Why do disagreements here

[cilla4progress]

so often devolve into insults?

[MineralMan]

1. That's a great question.

I don't have an answer, though.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. Because it's easy when you are sitting behind a soda-(or beer/wine)speckled computer screen...

...to be truly horrid to other people.

[pacalo]

66. Now you may add "iced tea" speckled computer screen...

[quinnox]

3. you have been here since 2004, and are now asking this?

Come on, there are always jerks and the like around and on the internet, its the nature of the beast.

[Kurovski]

22. OMG. The old message boards from the late 90s!

Like a nuthouse.

Even now, comment sections can be outrageous, until patrolled.

DU is actually better than most on internet discourse... as I wander hither, tither and yon

[quinnox]

24. Yep, DU is like the queens tea party compared to other places on the internet

[JNelson6563]

32. No harm in setting the bar higher than just above the dregs of humanity.

Just sayin'.

[PasadenaTrudy]

4. I think

there are just a lot of immature people on this site. And other sites, for that matter.

[cilla4progress]

5. I just find it disappointing

When I'm enjoying a robust debate, after a few replies...BOOM! There it goes!

[Mojorabbit]

26. Thread disruption is why that happens sometimes

There is a group of people here that are very good at it.

[hfojvt]

40. maybe that just means

you were winning.

Many people though, do not like, and do not enjoy debate.

Further, there are many beliefs involved. Many people do NOT just believe "X is true" at the same time they ALSO believe "only the morally defective or wilfully ignorant do NOT believe X is true."

Especially if they "learned" something in college.

Or the may just believe "X is true" so strongly that it OFFENDS them when somebody doubts the validity of X.

Also, "ideas on earth are badges of friendship. Friends agree with friends in order to express friendship. Enemeies disagree with enemies in order to express enmity."

Disagreeing with ME, and especially with my TEAM, makes you one of the "others". A troll. A PINO. A heretic. Or, in my personal favorite (that I use to describe myself as others see me) an "antidisestablishmentarianist turd".

[FSogol]

6. Your Mom dresses you funny.

Just kidding, most innocuous insult I could think up.

No idea, but suspect that it has something to do with one of the following:

1. Anonymous nature of the internet
2. Posters treating discussions on DU as life or death
3. Poster's worldview is so important to their identity that they must attack whoevers opinion differs slightly, even though that poster probably agrees on the majority of other issues.

[JNelson6563]

33. I think you've got it.

Well said.

[Nye Bevan]

7. It has gotten noticeably better since the "5 hides and you're in the naughty chair"

Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2014, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)

rule was implemented.

Even before that, DU has been one of the most civil discussion boards on the Internet.

[cilla4progress]

8. Cool!

Any strategies that work for you, when you encounter such bluster?

[Nye Bevan]

17. They key is to not respond in kind.

Because then you yourself may end up with a hidden post on your record. Biting sarcasm is far better if you want to retaliate, and will never get hidden by a jury.

[Barack_America]

9. It's an Internet-wide phenomenon, from what I've seen.

And probably a society-wide problem.

We're all increasingly bitter, broke and angry and too willing to attack each other over it.

[OnionPatch]

21. I agree that it's an internet thing, not just DU.

I once had someone call me a pretty nasty name on a genealogy website, for crying out loud. To this day I'm wondering what I did to deserve such a vitriolic response to a fairly benign comment.

I think it's the anonymity factor. It's the same way people are rude and nasty and call people names when they're hidden in their cars, driving. Put the same people face to face and watch them tone it down.

[Rex]

10. Because some people on here don't want to discuss anything

they want to fight and call each other names.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. ...and then pull out their handy-dandy notebook to write down everything that happened,

backing it up with screenshots and links for the next time they meet. It's disturbing.

[Rex]

14. Yes with charts on their wall from the last time so and so offended them

over such and such. The red crayon means bad, the blue one means good etc..

[JNelson6563]

37. Yes, I fear you are 100%correct!

I can't imaging having the time, or inclination for that matter, to be so very, very involved in an on-line forum. Like you say, it's disturbing.

Julie

On self-delete~~Double post!

[pipi_k]

50. hah!

I knew someone like that on a discussion board dedicated to anxiety disorders.

She was an unemployed lawyer, which probably explains her penchant for remembering old shit.

I swear she had dossiers and file cabinets full of information on people she didn't like.


One of her favorite tricks was to post a question worded so everyone knew what reply she expected, then when people did reply, she would be all nice and friendly to the ones who told her what she wanted to hear (specifically mentioning them by name), and ignore anyone who didn't. As in, "Thank you J, M, G, and Q" instead of "Thank you to all who responded".

What a piece of work.

Anyway, she could dredge up the most trivial details about conversations that happened months...even years...before.

[pacalo]

67. Have you noticed how many arguments begin with a reply that almost always begins with...

"So, you believe..." or "So, you are saying..."

What follows is usually a horrific twisting of your words or the twisting of the point you were trying to make.

[FSogol]

38. DU is junior high school.

Think I'll sneak out and drink Schaefer beer and play Risk or D&D with my friends.

[PowerToThePeople]

11. Because 3rd way/NSA lovers have no winning logical/ethical/moral argument n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

54. Exhibit "A"

[1StrongBlackMan]

59. Whoosh ...

that's the sound of a comment sailing over head.

[snooper2]

68. I wondered how far down this thread I would have to read

before it happened

I love this place

[1StrongBlackMan]

69. But I guess we're getting better ...

I remember a time, not too long ago, when you would have only had to look at the second post out the gate.

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Because people are so often assholes?

Oops, I just did it myself.

[cilla4progress]

15. hahaha

[frazzled]

16. Because actual discussion doesn't really attract interest

Sort of like the phenomenon of television. high-toned documentaries about a serious subject don't get watched much. Mud wrestling, yay!

Last time I tried to post a thoughtful (what I thought was a discussion-opening) post, I got the following response: ... "Just BS from a person who thinks the government is always right, even when they are wrong. Your argument sounds like those used to justify apartheid, slavery, prohibition, anti-civil rights...pure crap. etc. Flame away."

So I pretty much think it's only worth posting insults.

[kelliekat44]

28. And honest debate might change one's mind. nt

[frazzled]

31. Well, I think it's pretty impossible to change people's minds

at least on Internet sites. People are here because they have strong convictions to begin with, and short of some overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they're not going to change those opinions. The Internet allows us to seek out only what we wish to see or hear about.

Witness the "ignore" button here: it allows people to filter out everything but what they want to hear and who they want to hear it from. That certainly doesn't promote discussion. Try posting a link to some long or complex explanatory article in a post: people won't read it if they think it contradicts their previously held beliefs.

We live in a culture of self-perpetuating beliefs: we seek out only the news and analysis we want to hear.

All that's left, then, is calling the "other" opinion holders names, as loudly and cleverly as we can. It's like a 5th-grade playground.

[Bobbie Jo]

51. So true.....

Try posting a link to some long or complex explanatory article in a post: people won't read it if they think it contradicts their previously held beliefs.

And then will go on to make some sort of vapid comment about "blue links."

[hrmjustin]

18. It does get tiresome after awhile.

[HughBeaumont]

19. For the threads I'm usually on . . .

. . . it comes down to the simple fact that the crowd giggling and giddy at the notion of Creative Destruction and laissez-faire economics have no place on a progressive board.

You want to shit on labor and be glib and dismissive of it's future, go to . . . any other internet comment board where corporate water is carried and the conquered are divided. We support workers and try to come to solutions here. If life doesn't get more fair pretty damned fast, none of us are going to have much of one.

[LanternWaste]

20. There's a place in the world for the angry young man...

"There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl
and he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man..."
(Billy Joel)



Seems like the clearest explanation I've heard to date... and DU seems to have a prodigious share of Angry Young Men. How many times have we read the tired bumper-sticker; "if you're not angry, then you haven't been paying attention!!!" as though anger is the only rational response to an obstacle.

[freshwest]

63. Well said. Also comes from media where outrage and anger substitute for compassion and respect. n/t

[In_The_Wind]

23. Because grudges are carried from thread to thread.

[shenmue]

25. I know

It gets tiresome.

[Fumesucker]

27. I'm getting a distinct odor of elderberries here n/t

[Zorra]

35. You smell 'em too?

Is it just a coincidence?

[oldhippie]

29. Because that's what crude, uneducated people do ....

... when they can't come up with a reasoned, cogent argument. And, I am sad to say, and should come as no surprise to long timers here, there are quite a number of crude, uneducated people here on DU, distinctly lacking in skills of rhetoric and argumentation.

[JoePhilly]

30. Some OPs are shoting for that exactly outcome.

They structure their OPs specifically to generate outrage, and then act surprised when the outrage they incited, leads to personal attacks.

The outrage is the goal.

[B Calm]

34. I was just told by another he was tired of my bullshit. So one

insult like that usually will follow with a return insult.

[Beearewhyain]

39. Because more often than not

When we disagree with someone it is very easy to move from rational argument from two perspectives to moral arguments. When we move to the moral perspective there is the "good and right" side and the "evil and incorrect" side. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with "us" is not only wrong but they are morally flawed to the point of possessing inherently "evil" qualities in their entirety. And it's never wrong to insult evil people...right?

Sad, but I think that is part of why it can be so easy to get personally insulting on what, most of the time, should be an exercise in examining and exploring differing perspectives. Also, you know, the internet is where reason goes to die so there's that too.

[Vattel]

41. because you're an idiot!!!

just kidding

[Vashta Nerada]

46. No no no.

It's "because your an idiot!!!". You need to use the wrong form of "you're".

[Vattel]

47. good point

[lpbk2713]

42. It's the anonymity of the internet.

Those who want to can hide behind their keyboard and be just as obnoxious
as they please, knowing they will never have to look anyone in the eye after
they have insulted them or treated them rudely. Civility was one of the first
casualties after the inception of the internet.

[MineralMan]

53. Internet anonymity is mostly mythological.

Truly.

[AngryAmish]

65. One message board I attend mandates real names

It is very civil. No one swears.

There are some very prominent people in the semi-obscure field we discuss.

And it is also a bit like Fight Club where you don't talk about it outside that board.

[hfojvt]

43. I blame Arthur Dent

he's a kneebiter.

[Fumesucker]

44. One word

Usenet.

[Vashta Nerada]

45. Great question.

I've (and everyone else who has ever been online) noticed that, instead of discussing the issue(s) or subject at hand, people hurl personal insults instead. Maybe it's because hurling insults are easier than thinking through items in a discussion?

If you can figure out an answer, do let me know.

[Orsino]

48. Welcome to the Internet.

Enjoy your stay!

Edit: my own question would be, "Why do arguments here so rarely devolve into insults?" Seems better on DU than elsewhere. Seriously.

[cilla4progress]

49. But I am not dissing disagreements - or even passionate arguing -

Only insulting people for their opinions, when they are different from one's own.

[cilla4progress]

52. Wow...this thread

certainly set off a shitstorm!

Scratched an itch, I guess.

[laundry_queen]

55. I think there are many reasons

A lot of people haven't learned to debate properly. It's not like they teach it in school anymore. So when they are losing the debate, they get angry and start with the insults.

Or, sometimes the people calling names are disruptors.

Or, sometimes people are just immature and this is how they think people should argue

Or sometimes people are trying to look 'cool' in front of other posters by putting some posters down,

Or sometimes the people calling names are so sure their position is 'right' that any questioning of that position threatens their world view, so they attack.

Or sometimes people get so frustrated with posters who are clearly not debating in good faith, (for example, those who are pulling republican debating tactics by picking a word out of a well reasoned argument and trying to argue that word, and avoiding the actual topic at hand) that it's hard to contain the anger.

Also, the added layer of anonymity the internet offers makes it easier to let insults fly with no repercussions.

Oh, and I don't think pointing out a particular poster's posting pattern = insult. Some people claim ad hominem when that happens, but it's almost always relevant to the discussion.

It happens. It does make debate on DU more difficult but it's not really that different from any other internet forum.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. anonymity. nt

[spin]

57. Because when many people find that they are losing a debate ...

they resort to the old tactic of insulting their opponent.

When a poster insults me, I know I am winning and laugh.

When I find that I am losing the debate, I politely admit that the other poster has made good points. I then reconsider my opinion and if necessary change it.

[steve2470]

58. The ability to "agree to disagree" is a wonderful thing

I've done it several times here. I know my mind is made up and so is theirs. There's no point in butting heads any further and allowing discussion to devolve into insults.

I think the phenomenon you've observed has been fully explained upthread, especially the anonymity explanation.

[treestar]

60. Simple. There are a number of assholes here.

[jeff47]

61. Because it's easier to hurl insults than to read and understand

someone else's opinion.

So a large percentage of people just skip reading the argument and just assume you are satan.

[B Calm]

62. BINGO!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. Because people often identify with their opinions.

So when somebody disagrees it's as if their very identity
is threatened. Therefore, my opinion is that
we are not our opinions.