The Stars and Bars is the flag of Treason and Sedition, NOT Patriotism.

[riqster]

Last edited Sat Jan 18, 2014, 03:03 PM - Edit history (2)

http://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/the-stars-and-bars-is-the-flag-of-treason-and-sedition-not-patriotism/

"Enough, already. You can argue all you want about whether the Civil War was about slavery, Northern aggression, cultural differences, economic imperialism, blahblahblahbittyBLAHblah; but the war itself was the act of traitors to the United States of America. Period. Read the Constitution if you don’t believe it.

And the stars and bars are the flag of the army that fought in favor of treason, sedition, and other crimes against the Constitution. Regardless of your political feelings, that is what the flag stood for. It was not a flag that extolled the virtues of biscuits and gravy, gumbo or other truly excellent bits of Southern culture: it was the flag carried by those who wanted to burn, murder and rape in the service of their mission to overthrow a legitimately elected government.

So, if you consider yourself an “American Patriot”, just WTF are you doing, displaying the Stars and Bars?"

[PowerToThePeople]

1. Huh? n/t

[riqster]

2. Look at the Teabaggers and other so-called patriots

And notice how often you see them flying the Confederate battle flag.

[PowerToThePeople]

4. Ok, I misunderstood "stars and bars" n/t

[JoePhilly]

3. Answer: "Self-Identifying as a RW nut job".

Personally, I appreciate it when a RW nut job provides a clear indication of that fact before I ever have to actually interact with them.

[Bandit]

5. While I agree with you, you must remember so is the USA flag.

Our forfathers were seditionist and traitors against Brittain. The difference is we won our cause, The South did not and therefor gets judged for their treason..

[DonCoquixote]

53. however

we did not try to keep slavery. You can mix all the other causes, you can even say that Britain was just as evil with their rape of Africa, and even that the Canadians are guilty by virtue of being loyal to England during all that Rudyard Kipling nonsense, but nothing can hide the fact that Dixie wanted SLAVES. Let's be honest, if Dixie won, there would be slave kennels at Wal-Mart!

[oldhippie]

6. Revisionist history, much?

The South was not trying to overthrow a legitimate government. They wanted to leave said government. Different things.

Go ahead and rationalize as you wish.

[riqster]

7. Then why did they attack the territory of that government?

They could have just built fences across "their" borders and fortified them. But that is not what they did, now, was it?

Plus, secession was and is illegal on its face.

[oldhippie]

8. The well known concept of ...

... Preemptive defense.

[riqster]

9. Uh-huh. Bush said the same thing when he invaded Iraq, and it was BS then, too.

[oldhippie]

16. So you believe the South was .....

.... trying to take over the Federal government?

[riqster]

17. Replace it, I'd say.

Only reason to try to take territory is to, well, take territory.

[oldhippie]

18. What is your difference betwen ...

... "take over" and "replace"?

Only reason to try to take territory is to, well, take territory.

And I will posit that you are not well versed in military tactics and doctrine?

[JaneyVee]

21. I forgot the ? mark

[oldhippie]

22. OK ......

But, the Articles of Confederation have what to do with the Confederacy? Or the difference between "take over" and "replace"?

[riqster]

24. To take over could mean to run what is already there.

The South wanted to cripple the North and take its wealth, then impose its own "system". That was the only way, their theorists argued, for the South to be safe from "Northern Aggression".

Anything less and the whole cycle would repeat. Thus went the argument.

So spare me the "poor little Southerners, beaten on by the Nasty Northerners" routine. Neither side was Simon-pure.

And in any case, the point is not history, but the present: we have loads of so-called patriots flying various Confederate Flags. They are not patriots.

[oldhippie]

27. If you say so .....

Have a nice day.

[riqster]

33. And you as well.

[tabasco]

25. LOL.

Hi. Former Army officer and War College grad here. How ya' doin?

Despite your self-proclaimed knowledge of military tactics, the concept of "preemptive defense" was not "well known" in 1860. The tactical operation of a spoiling attack was well known, as a battlefield operation. But "preemptive defense" is really a nuclear age strategic term.

The South began military hostilities with the North. The South did not bombard Fort Sumter in some kind of strategic defense. The South wanted the war, the South started the war, and the South got their asses beat. Yes, an armed insurrection against a constitutional government is an overthrow attempt.

Take your revisionist history somewhere else, like Free Republic, where the dumbasses might be impressed.

[oldhippie]

29. Well, ...

Also a former Army Officer here and C&GS graduate (the War College would have been interesting, but I didn't stick around long enough.)

I fail to see the difference between a spoiling attack and preemptive defense. Does it matter what era it was?

I see this will go nowhere, so have a nice day.

[DonCoquixote]

54. simply thus

If lets say, Mexico attacked a Military base in Texas, then yes, they could be seen as declaring war with the WHOLE NATION. They had better not do that unless they want the resources of that nation upon them. Ask The Japanese how Pearl Harbor worked out.

All the same, your "they just wanted to leave the government" argument falls flat when the South enjoyed the protection of that government for years. Much of the territory that became the CSAwas either purchased (ala Louisiana) annexed (like Texas and Florida) or outright conquered. Those Yankees they hated sure were loved when they fought to keep the British or Mexicans from taking back land that was, after all, not part of the nation. Perhaps we should have sold Louisiana back to France, or given Texas back to Mexico, or even see if we could let England have Alabama and Mississippi back.

and let's not even mention the fact that the First Nations were slaughtered into near oblivion, all so that these new states could be opened up, so that the grandchildren of those white settlers could become a bunch of rebels called Dixie. Maybe they should have let the Indians run wild in Texas, to see how they would do without help from Washington.

No, those landowners did not have to worry, because we proved in 1812 that we would defend our land, despite the fact that the Canadians still snicker about burning down the White House (which they did as BRITISH SUBJECTS, which is a nice way of saying London's pet dogs.) The entire reason the CSA was able to form those Plantations was because they got LOTS OF HELP FROM THAT DAMN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. The cycle is still true, because, as even an admitted bastard like Chris Christie could see, the states of Dixie get more back from that government than they pay in taxes. Liberal states like California and New York pay the taxes that made Dixie interstates.

Now, I am in Dixie, Florida to be precise. I love the cuisine, the laid back attitude, and even the real country music (as opposed to the crap they play on CMT), but Dixie has never been independent of Washington, a city that was even put IN Dixie to please that slave owning state, Virginia. If these Neo Confederates ever get their wish, it will be sad to see how QUICK they get devoured as many places finally get to get their revenge without worrying about Uncle Sam.

[dawg]

34. I have no idea whether or not the leaders of the South wanted all-out war ...

with the North, and if so, for what reason. Since they are all dead, we can't ask them. And I, for one, would not trust any memoirs or writings they may have left us on the matter. After-the-fact accounts tend to be self-serving and not very factual.

If they truly wanted war with an industrial power twice their size, they were fools.

I think it's far more likely that they shelled Ft. Sumter because it was part of South Carolina, on an island sitting in the middle of Charleston harbor, and they wanted to the North to evacuate and respect their territorial borders.

I'll bet they thought the North would back down, evacuate all remaining federal installations on Southern soil, and leave them to their backwards slave-owning ways.

What they got, was a military invasion of Northern Virginia, which was, I think, not what they had been counting on.

But since they are all dead, I can't really say for sure. Perhaps they thought the vampires under Pickett's command would really make them invincible.

[Historic NY]

48. Most people thought the showdown would last a couple weeks or so...

the First Battle of Manassas (Bull Run) changed that idea. The picnic, Sunday go to meeting crowd thought it would be fun to watch Billy Yank whip Johnny Reb. The opening gambit would lead to years of death and suffering & carnage on both sides. Sheridian raid on the bread basket & Shermans March was meant to inflict on and bring to the Confederacy "Total War". some would argue the point but it was the cordinated "maximum effort", of its time to bring the confederate Army and it citizens to their knees.

[tabasco]

23. After agreeing to abide by the Constitution, the southern states

attempted to abrogate the Constitution via use of force.

That's not "overthrow" in your opinion? LOL.

[Humanist_Activist]

28. Technically they were, in the secessionist states, they overthrew the federal government's...

power over those states. They even recognized state governments that weren't legitimate, such as Missouri's, attempting to even overthrow the legitimate state government that voted to NOT secede from the Union.

[geek tragedy]

30. The slavery-loving traitors started shooting when they lost an election.

Their cause, their traditions, their culture, their history--everything about the Confederates can be summed up in three words:

Slavery
Treason
Racism

Sherman was too kind to them.

[DonCoquixote]

52. leave said government

so they could oppress Black people that they wanted to count as 3/5 of a citizen for purposes of power, and not much else.

[aikoaiko]

10. Its the Guerrillero Heroico of the contemporary south and rednecks in all states.

[Shoulders of Giants]

11. Not only that, but its also bad heritage.

In Illinois, we don't celebrate our heritage by honoring Al Capone, George Ryan, and Rod Blagojevich. We honor Abe Lincoln, and maybe Oprah... In Germany, they don't honor the Nazi flag to honor German Heritage. (This is not breaking Godwinn's law. Slavery is one of the few things you can compare to Nazism.)

There are many things from Southern Heritage than can choose to honor. The Cherokee, Jazz, The awesome food... Why do so many choose to honor the flag of an armed rebellion against USA to defend the rights to own slaves, but claim its "heritage, not hate."?

[riqster]

12. The South started writing its own alternate history as soon as they lost.

Happy negroes and vile, oppressive Northerners, oppression against the poor pitiful innocent Southerners who never meant no harm to nobody, and so on.

There's a post to that effect upthread a ways.

Nor is it a minority viewpoint: I saw a curated museum exhibit at a prestigious Georgia university a few years back that "proved" the "truth" of this pile of dung masquerading as history.

[cloudbase]

13. The author has it wrong.

Stars and Bars



Confederate Battle Flag

[riqster]

14. Thanks!

[whatchamacallit]

15. Of course the author has it wrong, that blog is shit. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

26. I one time saw someone with a Stars and Bars bumper stick on one side, and the U.S. flag...

on the other, either he's confused as to his loyalties, or ignorant, I wasn't able to determine this, I just thought it funny.

[indie9197]

51. Maybe a mixed marriage n/t

[geek tragedy]

31. Eh, same shit different pile. Same group of racist traitors flying each flag. nt

[hootinholler]

43. IIRC The second flag is a Naval flag

The battle flag was square.

I could easily have that wrong.

Edit: Almost right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

[riqster]

44. I went and looked it up.

They had a LOT of flags, it turns out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

[hootinholler]

45. LOL so did I

Apparently the rectangular one was both a Naval Ensign and the battle flag of the army of Tennessee.

[brewens]

32. What we usually see is the Confederate Battle flag, not the "Stars and Bars", which is the

Confederate National flag and quite different.

I watched Civil War writer and historian, Shelby Foote on C-Span2 one day promoting his book, Shilo. He had some really interesting comments. One that in letters between Lee and Jefferson Davis, they never called it anything other than the Civil War. So much for revisionists that call it "The War Against Northern Aggression" or whatever.

Foote also said something like, "a bunch of yayhoos that should have never been born to see it fly", referring to bagger types parading the flag around.

The Confederate Army also had an alarmingly high level of desertion. Some of those people need to think a little more about just what they are so proud of.

[Orsino]

35. Most flags are, or are supplanted by those that are. n/t

[Prophet 451]

36. and it WAS about slavery

We know it was about slavery because the seceeding states damn well said so. They even put it in their new Constitution.

[riqster]

39. Granted, but that wasn't my point.

It was about modern-day "patriots" flying the flag.

[Prophet 451]

41. I know, just me being pedantic

Sorry, my bad.

[riqster]

42. No worries.

It is a point that we need to keep front and center, so these yutzes can't pretend otherwise.

[Major Nikon]

50. No serious historian disputes this, just neoconfederate shitbag slavery apologists like Ron Paul

[arely staircase]

37. well yes, with a mild qualifier

The war was about slavery and the flag represents white supremacy. It has no rightful place outside a Klan rally. However, implying every soldier who fought under it wanted to "burn, murder and rape to overthrow a legitimately elected government" is like saying every American that fought in Iraq wanted to make money for Dick Cheney and Halliburton. My great great grandfather suffered terribly at the siege of Vicksburg to naively defend the economic interests of wealthy slave owners. The poor always do the dying for the rich.

[riqster]

38. Fair Point

Which makes it even more ridiculous that present day non-rich Americans fly those flags.

[arely staircase]

40. absolutely

revisionists have often pointed to the fact most confederate soldiers didn't own slaves as evidence that the war wasn't about slavery, when it is evidence of no such thing. it is like saying the Iraq War wasn't about oil because most US soldiers and marines weren't in the oil business. I agree with you 100 percent about that flag and the reason for that war.

[Wolf Frankula]

46. To Quote the Constitution of the United States

Which these secessionists claim to revere

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

If rising in armed rebellion, and making war against the United States is not treason, then the word has no meaning.

As for Robert E. Lee.

"It were pity,
One so Witty,
Malcontent.

Leaving reason,
Should to Treason,
Be so bent.

But his gifts,
Were but shifts,
Void of Grace.

And his bravery,
Was but knavery,
Vile and base.

Robert E. Lee was a traitor,
Head of a traitor gang.
He and his fellows,
Davis and others,
Should have been sentenced to hang."

Wolf

[riqster]

47. Nice work. Yours?

[Wolf Frankula]

49. Most of it is Not

Most of that little rhyme comes from the Constitution of the United States, and an epigram upon Matthew Parrish, a traitor executed in Queen Elizabeth I's time.

Wolf