General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis entire NSA debate is based on a false premise.
We have been programmed by the Republican Party, with the help of the national media, to think it is all about protecting our country from terrorists. That is the false premise.
In September of 2001, the NSA had all the information they needed to prevent a terrorist attack. They had received several memos and warnings about possible attacks. But the Republican leadership ignored them.
So, rather than accept responsibility for the worst terrorist attack in our country's history, they had to create a false narrative to fight their "war on terror". They needed more tools to fight this war on Al Qaeda and the Taliban, they said. They needed to disregard the Geneva Convention in order to torture prisoners for information.
There was no need for the American people to give up their 4th Amendment rights. There was no need for the government to accumulate vast amounts of personal information on every American. There was no need to build a huge information center in Utah to process all this information.
But it was all part of the effort to shield Bush and Cheney and the Republican Party from the blame of the terrorist attack of 9/11. With the help of the corporate media, they were successful in diverting attention or blame from themselves.
Now, more than a dozen years later, the "war on terror" has become a part of our culture. Even Democratic Presidents come forth to declare the necessity of spying on Americans. Although there is not one incident that they can find to show they have stopped even one terrorist act, they continue to build upon this Republican lie.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)All the arguments about how collecting massive data is to keep us safe are all BS. The same thing with the TSA. Reports on both say that neither has stopped any terrorist attack, so why do people continue to support them, especially here? More importantly than why some people are disingenuous at best, is what's the real reason these programs exist? I believe a lot of it is because they're a way to get taxpayer money to friends of politicians but there are other reasons.
ybbor
(1,554 posts)Use a boogie man tactic to funnel fed monies into their and their buddies wallets. They are against federal government spending unless they are getting a cut. The apathy and passivity of the population at large is so disheartening. What was at one time a country with great promise has turned into a new gilded age with a public too enamored by the shiny objects (reality shows about nothing, et al) to even know how bad they are being played. The younger generation needs to wake up and start paying attention to what really is important to get our nation back on that promising path we were on again. The argument that you have nothing to worry about if your "clean" is bunk. It's who decides what "clean" means that is scary. Ok I'm done.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Since the Twin Towers.
You speak the TRUTH.
Titonwan
(785 posts)There were three towers. That one way outta of the way of the crash site needs some splainin' Lucy. One day people are gonna wake up. About the time their ten o'clock prune juice is served, probably.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Demolition squad took it down. How can you keep up appearances if you keep bringing number 7 up?
1000words
(7,051 posts)I think you underestimate the willful complicity of the Democratic Party (see Good cop/Bad cop) but you are no fool, for sure.
Rec'd
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)reACTIONary
(5,770 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)You think that's all the NSA does? What about human trafficking? International money laundering? Organ trafficking? Pedophile rings? What about India expressing gratitude recently for the NSA giving them information about a terrorist attack in their country?
Please. It was never solely about terrorism threats against the U.S. That was just the lazy answer to why the NSA exists.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
kentuck
(111,080 posts)"I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong."
I have a bunch of 'em!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)the FISA courts and Total Information Awareness.
randome
(34,845 posts)They don't even stop to think about what else they monitor because they think terrorism will instantly resolve all disputes. They do a piss-poor job of explaining their jobs.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]
pscot
(21,024 posts)Thanks.
Gman
(24,780 posts)This infamously disregarded memo was put together without the Patriot Act.
FSogol
(45,481 posts)kentuck
(111,080 posts)Why do you think they call it "meta-data"?
Do you disagree with the entire post?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/in-aclu-lawsuit-scientist-demolishes-nsa-its-just-metadata-excuse/
just one example
Egnever
(21,506 posts)it assumes more information is known than would be available from phone call records alone.
It assumes one would know that the number for the gynecologist was a gynecologist. something that can be traced back to be sure but not something readily apparent from the meta data. It assumes one knows that the caller was female,also not readily aparent from meta data.It assumes one would know that the man was a male also not readily apparent, and it also assumes one would know that the number was for a family planning center.
Obviously all of this can be gleaned from going back and putting info to numbers but the meta data by itself does not provide any of that.
The value of the meta data to the NSA is once they find a bad guy they can go back and put faces to all the meta data he is connected to. One could certainly argue they could do it to everyone but of course that would be so time consuming as to be logistically impossible at this point. Forget about a human actually reviewing it. It would also be illegal even under current NSA provisiions.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)They would know, re: "to whom".
If you're determined not to "get it" then you're not worth my time.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)This is probably the last reply I'll bother giving you tonight. I've got better things to do.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)You seem very confused maybe you need a nap?
Both are saying the meta data does not contain identifying information. Your paranoid hypothetical assumes much more knowledge than the meta data by itself provides.
Titonwan
(785 posts)You have no idea how insidious 'metadata' analysis is. The absolute WORST part is they're storing this to use later, if you happen to piss someone off with a top secret clearance. They can ruin you and no one would be the wiser. People such as yourself makes this situation truly frightening. Blindly defending the indefensible.
As you can see from my posting numbers, I ain't about to address a fool much. Bye!
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)1) All the information you talk about "tracing back" is a part of the public record. As a private citizen with internet access and a credit card, you can give me a phone number, and I can tell you who owns it in 2 minutes, and a whole lot about them in 2 more minutes. If you have any questions about how effective these things are, just visit Spokeo. Take that public record data, add in the meta data, throw in a ton of money to hire database experts to automatically match up the information from various sources, and putting together that picture in regards to any individual you have a name, address, or phone number for becomes child's play.
2) Added to that, the meta data includes where calls were made from, I believe. A whole added layer of available information to build that picture on.
3) The issue isnt that they will add up all of these items and use them against every single citizen simultaneously. Given a good database and full access to metadata, it wouldn't take very long at all to put it together on any given citizen that they care to cause trouble for. And that's the issue. Say I protest the NSA effectively enough to be on their metaphorical radar. How hard would it be for them to use metadata to put together a record of my dating history. Or my fathers hoarding habits. Or whatever else they think might be embarrassing enough to have an effect on my behavior or reputation. Then it becomes a simple matter to put out stories about boxes in my garage, or what have you. Or, if I am an A-type congressman with a gambling habit, looking at reelection, even easier to blackmail me.
4) all of this is predicated on the idea that the NSA only collects "metadata". Which is a fairly laughable assumption to make at this point.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)If the NSA collects my Google searches, they know exactly what my personal concerns are -- health, religious, political, knitting, gardening, you name it, they can see precisely what I am interested in.
And they are collecting our Google searches and other internet searches and data. It is a terrible intrusion on our privacy just to be collecting and holding that data.
this exaggeration is needed to prove we live in a police state!
Still I am happy that this debate is being had it needs to be had. There is nothing wrong with trying to ensure this data is used correctly and not abused.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)I remember when ignorance was something to be cured, to clung to and proudly shouted for all to hear.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)quakerboy
(13,920 posts)were they collecting when they had people in World of Warcraft?
I believe its been fairly well established that they are collecting far more than metadata. They just play word games. They may record every call you make, but as long as they dont listen to them, they dont count it as having been "collected".
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Technology evolves.
In 2001 the internet was still in its infancy. Major businesses still had no web presence. At the beginning of 2001 according to This site there were roughly 350 million users as of 20012 there were 7 billion.
That is a sea change in the way the world communicates. The idea that what worked in 2001 will still work in 2013 just because it is only a little more than ten years later ignores this reality.
I am not going to argue that the patriot act was warranted I was completely against it when it happened. But that does not negate the fact that as communications evolve new ways of tracking criminals need to evolve as well.
Texting only started to to become available in 1998 in the US according to wikipedia that is only 3 years prior to 9-11 that in itself is a change that was in no way covered under the law in 2001.
The internet is changing how the world communicates and law enforcement needs to be able to keep up with those changes.
I am all for going over the patriot act with a fine tooth comb and looking for avenues of abuse and blocking them but the idea that we should base our security on the technology of 2001 is pure idiocy.
Also of course no one points to the successes as that tips the hand to others using the same means to plot.
It is not an easy balance to strike and pretending it is is ridiculous.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)...and they should have no reason to have your name on any list of any kind. You are still deserving of privacy. With technology, they should be able to be much more exclusive, rather than inclusive. But, the problem is that nobody knows what they have, not even the Congress of the United States. They lie.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)The idea they shouldn't have your name on a list of any kind is more simplistic thinking. The IRS knows damn near everything about you and has for nearly your entire life. Good luck getting your name off that list.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)The IRS is not using your information as a possible terrorist suspect.
As for the Patriot Act, they haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb. That is the problem and the origin of the disinformation and lies.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)for that either.
Unless of course you are a Terrorist or tied to other criminal activity.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Is it good tradecraft to reveal that in such a public way?
Egnever
(21,506 posts)What great input you have contributed!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Quotes please.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)That's good to know, thanks.
I'm curious, the Founders who did that Fourth Amendment thing - what was up with that? I'm guessing they had something to hide themselves - what's your take?
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)that this didn't help foil any terrorist plot. As for criminal activity, we have laws (and a constitution) to make it not easy to gather "evidence" and arrest people, and there are really good reasons for that. Now, this data has been given to the DEA, then they create "parallel" evidence and arrest people. Those people can't defend themselves at all, because they have no access to the evidence.
The basic problem is this: when someone has too much power, it get abused. That's why we moved away from kings and emperors. Hell, we see it now that police have riot gear, tasers, and other weapons that that power gets abused. Giving the government access to huge amounts of metadata is an is arguably a much bigger threat in that is gives them, potentially, a whole lot of power that can be abused.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)2naSalit
(86,570 posts)that not very many people really KNOW what metadata be.
A good example would be to go to some electronic map (I learned what it was when I was learning about electronic cartography via ESRI products) and click around the tabs. There should be one somewhere that says meta or metadata, you will see that it is usually up to a full page of info that describes in text everything that is on the image, it's just the text version.
So that would mean, basically (elementarily, really) everything that is found in the "other file" whether it's sound or image only without the visual or sound included. There is nothing innocuous about it since it will identify the source location (coordinates and coordinate type) of all features of the file, and the phone numbers what was said by whom or at least a summary of the conversation along with all the other finer particulars of the "event".
The only reason to have the actual sound file of a phone conversation is for the voice ID. There's a sh*tload of there there. If somebody wanted to hit you with a drone, say, all they have to do is enter in the live metadata and you're toast... or ashes.
it could be anything you want it to be but it isnt.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/17/technology/security/obama-metadata-nsa/
It's information wireless carriers collect about where, when and to whom customers make phone calls. It doesn't include any recordings of the actual phone call itself.
The metadata can contain phone numbers, the time and duration of calls and the location of the caller and the recipient.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)Obama suggested today that they should do away with "friends" of "friends" of the callers and the recipients and only take it to two levels.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I listened to the speech as well.
2naSalit
(86,570 posts)there's a considerable amount of omission in that statement. What good is all the other stuff without content? I don't buy the seeming innocence it implies. But that's just me, I'm not as conditioned as I should be I guess.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)When you identify a bad guy and go back and connect that meta data to actual people. I dont understand why that is hard to comprehend.
neverforget
(9,436 posts)Why collect intelligence on everybody when 99.99% of it is useless to any investigation?
Egnever
(21,506 posts)The reaction can much much swifter than waiting for the companies to comply or not comply. Would be my first guess.
A warrant is already required what difference does it make who is holding the records?
neverforget
(9,436 posts)It's none of their business what I am doing. Besides, having too much data is just as bad, if not worse, than having too little. Companies have to supply all the requested data by a warrant. I don't see why the government would want it all. One thing is for sure, this can be abused very easily. Imagine if we get a President Christie who likes to punish opponents? Are you comfortable with a Republican having all this data? I'm not now and I certainly has hell wouldn't be with a Republican President.
And that warrant about getting metadata? The ruling used to justify sweeping up all the metadata of Americans is Smith v Maryland. However, that case was about an individual (a robber) and not a government surveillance program. That's a gigantic difference in scale as in an individual vs ALL Americans.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)and that most people try to follow them.
No system will be perfect. I am all for looking at this as critically as possible and making laws to protect law abiding citizens from intrusion.
I dont agree that meta data collection is a personal intrusion.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)easier to spy on you, smear you, etc.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that they only access the content is they have some sort of warrant or other specific permission to do so. But just knowing the timing, parties and locations of the parties to the call is too much information for the government to have.
It was interesting to me that Obama gave as an example of a pioneer in American intelligence, Paul Revere.
If the British had been collecting the metadata on Paul Revere's rides and activities, we would not be a nation today. I'm not suggesting that we need a revolution. But I am suggesting that our Constitution was written by men who remembered the American revolution and wanted to protect themselves against precisely the sort of heavy-handed surveillance that the NSA is practicing today.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I guess it depends on if you were british or a colonist at the time when it comes to your perspective on how that would have worked out.
Lets change it to Texas and them wanting to secede from the union. Would should they be allowed to do that and would stopping them from doing so if one thinks it would be a good idea to do so be a god thing? Would tracking people attempting to make something like that come about be a good or bad thing?
I am not sure of the answer my self.
This is not a black and white subject in my opinion.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)probable cause and a warrant.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment
We are to be secure in our persons, houses, papers and effects . . . .
I use the internet in my house. If I want to use it to communicate with the government, I will address my communication directly to the government.
The difference here as far as the government is concerned and the difference I see is. The data is not tied to you until they tie it to you. If that makes any sense.
It is not personal until they get the warrant to make it so. That is the difference as I see it.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)as individuals until they have a warrant. But the opportunities for abuse are too tempting for me.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I am with you if you want to limit the abuse. I agree the discussions being had on this are healthy and needed. This is dangerous territory and safeguards need to be as strong as we can make them to ensure the data is not abused.
But that data is out there regardless. A google employee could read your emails as easy or easier than the NSA.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)2naSalit
(86,570 posts)metadata isn't personal since it would very likely include the individual's name to the phone acct or addresses where it is located via the GPS unit in it. There is a GPS unit in every cell phone, it's used quite often even by ski patrol folks to locate lost skiers, like very often. the sane with lost folks in most any place... even if you have a cheap prepay phone with no name on the acct. the location of its regular placement, like your home, is in the meta and probably includes who lives where. And with content... well.
And I watched that press conf with the "other" whistle-blowers today, the take home message there was that YOU DO NOT GET TO KNOW OR DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG in this, it is arbitrary at best and depends on who is interested in what/where.whom you have contact with, period. And they have access to that regardless. And I don't trust the president getting up and saying he's on it and then nothing changes because that's what's gonna be what happens... lip service
Try googling yourself sometime and see how much google knows about you just from your web surfing or whenever something you wrote online has your name attached. You can be tracked down by anyone online.
It's getting pretty creepy.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)We cannot permit these secret courts to be the only oversight on this dangerous policy. The Congress needs much more oversight over the secret courts, in my opinion. Anyway, I think the Constitution probably gives the Congress the right to declare war, even wars on terrorism. That power should not be in the hands of secret courts, in the first place. We should rid ourselves of these "star chambers".
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Anyone that thinks they only collect innocent meta data should ask themselves some questions. Why just meta data? what good does only meta data do? It's only good to keep tabs on known suspects, not to find new ones. You don't need a FISA court to issue search warrants for known suspects and you need more than meta data to find unknown terrorists.
Anyone that thinks they aren't at the very least listening for key words is only fooling themselves and needs to educate themselves. Check on the DEA connection for a start, the evidence is out there, then get back to us.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Thank you.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)it increases the odds we will miss what we really need to find.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)that "This entire NSA debate is based on a false premise", I have to disagree with your analysis.
Although I agree that we had most of the data that we needed to avoid the tragedy of 9/11 and that our administration ignored the evidence until it was too late.
But don't forget the old adage "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone ISN'T out to get you..."
First of all, nobody is spying on Americans except for the corporations that ask you to "click here if you agree". Does anyone actually read any of this before clicking on "I agree"? Basically, they can sell your info to anyone they want - including the Federal Government. It's just that the Fed's tend not to pay. If they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The released NSA documents show that unequivocally. You're just arguing over what the meaning of "is" is.
"They're not spying on Americans, they're just accumulating huge files of behavioral data on them. It's totally different!!"
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)There is only one thing better than huge government contracts where the government takes money from every citizen and hands it directly over to mega-corporations, thereby eliminating all that fuss with marketing, accounts receivable, and such.
The only thing better is when government can take an unlimited amount of money, funnel it through secret budgets that no elected official really ever sees, and give it to corporations without the slightest bit of oversight or accountability. That is as good as it gets, folks.
The only way it gets better is to not have any elected government at all and not even bother to have the pretense that we are being represented. But really, what's the difference? We're practically there now.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)The game is rigged.
(Pay no attention to the surveillance state supporter behind the curtain; Grover Norquist isn't involved. )
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)hoo boy.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)THAT is the "NSA" objective: make MONEY. A gigantic parasitic industry. And nobody can go against it w/o being soft on terrorism etc. Classic military industrial complex 101 - but even BETTER cause it's secret, and they use their own information gathering machine to crush anyone who gets in the way.
Meanwhile, everyone is debating what they are/are not collecting and who they're watching and not asking WTF are we spending all this money on creating a police state while our country rots from the inside? Hell, they don't even have to do a good job: if there's still terrorism, then it's OBVIOUSLY because we are not spending enough money on security. Makes me want to vomit.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Yes, the Bushler administration greatly expanded the intel apparatus and flagrantly violated whatever statutory safeguards and limitations they liked, whenever they wanted. They didn't get much pushback and probably never will. Neither will Blair. That's life. It sucks. We shouldn't have let them take office. We're lucky they're out of power. But:
No, the NSA isn't useless, because we do have formidable cbyer enemies, or rivals if you prefer, namely China and Russia, and let's not forget the UK and ME. As far as I've been able to determine from the shamelessly politicized and sensational reporting on the Utah center, that's what it was built for, and that's what it's mainly engaged in.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet or hear from a certain Republican senator from your home state of Kentucky.
Titonwan
(785 posts)Always a pleasure to read you. K&R
debunkthis
(99 posts)this transcends party lines as there are many Democrats in government that support the NSA's spying as well as Republicans. Don't be fooled by the false left/right paradigm we are being constantly fed by the MSM.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)emsimon33
(3,128 posts)Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)and the USA actually has enemies that have attacked us and our allies multiple times.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that a total authoritarian state is necessary to protect us from enemies. If you want that, move to Russia.
We have a Constitution that apparently people like you are willing to see violated for the promise, the mere promise (from a Republican run intelligence agency no less) of protection from enemies. Why would you trust Republicans?
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)person could think that I insinuated anything about a total authoritarian state.
You realize that the Republican works for a Democrat and that he is an American, too.He's an employee. He would get to vote and everything. There are even some Republicans that hold elected offices.
librechik
(30,674 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 18, 2014, 05:05 PM - Edit history (1)
Al Qaeda has executed an average of two terrorist attacks globally each year for the last 20 years and they are far from the only player on the international terror scene.
As has come out over the last seven months, several European countries (that we know of so far) send data to the NSA to analyze so they can get help from us in trying to ferret out terrorist cells.
This is not an American issue and it is not a false premise.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)You have created two.
Perhaps we could agree that it is a humanitarian problem, not just an American problem?
Nobody is saying there should be no intelligence. The question is: How much?
Anyone that is not skeptical of the dangers inherent in the powers of government is a dangerous person, in my opinion.
Nobody is saying there should be no intelligence? Then what the hell are they saying?
Abolish the NSA blahblah
Which intelligence is the ok intelligence just out of curiosity.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)or ...if we build it they will come? Oh come on now ...I'm sure that out of 330 million US citizens there has to be few worth searching up at least 300 million buttocks to find.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)enemy, the People of the US, rather than what her job description is, 'oversee the NSA', we are 'in more danger than ever so we have to let the NSA do whatever it wants, to protect us of course which they haven't apparently since they've found a terrorist we are told and we are in more danger than ever.
When she said that on National TV along with her Republican cohort, I wondered if in her desperation to defend them she understood the sheer stupidity of that remark. She was very 'serious' when she said it.
kentuck
(111,080 posts)and the Courts need to oversee the NSA...
And the people need to oversee the Congress.
Especially with folks like Diane Feinstein guarding our Constitution and our Rights.
Rex
(65,616 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Invade the Middle East; rob THOSE sovereign nations (oil; antiquities; other mineral wealth); and get the opium/heroin trade moving again (the poppy fields).
Nobody was blaming Bush and Cheney for anything, other than a few unheeded Democrats. Everyone was on the "Let's go get'em!" bandwagon.