the people who defended the NSA most vociferously, are those

[cali]

eagerest to laud the President for reining it in. That's fairly amusing considering the position they took that the NSA wasn't doing anything wrong or egregious. It just goes to show what we already know: For more than a few folks, it's all about the President and how he can do no wrong.

Yes, I find this mentality disturbing and pathetic. It goes far beyond supporting the President and into the realm of cult of adoration and that's just not healthy.

[Fumesucker]

1. And awaaaay we gooooooo!

[Glassunion]

40. .

[tjwash]

161. ..

[ProSense]

2. There

"the people who defended the NSA most vociferously, are those eagerest to laud the President for reining it in. "

...should be credit where credit is due.

Senator Leahy's statement on the President’s NSA reforms
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347529

Udall, Wyden, Heinrich Statement Reacting to President's Speech on NSA, Surveillance Reform
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347077

What's curious is how angry people are that reforms are being made.

[JDPriestly]

32. I want to see what the "reforms" turn out to be.

Those that Obama announced do not protect our Fourth, First or other Amendment rights. They are inadequate. If Obama is suggesting that we amend the Bill of Rights to allow the NSA spying, he should say so.

Paul Revere was a rebel, claiming the right to free speech. He was not functioning as an NSA spy collecting and analyzing the metadata of the supposedly free American people.

Obama's proposals are not nearly enough to protect our constitutional rights to privacy. No way.

You have to have a warrant to access the information that the NSA has been taking without even letting us know about it. That is very clear in the Constitution.

[ProSense]

37. Here's a

good chart: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347726

[Katashi_itto]

54. We really need your hourly posts again. This time how well the Presidents doing to rein in the NSA

[Bobbie Jo]

70. Almost as much as we need

your up to the minute ankle biting to keep us on our toes.

[Aerows]

80. It's fascinating how you show up

and diss people when they point out the truth. Fascinating, but not compelling.

Yet you can't show up and actually perform to moderate any forum you show up for.

[Katashi_itto]

92. Well Said!

[Aerows]

96. :)

Harsh, but someone needs to lay it on the blade, occasionally.

[Bobbie Jo]

104. lol

Side talk, really.

Good lord, it's like 5th grade in here.

[Aerows]

110. Adults are talking

Adults that are actually around when conversations come up. Unlike you. You know, steady, reliable, not only there when it is convenient.

[Bobbie Jo]

117. Right...

But they appear to be downthread.

btw...I'll show up when and where I damn well please. Deal.

[Aerows]

119. Then don't take on responsibilities

that you can't fulfill. Deal.

[Bobbie Jo]

123. Who the everloving fuck

appointed you to den mother here?

Good lord.

[Aerows]

124. Hi

I fulfill my obligations. Apparently not doing so is a sore spot with you.

[Bobbie Jo]

128. Yeah

I don't care much for you much either, but I don't look for your posts to bring it to your attention.

Tacky is as tacky does.

[Aerows]

132. Who said I was looking for yours?

It could be that others have been complaining about you, but no, of course, I was the one since I confronted you. I just don't get concerned by confrontation, so I spoke up. Feel free to take this up in PM.

[Bobbie Jo]

138. Nah.

You all do your little passive-aggressive gossiping amongst yourselves.

[Aerows]

140. LOL! n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

100. Meow....

I'm diss'ing a diss'er.... so what?

Unlike others.....I'm not into giving a play by play of my day to day....

Your concern for what I "show up" for, is a little too busybody-ish for my tastes.

Seriously? please find another subject.

[Aerows]

111. You are so intensely cool

I have a handful of subjects that I pursue ardently. I'm not certain you could pursue one without dropping it at the last minute, dear.

[Number23]

185. Beyond tacky. Bringing stuff from other threads to slam people

But I have no doubt that if Bobbie Jo brought up your rabies bite into this thread you'd be screaming bloody murder.

[Aerows]

188. I love Australia

I hope you have a lovely day, my friend.

[Number23]

192. Hope you've got lots and lots of Bactine around.

[Aerows]

194. I'm under the influence of rabies shots

and a bunch of antibiotics, a tetanus shot and I have no idea what Bactine is, but it is probably less harsh.

[Number23]

197. Damn. That explains a lot

Rabies shots must be a bitch to the cerebral cortex.

[Aerows]

198. Nobody wants the battery of shots

I know you are implying I'm an idiot, but in all honesty, nobody wants this crap.

[Aerows]

203. In case you were wondering, I'm on number 3

I couldn't keep food down, until today, 15 days later, but I'm rocking since I can keep food down. Thanks for asking.

[Number23]

206. Are the rabies shot going to be your excuse for all of the personal attacks you've launched in this

thread? And now your multiple responses to me on things I haven't asked or care about? If so, carry on.

Though you weren't the only one in this thread attacking other DUers repeatedly and for seemingly no reason whatsoever, I guess this is the manner by which you've chosen to "heal" yourself which truly says a hell of alot about you. So go ahead and get it all out of your system. Literally.

[Aerows]

207. I think you get sensitive for a whole lot more reasons

than me attacked by a raccoon. Yes, it messes me up.

[Rex]

276. That is all he knows how to do, ignore him.

You will never get any kind of discussion out of that one Aerows...all he does is personal attacks, look at his posting history 99% of it is personal attacks on fellow DUers.

[Bobbie Jo]

295. 23 is a she...

and she has a low tolerance for passive aggressive shit stirrers like those who have congregated on this thread, bringing their best Heathers routine.

Obviously, we don't like one another. Leave it at that. That you felt the need to bring your shovel of snide to fling more crap on the pile just demonstrates the point.

[Rex]

297. Of course she does...just like you and your crew.

I was giving a friend some advice, nice of you to stick your unwanted neck into the conversation.

[Bobbie Jo]

298. Yadda yadda....

I know what you are, but what am I....

Your "contribution" is noted.

[Rex]

299. Yeah that about the best you can do with conversation, we all know thanks.

Please, wade back into the kiddie pool where you belong now...good boy!

[Bobbie Jo]

301. Pure idiocy. nt

[Rex]

303. Pure projection. nt.

[Bobbie Jo]

309. Indeed. nt

[Rex]

310. I'm glad to see you agree about your post.

About time. Thanks for proving my point too. If I need anything else out of you, I will let you know.

[Bobbie Jo]

311. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4353328

[Rex]

314. How completely unoriginal and typical.

[Aerows]

321. Oh look

a blue link.

[Number23]

339. Shovel dude... LOL

Yeah, I'm just gonna leave my pre-edit. We're dealing with a special breed here. I've never seen anyone overuse the rofl smiley guy as the way that one does. I won't point out that the smiley is about six times more intelligent and cogent than anything they've ever posted.

[Number23]

338. Irony. The person who follows me like a lost puppy from thread to thread

always responding to OTHERS who are responding to me but never has the courage to respond to me himself has the unmitigated gall to tell someone else to ignore me when he is incapable of doing that his damn self.

You have got to be one of the most most superfluous and bizarre people here. And considering this place, that is truly saying something.

[arely staircase]

334. is this the raccoon thing?

someone asked me if I was the one who got bit by a raccoon the other day.

[Number23]

341. I don't know what bit her. But she keeps posting about it so I'm sure it will be easy enough to find

[Ghost Dog]

240. Paul Revere was a rebel,

claiming the right to free speech. He was not even functioning as an NSA spy collecting and analyzing the metadata of the supposedly free subject British or Irish (at that time) people.

But, your President has achieved the headlines in all the (Western) MSM he wanted ... As if that vaporware amounts to a 'cease and desist' order!

BS. Call it what it is: BS. Even Angela knows that.

[Aerows]

79. Were you the one to defend Bush during his tenure?

Because I see a similarity.

[ProSense]

87. Good grief

"Were you the one to defend Bush during his tenure? Because I see a similarity."

...that's such a lame argument. I mean, if people want to be anti-Obama on everything, hype Rand Paul while pretending not to and call everyone who supports the President names, go for it. Trying to claim that supporting the President is akin to defending Bush is silliness.

Rah fucking rah, and thanks Obama.

[Aerows]

88. Oh, PR person got angry

If it is a lame argument, why are you replying, dearheart?

[ProSense]

131. Oh,

"Oh, PR person got angry"

...I think the people who are "angry" are those who can't stand the fact that President Obama is moving forward with NSA reforms: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024348957

This thread is hilarious.

[Aerows]

144. It truly is hilarious

Good luck with the spin, PR.

You have a hard road ahead of you, and several of us are savoring it. Not because it harms President Obama, and we certainly don't want to have harm brought on the Democratic party, but because sycophants are disgusting. Paid ones are an infestation.

[Titonwan]

182. Good to know others see this obsessive compulsive

for what he is. If this one doesn't work for the spin staff at 1600, I'd be amazed. Smells like team spirit.
Over 100,000+ posts and nothing on. (h/t Bruce Springstein)

[sulphurdunn]

262. We'll have to wait and see

about those reforms. I wonder if the elected government has much real control over the shadow government or the corporate power that bankrolls both and is the only power happy with the status quo. It is a sad to think people really believe that going to the polls and electing politicians every few years has much of anything to do with representative democracy.

[stupidicus]

264. I'm not

I'm pleased and will be with whatever positive actions/directions he takes in terms of reigning them in, as will most if not all the rest. That however, is more an act of penance than alleviation of the guilt denied by cult members from the start of the Snowden revelations.

What's hilarious is those guilty as charged in this OP pretending they aren't guilty as charged.

I feel like Mr. Clean, given that I argued from the beginning that such moves on his or the part of congress would show how horribly wrong all those doing the "Paulite/racist/Snowden/traitor-lover/etc" charging were.

The only thing missing from this OP is the righteous indignation not resulting in a demand for an apology from all the pottymouths charged.

This is not of course something that the posting of a few emoticons won't cure.

Obviously such things are OIYATWB

do have a good day

[Titonwan]

205. "What's curious is how angry people are that reforms are being made."

Wow. I go to reichwing sites, but you got the jedi mind trick down to a tee!
Sorry, I'm immune to bullshit.

[ProSense]

208. You know what

"What's curious is how angry people are that reforms are being made."

Wow. I go to reichwing sites, but you got the jedi mind trick down to a tee!
Sorry, I'm immune to bullshit.

...I don't give a shit what you're "immune" to. Here's the deal: There appears to be agreement about how much Clinton fucked up the country: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024345076#post8

Everyone knows Reagan and Bush did. So that's more than 30 years of fucking up the country, and it goes back many more years than that.

Obama comes along, and is working to try to put the pieces back together (Wall Street reform and the CFPB, Obamacare, environmental regulations and a bunch of other stuff).

None of that appears to matter. The only thing that the anti-Obama crowd wants everyone to deem the most important issues are the NSA and TPP. The NSA was launched 60 years ago, and has been a fucked up organization since then. The TPP, as horrible as it's being made out to be, isn't a fucking law yet.

So until the reforms for the NSA are finalized, be it via Obama's proposals or in combination with Congressional action, there are other fucking issues to deal with, like raising the minimum wage to help tens of milions of people afford a little more food...like ensuring that those who are being blocked from access to health care by Republican can sign up for Medicaid.

So spare me the insights about fucking "reichwing sites," OK?

[LiberalLovinLug]

271. Good post Titonwan

"We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't for the brave acts of whistle blowing and journalism. Barack grudgingly gave Ed credit for this (in a back handed way) and yes, that's what's called 'vindication'. "

I would not have hidden it.

[Ghost Dog]

319. .

[sabrina 1]

228. Why did we need reforms of something we were told everyone knew for centuries and were no problem

anyhow? Lol! Cali has a point.

The best thing to do is to be consistent on issues and never (I learned this after spending years defending Clinton against right wing attacks when he betrayed all of us and became 'like a son' to Barbara Bush and went around the world rehabilitating Bush, cavorting with the enemy iow. I'm sure Bush supporters got the same shock after the way they supported HIM and slammed Clinton mainly because of him) get personally attached to ANY politician. They will make defending them very difficult and cause you to avoid stating your own opinions in order not to 'let them down' when they flip flop on issues you care about.

Politicians are not our friends, they were given a job by us because we thought they were the best person to do the job. When they don't the job we thought they would do, it's best to just say so, painful as it may be.

Issues are all I care about now after spending so much time focusing on the politician and as a result not noticing, or ignoring, even trying to defend, what he was up to regarding policies, until it was way too late. Iow, I did what you are doing which is why I understand it.

[Ghost Dog]

256. This is ineffably well put, sabrina_1.

Thank you.

The same, probably, I'd suggest, should be taken into consideration as regards possible feelings of 'loyalty' or attachment one might hold not just towards individual politicians or parties but to entire political ideologies or philosophies.

[randome]

258. Worshiping at the alter of Consistency is a foolish game.

Everyone's viewpoints should be malleable when new information is presented. Otherwise, we are all robots.

Most of us who think Snowden is a fool agreed that reforms were needed. Now here they are and some DUers are still unhappy about it. It's an interesting view of society in a microcosm.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

313. Indeed. Look in the mirror, my friend. n/t

[treestar]

326. And just what reforms are needed?

As I am sure these are not enough?

[Aerows]

331. Any day that you wake up and think "all is perfect"

is a day when you are deprived of making things better. Standing in the way of making things better, is a bigger sin.

[treestar]

342. But what ideally is to be done with the NSA?

What are the reforms that are going to be enough?

[sabrina 1]

358. Get rid of all the Republicans, which should have happened five years ago. That's why we elect

Democrats, to get rid of Republicans. Clapper, Alexander eg.

Then fire all of Bush/Cheney's Corporations otherwise known as 'Security Contractors, starting with Republican, Clapper's old Corp, Booz Allen. They've made billions of tax dollars to do NOTHING about terror as the panel has revealed.

Congress should NOT be outsourcing and privatizing our National Security. They need to do their jobs, not pass them along to someone else, and hand the bill to the American people.

I'd be happy with that for a start.

Then, reorganize the NSA and when Dems in power, PUT DEMS in charge. No one can trust a Republican, yet here we are after winning TWO elections.

Then retrain the whole organization so they understand that the American people are NOT Foreign Terrorists, THEY are supposed to be who they are protecting from terror. So start spying on TERRORISTS and let them know we take the US Constitution VERY seriously and anyone who even suggests violating it, in opposition to their very own oaths of office, will be charged with a crime.

Feinstein says we are 'more danger now than ever'. Well, I don't know where to start with that one, but I'll start with 'when you slaughter other people's families, even if they LOVED you before, guess what, you are risking some consequences.

Second, when you spend your time spying on the wrong people, the right people, see the Boston Bomber eg, get to do whatever they want without fear of being spied on.

And get rid of ALL 'secret courts' and 'mass warrants'. Both are unconstitutional. Warrants must show probable cause to be legal. How the hell can you show group probable cause of wrong doing on over 300 million people? If someone tried to pass off the garbage we've been given on this country and expected us to believe it, we would laugh. The ONLY reason we are not laughing is because it is our own government trying to convince of us of these fantasies they are making up.

[treestar]

362. you would apply full criminal law standards for warrants to national security?

Wow. We won't be secure at all.

I think they already understand that the American people are not foreign terrorists. Duh.

[tomp]

239. only a politically naive fool would think obama is reining anything in...

...or would trust obama as far as one could throw him.

[The Wielding Truth]

270. So who do you trust in government?

[Aerows]

349. Who do you trust in government, honest question? n/t

[LondonReign2]

3. The contortions were amazing, weren't they?

[Union Scribe]

4. What I haven't seen is any of them

explain how "Obama's reforms" are needed if, as they have been telling us for ages now, there is no problem with what the NSA is doing. I know it would just go along the lines of "well there wasn't anything wrong but he made it more right, somehow," but it would be nice to witness some actual thought processes taking place with them.

[Whisp]

146. wasn't anything wrong? lol.

lol.
Hillary Clinton spied on the United Nations, that was a very big story - where was everyone Then? - but didn't get much play here at all because our favourite Russian spy is the hero du jour because GG the fake and scammer says so.

good fricken grief.

[Skittles]

167. HILLARY! HILLARY!!

[Whisp]

168. I know. It's so cute when she spies.

[Skittles]

169. more cuter when you deflect!

[Whisp]

172. topic: NSA / spying

Hillary caught illegally spying on the UN, what the NSA is accused of.
Both are guilty.

And that's a deflection, folks!

[Aerows]

190. You and I are friends, dude

This bs is ridiculous.

[Whisp]

209. lookie here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un

Washington is running a secret intelligence campaign targeted at the leadership of the United Nations, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon and the permanent security council representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK.

A classified directive which appears to blur the line between diplomacy and spying was issued to US diplomats under Hillary Clinton's name in July 2009, demanding forensic technical details about the communications systems used by top UN officials, including passwords and personal encryption keys used in private and commercial networks for official communications.

It called for detailed biometric information "on key UN officials, to include undersecretaries, heads of specialised agencies and their chief advisers, top SYG [secretary general] aides, heads of peace operations and political field missions, including force commanders" as well as intelligence on Ban's "management and decision-making style and his influence on the secretariat". A parallel intelligence directive sent to diplomats in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi said biometric data included DNA, fingerprints and iris scans.

Washington also wanted credit card numbers, email addresses, phone, fax and pager numbers and even frequent-flyer account numbers for UN figures and "biographic and biometric information on UN Security Council permanent representatives".

--

Now the argument could again be made that the buck stops at Obama and Hillary was just following his orders. I find that unlikely as Clinton has proved that she like to work on her own and do her own thing - like that Honduras coup.

[struggle4progress]

237. ... Cables containing the guidance were sent in 2008 and 2009 ... "No one ever reads

the Humint tasking reporting," said a former diplomat who did not want to speak for attribution about a sensitive matter. "Probably if an adult pair of eyes had looked at it, they'd say, 'Wait a minute, we're not going to get anyone's frequent flier number. Give me a break' " ... Diplomats frequently pass information to colleagues in the intelligence community, said veteran envoy Christopher Hill, who was U.S. ambassador to Iraq from early 2009 until August. But Hill said he never heard of anyone gathering the kinds of technical data spelled out in the WikiLeaks cables. "The relationship a U.S. diplomat might have with a foreign contact is a very sensitive one, which no one would want to jeopardize by the sort of data fishing described in WikiLeaks," Hill said ...
WikiLeaks cables' 'Humint' directive gathered dust, former officials say
U.S. diplomats have largely ignored the guidance to collect information about foreign envoys, former senior State Department officials say.
December 02, 2010|By Ken Dilanian, Los Angeles Times

[Rex]

300. Critical thinking scares a lot of people who resist change like it was a disease.

nt.

[MineralMan]

5. There's always room for reforms.

There's always a need for reforms. And President Obama is making some in the NSA's activities, while recognizing its important functions in international intelligence gathering.

The NSA does have a role that should not be eliminated. Just controlled better.

[JoePhilly]

6. I think your OP shoud be posted to this other DU thread.

Why do disagreements here so often devolve into insults?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4347717

Because its a great example of why.

[Wait Wut]

8. ...

Best answer, so far.

[oldhippie]

33. How so?

The OP posted an opinion in a civil way, with no insults apparent. How, exactly, is this an example of why a disagreement would devolve into insults? Because someone may disagree? Is that all it takes? Really?

[brett_jv]

50. I'm not sure that using the word 'pathetic' ...

Qualifies as being 'civil', exactly.

Just sayin' ...

[JoePhilly]

51. +1

[oldhippie]

55. I think it is quite a stretch to ....

... consider it an insult. Per the dictionary:

Full Definition of PATHETIC
1: having a capacity to move one to either compassionate or contemptuous pity

2: marked by sorrow or melancholy : sad

3: pitifully inferior or inadequate <the restaurant's pathetic service>

It's a descriptive word. Only the third definition might be considered pejorative. I don't find it uncivil compared to most of what goes on around here. YMMV.

[JoePhilly]

60. How about "mentally disturbing"?

The OP is an attack on other members of DU, using a false strawman.

So clearly, its a complement, a way to reach out and engage others in thoughtful discussion.

[mindwalker_i]

64. Can you define "false strawman"?

On the flip side, is there a "true strawman"?

Is this a valid representation? strawman ( |true> + |false> )

[JoePhilly]

71. Sure. Its a set of lies, bundled together to create a false argument.

Here, for reference, is a true strawman .... see, he's actually made of straw.



Most children have seen these, not sure why you have not.

Hope that helped.

[mindwalker_i]

126. So a "false strawman" refers just to arguments

I've seen a "strawman" but not a "true strawman" and the above picture looks like just a regular run-of-the-mill strawman. Am I missing something about the picture that makes it warrent the extra description of "true"?

And just to be clear, the addition of the terms "true" or "false" in purely a binary operation, not a sliding scale between two extremes, correct? If so, then representing it as a vector in Hilbert space, as I did above, is incorrect as those vectors indicate a state of superposition between multiple, orthognal outcomes.

[Rex]

135. Binary is all some do here.

It is the reason you see some strangely go out of their way to detest those of us with critical thinking skills.

[Egnever]

162. Snort

The OP is the very definition of binary thinking.

I find it hilarious you see it as anything else.

[Rex]

278. Like I was saying...and here comes one to reply to me.

Like a moth to a flame.

[Skittles]

108. that's one of the code phrases

yup

[mindwalker_i]

149. "False strawman"?

I seems like this is the preferred method to brush aside arguments against anything Obama is doing. I've also seen "ODS" used all over the fringgin' place, like to anyone who isn't gushing over Obama saying he would like to see the NSA get warrents before querying the already-collected data about everyone.

I uess my problem is this: I have these opinions about what is good or what is bad for this country or democracy, and I judge leaders' actions based on what they are doing or propose to do, and whether that would help or hurt the country. Especially with the arguments about spying, there are people who support Obama no matter what. That's similar to religious people who support their church and priest or other official no matter what kids are getting raped.

[Aerows]

320. Keep kicking ass

because you do it so well.

[oldhippie]

76. I think what you are failing to grasp ....

... is that those descriptors in the OP were in reference to thoughts, statements, ideas, and not referenced to a person. It is not an attack on another member of DU, but an attack on the opinions, concepts and ideas that are under discussion. How else would it be possible to disagree with another's argument or opinion? The terms used were perfectly good descriptors.

As I opined in that other thread, many here have no concept of the skills of argumentation or rhetoric. Too many, like you seem to have done above, consider an attack on an idea or opinion to be an attack on the person. That's how some uncivil flame wars get started.

But that's OK. It still makes interesting reading.

[Aerows]

85. Same thing used on Digg and Reddit during the Bush years

as though people are completely freaking ignorant and don't notice. Flame wars? Hell they start them to detract from policy problems. Everyone with a brain knows this.

[JoePhilly]

152. Yea, no one buys that.

Look down thread. Lots of folks know that the OP is referring to DU members.

That's one of their stated reasons for liking the OP in the first place.

I expect the right wing to play dumb in situations like this. Sad to see that same behavior used here.

[oldhippie]

153. "Referring to DU members...."

... or their opinions and ideas. Can you admit the possibility that one can criticize, attack, or mock and idea or opinion without doing same to the individual holding it?

[JoePhilly]

155. Absolutely. The OP is not doing that.

And the people responding know that.

[Fumesucker]

175. Mocking is an equal opportunity behavior, ideas and individuals both

I still think we should just number the arguments, insults and so on, it would save a ridiculous amount of bandwidth on the DU.

I actually learn quite a bit from you and in a positive way, I appreciate your input sometimes and I think you have good insights into some aspects of politics.

A lot of us were trained by eight years of Dick 'n Dubya to defend the barricades at the slightest threat, it became our lives to a bigger extent than I think many of us realize ourselves. Bear in mind that the human brain largely sees what it expects to see and we expect to be sold out, it's been going on for over thirty years now that this nation has staggered from one political and economic disaster to another and I for one don't see particularly the economic picture changing except for the worse for those of us up here in the cheap seats.

So many things are a matter of perspective and changing one's perspective is so often a remarkably difficult thing to do. There are some subjects on the DU that I simply don't post about any more, there isn't any point when the conversations invariably shed far more heat than light.

Everything you say will be misquoted, misconstrued and used against you.

[Aerows]

193. You are wise

That was very profound, fumesucker.

[Aerows]

164. They actually do

I understand.

[FSogol]

74. +1 n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

7. A clear example of how ...

Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2014, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)

simplifying someone else's argument, leads one into the words ... Oops, I meant, woods.

"Defending" the NSA and "lauding the President for reigning it in", in no way suggests that the "defenders" believed the NSA had done/is doing anything "wrong" or "egregious."

I support and defend the ACA ... If the President were to make some changes to the program, my applauding the changes does not mean that I thought the ACA was wrong or egregious.

[JoePhilly]

59. Awe come on ...

Building a strawman, claiming others built it and own it, and then knocking it, and them, over ... a time honored DU tradition!

[1StrongBlackMan]

91. My bad ...

[MisterP]

9. I'm just waiting for them to turn on Him entirely (come '15 or '17)

[Demeter]

266. Unlikely

The thing most disturbing and intractible about mental illness is its inflexibility. The complete opposite of Hope and Change, actually, now that I think of it.

[Aerows]

333. For some, he's a poster boy

I don't think he ever wanted to be that, but there it is.

[geek tragedy]

10. this makes me miss meta nt

[frazzled]

11. The people who screamed most loudly

that "It's not about Snowden!" are precisely the ones saying now, "It's all about Snowden! (He's vindicated!)" So sorry you're so devastated that your ability to be angry at Obama has been cut off at the knees. You'll have to move on to the next outrage.

To quote yourself: "I find this mentality disturbing and pathetic. It goes far beyond supporting changes to the NSA and into the realm of cult of adoration and that's just not healthy."

[kelliekat44]

13. Yes, but which cult? nt

[Orsino]

18. Well, it wasn't about Snowden, and yes, he's been vindicated. At least in part.

However tepid the change we see, we would have seen none without Snowden or some other whistleblower. That must be weighed against whatever harm he may have done.

[MNBrewer]

97. Saying "he's vindicated" is nothing like saying "It's all about Snowden"

[Aerows]

102. Boxes. Garage

Didn't pet neighbor's dog.

Smells of elderberries, hamster mother.

[Autumn]

112. Pole Dancer!!!!!

[Aerows]

116. It's to the point of hilarious

LMAO that made me nearly fall out of my chair laughing.

[Autumn]

120. Are you feeling better after your ordeal?

I hope so.

[Aerows]

121. I've quit taking the antibiotics because they made me sick as a dog

I'm getting there. I actually ate something today and kept it down! I weigh 110 and can't afford to lose weight. I was filled so full of antibiotics and ibuprofen for swelling that I was in danger of having more problems with the cure than the disease.

Thank you for asking, though

[sabrina 1]

231. Ballerina deserter!

[Broward]

12. Agreed, this cult like mindset is dangerous for democracy.

[Zorra]

14. Let's just be glad they didn't find a Chris Christie to love first. nt

[L0oniX]

275. OMG LOL

[MineralMan]

15. It's interesting that you began a new thread to call out

unnamed DUers with whom you disagree.

I'm one of those who believes that the NSA has a legitimate function in international intelligence. I even worked inside the NSA while serving in the USAF, as I have stated a number of times on DU.

The President has announced changes in how that agency does its business. That's his job. If you expected him to shut the agency down, then you're expecting what will not happen. The NSA has a role to play, and does it's job in international intelligence gathering.

I'm disappointed that you used this thread to further attack some DUers without even naming them. Perhaps you might go to the threads where they are posting and counter what they say there.

[Union Scribe]

20. So when you choose to take to GD

to help call out a poster, it's different?

[MineralMan]

29. Not my thread. My distaste for Rand Paul and his Father

is well known, and I'll comment in any thread I please.

I don't take to GD. I am on DU frequently, and reply to posts here when I want to reply, as I did in this thread, and that one, too. I also commented in the thread that praised Rand Paul for his objections to President Obama's measures regarding the NSA. You will find me in most threads having to do with the Pauls. Count on it.

[sabrina 1]

233. Are you saying you never started a thread calling out a DUer?

Because I beg to differ. And the question was 'is it different when you do it'. It's a fair question. You are lecturing Cali for something she has not done, she has not named anyone, but which you yourself have done. So is it different when you do it? I believe that is a fair question since you chose to admonish the OP.

[sabrina 1]

232. That's interesting. Airc, you have started threads of your own to call out DUers you disagreed with.

Have you changed your mind about that? I see no one named in this OP. I do recall people being named in your threads though. I would have thought you would have had no objection to this thread unless as I said, you've had a change of heart.

[NCTraveler]

16. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

He was pantsed.

Don't know how someone would come to a different conclusion.

[whatchamacallit]

17. Aint that the truth K&R n/t

[SidDithers]

21. Oh, you're back...nt

Sid

[Puglover]

58. Oh

You're still here. NT

[ctsnowman]

202. lol Love it.

[NealK]

212. ROFL!

[Scootaloo]

215. +100!

[sabrina 1]

234. Lol!

[L0oniX]

277. ^^^this^^^

[Rex]

282. +zillion.

Pwnage!

[ronnie624]

288. That one's posts, deserve nothing but ridicule. n/t

[SMC22307]

307. LOL!

[Aerows]

348. LOL n/t

[abelenkpe]

22. Is there a list of nefarious NSA supporters?

Are you keeping track of all their posts? How do you manage all the information?

[former9thward]

24. They are very obvious.

No need to keep track of them. Any thread about Snowden they jump in and tell us he was a loser, a loner, a stripper for a girlfriend, someone who didn't really reveal anything, someone who caused people to be killed, a libertarian, a patsy for Putin, a spy, etc., etc.

[Hekate]

219. Interesting that you joined in '08, but half your nasty posts have been in the last 90 days

And they are nasty: "corrupter in chief"/ "lizard brains" / "Obamabots." Genuine spew.

What's your point?

[NuclearDem]

221. wat

[Ghost Dog]

323. Being a stripper for a girlfriend

is ok when she strips tooo...

[TheKentuckian]

27. Sure, it is available for $69.99 from some contractor spin off, nothing they have is private, right

No fuss no buss. It is all meta and folk's who have done nothing wrong have no reason to worry.

They got this!

[Fumesucker]

31. It's the spectacular nature of some of the twists of logic that make them so memorable

Certain posters become known for certain positions because they will say the most ridiculously outrageous things to support those positions.

You really can't help but notice in the more egregious cases, rather like you would notice someone taking an oath for a public office with say a colander on his head.

[treestar]

46. Question that this is not the end of the world

and you become an "NSA supporter." The lack of shades of grey here is about as bad as arguing with right wingers.
Question Snowy and you support all kinds of spying that never took place. Exaggeration allows people to avoid having to support their arguments.

Merely attacking the person who disagrees is called ad hominem and is a fallacy. OP seeks a short cut - I can simply say those who oppose me are pathetic people of bad character - now OP need not find support for her side.

[FSogol]

73. +1 n/t

[jberryhill]

156. +many

[Titonwan]

189. I don't recall anyone saying this was the 'end of the world'

Your post is rife with logical fallacies in a argument. And yes, you are using ad hominem, also. If you have a valid argument- state it. Links to your assertions would also be helpful.
"Snowy" (your words)... really? Fail.

[treestar]

196. DU is full of end of the world posts

Everything is the worst that ever was.

[Titonwan]

204. Uhm, no.

Only yours sounds desperate. Ta ta for now.

[treestar]

243. You must not be reading much on DU

There is plenty of sky is falling, in fact, it is characteristic of DU. You have not responded in substance.

[Rex]

285. That one likes to tell people, year after year to WAIT for the right

Congress to come along to fix everything...such a boring and predictable thing to hear from someone that doesn't want real change.

[treestar]

324. What's real change?

How else can there be any change without a Congress that will vote for it?

[SMC22307]

316. Their use of "Pootie-Poot" is supposedly clever, too.

Are they George W. Bush fans? It's bizarre.

[Rex]

283. Yeah about as lame as someone telling you year after year

to wait for the right body in Congress to make changes blah blah...

"End of the world" hyperbole much?

[treestar]

325. Obviously I meant to track the hyperbole

of those who want to make a huge deal of it.

[bobduca]

160. They are the posters making illogical claims and personal insults

[joshcryer]

222. No, it's a caricature.

There aren't very many on DU who actually support the NSA, but we can all happily rally around the phantom Emmanuel Goldstein's of DU, just to pat ourselves on the back.

And yes I can fucking NAME the only two NSA defenders I have recognized, ucrdem, and randome. They both make compelling arguments for the NSA and are cordial about it. They get a lot of shit for their position, but they are an insignificant, utter minority on Democratic Underground. I disagree with them and many would, but that doesn't mean that DU is being filled with pro-NSA posters. It's a joke.

[QuestForSense]

23. James Clapper weighs in.

"The reforms he announced today and those that are under consideration are focused on striking the right balance between making sure we have the tools necessary to conduct intelligence, that we are being as transparent as possible and that we're not violating the civil liberties and privacy of innocent Americans." — Director of National Intelligence James Clapper

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/obamas-nsa-speech-21575912

[ProSense]

25. So did

the ACLU:

ACLU Comment on President’s NSA Speech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347726

...and these Senators:

Senator Leahy's statement on the President’s NSA reforms
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347529

Udall, Wyden, Heinrich Statement Reacting to President's Speech on NSA, Surveillance Reform
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024347077

[whatchamacallit]

26. Well if Clapper says so...

[sabrina 1]

235. Clapper would never lie to us!

Just to Congress ....

[jsr]

28. The Clapper can tell no lies

[VanillaRhapsody]

35. He can make erroneous statements...

there fixed that for ya!

[Fumesucker]

38. He can be a poor manager that doesn't have a clue what his agency is actually doing

There, fixed that for ya!

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. He seemed to know everything else....he mispoke on one statement

that does not a "poor manager" make

there fixed THAT for ya!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

57. Is he your uncle or something? I just don't get the fronting for a Republican liar.

[Rex]

66. Really you don't?

Pretty obvious imo.

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. and you know what they say about opinions...

[Rex]

75. They?

Who is 'they'?

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. Is he your ex or something?

I don't get the hatred over an erroneous statement about a complex issue...

[Aerows]

106. PR failure

It kind of makes me happy to see you not do to well at it. You have better things to do with your life, my dear. I am sincere about that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. back at ya "dumpling"

I am sincere about that!

Your "condescension" routine truly needs work...ya feeling me?

[Aerows]

113. LMAO! n/t

[zeemike]

44. Well I am sure Clapper would have to approve.

Or it would not be done.
Just like no one fucked with J Edgar Hover no one will fuck with Clapper...and for the same reason.

[Whisp]

30. lol.

good church lady routine.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. NO that was YOUR position on THEM

not nearly the same thing is it?

[totodeinhere]

36. You are absolutely correct. And if the president had said that he was not reining in the NSA

those same sycophants would be on board with that too.

[Broward]

41. Agreed, can they really not see that? It boggles the mind.

[LondonReign2]

95. Indeed. He could say that he was completely eliminating the NSA

or he could say he was tripling the budget of the NSA. Either way the cheer squad would be ecstatic.

[L0oniX]

280. Obviously what he says and does are not the same.

I heard a lot on the campaign. I'm still only hearing.

[DevonRex]

42. Oh, you poor thing. nt

[frylock]

43. it was the same thing with syria..

those beating the war drums the loudest were tripping over their dicks to congratulate the president on his 11-dimensional chess maneuvers.

[Aerows]

93. They are tripping over their dicks, now

PR personnel are trying to figure out how to spin this. I delight in seeing it now as I did when they tripped over their dicks in the Bush administration. Tell the fucking truth, and quit trying to be a bullshit artist, then the people take you seriously.

[treestar]

45. It's pathetic to hang onto hatred of a politician

to the point where you have to attack his/her supporters.

If he did wrong, he did wrong, in your opinion. Others are allowed to defend his actions.

Also the NSA has existed long before Obama and will long after he leaves the WH.

Some people think your hair is on fire about it and that has little to do with the President. This president tends to attract supporters whose hair is not on fire. Thus they are the same people.

It's not pathetic - in our view, your making a huge catastrophe out of every issue or problem that exists is pathetic.

[Bluenorthwest]

122. You know what's so overused that it is dull and damaging? Refering to any criticism as hate.

This is a habit beloved by white, straight, down the middle types. They never, ever have to face hate from anyone in their affluent lives, so to them the word 'hate' is just a thing to toss about. They do not understand the meaning of the word, they feel joy in accusing others of hate, because they don't know that hate is some bigot with a baseball bat quoting his favorite preacher and letting it fly, that hate is an oven for humans, that hate is laws which say 'some are superior to others'.
They toss the word hate around like a nerf ball, privilege and smugness define their form, judgment and venom define their hearts.

[treestar]

195. lol white? Obama is black.

Criticism may well be racism.

I am a woman, so I know being hated.

[SMC22307]

315. You're a woman, so you know being hated?

Seriously? Who, exactly, hates you? That's a pretty shitty way to go through life, feeling hated.

Not everyone buys Melissa Harris-Perry's bullshit re: Obama critics being racist. It's his right-wing policies:

http://www.alternet.org/story/152552/white_liberals_have_cooled_on_obama_--_does_race_have_anything_to_do_with_it

But I guess it's easier to get sucked in by the lazy "it's racism" charges.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

364. You know self-pity for sure.

[JaneyVee]

47. Sigh. More absurd reductionist arguments.

[grasswire]

48. I noticed that. nt

[ZombieHorde]

49. The problem is loyalty.

Loyalty is considered a virtue, but I think we would do well to consider it a vice.

If we are loyal to people, then we betray our values.
If we are loyal to values, then we betray people.

Loyalty is betrayal.

[oldhippie]

151. Wow. Excellent.

That made me think a bit. I never heard that expressed like that before. Is that original?

[ZombieHorde]

157. Yes, it's original.

I am probably not the first person to come that conclusion, but I came to that conclusion on my own.

[markpkessinger]

52. Good catch, Cali! n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

"Those who make peaceful protest impossible - will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

It's a progressive thing.
& R

[DisgustipatedinCA]

56. Dead-on nailed it, Cali.

Hypocrites to the core.

[WillyT]

62. Hear Hear !!!

& Rec !!!

[woo me with science]

63. It's called PROPAGANDA,

and it shifts as necessary.

[truedelphi]

226. Yes you've nailed it. It is called Propaganda.

And given that the TV stations, in terms of their news people, are mostly CIA and/or else totally controlled by their big advertisers, it probably get worse rather than better.

[albino65]

65. political porn

I know this is all bullshit, but I can't look away.

[FSogol]

69. Isn't the opposite true? Those that wanted the President to do something

are now condemning the President for reining it in? To me, that's fairly amusing considering the position they took that the NSA was evil. It just goes to show what we already know: For more than a few folks, it's all about the President and how he can do no right.

Yes, I find ODS disturbing and pathetic. It goes far beyond disagreeing with the President and into the realm of hatred and that's just not healthy.

[JoePhilly]

72. Yea, but Putin made him rein it in.

[Drunken Irishman]

82. Absolutely.

[Maedhros]

84. This would not be the first speech given by Obama

in which he promises to do something positive but then utterly fails to carry through or, as is also often the case, proceeds to do the opposite.

[markpkessinger]

86. I think you'll find . . .

. . . that those of us who were upset with President Obama's earlier defense of the NSA, if we are still upset with him, is that his reforms don't go far enough. So no, we are NOT "now condemning the President for reining it in" -- we are upset that he is STILL failing to effectively address the NSA's overreach. The President's proposals amount to window dressing, not the real thing. It is still the ORIGINAL criticism that stands, not a new one. But hey, nice attempt to dishonestly characterize others' arguments.

[JoePhilly]

154. Is anyone in this thread discussing ...

... The proposed reforms or their merits?

The OP jumps over those to call out DU members they've disagreed with on the topic in the past, suggesting they are "pathetic" and "mentally disturbed".

I do not see anything in the OP proposing or fostering a direct discussion on the reforms proposed so far.

Do you see something in there that does?

[Johonny]

99. Pretty much. Sometime you can't win

I wasn't paranoid afraid of the NSA. On the other hand I thought the president should follow through on his talk to transform the agency particularly in light of the fact it managed to let its crown jewel walk off to China and Russia. Any other agency that had that happen would have been frozen in place, thoroughly reviewed by congress, and massively changed. Obama has been talking about getting more oversight, more transparency etc... until that happens I'm not sure this exactly is super exciting. I like what I heard, now lets see it happen. It also isn't something to condemn Obama for or other DUers. Once again there seems to be a intentional misunderstanding that if your not on paranoid DEFCON1 about an issue then you love an issue and are carrying the administrations water. Some people just want to be angry at you. I think the poster is finding out most people wanted NSA changes and what they thought they saw as NSA sheep were in fact people just not as over the top as them. Given the issue I am not surprised with the response because nearly everyone, even Obama, has been calling for and saying this was coming.

[great white snark]

107. Yup.

Well said.

[quakerboy]

174. Is it?

Going down this thread, I have yet to see a single person post condemning the president for reining anything in. I would guess i would find the same in other threads on the topic.

Some condemn for not reining in to start with, some condemn for lying about it, and some condemn for not doing enough to rein it in yet. But I haven't seen a single complaint about reining it in.

[Puglover]

241. No people are pointing out the hypocrisy

of other posters that camped every thread about Snowden calling for his head but now are lauding PO for his courageous stand. For they record his "stand" is a good thing. However if anyone believes that he would arrived at this sans Snowden I got a bridge in Brykln to sell them.

But no matter. It's so much easier to call people "haters" and accuse them of "ODS".

Flipping comedy gold.

[Aerows]

332. It's like a glass of water in the desert.

You savor every drop.

Hoping that you get purged of the bullshit sand in the desert that wore you down.

[JI7]

199. i think people have a problem with those who support the PRes more than actually caring

about issues in many cases.

i saw this when people became more angry after news of the deal with russia to get inspections into syria. they were going on about how obama and kerry wanted war. they posted some nasty fucked up shit . when it didn't happen they got angry.

i think they were looking forward to a war so they can start their "anti war activism" of being online and bashing the pres and anyone who supports him.

[sabrina 1]

236. He restored the 4th Amendment? Then I'm with him all the way!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

365. No...what a ludicrous statement.

Show me someone on DU condemning the president for reining in spying abuses.

[Rex]

77. That is why you have to take what they say with a large grain of salt.

Unless you are into believing corporate/government propaganda. I find them to be most amusing, with their verbal acrobatics.

[Aerows]

78. You are teasing a bull, Cali

President Obama is inviolate and every policy he has ever enacted is solid gold, my dear.

Same way during the Bush years. No one could criticize him. See a correlation?

Circling the wagons is bipartisan and it is ridiculous.

[Autumn]

81. I think you just might be right cali

[Aerows]

90. Exactly

Some of us have been on this bus and under it before.

[davidthegnome]

83. Part of the prolem, I think...

is that people very much want to believe in the President. So when he does something that is seen as good, as noble, as courageous or compassionate in some way... then there will always be some that can be relied upon to cheer for him. My understanding of the reforms is that, basically, the information will continue to be collected, it will now simply have to be in some way approved by a secret court - the details of this are all too vague. It's like saying, "Yeah, we went ahead and made some great changes to protect your civil rights, we just can't explain it to you, because, you know, it's a secret."

I remember, some years ago, being a hopeful young man who read a story about the Audacity of Hope. The President we have - and the person who wrote that book, are not the same person (oh yes, I know what I did there). I have never disliked the President, though I have been angry and disappointed with him at times, I maintain my belief that he is basically a good man, who has a really shitty job.

While we may not truly be living in a democracy anymore, we're not in a monarchy either. The President has some limited authority, but I expect that there are some things he simply cannot do, without risk to the health and safety of himself and his family. Yes, I do suspect that there is a sinister group in this government, or perhaps within our MIC, that pretty much tells the public figureheads how high to jump (or, more specifically, how high they CAN jump). Yes, I'm paranoid - but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.

[Aerows]

89. Meltdown forthcoming

because government, politicians can do no wrong, according to their PR representatives.

[LittleBlue]

94. It is pathetic

If Bush were in office, no one on here would be doing these mental gymnastics to justify it.

[Aerows]

98. Oh, they would

And you know which ones would be doing so, and why. Same old shit. PR PR persons PR to quote Edina.

[LittleBlue]

101. Yeah there would be a few

I wonder if they ever get embarrassed having to justify the unjustifiable. Hopefully they at least get paid to spread that shit.

[Aerows]

103. I don't know if they get embarrassed

I sure as hell would be.

[bobduca]

291. they are shameless

embarrassment does not enter into the equation when you are pretending you are a public relations flak for the White House.

[QuestForSense]

115. Truly.

But he DID set the bar pretty darned low.

[Skittles]

105. are you just now figuring out the swooners, cali?

they're a fucking embarrassment - put 'em on IGNORE until 2017 - they'll come back to their senses then

[Aerows]

114. Want me to kick them in the ass?

I think I pretty much am. But I'll put on big boots, just for you.

[Skittles]

130. honestly, ass kickings would not teach them anything

like I said, this Tiger Beat mentality will be over in 2017 - they will never accept the bullshit they have embraced from any other president

[Aerows]

136. Amen - Tiger Beat mentality

It's ridiculous, but I have to apologize that I don't think it is entirely unorganized. Bush had the same thing going on, too.

[Autumn]

139. Oh Tiger Beat. I loved that,

when I was an idiot teenager.

[Fumesucker]

145. One word

Hillary.

[Skittles]

165. ? what is that supposed to mean

I never supported Hillary because of her senseless war vote - I guess we can add HILLARY to the other silly deflections? OR are you saying the swooners would would have accepted the same kind of bullshit from Hillary? THAT would be dead on.

[Fumesucker]

176. The latter of course my dear ass kicking comrade

The crew will snap to and present arms if the USS Inevitable should make port on the Potomac.



I can just imagine the utter screaming bedlam this place will become.

Good Times!

[Skittles]

177. aw man

you skeered me for minute; I will commence with kicking my own ass.

[SMC22307]

317. "The crew will snap to and present arms if the USS Inevitable should make port on the Potomac."

[Aerows]

330. That was priceless. n/t

[SMC22307]

335. I'm still chuckling. :-)

The Sucker of Fumes has quite a way with words!

[LondonReign2]

245. Some for Hillary, perhaps, but not to this degree IMO

They are personally invested in this POTUS. He can take diametrically opposed positions on two consecutive days and they cheer equally loudly for both, with no realization (or seemingly at least no embarrassment) of their lack of conviction. Person over principles, POTUS over positions.

I suspect it won't be so cultish for Hillary, or at a minimum the players will change significantly.

[ProSense]

143. Damn, you guys are way too kewl.

[LondonReign2]

246. The ROFL of Desperation

Always the tell of a failed argument

[DisgustipatedinCA]

265. No. It's just improv to cover for a failed fax machine.

[Aerows]

322. Errrr eoooww errr

I think it is a surprise when it doesn't connect, for some

[Ghost Dog]

337. .

[Aerows]

137. PS

Notice how they have all piled in to attack cali, but not really attacking the policy, situation, or anything else.

[bvar22]

148. SOP for that crowd.

Because they got nuthin else.
It is just another sign of their desperation in trying to defend the indefensible.

[Skittles]

166. I have most of them on Ignore because I fnd them pitiful

it is difficult to have meaningful discussions with the equivalent of 5-year olds in the room screaming and stamping their feet

[bobduca]

171. It's crazy how the ignorables line up on all the republican issues

pro-nsa-security-state
pro-drones
pro-smearing snowden
pro-lying about greenwald
pro-smearing anyone who dares to appear to contradict WH press releases.

[Titonwan]

186. I can't do the ignore.

That means you can't see their comments, right? Why would you do that? If I see bull hockey, I'm gettin' the shovel.

[Skittles]

238. aw you know I enjoy a good fight

but these folk are just......it would be like trashing a 12 year old girl because she thinks Justin Bieber is the greatest performer ever, ya know?

[LondonReign2]

247. IMO, the real classification isn't republican issues

it's "whatever Obama is for, today". Because if Obama changes positions tomorrow, so will they.

[Aerows]

180. I agree, taking a nap. n/t

[Rex]

287. You will find most of the control freaks have no real platform to stand on

and that 99% of their posts are personal attacks against other DUers.

[Aerows]

308. Indeed.

Attack people, ignore the actual policy debate.

[Rex]

312. I'm so old, that I remember the days we actually had policy debates.

Back on DU1 and 2 we would have some great discussions. We still do, just have to trim the unwanted fat as it were.

[JVS]

274. You're way too optimistic about them coming back to their senses.

[Blue_In_AK]

118. Oh, how I love DU.

It's better than MMA.

[Aerows]

129. Me too

I love this

[Blue_In_AK]

141. There was a thread on Tuesday

that kept me entertained for about three hours in the Oakland airport.

[Aerows]

147. Glad to hear it

I love this place

[pa28]

125. And they also said NSA acted legally and the only way to fix it was elect a better Congress.

Guess that was all BS.

And by the way what about Ed Snowden? He's a whistleblower who pointed out a grievous wrong and his actions have led to reform. So where is his immunity deal?

[Aerows]

127. I think this needs to be bumped

It's extremely interesting.

[Douglas Carpenter]

133. that is true

[Coyotl]

134. Can you point us to comments of substance on today's address?

Oh wait, no one even replied to that thread.

[JoePhilly]

158. That's not the goal.

[Demo_Chris]

142. rec

[bvar22]

150. Thank You, cali.

DURec!

[bobduca]

159. Kick for making the right people angry and incoherent.

[Skittles]

170. it is entertaining, isn't it?

[bobduca]

173. Very!

Chrome's incognito mode is getting a workout tonight!

[Sheepshank]

163. the eagerest vociferations of the "I don't like Obama" crowd

are amusing as hell. Their postion that Obama sucks is continued and touted ever louder, regardless of any, ANY policy change, any clarifications, any historically accepted maneuverings, and laws being passed, any political wins against the RW...anything EVAH.

Stick that in you sour grapes.

ODS for sure on this one.

[Titonwan]

191. Thank you for your kind words

Valerie Jarret.

[Bradical79]

178. It's frustrating.

Honestly, I don't know what to say to someone with that kind of mindset anymore. The perceived victory for their favorite star is more important than right and wrong, the constitution, the fight for equality, fighting poverty, and so on. It's disturbing how big of fans these people are of Bush era (or older) plans that violate our constitutional rights, or supportive of war when they think it is what President Obama wants. It actually hurts the party more than any "purist" because it reenforces the idea that both parties are the same that a lot of people have.

President Obama is a very pragmatic politician (sometimes to his detriment) and tends to carefully think things over. I knew that before I voted for him. While this is sometimes detrimental as the politically smart policy isn't always good for us (like the TPP) it can lead to positive changes like greater support for same sex marriage, or not rashly into a Syrian civil war. Unfortunately, his more cultish previously pro-NSA and pro-WAR (and currently free trade fans) go full on neocon in support of their hero when he faces legit criticism for a conservative or authoritarian leaning policy. When did being against domestic spying programs, wanting our constitutional rights protected, wanting socialized healthcare, or being against demonstrably damaging secretive free trade agreements make one either a far right libertarian operative or far left communist extremist?

[LondonReign2]

250. +1

You ask:When did being against domestic spying programs, wanting our constitutional rights protected, wanting socialized healthcare, or being against demonstrably damaging secretive free trade agreements make one either a far right libertarian operative or far left communist extremist?

But of course you answered yourself to start with: [When] The perceived victory for their favorite star is more important than right and wrong, the constitution, the fight for equality, fighting poverty, and so on.

[jazzimov]

179. No offense, but I've noticed a "black & white" attitude

among many here, you included.

All issues have shades of grey, and some more so than others. Some DUers don't seem to be able to handle or even comprehend those shades of grey and require a "black or white" decision on all matters important to THEM. Otherwise, they tend to blame it on the strangest things, such as a "cult of adoration".

Such an attitude of "us vs them" has been perfected by the RW, and it is a RW view and standpoint. This is why I have accused many here of using RW tactics - because they are. I have to admit that many of these RW tactics are effective, although they tend to be very close-minded.

You see what you choose to see.

[Fumesucker]

181. A lot of us spent time looking at right wing forums during Dick n' Dubya's Excellent Adventure

It's uncanny the way Dubya was ~always~ correct about absolutely *everything* in their eyes, they even coined an insulting term for people who didn't share their view.

Bush Derangement Syndrome.

I had a bad case of that.

[Titonwan]

200. Oh it's now here too.

Any criticism of Barack Obama is sacrilege! If you do- you gotsa da ODS an thangs.
I knew (and Glenn Greenwald confirmed it) that when he failed his promise to block the 'new & improved®' FISA bill- he was going to be a total fuckin' sellout.
And I was right.
If I learned anything from Chris Hedges, Jeremy Scahill, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald or any clear thinker is that you have got to hold all people in power to account- regardless of mindless devotion for the 'team' (kee!).

[SaveOurDemocracy]

183. Hot off the 'Talking Points' press.

[Number23]

187. Hateful thread. I've never supported the NSA or the Patriot Act and I still think this thread

is needlessly nasty.

But you did expose the folks here that revel in this type of of Grade A Bullshit (notice the folks supporting this thread complete with sub threads of "oooooh cali, you pissed off the wrong people!1&quot so thanks for putting the spotlight on them. You're just about the only person in the world that actually is.

[Hekate]

223. +1

There really is a lot of nasty and divisive language aimed at fellow DUers being tossed around -- it's spread pretty widely in GD right now, but with a high concentration in this thread.

Whatever for?

[Number23]

225. The insults and personal attacks outnumber the recs considerably. And it ain't the president's

supporters doing any of the tossing.

[Marr]

293. Bullshit. You've aggressively attacked NSA critics and whistleblowers.

Now do your little tap dance and tell me that doesn't mean you support the NSA, or Obama's NSA policies.

[Rex]

302. I think the crybaby act is because this thread hits home to about 5 or 6 people

and you can tell who they are by how much they cry about this thread! Of course you are right, they are total hypocrites and I am glad to see most people on DU see that too.

[Number23]

340. Jesus Christ. NOT YOU AGAIN

I don't owe you a DAMN THING and have asked you a hundred times to leave me alone and put on ignore. This post of yours, so full of nothing but lies, blatant stupidity with a dash of needless hostility, is EXACTLY why.

I am SERIOUSLY sick of this. If you keep this up, I will report you to the admins. I am serious. Your comments are abusive, WRONG, ignorant and unwanted. This is the last time I am going to ask. If it's more important to you to stalk people that have told you REPEATEDLY to leave them alone than to have a clean slate with the admins, then keep this shit up. There are a million people here that won't mind dealing with your ignorant hostility. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM.

[Marr]

346. That might have been the saddest attempt at changing the subject I've ever seen.

Again, your claim to not supporting the administration's NSA policies is obvious bullshit. By the way-- this is exactly the reason I don't use ignore. If someone posts bullshit, it ought to be pointed out.

And please, PLEASE-- report me to the admins for responding to you twice in... what? Two months or more(?)... on a public message board. Post their laughing responses here as well, if you don't mind.

[Number23]

347. I have no need to change the subject. The subject has always been the same

when it comes to you which is to PUT ME ON IGNORE. I do not care what you think about anything. You are one of the most hateful, dishonest people here (which your post has proven YET AGAIN) and I WANT YOU TO LEAVE ME ALONE.

Jesus christ your life must be absolutely full of misery to have to chase after people that despise you and have begged you to leave them alone.

[Marr]

350. ...

You're boring. You've got nothing but ad hominem attacks and bullshit.

You've vociferously defended the administration's NSA policies in the past, contrary to your claim. Good night.

[Number23]

351. I've not defended the NSA ONCE. But this is EXACTLY the type of lying garbage that you are

well known for around here. I have no interest in you, your positions, your thoughts or your beliefs. About anything.

PUT ME ON IGNORE.

[Marr]

354. No. /nt

[Number23]

355. Even the jury has seen through what you're trying to do. We'll see what Skinner says next

[Marr]

356. What are you talking about? /nt

[sabrina 1]

360. Doesn't everyone have an ignore feature? Lol. I was given the same order, so were others.

I suggested 'why don't you put ME on ignore, I don't do ignore and I don't take orders either'. I didn't get why someone was ordering me to do so, if THEY were the one who wanted it. And then I got it! What an act.

Same old routine, boring is right. Just for the record, you are one of the most valued people here, someone who actually contributes worthwhile content. I know it goes without saying, but as you said, when someone is posting BS someone has to point it out.

[Marr]

361. That's very kind of you. :D

Not sure I deserve it, but you certainly do. I always enjoy your posts.

[Union Scribe]

353. They pull that act with everyone.

I can't count how often I've seen that same strange set of insults and accusations aimed at different posters.

[Marr]

357. I thought I'd seen those accusations of stalking before.

I *think* I remember responding to one of this person's posts a couple of months ago... or so. Same response then. Crazy demands to control my ignore list, open accusations of stalking, etc., etc.

If it's meant to bully people into not responding, it's not very smart.

[sabrina 1]

359. You're wasting your time. I see the same old 'leave me alone' and 'you're stalking me' routine.

I think it's a copy and paste 'leave me alone'. Then there is nasty third party routine where you will become the target of nasty attacks, but spoken ABOUT you to someone else. Which I am demonstrating now because like so many others, I do not wish to engage that person, having done so for a while and realized that life is too short. And she talks about people being nasty.

If you need any assistance, which I doubt, with the admins, this little subthread has been repeated time and time again, the same attacks on people simply because they have a difference of opinion.

Everyone is stalking, every else is nasty, mean, etc. Not worth a minute of your valuable time.

[Number23]

366. It's so cute to see 3 of the FOUR people that I've repeatedly asked to put me on ignore

all lining up like quacking ducks to show everyone here exactly WHY they have been asked to do so. This is absolutely BRILLIANT. I could not have planned this better myself. The other person had the decency to do as I asked instead of following me around.

What you guys don't seem to understand is that people have the right to ask people that do absolutely nothing but hound, harass and chase them around to leave them alone. Nothing but personal attacks from all of you and bewildering idiocy which is why this is the first time I've responded to you in like two years, though to your credit you appeared to have backed off until this post. And let's be honest here, I am one of SEVERAL people that routinely asked you to leave them alone or have told you they won't respond to you. Your rep here is well known.

If you were all here in good faith as you pretend, then my request should have been no big deal and you would have complied. But like the lecherous old coot at the end of the bar that won't leave the ladies alone even after being REPEATEDLY asked to do so, here you are. Following me around, responding to me or responding to others ABOUT me and alerting on my posts. I got jury reports from multiple people, many of whom said that they had to take the folks you seem to love so much off of ignore to see who it was that I was responding to.

THIS is EXACTLY why all three of you have been asked to put me on ignore. Thanks so much for showcasing so perfectly exactly why that's happened. I honestly could not have orchestrated this any better.

Edit: Just remembered there was a fifth person, a person who noted that once he realized that I posted in the BOG that he "should have put me on ignore" which I BEGGED him to do in one thread. That's it, darling. FIVE, really 4.5. Blows that old "oh, she does that to everyone" routine into the trash heap where it belongs.

It's not that I disagree with you four. There are lots of people here that I disagree with, sometimes quite passionately. But the combination of the most headscratchingly needless behavior including stalking, coming out of nowhere to launch personal attacks (see this thread), unprovoked hostility, and massive and ongoing disagreements with reality is what's put you guys on that special list. You guys are Ever So Special.

[sabrina 1]

367. I asked you to put me on ignore, please do so. That is all I have to say to you.

[Number23]

368. You've never asked me to and I've never needed to. You don't say anthing I find interesting

or intelligent which is why, as I stated, this the first time I've responded to you in practically two years. Doing another two (or ten) will be as easy as the first two.

[sabrina 1]

369. Please do not address me again. I asked you to use your ignore feature years ago.

You refused to do so. Now please stop stalking me, with your third party comments etc. commenting on whatever it is that is so uninteresting you find the need to comment to others on. I will appreciate not being addressed or commented on by you from now on.

Thank you ...

[Number23]

370. But weren't you the one braying upthread about how sooooo terribly weird it was

for someone to ask you to put THEM on ignore when like, they could just put YOU on ignore??!

Welcome to my world, honeylamb. And it's so terribly interesting to me that you CHOSE to enter this thread (a day late and a dollar short, to boot) with the "yeah, that person keeps asking people to put them on ignore" as if that was just the wackiest thing you've ever heard but now, somehow, it was YOU that requested that *I* put you on ignore??! You are a constant source of (unintentional and head scratching) hilarity.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

363. If you have a refutation of the original premise, let's hear it.

If you just want to stand on the sidelines and wait for a post that let's you pretend you're getting the vapors, GD should provide you with hours of entertainment. So far as I know, the OP didn't specifically accuse you of anything. But an accusation was leveled, and neither you nor anyone else here can refute it, because it's verifiably true. END.

[Skip Intro]

201. Very cultish, indeed.

Was so from the beginning.

The fact that many of them insisted (and still do) on harassing and insulting those that don't join their chorus of blind faith and robotic praise should have been a big neon sign of what was to come.

[ucrdem]

210. I thought it was all about "protecting the 4th" and didn't matter that the perps are RWNJs?

Now it's about Obama again? You guys really need to get your stories straight.




p.s. yes this is sarcasm.

[DeSwiss]

213. Dang Cali......

...I couldn't have put it better myself!

- K&R!

[Scootaloo]

214. It's not just this

Remember Syria? Remember DU's response? I'm sure you do cali, but for the others here...

1) Someone - we're still not sure who dropped a chemical weapon in Syria, killing over four hundred and injuring a thousand.

2) The president vowed a stern response to send a message that the world will not tolerate... You know the soundbite string.

3) Dozens of DU'ers rallied around the President (not that one, this one) and began howling for the blood of Arabs. Which means it was probably Tuesday.

4) it got to be SUCH a mess that the Barack Obama Group - a conclave of DU pro-war violent extremism at the time - had to announce all its threads as fanservice threads and a reminder that the mods there would brook no argument against the march to war.

5) Meanwhile John Kerry is parading around Europe, making facile comparisons between Assad and Hitler, and chiding the EU for not backing an attack on Syria. because a good way to get Europe on your side is to yell "hitler!" and accuse them of appeasing whoever it is. The UK backs down and we're left yelping about a unilateral strike anyway, when the stars are right, just you wait and see!

6) DU'ers continue to howl about the necessity of immediate war to "teach them a lesson," even as it is explained by multitudes who don't store their brains in their colons, all the reasons it's a hideously bad idea (some of us suffered severe flashbacks from 2002 during this...)

7) Assad seizes on an off-the-cuff statement from Kerry, and offers to relinquish its chemical weapons. Kerry and the White House mumble about how they weren't REALLY offering, DU's pro-war swamp trolls scream Admiral Akbar's line over and over again and proceed to accuse other DU'ers of loving piles of dead people and eating babies and kicking dogs and whatnot.

8) in the end, the administration tells Assad, "well... okay, i guess..." and the sane portion of the world breathed a sigh of relief. On DU, the exact same people who had, five minutes prior been screaming for war and mayhem are suddenly cheering the president for his "masterwork diplomacy."

it's really baffling. I like the president - at least as much as i can like a US president. I agree with him on most things. But the rabid fans? These people just make me sigh and shake my head.

[Maedhros]

216. Excellent summary and recap.[n/t]

[NuclearDem]

217. God, no kidding. The revisionism about Syria was just fucking shameful.

[joshcryer]

220. Utterly dishonest revisionism.

Shameful. I remember the BOG accusations. I went there. I did not see that rallying for war shit, and I know you can't produce proof for it because it simply didn't fucking happen.

[Hekate]

230. Thank you, joshcryer

wtf is going on here?

[joshcryer]

248. TBH, I thought it was plausible.

But when those slanders were flying around I went to the BOG and I read every single fucking post and not one, not fucking one, advocated for war. Not. A. Single. One.

It was bullshit that BOGers were slandered in that way. If those posters posted under their real names they'd have at minimum slander or libel lawsuits to the trash talking anonymous twirps who made shit up about them.

[Ghost Dog]

242. No, josh. Scootaloo's summary is accurate.

(Although without mentioning the Russian, for example, international factor)...

And, the UK did not 'back down', exactly. A free unwhipped parliamentary debate and vote was held (broadcast and streamed live to any national and international audience) on the subject of attacking Syria alongside USA. The result was a resounding negative.

[joshcryer]

244. Yeah? Show me ONE BOG post advocating for war.

ONE. It's simple. I am literally lowering the bar so low that if you have one iota of sincerity you can do it. One post Ghost Dog. One.

ONE. O. N. E. ONE!

It is fucking atrocious how pathetically convoluted the so called "purists" re-imagine posts here. They don't even give one fuck about being truthful. They invent their own bullshit realities.

[Ghost Dog]

249. Ok. Sorry, josh, if there's any inaccuracy... I never frequent the BOG

(I have no vote in US politics). But I refer to what was being posted here in DU in general, from whatever group or forum, at the time.

And... please don't try to tell me that even the cleanest, most surgical military attack on another country, not in immediate self-defense and without UN approval, is not an act of war (with your Congress's formal approval or not).

[joshcryer]

251. It is an act of war and a war crime.

I have been 100% consistent on this issue. But the slanders against the Barack Obama Group (BOG) are total bullshit lies. If I believed otherwise I would distance myself away from that group. I assure you that it is 100% false what is being said. I closely watched the BOG because at the time they were being shit on by the PSYOP / right wing infiltrators here as being pro-war. It became totally clear to me at the time that the BOG was purely hated by the right wing posters here without anything to back it up.

BOG isn't heavily trafficked. You can go back a half dozen or so pages and see the Syria posts. They were 100% neutral and 95% supportive of the President. A lot of BOGers were having internal conflicts over it. And if you search their individual names and this site in Google you'll find the vast majority of posters there were against military action. It is total revisionism and bullshit to ascribe a pro-war sentiment to the BOGers.

And yes, I say this with 100% confidence because I personally did this. I wanted to see positions and test where things were heading and I found that even Obama supporters were against it, and I suspect even the administration did something similar and found that it was a bad move, which is why diplomacy was broached.

[Ghost Dog]

257. It is an act of war and a war crime.

You have indeed been 100% consistent on that issue. Hence you are a name here I recognise and respect.

Give me time to read this thread and follow... amongst all the other tasks pending today <g>.

[stevenleser]

318. Yep, you and me both. I was very much against attacking Syria.

I think the difference between anti-war boggers and other DUers who were anti-war is that we weren't gratuitous in our attacks on the President during that whole thing.

[Puglover]

255. What a brilliant post!

I wish I cared enough or had the energy to write such a thing on DU but I simply don't anymore. And if I did it wouldn't be a 10th as well written!

Thanks!

[demmiblue]

267. That has to sting.

[stevenleser]

284. No. I am one of many BOGgers who was against attacking Syria.

Your comment is an attempt at revisionist history.

[L0oniX]

289. You are going to piss off the worshippers ...they will be alert stalking you.

[joshcryer]

218. Obama will not be "reigning in" the NSA.

Ridiculous.

Those who believe that the NSA is going to change for the better after Snowden's revelations are suckers. The NSA will find better ways to get around any roadblocks placed, if any are placed at all.

[bobduca]

292. These two Bush appointees will sort it out, naturally!

[L0oniX]

296. +1

[Ghost Dog]

336. "ways to get around any roadblocks"

¿cough eg. via gchq cough?

[joshcryer]

344. redefining terms

like how scouring the entire internet for data is 'merely' looking at 'metadata'

they'll always find a way to obfuscate

[Egalitarian Thug]

224. Now I understand the reason for that nonsense, word salad thread. Thanks. n/t

[bobduca]

290. Clown Dance Party

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024350866

[Savannahmann]

227. My favorite part.

Was when we were told that from now on the NSA will need a warrant when we have been told from day one that they only look at the data when they have a warrant. What this is really doing is slapping a new coat of paint on the same old crap.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

229. Most of the people I've heard praising the NSA are terrified of spiders too.

[marble falls]

252. A well thought out opinion with nuance that blistering critics from both parties can ignore.....

like I've said before, I wish I had one half of your spirit and smarts.

[randome]

253. Very few were 'vociferous'.

Most simply pointed out that revealing the metadata collection -which we knew about since 2007- and revealing that we spy in other countries -which we knew about since, like, forever- was not worth the international intrigue and hand-wringing that went on ever since Snowden 'took the money and ran'.

In the end it doesn't matter what 'version' of the NSA one ascribes to, there was enough noise and enough people who demanded change so it was inevitable that changes would occur.

What is interesting to me, however, is how many DUers are not happy to have gotten what they wanted.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

[Progressive dog]

254. No they aren't,

and the President ordered exactly zero NSA employees arrested. It's even worse than that, the changes he made won't even end the storage of metadata. The NSA will still be able to do the stuff it has been doing, and to do it in secret.
There is no reason to "laud the President for reining it in." He was just doing the job that he was elected to do, I voted for him and I would do it again.

[Enthusiast]

259. Way to go, cali!

Kicked and recommended.

Disturbing and pathetic and it's just not healthy.

[BumRushDaShow]

260. Ahh jeez

[DCBob]

261. I think the attitude of the people you are criticising is simply this is not a hair-on-fire issue.

Aggressive surveillance, though somewhat invasive, is necessary. Of course there are issues and problems with a program like this. There will always be reforms and modifications and improvements needed. Obama is dong the best he can to balance security with personal privacy... imo.

[stupidicus]

263. that was predictable, wasn't it?

as was noted from the beginning -- and argued to those clowns -- any changes made indicates they were on the wrong side of this history.

It's the same thing on the SS/chained-cpi front. Apparently all those congresspeople appealing to BHO about forgetting about it are just irrational racist and gullible BHO-haters too.

I'd say at the very least it indicates the political acumen and foresight rivaling that of the average rightwingnut, which more often than not, has that of an earthworm.

and they earned the same amount of respect, etc, that the rightwingnuts have as a result. They are every bit as cult-like as they are.

thanks for reminding them

[randome]

268. One difference remains, however.

No one is calling you a clown.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[stevenleser]

269. Nope. I defended the administration and there are no significant changes now. Just as I said

there would not be. There are cosmetic changes designed to calm the furor, that's it.

The governments of the world are too concerned with missing something that would prevent the next terrorist attack to stop the surveillance. That's not a US issue. In fact, as has been repeatedly revealed, a surprising amount of the world's governments feed the US and our NSA data and have us use that to help them with their fight against terrorism.

[L0oniX]

294. 20,000 security letters and how many terrorist have they caught?

Fortunately for them and their job security ...none ...and if they have ...it is a secret. ...right?

[woo me with science]

272. K&R for exposing the dishonesty and absurdity of the propaganda. nt

[L0oniX]

273. "cult of adoration" indeed but the worshippers can't see that.

[Marr]

279. That's because they're salesmen.

They have an account to service. What position they take on any given day depends on what's best for the client, not what's consistent.

[Rex]

281. K&R for pissing off all the right people!

I love watching control freaks have a meltdown! I wish you could do this every day cali...it is priceless watching them flip flop all over each other like fish out of water! HAHAHAHAHA!

[bobduca]

286. "The Right People"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10024350866&info=1#recs

[Rex]

304. Well you can see them crying like babies in this thread, I guess getting exposed for being

huge hypocrites can do that to a person.

[bobduca]

305. bog doth protest too much

[Rex]

306. ...

[treestar]

328. That sounds like hatred

of people who don't see things the same way you do.

[Rex]

329. Of course it does to you.

I would expect it to be seen in no other way by you then that.

[arely staircase]

327. we can always count on you to bring people together nt

[Number23]

343. If by people you mean "braying mules" then you're exactly right

All of this hatred for 135 recs. Not the OPs best effort, despite the snarling high fives and attacks within.

Really nasty, really needless thread. But I sure got a hell of a laugh though when I saw that someone here who does nothing but post 8 word posts (with four of the words within being frequently misspelled) running around bragging about putting people on ignore as if the ones on ignore are being somehow punished by missing their ungrammatical and needless missives. I mean, that's just kind of funny.

[arely staircase]

345. I have to admit to kinda liking cali

it is complicated and difficult to explain. but this is her at her worst shit stirring.

[yurbud]

352. If someone takes both positions, is more likely they are paid to do so

[woo me with science]

371. I am so fricking proud of DU lately.

Exposure after exposure, smackdown after smackdown, of the lying propaganda machine.

It's a beautiful sight.

[sabrina 1]

372. It is, isn't it? So refreshing to see the truth win out over the propaganda

so often lately.