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kentuck

(111,080 posts)
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 09:45 PM Jan 2014

This entire NSA debate is based on a false premise.

We have been programmed by the Republican Party, with the help of the national media, to think it is all about protecting our country from terrorists. That is the false premise.

In September of 2001, the NSA had all the information they needed to prevent a terrorist attack. They had received several memos and warnings about possible attacks. But the Republican leadership ignored them.

So, rather than accept responsibility for the worst terrorist attack in our country's history, they had to create a false narrative to fight their "war on terror". They needed more tools to fight this war on Al Qaeda and the Taliban, they said. They needed to disregard the Geneva Convention in order to torture prisoners for information.

There was no need for the American people to give up their 4th Amendment rights. There was no need for the government to accumulate vast amounts of personal information on every American. There was no need to build a huge information center in Utah to process all this information.

But it was all part of the effort to shield Bush and Cheney and the Republican Party from the blame of the terrorist attack of 9/11. With the help of the corporate media, they were successful in diverting attention or blame from themselves.

Now, more than a dozen years later, the "war on terror" has become a part of our culture. Even Democratic Presidents come forth to declare the necessity of spying on Americans. Although there is not one incident that they can find to show they have stopped even one terrorist act, they continue to build upon this Republican lie.

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This entire NSA debate is based on a false premise. (Original Post) kentuck Jan 2014 OP
A-mother-f'n-men@ mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #1
Exactly! ybbor Jan 2014 #93
It has ALL been false premise PowerToThePeople Jan 2014 #2
Uhm... (pssst!) Titonwan Jan 2014 #53
Ya, but no airplane hit that one PowerToThePeople Jan 2014 #65
Pretty spot on, imo 1000words Jan 2014 #3
I believe in the need for counter-terrorism and also civil liberties. JaneyVee Jan 2014 #4
+10 (nt) reACTIONary Jan 2014 #84
Maybe YOU have been programmed. randome Jan 2014 #5
I like your sigline: kentuck Jan 2014 #6
Thanks! randome Jan 2014 #10
Hey, you get off of my cloud Fumesucker Jan 2014 #32
Damn, that's beautiful. randome Jan 2014 #75
But "Terrorism" is certainly the justification cited for the surveillance program, Maedhros Jan 2014 #63
Sure it is. It's THEIR lazy response to why they exist. randome Jan 2014 #76
Great OP pscot Jan 2014 #7
"Bin Laden Determined to Strike In The US" Gman Jan 2014 #8
So now metadata is "vast amounts of personal information on every American" FSogol Jan 2014 #9
Why do you think they call it dope, kid? kentuck Jan 2014 #11
Actually, it says much more about you than you might think. Check out these links. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #12
That hypothetical is terrible Egnever Jan 2014 #14
You're contradicting what you yourself wrote in post #19, downthread Electric Monk Jan 2014 #25
How so? Egnever Jan 2014 #27
re: "It assumes one would know that the number for the gynecologist was a gynecologist." Your words. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #30
Is that supposed to make sense? Egnever Jan 2014 #31
One was what you wrote. The other was what you quoted from a CNN piece. They contradict each other. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #33
How do they contradict each other? Egnever Jan 2014 #37
I can't blame him for giving up on you. Titonwan Jan 2014 #57
Actually, no quakerboy Jan 2014 #89
Yes. That is precisely what it is. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #26
+2 treestar Jan 2014 #36
Agreed Egnever Jan 2014 #42
Good God, are you really proud to be the very last person to not understand this? Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #59
Feel free to educate yourself... L0oniX Jan 2014 #79
What metadata quakerboy Jan 2014 #83
What an absurd question. That's called JAQing. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #86
Sorry but no Egnever Jan 2014 #13
Technology evolves... kentuck Jan 2014 #16
You miss this part? Egnever Jan 2014 #17
Apples and oranges... kentuck Jan 2014 #18
The NSA isnt using YOUR information Egnever Jan 2014 #20
You have contacts in the NSA? Fumesucker Jan 2014 #50
And the discussion devolves to name calling Egnever Jan 2014 #51
Name calling? Fumesucker Jan 2014 #54
If I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #60
There have been reports out recently mindwalker_i Jan 2014 #69
LOL, let me guess, you believed the terror alerts? nt Logical Jan 2014 #61
That the best you've got? Egnever Jan 2014 #68
I also suspect 2naSalit Jan 2014 #15
Wee! Egnever Jan 2014 #19
And calls to the "friends" of the caller and the recipient. kentuck Jan 2014 #21
Yup from three hops to two Egnever Jan 2014 #23
and I think that 2naSalit Jan 2014 #24
The good comes Egnever Jan 2014 #28
Identify the bad guy and THEN get a warrant to get the data from the companies. neverforget Jan 2014 #38
Because if it is in house Egnever Jan 2014 #40
It makes a difference when my records are being held by the government. neverforget Jan 2014 #44
Well I like to kid myself that we have laws Egnever Jan 2014 #46
In case you ever step out of line, like attend a protest or speak out against the wars, it will be El_Johns Jan 2014 #71
My understanding is that they collect all the information including the content, but they claim JDPriestly Jan 2014 #29
Well that is an interesting take Egnever Jan 2014 #34
The Constitution is pretty clear. No surveillance of the private papers of citizens without JDPriestly Jan 2014 #39
Yea Egnever Jan 2014 #41
This opens us up to a lot of abuse. They have the data. They aren't supposed to tie it to us JDPriestly Jan 2014 #43
it is already open to abuse. Egnever Jan 2014 #45
But the Google employee is not so doing. So failed argument. WinkyDink Jan 2014 #96
Somehow I can't see how the 2naSalit Jan 2014 #66
Well said. kentuck Jan 2014 #80
Yup, and it's not just you. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #85
HUMONGOUS K & R !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #22
If we collect everything ctsnowman Jan 2014 #35
Altough I agree with your initial statement jazzimov Jan 2014 #47
Nobody, except corporations and the NSA. Maedhros Jan 2014 #64
It is the holy grail of corporate scams BlueStreak Jan 2014 #48
"The only way it gets better is to not have any elected government at all..." OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #56
Grover Norquist is DU's new hero? ucrdem Jan 2014 #58
ding ding ding!!! Locrian Jan 2014 #91
Yes and no. There's more going on than counter-terrorism. ucrdem Jan 2014 #49
Very astute observation, kentuck. Titonwan Jan 2014 #52
Actually debunkthis Jan 2014 #55
knr Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #62
So why then, IYHO, does a Democratic President let it go on? R. Daneel Olivaw Jan 2014 #67
Great point! emsimon33 Jan 2014 #70
Newsflash, even government is not omniscient Progressive dog Jan 2014 #72
Looks like you want us to guess your point. You are insinuating rhett o rick Jan 2014 #88
I said what I meant to say, and no rational Progressive dog Jan 2014 #94
exactly n/t librechik Jan 2014 #73
No, it's not, and it's not an American issue. You failed as soon as you tried to couch it as such. stevenleser Jan 2014 #74
And for every terrorist you have killed.... kentuck Jan 2014 #81
WTF? Egnever Jan 2014 #90
NSA Surveillance doesnt kill terrorists. Come on, that wasnt even a good try. nt stevenleser Jan 2014 #92
Trickle down terrorism in reverce? L0oniX Jan 2014 #77
According to Feinstein, whose job appears to be to protect the NSA from the real sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #78
The Congress needs to oversee the Courts... kentuck Jan 2014 #82
K&R for pissing off all the RIGHT people! Rex Jan 2014 #87
Disagree with your "all part of" part. IMO, Bushco M/LIHOP to rob the Treasury & introduce Fascism. WinkyDink Jan 2014 #95

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
1. A-mother-f'n-men@
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 09:52 PM
Jan 2014

All the arguments about how collecting massive data is to keep us safe are all BS. The same thing with the TSA. Reports on both say that neither has stopped any terrorist attack, so why do people continue to support them, especially here? More importantly than why some people are disingenuous at best, is what's the real reason these programs exist? I believe a lot of it is because they're a way to get taxpayer money to friends of politicians but there are other reasons.

ybbor

(1,554 posts)
93. Exactly!
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:46 PM
Jan 2014

Use a boogie man tactic to funnel fed monies into their and their buddies wallets. They are against federal government spending unless they are getting a cut. The apathy and passivity of the population at large is so disheartening. What was at one time a country with great promise has turned into a new gilded age with a public too enamored by the shiny objects (reality shows about nothing, et al) to even know how bad they are being played. The younger generation needs to wake up and start paying attention to what really is important to get our nation back on that promising path we were on again. The argument that you have nothing to worry about if your "clean" is bunk. It's who decides what "clean" means that is scary. Ok I'm done.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
53. Uhm... (pssst!)
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:52 PM
Jan 2014

There were three towers. That one way outta of the way of the crash site needs some splainin' Lucy. One day people are gonna wake up. About the time their ten o'clock prune juice is served, probably.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
65. Ya, but no airplane hit that one
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:31 AM
Jan 2014

Demolition squad took it down. How can you keep up appearances if you keep bringing number 7 up?

 

1000words

(7,051 posts)
3. Pretty spot on, imo
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jan 2014

I think you underestimate the willful complicity of the Democratic Party (see Good cop/Bad cop) but you are no fool, for sure.

Rec'd

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
5. Maybe YOU have been programmed.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:00 PM
Jan 2014

You think that's all the NSA does? What about human trafficking? International money laundering? Organ trafficking? Pedophile rings? What about India expressing gratitude recently for the NSA giving them information about a terrorist attack in their country?

Please. It was never solely about terrorism threats against the U.S. That was just the lazy answer to why the NSA exists.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font][hr]

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
6. I like your sigline:
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:04 PM
Jan 2014

"I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong."

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
10. Thanks!
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:22 PM
Jan 2014

I have a bunch of 'em!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"
[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
75. Damn, that's beautiful.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:46 PM
Jan 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
63. But "Terrorism" is certainly the justification cited for the surveillance program,
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:25 AM
Jan 2014

the FISA courts and Total Information Awareness.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
76. Sure it is. It's THEIR lazy response to why they exist.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:48 PM
Jan 2014

They don't even stop to think about what else they monitor because they think terrorism will instantly resolve all disputes. They do a piss-poor job of explaining their jobs.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
11. Why do you think they call it dope, kid?
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:25 PM
Jan 2014

Why do you think they call it "meta-data"?

Do you disagree with the entire post?

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
12. Actually, it says much more about you than you might think. Check out these links.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:29 PM
Jan 2014
https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/why-government-access-metadata-more-modest
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/in-aclu-lawsuit-scientist-demolishes-nsa-its-just-metadata-excuse/

Consider the following hypothetical example: A young woman calls her gynecologist; then immediately calls her mother; then a man who, during the past few months, she had repeatedly spoken to on the telephone after 11pm; followed by a call to a family planning center that also offers abortions. A likely storyline emerges that would not be as evident by examining the record of a single telephone call.

just one example
 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
14. That hypothetical is terrible
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:42 PM
Jan 2014

it assumes more information is known than would be available from phone call records alone.

It assumes one would know that the number for the gynecologist was a gynecologist. something that can be traced back to be sure but not something readily apparent from the meta data. It assumes one knows that the caller was female,also not readily aparent from meta data.It assumes one would know that the man was a male also not readily apparent, and it also assumes one would know that the number was for a family planning center.

Obviously all of this can be gleaned from going back and putting info to numbers but the meta data by itself does not provide any of that.

The value of the meta data to the NSA is once they find a bad guy they can go back and put faces to all the meta data he is connected to. One could certainly argue they could do it to everyone but of course that would be so time consuming as to be logistically impossible at this point. Forget about a human actually reviewing it. It would also be illegal even under current NSA provisiions.



 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
30. re: "It assumes one would know that the number for the gynecologist was a gynecologist." Your words.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:14 PM
Jan 2014

They would know, re: "to whom".

If you're determined not to "get it" then you're not worth my time.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
33. One was what you wrote. The other was what you quoted from a CNN piece. They contradict each other.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:16 PM
Jan 2014

This is probably the last reply I'll bother giving you tonight. I've got better things to do.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
37. How do they contradict each other?
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:22 PM
Jan 2014

You seem very confused maybe you need a nap?

Both are saying the meta data does not contain identifying information. Your paranoid hypothetical assumes much more knowledge than the meta data by itself provides.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
57. I can't blame him for giving up on you.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:00 AM
Jan 2014

You have no idea how insidious 'metadata' analysis is. The absolute WORST part is they're storing this to use later, if you happen to piss someone off with a top secret clearance. They can ruin you and no one would be the wiser. People such as yourself makes this situation truly frightening. Blindly defending the indefensible.
As you can see from my posting numbers, I ain't about to address a fool much. Bye!

quakerboy

(13,920 posts)
89. Actually, no
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 06:25 PM
Jan 2014

1) All the information you talk about "tracing back" is a part of the public record. As a private citizen with internet access and a credit card, you can give me a phone number, and I can tell you who owns it in 2 minutes, and a whole lot about them in 2 more minutes. If you have any questions about how effective these things are, just visit Spokeo. Take that public record data, add in the meta data, throw in a ton of money to hire database experts to automatically match up the information from various sources, and putting together that picture in regards to any individual you have a name, address, or phone number for becomes child's play.

2) Added to that, the meta data includes where calls were made from, I believe. A whole added layer of available information to build that picture on.

3) The issue isnt that they will add up all of these items and use them against every single citizen simultaneously. Given a good database and full access to metadata, it wouldn't take very long at all to put it together on any given citizen that they care to cause trouble for. And that's the issue. Say I protest the NSA effectively enough to be on their metaphorical radar. How hard would it be for them to use metadata to put together a record of my dating history. Or my fathers hoarding habits. Or whatever else they think might be embarrassing enough to have an effect on my behavior or reputation. Then it becomes a simple matter to put out stories about boxes in my garage, or what have you. Or, if I am an A-type congressman with a gambling habit, looking at reelection, even easier to blackmail me.

4) all of this is predicated on the idea that the NSA only collects "metadata". Which is a fairly laughable assumption to make at this point.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
26. Yes. That is precisely what it is.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:05 PM
Jan 2014

If the NSA collects my Google searches, they know exactly what my personal concerns are -- health, religious, political, knitting, gardening, you name it, they can see precisely what I am interested in.

And they are collecting our Google searches and other internet searches and data. It is a terrible intrusion on our privacy just to be collecting and holding that data.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
42. Agreed
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:32 PM
Jan 2014

Still I am happy that this debate is being had it needs to be had. There is nothing wrong with trying to ensure this data is used correctly and not abused.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
59. Good God, are you really proud to be the very last person to not understand this?
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:05 AM
Jan 2014

I remember when ignorance was something to be cured, to clung to and proudly shouted for all to hear.

quakerboy

(13,920 posts)
83. What metadata
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 06:02 PM
Jan 2014

were they collecting when they had people in World of Warcraft?

I believe its been fairly well established that they are collecting far more than metadata. They just play word games. They may record every call you make, but as long as they dont listen to them, they dont count it as having been "collected".

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
13. Sorry but no
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jan 2014

Technology evolves.

In 2001 the internet was still in its infancy. Major businesses still had no web presence. At the beginning of 2001 according to This site there were roughly 350 million users as of 20012 there were 7 billion.

That is a sea change in the way the world communicates. The idea that what worked in 2001 will still work in 2013 just because it is only a little more than ten years later ignores this reality.

I am not going to argue that the patriot act was warranted I was completely against it when it happened. But that does not negate the fact that as communications evolve new ways of tracking criminals need to evolve as well.

Texting only started to to become available in 1998 in the US according to wikipedia that is only 3 years prior to 9-11 that in itself is a change that was in no way covered under the law in 2001.

The internet is changing how the world communicates and law enforcement needs to be able to keep up with those changes.

I am all for going over the patriot act with a fine tooth comb and looking for avenues of abuse and blocking them but the idea that we should base our security on the technology of 2001 is pure idiocy.

Also of course no one points to the successes as that tips the hand to others using the same means to plot.

It is not an easy balance to strike and pretending it is is ridiculous.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
16. Technology evolves...
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:44 PM
Jan 2014

...and they should have no reason to have your name on any list of any kind. You are still deserving of privacy. With technology, they should be able to be much more exclusive, rather than inclusive. But, the problem is that nobody knows what they have, not even the Congress of the United States. They lie.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
17. You miss this part?
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:49 PM
Jan 2014
I am all for going over the patriot act with a fine tooth comb and looking for avenues of abuse and blocking them


The idea they shouldn't have your name on a list of any kind is more simplistic thinking. The IRS knows damn near everything about you and has for nearly your entire life. Good luck getting your name off that list.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
18. Apples and oranges...
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:53 PM
Jan 2014

The IRS is not using your information as a possible terrorist suspect.

As for the Patriot Act, they haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb. That is the problem and the origin of the disinformation and lies.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
20. The NSA isnt using YOUR information
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:56 PM
Jan 2014

for that either.

Unless of course you are a Terrorist or tied to other criminal activity.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
60. If I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:18 AM
Jan 2014

That's good to know, thanks.

I'm curious, the Founders who did that Fourth Amendment thing - what was up with that? I'm guessing they had something to hide themselves - what's your take?

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
69. There have been reports out recently
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 01:03 AM
Jan 2014

that this didn't help foil any terrorist plot. As for criminal activity, we have laws (and a constitution) to make it not easy to gather "evidence" and arrest people, and there are really good reasons for that. Now, this data has been given to the DEA, then they create "parallel" evidence and arrest people. Those people can't defend themselves at all, because they have no access to the evidence.

The basic problem is this: when someone has too much power, it get abused. That's why we moved away from kings and emperors. Hell, we see it now that police have riot gear, tasers, and other weapons that that power gets abused. Giving the government access to huge amounts of metadata is an is arguably a much bigger threat in that is gives them, potentially, a whole lot of power that can be abused.

2naSalit

(86,570 posts)
15. I also suspect
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:43 PM
Jan 2014

that not very many people really KNOW what metadata be.

A good example would be to go to some electronic map (I learned what it was when I was learning about electronic cartography via ESRI products) and click around the tabs. There should be one somewhere that says meta or metadata, you will see that it is usually up to a full page of info that describes in text everything that is on the image, it's just the text version.

So that would mean, basically (elementarily, really) everything that is found in the "other file" whether it's sound or image only without the visual or sound included. There is nothing innocuous about it since it will identify the source location (coordinates and coordinate type) of all features of the file, and the phone numbers what was said by whom or at least a summary of the conversation along with all the other finer particulars of the "event".

The only reason to have the actual sound file of a phone conversation is for the voice ID. There's a sh*tload of there there. If somebody wanted to hit you with a drone, say, all they have to do is enter in the live metadata and you're toast... or ashes.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
19. Wee!
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:54 PM
Jan 2014

it could be anything you want it to be but it isnt.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/17/technology/security/obama-metadata-nsa/

OK. But what's the metadata he's talking about?

It's information wireless carriers collect about where, when and to whom customers make phone calls. It doesn't include any recordings of the actual phone call itself.

The metadata can contain phone numbers, the time and duration of calls and the location of the caller and the recipient.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
21. And calls to the "friends" of the caller and the recipient.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:56 PM
Jan 2014

Obama suggested today that they should do away with "friends" of "friends" of the callers and the recipients and only take it to two levels.

2naSalit

(86,570 posts)
24. and I think that
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:59 PM
Jan 2014

there's a considerable amount of omission in that statement. What good is all the other stuff without content? I don't buy the seeming innocence it implies. But that's just me, I'm not as conditioned as I should be I guess.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
28. The good comes
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:07 PM
Jan 2014

When you identify a bad guy and go back and connect that meta data to actual people. I dont understand why that is hard to comprehend.

neverforget

(9,436 posts)
38. Identify the bad guy and THEN get a warrant to get the data from the companies.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:23 PM
Jan 2014

Why collect intelligence on everybody when 99.99% of it is useless to any investigation?

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
40. Because if it is in house
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:25 PM
Jan 2014

The reaction can much much swifter than waiting for the companies to comply or not comply. Would be my first guess.

A warrant is already required what difference does it make who is holding the records?

neverforget

(9,436 posts)
44. It makes a difference when my records are being held by the government.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:36 PM
Jan 2014

It's none of their business what I am doing. Besides, having too much data is just as bad, if not worse, than having too little. Companies have to supply all the requested data by a warrant. I don't see why the government would want it all. One thing is for sure, this can be abused very easily. Imagine if we get a President Christie who likes to punish opponents? Are you comfortable with a Republican having all this data? I'm not now and I certainly has hell wouldn't be with a Republican President.

And that warrant about getting metadata? The ruling used to justify sweeping up all the metadata of Americans is Smith v Maryland. However, that case was about an individual (a robber) and not a government surveillance program. That's a gigantic difference in scale as in an individual vs ALL Americans.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
46. Well I like to kid myself that we have laws
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:39 PM
Jan 2014

and that most people try to follow them.

No system will be perfect. I am all for looking at this as critically as possible and making laws to protect law abiding citizens from intrusion.

I dont agree that meta data collection is a personal intrusion.

 

El_Johns

(1,805 posts)
71. In case you ever step out of line, like attend a protest or speak out against the wars, it will be
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 05:17 AM
Jan 2014

easier to spy on you, smear you, etc.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
29. My understanding is that they collect all the information including the content, but they claim
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:12 PM
Jan 2014

that they only access the content is they have some sort of warrant or other specific permission to do so. But just knowing the timing, parties and locations of the parties to the call is too much information for the government to have.

It was interesting to me that Obama gave as an example of a pioneer in American intelligence, Paul Revere.

If the British had been collecting the metadata on Paul Revere's rides and activities, we would not be a nation today. I'm not suggesting that we need a revolution. But I am suggesting that our Constitution was written by men who remembered the American revolution and wanted to protect themselves against precisely the sort of heavy-handed surveillance that the NSA is practicing today.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
34. Well that is an interesting take
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:20 PM
Jan 2014
If the British had been collecting the metadata on Paul Revere's rides and activities, we would not be a nation today. I'm not suggesting that we need a revolution. But I am suggesting that our Constitution was written by men who remembered the American revolution and wanted to protect themselves against precisely the sort of heavy-handed surveillance that the NSA is practicing today.


I guess it depends on if you were british or a colonist at the time when it comes to your perspective on how that would have worked out.

Lets change it to Texas and them wanting to secede from the union. Would should they be allowed to do that and would stopping them from doing so if one thinks it would be a good idea to do so be a god thing? Would tracking people attempting to make something like that come about be a good or bad thing?

I am not sure of the answer my self.

This is not a black and white subject in my opinion.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
39. The Constitution is pretty clear. No surveillance of the private papers of citizens without
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:24 PM
Jan 2014

probable cause and a warrant.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

We are to be secure in our persons, houses, papers and effects . . . .

I use the internet in my house. If I want to use it to communicate with the government, I will address my communication directly to the government.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
41. Yea
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:28 PM
Jan 2014

The difference here as far as the government is concerned and the difference I see is. The data is not tied to you until they tie it to you. If that makes any sense.

It is not personal until they get the warrant to make it so. That is the difference as I see it.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
43. This opens us up to a lot of abuse. They have the data. They aren't supposed to tie it to us
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:34 PM
Jan 2014

as individuals until they have a warrant. But the opportunities for abuse are too tempting for me.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
45. it is already open to abuse.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:36 PM
Jan 2014

I am with you if you want to limit the abuse. I agree the discussions being had on this are healthy and needed. This is dangerous territory and safeguards need to be as strong as we can make them to ensure the data is not abused.

But that data is out there regardless. A google employee could read your emails as easy or easier than the NSA.

2naSalit

(86,570 posts)
66. Somehow I can't see how the
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:32 AM
Jan 2014

metadata isn't personal since it would very likely include the individual's name to the phone acct or addresses where it is located via the GPS unit in it. There is a GPS unit in every cell phone, it's used quite often even by ski patrol folks to locate lost skiers, like very often. the sane with lost folks in most any place... even if you have a cheap prepay phone with no name on the acct. the location of its regular placement, like your home, is in the meta and probably includes who lives where. And with content... well.

And I watched that press conf with the "other" whistle-blowers today, the take home message there was that YOU DO NOT GET TO KNOW OR DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG in this, it is arbitrary at best and depends on who is interested in what/where.whom you have contact with, period. And they have access to that regardless. And I don't trust the president getting up and saying he's on it and then nothing changes because that's what's gonna be what happens... lip service

Try googling yourself sometime and see how much google knows about you just from your web surfing or whenever something you wrote online has your name attached. You can be tracked down by anyone online.

It's getting pretty creepy.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
80. Well said.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 04:59 PM
Jan 2014


We cannot permit these secret courts to be the only oversight on this dangerous policy. The Congress needs much more oversight over the secret courts, in my opinion. Anyway, I think the Constitution probably gives the Congress the right to declare war, even wars on terrorism. That power should not be in the hands of secret courts, in the first place. We should rid ourselves of these "star chambers".

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
85. Yup, and it's not just you.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 06:12 PM
Jan 2014

Anyone that thinks they only collect innocent meta data should ask themselves some questions. Why just meta data? what good does only meta data do? It's only good to keep tabs on known suspects, not to find new ones. You don't need a FISA court to issue search warrants for known suspects and you need more than meta data to find unknown terrorists.

Anyone that thinks they aren't at the very least listening for key words is only fooling themselves and needs to educate themselves. Check on the DEA connection for a start, the evidence is out there, then get back to us.

jazzimov

(1,456 posts)
47. Altough I agree with your initial statement
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:41 PM
Jan 2014

that "This entire NSA debate is based on a false premise", I have to disagree with your analysis.

Although I agree that we had most of the data that we needed to avoid the tragedy of 9/11 and that our administration ignored the evidence until it was too late.

But don't forget the old adage "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone ISN'T out to get you..."

First of all, nobody is spying on Americans except for the corporations that ask you to "click here if you agree". Does anyone actually read any of this before clicking on "I agree"? Basically, they can sell your info to anyone they want - including the Federal Government. It's just that the Fed's tend not to pay. If they did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
64. Nobody, except corporations and the NSA.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:30 AM
Jan 2014

The released NSA documents show that unequivocally. You're just arguing over what the meaning of "is" is.

"They're not spying on Americans, they're just accumulating huge files of behavioral data on them. It's totally different!!"

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
48. It is the holy grail of corporate scams
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:43 PM
Jan 2014

There is only one thing better than huge government contracts where the government takes money from every citizen and hands it directly over to mega-corporations, thereby eliminating all that fuss with marketing, accounts receivable, and such.

The only thing better is when government can take an unlimited amount of money, funnel it through secret budgets that no elected official really ever sees, and give it to corporations without the slightest bit of oversight or accountability. That is as good as it gets, folks.

The only way it gets better is to not have any elected government at all and not even bother to have the pretense that we are being represented. But really, what's the difference? We're practically there now.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
56. "The only way it gets better is to not have any elected government at all..."
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:59 PM
Jan 2014

The game is rigged.

(Pay no attention to the surveillance state supporter behind the curtain; Grover Norquist isn't involved. )

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
91. ding ding ding!!!
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:11 PM
Jan 2014

THAT is the "NSA" objective: make MONEY. A gigantic parasitic industry. And nobody can go against it w/o being soft on terrorism etc. Classic military industrial complex 101 - but even BETTER cause it's secret, and they use their own information gathering machine to crush anyone who gets in the way.

Meanwhile, everyone is debating what they are/are not collecting and who they're watching and not asking WTF are we spending all this money on creating a police state while our country rots from the inside? Hell, they don't even have to do a good job: if there's still terrorism, then it's OBVIOUSLY because we are not spending enough money on security. Makes me want to vomit.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
49. Yes and no. There's more going on than counter-terrorism.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:45 PM
Jan 2014

Yes, the Bushler administration greatly expanded the intel apparatus and flagrantly violated whatever statutory safeguards and limitations they liked, whenever they wanted. They didn't get much pushback and probably never will. Neither will Blair. That's life. It sucks. We shouldn't have let them take office. We're lucky they're out of power. But:

No, the NSA isn't useless, because we do have formidable cbyer enemies, or rivals if you prefer, namely China and Russia, and let's not forget the UK and ME. As far as I've been able to determine from the shamelessly politicized and sensational reporting on the Utah center, that's what it was built for, and that's what it's mainly engaged in.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet or hear from a certain Republican senator from your home state of Kentucky.

 

debunkthis

(99 posts)
55. Actually
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:56 PM
Jan 2014

this transcends party lines as there are many Democrats in government that support the NSA's spying as well as Republicans. Don't be fooled by the false left/right paradigm we are being constantly fed by the MSM.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
72. Newsflash, even government is not omniscient
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:18 PM
Jan 2014

and the USA actually has enemies that have attacked us and our allies multiple times.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
88. Looks like you want us to guess your point. You are insinuating
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 06:20 PM
Jan 2014

that a total authoritarian state is necessary to protect us from enemies. If you want that, move to Russia.

We have a Constitution that apparently people like you are willing to see violated for the promise, the mere promise (from a Republican run intelligence agency no less) of protection from enemies. Why would you trust Republicans?

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
94. I said what I meant to say, and no rational
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jan 2014

person could think that I insinuated anything about a total authoritarian state.
You realize that the Republican works for a Democrat and that he is an American, too.He's an employee. He would get to vote and everything. There are even some Republicans that hold elected offices.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
74. No, it's not, and it's not an American issue. You failed as soon as you tried to couch it as such.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:26 PM
Jan 2014

Last edited Sat Jan 18, 2014, 05:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Al Qaeda has executed an average of two terrorist attacks globally each year for the last 20 years and they are far from the only player on the international terror scene.

As has come out over the last seven months, several European countries (that we know of so far) send data to the NSA to analyze so they can get help from us in trying to ferret out terrorist cells.

This is not an American issue and it is not a false premise.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
81. And for every terrorist you have killed....
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 05:19 PM
Jan 2014

You have created two.

Perhaps we could agree that it is a humanitarian problem, not just an American problem?

Nobody is saying there should be no intelligence. The question is: How much?

Anyone that is not skeptical of the dangers inherent in the powers of government is a dangerous person, in my opinion.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
90. WTF?
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 06:32 PM
Jan 2014

Nobody is saying there should be no intelligence? Then what the hell are they saying?

Abolish the NSA blahblah

Which intelligence is the ok intelligence just out of curiosity.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
77. Trickle down terrorism in reverce?
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:56 PM
Jan 2014

or ...if we build it they will come? Oh come on now ...I'm sure that out of 330 million US citizens there has to be few worth searching up at least 300 million buttocks to find.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
78. According to Feinstein, whose job appears to be to protect the NSA from the real
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:57 PM
Jan 2014

enemy, the People of the US, rather than what her job description is, 'oversee the NSA', we are 'in more danger than ever so we have to let the NSA do whatever it wants, to protect us of course which they haven't apparently since they've found a terrorist we are told and we are in more danger than ever.

When she said that on National TV along with her Republican cohort, I wondered if in her desperation to defend them she understood the sheer stupidity of that remark. She was very 'serious' when she said it.

kentuck

(111,080 posts)
82. The Congress needs to oversee the Courts...
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 05:22 PM
Jan 2014

and the Courts need to oversee the NSA...

And the people need to oversee the Congress.

Especially with folks like Diane Feinstein guarding our Constitution and our Rights.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
95. Disagree with your "all part of" part. IMO, Bushco M/LIHOP to rob the Treasury & introduce Fascism.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 08:05 PM
Jan 2014

Invade the Middle East; rob THOSE sovereign nations (oil; antiquities; other mineral wealth); and get the opium/heroin trade moving again (the poppy fields).

Nobody was blaming Bush and Cheney for anything, other than a few unheeded Democrats. Everyone was on the "Let's go get'em!" bandwagon.

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