists have a problem with objectification, hypersexualization, sexist 'humor', etc.

Many of these ads would be defended as humor.

[bettyellen]

19. and many here insist "I find it funny" should be the only litmus test…..

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. IKR

[geek tragedy]

18. '2nd wave' is used much as a term of disparagement

to portray feminists fighting yesterday's battles, wherein opposition to objectification is scorned as prudish suppression of 'empowerment', etc etc.

there's some doubt as to whether there's a coherent third wave--if one is talking about intersecionality, then the third wave did happen but the second wavers pretty much adapted out of necessity to be relevant.

the bigger schism seems to be between the 'sex-positive' feminists who have a more libertarian bent on things.

I imagine you would find some 'sex positive' types who would find some of the modern ads 'empowering forms of expression'

I mean, there are feminist defenses of 50 Shades of Gray . . .

[stevenleser]

27. Once again, + infinity. nt

[redqueen]

13. There's confusion about second- and third-wave feminism.

Many identify third-wave feminism with an effort to make it more inclusive.

Many identify it with the so-called idea of 'sex positivity'.

Some younger feminists have associated third-wave feminism with the acceptance of objectification, the commodification of women's bodies and sexuality, etc., and many of them reject the label on those grounds, and identify as second-wave feminists solely on that basis. None reject it based on a desire to exclude women of color.

Edit to add I'm referring to feminists IRL and across the net (the femosphere?), not on DU.

[stevenleser]

26. + infinity. nt

[snooper2]

5. That poll thread wasn't an invatation LOL

But since you got everyone's attention...check this out

[In_The_Wind]

8. That's the problem ... nothing is settled.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. Magazine ads is your barometer for women's rights?

If so, then it proves our point. In the 50's a woman who was a divorcee was shunned. Today, not so much. In the 50's if a woman lived to pursue a career in banking instead of finding a guy to marry, she was judged.

The zeitgeist has certainly changed re: women in society.

[geek tragedy]

12. you don't think women who pursue careers and don't marry get judged? nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

15. Far less than decades ago--even the 80's

It's not even close. If your goal is to root out every traditionalist's feeling about women as primarily wives and child bearing, nurturing mothers...good luck with that.

I'm focused on creating a climate where all men and women can find freedom to express themselves how they wish.

That includes not looking down on women who choose to stay at home and raise children even if the family consciously sacrifices financially to do so.

For the record, my wife is a graduate-level educated career woman, and we were childless for 14 years of our marriage.

[bettyellen]

17. "proves our point"- what was the point? and who do you claim to be speaking for?

[redqueen]

20. It's more than just the ads themselves. It's the societal values they reflect.

One advertised a contest for a trip to find a Russian bride, and showed a blonde woman scrubbing the floor. The text of the ad only makes it worse.

I'm sure many here would defend it as humor. In reality it reflects many serious issues (unfair division of household labor, exploitation of impoverished women, etc.)

[JustAnotherGen]

56. +1000

[riqster]

48. Advertisements are intended to mirror and exploit current attitudes.

That is how a successful ad works. So yeah, they are relevant indicators.

[woolldog]

89. what do these indicate?

[riqster]

90. They indicate that women can, by acting and appearing as men wish them to, have the men they want.

Which still, of course, leaves the men in charge.

[frazzled]

51. Portrayal in the media is always a barometer

There have been entire films made about the portrayal of blacks (Ethnic Notions) and gays (Celluloid Closet) in the movies and other popular-culture media, and these films were instrumental in changing those stereotypes, thus leading to advancements in opportunities and changes in attitudes. (A project that is never completed.)

But to my knowledge, there has never been a film made regarding prevalent negative stereotypes about women in Hollywood or advertising. There should be.

[redqueen]

58. Miss Representation?

[frazzled]

62. Yes ... thanks for pointing out

But the fact that it's not as well known as the other films mentioned were in their day (the representation of blacks and gays in the media was a big part of the political discussion of the 1990s) shows just how difficult this issue of women's rights and the representation of women is. Sometimes I wonder if it will ever be resolved. Even to bring it up ... on a supposedly progressive board ... generates rude and dismissive remarks. Sigh.

[redqueen]

64. Yes. Excellent points.

Sigh, indeed.

[hunter]

23. Yeah, swell. The "whites only" drinking fountains are gone too.

Progress!



Nobody's supposed to notice how the wealthy white men took the nice "whites only" fountain away to their gated community, removed the "coloreds only" fountain, and replaced it with a leaky faucet and a rusty tin can.

And then they set us at war among ourselves with posts like yours.

Women still have it worse than men in this society no matter how many bitter people come to DU burned by nasty ex-wives and girlfriend.

Quantitatively, the number of women harmed by our twisted patriarchal society and certain men still far exceeds the number of men harmed by women.

We still have a problem, baby...

[geek tragedy]

24. It seems we agree on all of this, so not

sure why you feel the discussion is harmful.

[redqueen]

28. I'm to the point where I just dismiss complaints of a so-called 'war'.

Call it whatever you like, but ignoring these issues is the opposite of helping. (Goes for classism, racism, etc. - but far fewer complain about discussions involving inequalities of class or race).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. I think there is an issue with how you titled your OP

perhaps reconsider the OP title.

Then, perhaps the waves will become an ocean.



That would be nice to see, I think.

[geek tragedy]

30. ya, point taken, changed nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. waves ... ashore ...

sea .... beyond ....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. "no matter how many bitter people come to DU burned by nasty ex-wives and girlfriend."

May not even be "ex" in some cases.

[sufrommich]

25. I'm trying to imagine how many "lols" and popcorn

smilies would be tolerated in a thread pointing out racism in advertising.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. when

Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2014, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

c*mguzzl*r gets 23 recs and makes it to the greatest page at the same time an OP about a woman in the hospital from having to drink boiling water because her abuser demanded it .... well ...

I think we will be tolerating a lot of ... "lols" ... and ... popcorn ... on DU3

[geek tragedy]

33. also, a story about a racist lynching would not be met by 'white rights activists'

attacking the OP as either a liar or a reverse-racist.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. agreed.

[redqueen]

39. WHAT. THE ...

Was that thread hidden? Auto removed?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. it got 23 Recs last time I looked

should I post the link here or shoot it to you via PM ... ?

[geek tragedy]

43. pm me too if you decide not to post the link here

[sufrommich]

79. Could someone send me a link too? nt

[KitSileya]

53. Hey, could you PM me the link too? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. sure, look for incoming.

[treestar]

67. Popcorn comments are obnoxious

The "I'm too superior to discuss this" statement they make is annoying.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Do you find it odd that those sexist ads are now used to market to women?

Why is it that sexist imagery is used to sell women's purses and shoes?

[geek tragedy]

40. disappointing but not odd

sexism would die within a generation or two if only men internalized it

[geek tragedy]

42. one of those experiences we men not only have never had

but have never had to worry about having (with perhaps very rare exceptions)

thanks for adding the perspective

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. Mad Men did a storyline about this. I thought it was very well done ...

The gay man storyline and the woman who took a hit for the team as it were. The gay man did not and was horrified and subsequently fired as a result iirc.

[Sheldon Cooper]

52. I remember that.

Sal, the gay man, refused to have sex with Lee Garner Jr. of Lucky Strike. The rebuffed Lee then demanded that Sterling Cooper fire him. As LS was by far the firm's biggest client, they couldn't take that risk of refusing. So, Don Draper let Sal go.

Joan took one for the team in order to get the Jaguar account, but she took advice from Lane Pryce and demanded a partnership with 5% share. She managed to secure her future, at least.

[sufrommich]

78. Lee Garner Jr. was one of the most despicable

characters on Mad Men,I say "was" because I hope he's been written out permanently.

[sufrommich]

81. You shouldn't feel shame,it wasn't you who

did anything wrong.

[Half-Century Man]

45. Is it just me?

What is vogue/vanity trying to say? The image brings to mind OWS beat downs, why are they trying to glam that up?

[JustAnotherGen]

57. More about mind control

Disassociation, kitten programming, etc. etc. It's not just THIS image in vogue -it's everywhere.

They are symbols and images meant to spark docile behavior . . .

Take a look at all the mickey mouse ears and 'kitten' (sex) personas big stars are put in - it's very very creepy. From human, to animal, to 'thing' -


Naomi Wolf wrote of this in The Beauty Myth 20 years ago . . . as a result - I've never again purchased anything from Guess - or any manufacturer that uses this kind of imagery.

[Half-Century Man]

59. I must have issues

If you step on my neck, I'm biting your ankle.

[JustAnotherGen]

60. Now THAT

Is an ad that would convince me to buy a pair of blue jeans!

[redqueen]

63. No, you just aren't socialized the same way.

There are individual exceptions, but societally, socialization ensures these patterns continue.

[Kurovski]

69. I get that. That's a great explanation.

I've wondered before about that kind of photography.

So much crap can be hidden by the veneer of "super-chic" or edgy. Being jaded considered as a societal "plus" can get things under the radar.

[JustAnotherGen]

80. Google Terry Richarson some time

That guy is creepy - yikes!

[Kurovski]

83. His stuff looks pretty plastic and shallow. . Even for fashion.

The Miley Cyrus event...you had an example of a child kept as one image, then her breaking out as another to leave it behind.

If she could have acted in Shakespeare with skill, she could have left Hanna Montana behind! Alas

I guess she wasn't ready to retire, or enter real estate.

Acting business is brutal to adults, let alone kids. Stars used to steer their children clear of it as best they could.

[slor]

50. Wow...

I have not looked in a fashion magazine in a long time, but those are offensive. It does not make it better, but those have to be the euro versions.

On edit: I just saw at least one of the new ads is From a euro version.

[ryan_cats]

55. They say sex sells

They say sex sells so does apparently, misogyny. I don't even know what they are selling? The cops boot on that women's neck, WTH??? Police brutality selling something, I shudder to think what the target audience is.

[redqueen]

61. Check out her analysis of the euphemism 'sex sells'.

[Kurovski]

65. Everyone is free at any moment to join the new focus on reforming religion,

which is chiefly where all of the sex-phobia and sexism derives. It's the wellspring, backed-up by God. Maybe that and the economics of the 1% will be where the fourth wave comes in?

Third wave moved its focus to economics, homophobia and race. Some second-wave folks have the same prejudices as their age peer-groups. (we saw that notoriously acted-out here on DU as gays and the transgender community were bashed as others continued to support their ventures here on DU.) Very second wave attitude that saw much push-back.

Having said all that, I hated those "Brats" dolls something fierce. You used to remove their FEET to change their shoes. Gross. I would have refused my kid one. Super-sexualized PLUS implied dismemberment.

See ya.

[geek tragedy]

66. atheists can be every bit as misogynistic as any other group nt

[redqueen]

71. Yep. e.g. Richard Dawkins, The Amazing Atheist, etc.

[Kurovski]

72. It Still is ingrained in societies around the world.

Thousands of years of the conditioning. I guess it will take more consciousness-raising.

Jimmy Carter gets it. He "resigned" from his church for the misogyny. he's ahead of the curve. It's where we're headed and the Pope knows it.

--geek, when you write a "nyah, nyah, na-nyah-nyah" title on a OP, we can see what you are trying to do.

[geek tragedy]

73. religion doesn't create culture, it springs from it nt

[Kurovski]

76. Not thousands of years later.

It does not renew itself every year. It's the power that holds it in place. It's inarguable because it's from God. That is the attitude, the fear, what has to be dissolved.

We can make all the true and interesting points we want about what we see in culture, but that is ultimately powerless compared to "God."


Smarties at the top figured out a way to control, divide and conquer.

If we don't fight the top, we're fighting ourselves. we're spinning wheels. We are powerless alone.



See ya.

[redqueen]

70. Patriarchy is the wellspring from which the misogyny in religion sprang.

So feel free at any moment to join the new focus on smashing the patriarchy.

[Kurovski]

74. control of wealth is where the societal patriarchy springs from

So, anytime.

Their is nothing inherently bad about fathers. "Patriarchs"

The system hates everyone who isn't part of their top, and they make sure shit rolls downhill.

[redqueen]

75. 'Patriarchy' is not synonymous with 'fathers'.

Patriarchy is inherently evil.

[bettyellen]

84. oh dear, you need to study up on patriarchy a bit. it has little to do with fathers. Cute guess!

but kind of mind-blowing you would have all these suggestions when not really understanding the issue, bless your heart.

[Kurovski]

85. And you are absolutely adorable, my dear.

even while glancing down ones nose. Tres charmant.

But of course, we can both feel free to ignore all the rest. Time will march on without either of us.

[bettyellen]

86. So cute of you to suggest to feminists that your pet issues are more significant, when you are

pretty obviously confused about feminism. You'd be SHOCKED at how often dudes hope to derail women into doing their bidding. It's always a laugh riot.

[Kurovski]

87. Tra la, how gay our time together has been!

How are things at the top of the old Kyriarchy?

See ya.

[bettyellen]

88. I know, I know, your concerns are sooooo much more important than anything discussed here. LOL.

Thanks for dropping in to "explain" this to us. I am sure you haven't noticed every single conversation about feminism is supposed to accommodate bullshit derailment - in the form of "helpful suggestions" like this.
Um, no thanks, and perhaps you should find a conversation you don't need to try and disrupt? You;d even find some of the same people here, because we multitask! You should try it! That would be a novel approach.

[BainsBane]

68. The feminists aren't the ones stuck in the 60s

[jakeXT]

77. The last one is Bella Borsodi, he once got into trouble for his shoe cutouts

I've never heard of him before

http://www.belaborsodi.com/editorial

You make no secret about the messages or statements you make through your images. You were even once attacked by feminist groups for a series called “Foot Fetish” for V Magazine.
http://treatsmagazine.com/the-psychological-photographer-bela-borsodi-kate-dellaquila/

http://www.iainclaridge.co.uk/blog/1088

[Kurovski]

82. Looks like a serial killer's fantasy.

it reminds me of how it was claimed that ad images hid messages in photos about death and innapropriate sex, etc, to create anxiety in a person on a subconscious level.

selling a product to then somehow "relieve" that anxiety, I guess.

There, the anxiety is right on display.