Florida Man Claims Self-Defense After Hopping A Fence To Shoot, Kill 21-Year-Old In A Hoodie

[MrScorpio]

BY NICOLE FLATOW ON JANUARY 21, 2014 AT 2:57 PM

On Thursday, an Orlando man shot and killed a 21-year-old who was fleeing his yard. He didn’t appear to be stealing anything, according to witness accounts. He didn’t appear to be threatening anybody. But Claudius Smith said he feared he was a burglar, followed him over the fence to a neighboring apartment complex, where he shot him after he said he felt threatened, according to a confession documented in an Orlando Police Department report. Smith even said he feared victim Ricardo Sanes was armed “because his pants were falling down” and his hands were in his hoodie pockets, according to a report obtained by the Orlando Sentinel.

Now, questions are emerging about whether Smith will also invoke the state’s Stand Your Ground law, which gained notoriety over the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, shot in a Florida residential development while wearing a hoodie. Law enforcement officials don’t seem to believe Stand Your Ground applies. Smith has already been charged with second-degree murder. But that doesn’t stop a judge from granting Stand Your Ground immunity later. In one of the most recent Florida court decisions on Stand Your Ground, an appeals court granted Stand Your Ground immunity to a man who went to his car to get a gun before the fatal incident.

According to statements by Smith’s girlfriend, Angela Kemraj, to police, the incident started when she saw a man in the yard on surveillance cameras and reported it to Smith. She said they saw the individual in dark clothes and a hoodie leaving their yard without anything in his hands, and climbing over the fence to a neighboring apartment complex. Smith then left the apartment and climbed over the fence. Two minutes later, Kemraj said she heard gunshots. Soon after, Smith came back to the apartment and said Sanes tried to rob him, without mentioning the shooting. During initial police questioning, Smith later denied knowledge about the shooting, and only later confessed, claiming he shot in self-defense.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/21/3187451/florida-suspect-says-believed-man-killed-armed-pants-falling/

[hack89]

1. Fortunately juries can still say ""you are full of shit - guilty." nt

[Squinch]

4. But it's Florida, so that's not guaranteed. This guy is a stone murderer. He better not get off.

But then I didn't think there was any way Zimmerman would get off.

[FreakinDJ]

11. If it was a Cop - it would be a completely justified shooting

and that is how this guy is going to be Acquitted

Suspicious person reported to him

He followed said person to check it out

He saw his hands in the pockets of his "Hoodie" and figured he was reaching for a gun

"I was in FEAR for my Life" - just like the Cops say it now

Self Defense

This lesson has been taught and reiterated time and time again by the police departments all across America and once Zimmerman tested the "Stand Your Ground Law" in Florida it gave a huge Green Light to every gun toting bigot out there it is open season on people of color

And Furthermore

The Supreme Court said we cannot question the police officer's intent nor question the split second decision

[Logical]

19. Cops get away with abuse all the time. Basically untouchable. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

138. Hard to prove murder in these cases, but I'd try him for manslaughter for sure...

When you have case where someone shoots a trespasser who is fleeing the property, it's difficult if not impossible to prove murder because understandably the person whose property it is has reason to be frightened by the incident and may have acted in the heat of the moment. Still, you don't shoot someone who is running away, which is why I'd try them for manslaughter.

In Zimmerman's case, it wasn't even on his property, and they still couldn't prove murder.

[jeff47]

27. The judge can throw out the case before it gets a jury. (nt)

[hack89]

32. Hard to imagine that happening here

Hopefully it doesn't.

[NightWatcher]

2. I think SYG defense is going to go the way of the temporary insanity defense

A lot of people can claim it, but in the end only a small percentage will be adjudicated non guilty as a result.

You ran after a guy and climbed a fence. You were not in fear if a fence divided you.

[gollygee]

7. Yeah but the article said

"In one of the most recent Florida court decisions on Stand Your Ground, an appeals court granted Stand Your Ground immunity to a man who went to his car to get a gun before the fatal incident."

Though it didn't give more specifics.

Still, it's working for people. People are basically hunting other people and are getting away with it because of SYG. It could work here too.

[Turbineguy]

81. So you have SYG

You kill somebody, thinking you're covered. You discover killing somebody is not as much fun as you thought. You end up in the slammer for a long stretch.

Society end up with more victims.

[JI7]

3. so claims to be scared yet goes after the person he is afraid of and then lies to police about

whether he shot him ?

hopefully he will be locked away for life.

[msongs]

5. gun owners' fantasy - hunt and kill a human nt

[11 Bravo]

12. I own guns and harbor no such fantasy.

[rhett o rick]

16. After it was nicely pointed out that my original post was insensitive, I will withdraw it.

Last edited Thu Jan 23, 2014, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)

I shouldnt have taken my frustrations out on 11 Bravo. I do apologize.

[11 Bravo]

22. No. In point of fact, over 40 years later I still have nightmares about the two ...

North Vietnamese soldiers I know that I killed; and the fact that they damned sure were trying to kill me has yet to minimize the affect of those dreams.
So let me say it again, and I hope it's crystal fucking clear for you. No, I don't harbor any sweaty fantasies about taking another life in defense of of myself or my family. I hope that clears it up for you.

[heaven05]

28. good for you

same here 40+years later.

[sarisataka]

29. So many fail to understand,

that even when you have a carte blanche legal right to kill, how many of us have gone to lengths to minimize any killing me made. Whether in your jungles or my sand box killing a person is not something lightly done.

Take care brother.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. I will die happy, an old man in my bed, never having used a firearm in anger

if I have my way.

Just like I will die a happy old man in my bed never having used one of many fire extinguishers I have placed around my home.
That's if I have my way. If I don't get my way, I am prepared to deal with the consequences of either, even if I won't like doing it. Even if it might haunt me for having to.

I believe in non-aggression, but I am not a pacifist.

[Walk away]

80. Small chance of killing an innocent kid with...

a fire extinguisher. It's nice you could live with the consequences of shooting another human being but the person you kill won't have that luxury and neither would his family or loved ones.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Prefereable then that no one

put me in that position.

Not sure about your 'innocent kid' comment, but if you are referring to safe storage, yes, absolutely. I have a child. Firearms related stuff goes in a safe, and if I ever suspect that might not be sufficient, I will get rid of the guns entirely. Safety first.

[nomorenomore08]

121. I'm not a huge fan of firearms. Would probably never own one even if I lived in the country.

And I realize the risk of shooting a household member by accident is a lot higher than successfully fending off an intruder. But I still recognize people's right to self-defense, even if I myself would choose differently.

The guy in the OP, though, is a complete piece of shit who deserves 20+ years in prison. And only a Stormfronter would disagree with that.

[tofuandbeer]

134. I was about to write something similar. +1 ...not a gun owner, but I don't think all gun owners evil

[pinboy3niner]

47. After Vietnam I wanted nothing to do with firearms

Well, actually there were times I WANTED one, but that was a manifestation of the distrust and insecurity associated with PTSD among not just war trauma survivors, but probably among survivors or many types of trauma.

But going through those tough times, I know that if I'd had a firearm handy I would not be here today. You know what I mean.

At one point I took all the firearms away from my best friend, another VN vet--and he had a LOT of them. But eventually I had to give them back. And eventually, one Christmas, he put a bullet in his head.

R.I.P., Jim Skinner.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

49. Glad you're still here.

[pinboy3niner]

66. Thanks

I'm glad you're here, too.

I can't emphasize enough what a difference NOT having a firearm made for me.

[Hoyt]

54. Sorry, but thanks for one powerful post.

[riqster]

76. Thanks for the post. That took some sisu to write.

[Starboard Tack]

83. Wow! Great post.

Sorry about your buddy, but maybe you saved a life by posting that. Let's hope so.

[11 Bravo]

98. I hear you my brother, and while I do own guns, I totally respect your choice.

I also had some dark times when I returned to the world, but I think that, for whatever reason, I didn't have to face down all of the same demons that you did. (And I'm damned glad you were successful!)

But I grew up hunting and continue to enjoy it. (I eat what I kill, I think trophy hunters have a screw loose.) I also enjoy target shooting. I keep all of my weapons locked in one gun safe, and I keep the ammunition in a separate safe. I fully support magazine limits, mandatory registration, closing the gun show loophole, and a host of other common-sense gun-control laws. In short, I ain't the stereotypical gun nut that too many DUers believe anyone who owns a firearm must be.

Stay chilly, 3niner, and once again ... glad you made it back.

[pinboy3niner]

162. As I respect yours, brother

Mine is just a different reaction that a lot of us had after seeing the effects of firearms on human bodies in war. And I was badly wounded by AK fire myself, with half my lower jaw and teeth blown away. My jaw had to be reconstructed three times.

For me, it was a dramatic change from depending on firearms for survival in war to renouncing them afterward.

One of my recurring nightmares was of being chased by NVA soldiers while I was unarmed and unable to defend myself.

In-country, I ALWAYS had my weapon with me. When a brother vet found me and sent me a photo of us in VN a couple years ago, there was something I noticed about the photo. It was me, Dan, and Russ (who was later KIA) just outside our firebase. In the photo, I'm the only one holding a rifle. It was ALWAYS with me, as a matter of survival.



After VN, and after seeing--and experiencing--the effects of firearms, I just wanted no part of them.

I'm glad you made it too, brother.

[nomorenomore08]

122. Sorry to hear that. I know PTSD is almost more the norm than the exception, among war vets.

Like with a lot of things, I mostly believe in "live and let live" when it comes to guns. I do support common sense gun control legislation - background checks etc. - but I also believe a person should be able to own a firearm if they want one, and if they're mentally sound with no felony convictions.

[tofuandbeer]

135. Chripes. That's awful. :(

[raven mad]

51. Kick some smart ass, 11 Bravo -

thanks for this reply.

[rhett o rick]

109. "Kick some ass". Yep, and that's what it is all about. That's probably what

the friends of the shooter mentioned in the OP said to him, "Go kick some ass." Lots of high fives at the bar.

That expression is usually reserved for the school yard where the bully is egged on by his followers.

[raven mad]

110. I've never understood bullies.

Which is probably why I don't generally get bullied. They baffle me, and I think it shows.

[rhett o rick]

123. I think I understand bullies. What some people dont realize is that not only is the big guy

that kicks the crippled kid a bully, but so are those that goad him on. That's why I objected to your "kick some ass" post. Sounded like you were egging him on. Congratulating him on some kind of victory, where he "kicked some ass". Maybe I misunderstood. I hope so. This is a message board for "politically liberal".

[raven mad]

146. You did misunderstand, rhett o rick. It was a metaphor/simile/whatever

for using words as opposed to violent action. Bravo understood it, and understood I was neither damning with faint praise nor celebrating. Politically liberal? I've been a voting Democrat since 1972. My mother marched Selma to Montgomery with Dr. King. I've got the creds and the beliefs.

[sibelian]

74. I think you've single-handedly changed my mind about gun owership.

Thank you.

[nomorenomore08]

124. Which is why gun owners should not be blanketly stereotyped. And those who *do* harbor violent

fantasies are nearly always those who've never served in an actual war, i.e. never seen anyone die in the horrible, violent ways their cowardly asses daydream about.

[Feral Child]

108. This is a shameful post.

You should apologize to 11Bravo and delete it.

[raven mad]

112. That was pretty uncalled for, rhett o rick.

11 Bravo served this country faithfully and well; a difference of opinion between you two is just that - it isn't an open invitation to snipe and wound a person who is a courteous poster.

[Eleanors38]

136. Pretty crappy, oh expert on bullies.

[rhett o rick]

139. I agree. I apologize. nm

[Eleanors38]

152. I appreciate that. With respect.

[bowens43]

77. yes you do

[Lizzie Poppet]

78. Oh, look: more bullshit telepsychoanalysis!

Apparently you fantasize about being able to read minds...

[Ghost in the Machine]

25. Anti-gunners Delusion - "gun owners' fantasy - hunt and kill a human nt"

There, I fixed it for you since you're apparently not thinking straight.

I'll admit that there are more than a few "wannabe gunslingers" who would like to be living in the Old Wild West days, *most* gun owners, even if the ONLY REASON they own a gun is for the defense of themselves and their families in case they are ever put in that situation, really and truly HOPE they are NEVER put in that situation to begin with.

Taking the life of another human being may not even give pause to some hardened criminals or the criminally insane people who live among us in this society, but to normal, rational, straight-thinking people, it's an act that can haunt/affect them for the rest of their lives, even if they were put in a "kill or be killed" situation against their will.

Ghost

[baldguy]

39. Because gun owners never do that. Oh, my mistake - THEY SEEM TO DO THAT ALMOST EVERY WEEK!

How can this murderous asshole claim "stand your ground" when he didn't?

[ManiacJoe]

42. One can claim anything he wants.

The facts need not back the claim in order to make the claim, especially when the press is involved.

[Ghost in the Machine]

43. I *DO NOT* think this was a SYG case, and the guy should be charged with murder. Got it?? Ok, good!

However, the poster I replied to implied that it's *EVERY* gun owners "fantasy" to hunt down and kill another human being, and I called BULLSHIT on *that* comment.

Do YOU think EVERY gun owner has a fantasy of hunting down and killing another human being??

[svpadgham]

73. Bow hunting is more challenging.

Sorry, I'm not making light of your post or advocating hunting humans. I agree that gun ownership makes one as likely to harbor that fantasy as owning a bow. Now if you want a real challenge you use a knife and take them down the kosher way. Do I need the sarcasm smiley?

[Ghost in the Machine]

111. I used to bow hunt... with a cherry wood Long Bow when I was younger.. *much* younger lol, and agree

that it is more of a challenge. I have used a recurve for deer hunting, too. I never could stand a compound bow, they just never felt natural to me. In all my years, I never did get a deer with a bow, and I would like to at some point, but I'm much older, and disabled now, so would have to rely on a crossbow. For some reason though, even they don't feel the same as a good old fashioned long bow, which is what I started out learning how to shoot with when I was around 8 years old. The bow was taller than me!! I had to hold it sideways to shoot it, lol.

Peace,

Ghost

[Hoyt]

57. Yeah, Zimmerman said same friggin thing day before murdering Trayvon Martin. Still thinks he's a

responsible gun owner.

To keep the gun crowd in jollies, this is what society gets.

[Ghost in the Machine]

67. Well Hoyt, how many MILLIONS of gun owners DIDN'T shoot anyone that day? Better yet, how many

who were specifically told by a 911 operator to stay in their vehicle and NOT to follow someone??

Zimmerman should have fried. The guy in this case should be tried, and convicted, for murder. I have NO DOUBT in my mind that neither one of these were SYG cases. They BOTH stalked and MURDERED another human being, then hid behind SYG. The Zimmerman case was a miscarriage of justice, IMHO.

With an estimate of over three hundred million firearms in the U.S. and, if memory serves correct, 80 million registered owners, why isn't there literally MILLIONS of murders every day, or even every year, in this country if it's "every gun owners fantasy - to hunt down and kill another human being"? I'll answer that for you... because it's NOT "every gun owners fantasy" to do so.

The anti-gun crowd gets their jollies by focusing on the few bad apples, to the detriment of the many good, responsible gun owners who have no desire to kill anyone and use their guns for hunting, target shooting or, in some cases, never even fire them except during a proficiency test to obtain or renew a concealed carry permit.

I fully realize that there are many cases of senseless murders every day, and even ONE is one too many, but there are also many cases every day where an innocent, law abiding citizen was able to defend their self, and possibly their family, against a criminal who was trying to harm them, and in most cases, wasn't even allowed by law to possess a firearm.

I wish we could just snap our fingers, or have a magic pill or drink to take and we could live in a calm, peaceful society, but we can't and don't. I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't banning or confiscation. The UK did the banning thing. You know what happened?? The KNIFE crime rates went so high they were considering banning knives.

Peace,

Ghost

[Hoyt]

69. To keep those folks in gunz, this is what we get. Not worth it.

Where I live, it's illegal to carry/own a folding baton, but just about any yahoo can carry a gun or amass a gun "collection" that will pollute society for decades.

Not worth it.

[Starboard Tack]

106. I agree mostly with what you say

Banning and confiscating probably won't work because the resistance will be too great. OTOH, I think it will happen eventually, though not for a long time.
Your reference to the UK ban is interesting. Guns have never been the weapon of choice in Britain. Knives have also been restricted in terms of design (switchblades) and length of blade, for decades.
Thankfully, they do not use guns, or the death toll would be much higher. Currently, there are about 300 knife deaths per year in the UK. This number is outrageous and interpreted as a "blood in the streets" scenario, which it is.
But compared to Chicago, it is nothing. Chicago, with 1/20th the population of Britain, boasts a 50% reduction in its murder rate over the past 20 years. It now stands at 400+, of which 75% are firearms related and 11% are knife related.

[Ghost in the Machine]

119. I don't see banning and/or confiscation happening in my lifetime, and I'll be 51 next month...

The logistics just don't support it happening, as far as I'm concerned. They may have a head start with those who have registered weapons, but you have no idea how many unregistered ones there are out there. Are they going to go door to door to every house in the country??

I live in a small town, in the South, and have 15 acres of land. Are they going to go over every inch of my property with metal detectors or gun-sniffing dogs?? In a small town like this, as soon as they leave the first house phones will be ringing all over town. Trust me, it'll happen like that in EVERY town, city, metropolitan area or what have you.

Peace,

Ghost

[Starboard Tack]

120. Well, that's not how it works.

They didn't go around knocking on doors in Britain confiscating guns. That's a NRA fantasy scenario.
When certain weapons are deemed to be illegal, a period of amnesty is established, during which such weapons can be turned in with no questions asked. These periods of amnesty are often extended and repeated,
What happens in reality is, that those who want to keep their guns do so at their own risk, which is virtually zero, unless you get caught with them. That is unlikely to happen if you keep them at home.
I remember back in the 1960's, if you were caught with a firearm in public in the UK, you were looking at a minimum of 5 years. That's a huge deterrent and the reason why criminals are very reluctant to use them. Just ain't worth it.

You may be right about the US in this regard. More value is attached to individual freedom than public safety. Different mindset. Kinda like the healthcare debacle.

[nomorenomore08]

127. A U.K.-esque blanket handgun ban would likely never happen here, I agree.

But possession of firearms in public should probably be mostly outlawed, except perhaps in (genuinely) rural areas. At the least, it should be regulated out the wazoo, much the same way automobiles driven on public roads are.

[Hoyt]

130. The tough Aussies had the guts to pretty much ban gunz in 1996.

Personally, I think ban on toting and certain types of weapons will help quell the proliferation of gunz among callous, yahoo type gun fanciers.

Whatever, if we do nothing for another decade, there will be another 100 million of the dang things to deal with when society wises up.

[nomorenomore08]

132. I agree we absolutely can't just "do nothing." Hoping for U.K./Australia-style gun laws is probably

futile here - and I don't even necessarily want to ban all handguns either, though their rate of gun violence versus ours is hard to argue with. But restrictions of the kind we've been talking about on this thread, along with an accompanying shift in cultural attitudes, will hopefully at least cut down on the slaughter a bit.

[Hoyt]

133. Yes. Changes in cultural attitudes certainly impacted smoking, another foul, harmful addiction that

is costly to society.

[nomorenomore08]

125. Which is why those who excessively cater to gun owners are even worse than those who

mindlessly stereotype them. The latter are simply misguided, the former actually get people killed.

[Paladin]

82. There's evidence every day in the DU Gun Control/RKBA Group.....

.....confirming that "gun owners' fantasy" is a very real thing---not with all gun owners, certainly, but with way too many, nonetheless.

This shooting reminds me of the sick incident a few years back where the old vigilante in Texas shot those two unarmed burglars on his neighbor's property, ignoring the phone pleas of law enforcement communications personnel. The old man became a hero to the gun rights movement for the unwarranted killings; to their credit, some (not all) of DU's Gun Enthusiasts condemned his actions.

[Ghost in the Machine]

115. I remember that old codger.. shot them right as the cops rolled up in front of his house...

I thought he should have gone to jail, too. He wasn't justified, IMHO, to shoot them.

Peace,

Ghost

[Eleanors38]

137. There is a lot of prejudice and hate in the hearts of some gun banners.

[Chemisse]

33. That's not a fair statement.

Many - probably most - people who own guns don't ever want to have to shoot a person.

You are probably thinking of the loud-mouthed, cowardly cowboy types who want to be carrying a concealed weapon everywhere they go.

[Skip Intro]

58. Sad when this kind of drivel is taken as valid. as a reasonable view.

Biden is a gun-owner. So is Gabby Giffords. So is Kerry. You think they fantasize about hunting and killing humans?

[Lizzie Poppet]

65. Typical GD gun thread.

That sort of mindless horseshit is what they invariably descend to.

[Skip Intro]

88. Like programmed bots. n/t

[Hoyt]

104. Do they routinely carry gun in public, practice to shoot people, drool over AR15s, promote gunz etc.

I think not.

Most gun fanciers do.

[Lizzie Poppet]

64. I know not a single gun owner with such a fantasy.

And I know quite a few...

[Hoyt]

70. Ever shot at a target resembling a human, practiced drawing, etc.

[Lizzie Poppet]

75. Of course. But that's not what the poster I responded to said.

Nor are they equivalent. The poster claimed that the fantasy was to "hunt and kill a human." I don't hunt anything, human or animal. In a defensive situation, I'd be shooting to stop, not kill (and only one in five non-suicide gunshot victims dies). I'd vastly prefer that an attacker did not die, in fact.

I have shot at vaguely human-looking targets on occasion: those blocky, squarish silhouette kind. I don't buy them, though (I much prefer traditional "bulls-eye" targets, as I've been trained to focus on a very small target area, not something as large as a human silhouette). But sometimes that's what's in place at some of the ranges I go to. I object rather strongly to the realistic style targets that represent some sort of stereotype, like a Middle-Eastern "terrorist" or a black "thug."

Moreover, equating the sort of "fantasy" that poster was rather obviously invoking and training with one's weapon is a self-serving, inaccurate conflation of mental states. Obviously. It's the same sort of regrettably typical "telepsychoanalysis" that these gun threads always feature so prominently. Pure forum cancer...

[chrisa]

160. It's disgusting how gun ownership is fetishized in America.

In this way, our culture is mentally sick. These people give responsible gun owners a bad name.

You never hear about responsible gun owners because they don't bring attention to themselves. They don't have gun-hero murder fantasies, fetishize their guns, or use them as a "man card." They also don't feel like owning a gun makes them the world's biggest bad ass, or that they're part of some phony army or something.

[bullwinkle428]

6. Charles Pierce talks about bill to EXPAND "SYG" law in Florida:

"Florida, where only one person has been shot to death for texting at the movies so just shut up, liberal scum, is trying to decide how to make itself safer so Sean Hannity will feel more comfortable moving down there to kill bonefish. Luckily, the National Rifle Association is there to help."

The current bill would amend the state's expansive Stand Your Ground law-which permits residents to use deadly force in numerous circumstances-so that it also allows the nebulous "threatened use of force." In effect, it means that gun owners could walk free for brandishing their gun in a threatening manner or firing a shot indiscriminately to "warn" a potential assailant. That also means gun owners would get blanket immunity from the state's "10-20-life" law, which mandates an automatic 10-year sentence for anyone accused of flashing or using a gun in the commission of a felony. Numerous Florida politicians, including Jeb Bush, have long credited that measure with significantly decreasing the state's gun crimes.

Read more: NRA Warning Shots Gun Law In Florida - Florida's Nutty New Gun Law - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/nra-warning-shots-gun-law-in-florida-012114

[AtheistCrusader]

35. This is why it is important for the NRA to not be the ONLY option for gun owners

to have an advocacy voice in this country. Warning shots are a terrible idea, with deadly consequences. There is nothing about putting some element of the onus of legal liability for self defense where it belongs, on the attacker, that requires enabling some people to behave like the cartoon Yosemite Sam.

We need an advocacy voice that isn't a mouthpiece for right-wing policies. Firearm ownership or Self Defense is neither a right or left wing position.

[spin]

63. Let assume that I am legally carrying a firearm in Florida and I am attacked ...

by a man with a knife. I sincerely believe he intends to stab me. I have good reason to fear for my life. At close range, a knife can be as deadly as if not more deadly than a handgun.

I draw my handgun and point it at him. He runs. He then calls the police and tells them that HE was threatened by a man with a handgun. I get arrested and end up in jail.

That's why a Florida concealed carry instructor I know told his classes, "If you draw your weapon, it better come out smoking. The police may feel that if you didn't shoot your attacker, you were not really in fear for your life."

In many cases a person with a carry permit is able to stop a violent attack without ever firing his handgun. Isn't this a better result than the bad guy getting shot?

Gun Drawn But No Shots Fired...What Should You Do?



You have received your authorization to carry a Leathal Weapon. You have never had to draw your firearm in self-defense...until today. What should you do if this happens?

The majority of Legally Armed Citizens will never have to draw their firearm in a self-defense incident. However, no one knows who will have to do this. It is better to know what you should do if you are forced to draw your weapon. One thing that is certain, if you have to draw your weapon, there will be two or three different stories about what happened during the incident. You, the person or persons who threatened you, and bystanders who witnessed the incident. The two complete opposite stories will come from you, and the person or people who caused you to draw your firearm. This is why you need to get your story to the local authorities before anyone else. There are different theories about contacting the authorities. Most attorneys will say to not say anthing at all. Especially if no shots were fired, and no one was hurt. However, if they are wrong, you will wind up paying them or some other attorney to defend you if your arrested. Better to speak up and let the authorities know what happened, and go on the record before they are sent out to get you.

***snip***

If you have to draw your pistol but no shots were fired, and the incident ends without conflict, holster your pistol, and get out of the area before something else happens. Call the local Law Office, Police or Sheriff, and tell them exactly what happend. Let them know that your have a CCW Permit or License, and you were concerned about harm done to you. Thats why you drew your pistol in self-defense. You want to go on the record about what happened. Even if the person on the phone says not to worry about it, explain that you want to have the information recorded. The reason you want to do this is incase someone else comes in at a latter time, saying they want to press charges against you, or a witness tells them a different story then you told. Get a copy of your statement, and keep it for your records. Make sure it has the name of the employee who took it, the time, and date when it was taken.

Lets face it, you are a Law Abiding Citizen that wants to stay on the right side of the law. You have been authorized by law, to carry your weapon for self-defense. This was the reason your weapon was drawn. It was in self-defense. To find out more on this subject, speak to your local Sheriff. Get to know your Sheriff because, it is usually his office that gets the majority of calls about brandishing of weapons, or calls on this subject. Also speak to your personal attorney about this subject.
http://legallyarmed.com/resources/aftershooting.html

[Hoyt]

8. Another gun fancier who would have called police and stayed put, except he had a gun. So, like Zman

he struck out to right the world's wrongs with his gun.

[BrotherIvan]

45. THIS!

That seems to be a big disagreement between gunners and control freaks. If you have the sense of false security with a gun, you are not spending time thinking of how to escape from the situation or keep yourself or others from harm. You are in fact escalating the situation.

[Hoyt]

53. Hard to believe gun crowd does not see that. Well, maybe they do and just don't care.

[tblue37]

62. Remember the case a year or two ago in which some guy in line at

Starbucks escalated an argument and pulled a gun--just because he had one and therefore could?

I think I will look for that story when I have time tomorrow.

[BrotherIvan]

91. Or went out to his car, got his gun and came back

Otherwise, why would you have it in your glove box? To shoot other motorists? What purpose does that weapon serve?

[Eleanors38]

140. I believe the black Florida woman who did this got 20 yrs.

Yet some here held this example as a racist application of the law. Can't understand the inconsistency sometimes.

[PotatoChip]

68. Exactly. All he had to do was lock the doors

and call 911 if he truly thought the guy was a burglar. Why go out and confront him?

But personally, I don't even think a case can be made for that. The article said that the victim was leaving with nothing in his hands.

And even if (hypothetically) it was burglary, say theft of something on the property, so what? The "burglar" hadn't entered the home, therefore was not a threat to the people in it.

[BrotherIvan]

90. Exactly

I actually can't conceive of a time when carrying a weapon will save your life. Though I am sure there will be plenty of gunners who have lotsa links along shortly...

The only instance I can imagine where you could get the jump on someone is if they break into your house, you hear it, you have time to grab and load your weapon (which responsible owners always claim is locked up and unloaded) and then you are able to stalk and get the jump on the guy in your house. Perhaps the idea that you can claim to have a weapon is a threat to use against an intruder to get them to run away.

In fact, the only instance I can see is in a wilderness area with bear and such. And in that case, because said bear is not holding a gun on you. But in the case of a street attack, or having a gun in the glove box, how the hell are you planning to use your weapon? If someone attacks or jumps you or puts a gun in your face, how on earth will you be able to get to your weapon in time to do anything? I guess the scenarios on TV where someone is holding up a store and pointing the gun at someone else and you save the day all supercop style, but any other situation does not compute. I hope someone will help me out here.

My friend was mugged in NYC, had a gun pointed in his face. He was scared, the dude looked like he was mentally ill or very high. But my friend said, there was nothing to do other than give the guy what he wanted and hope the gun wasn't loaded. He couldn't have reached for a gun. And for damn sure, that would have spooked the guy and likely escalated the situation. A concealed weapon would not have protected him. He only could have used it after the guy took his wallet and watch--both replaceable--and was walking away.

[A Simple Game]

94. In most cases the only thing a gun is good for is to give a coward or a fool, some courage. n/t

[Eleanors38]

141. "Most" of over 80,000,000 fellow Ameticans? And this talk of civil war.

[A Simple Game]

147. I should have specified concealed carry people. I doubt there are

80,000,000 of them. I have been a gun owner in the past so I used to be one of that number, don't hunt any more so gave my guns to grandchildren for hunting. A gun is useless if you don't plan to use it.

I don't know what talk of civil war means? Are you planning to start one? Personally I think a revolution, and likely a worldwide one, is imminent but anyone would be foolish to fight it with a gun, at least in this country.

[Eleanors38]

151. I have friends who carry concealed and they seem OK to me.

In fact I didn't know about their carry habits until they told me some time later.

A favorite topic of controllers here is how gunnerz act like they want another civil war. When I saw your comments about "most" gun owners, I assumed you might be interested as well. I glad your aspersions are more confined!

I'm interested in your "revolution" outlook. Where, when, & how (in post-mass media times) will it manifest itself, and would we be able to recognize it when it does.

[A Simple Game]

155. My remark may be somewhat hyperbolic but I believe for the most part to be true.

I mainly refer to ones like the man in the OP. Without a gun, he locks his door and picks up the phone.

I know some I would trust, I also know some I hope never get a permit. I don't hunt anymore, I lost interest, but I also had to be very careful because I tended to get excited and could be dangerous, probably the main reason I gave up the sport. I know I am not alone with that problem. I also am not afraid to walk down a street full of strangers and see little need for a concealed gun. Although I do see some people with a legitimate need, in my opinion and from people I know that carry, for most it is just vanity.

I had one person at work tell me about the arsenal he had and hoped a bus full of wet-backs broke down in front of his house. I said you have kind of dark complexion to be saying that. I think if he had a gun right then I wouldn't be here now. I honestly had always thought he was part Hispanic, I guess not.

As for revolution, I think the abuses by the police are coming close to push back time, and when the richest 85 people own as much as the bottom 3.5 billion people I hope we are near the tipping point for an economic revolution. Other than perhaps a lone gunman here or there, I don't expect any of this to be armed conflict, that would be just foolish and do more to hurt the cause than help it.

[Eleanors38]

156. I don't see the police being much of a factor...

one way or another. My take on LEOs is that they constitute a weak force in the face of social change. Some folks will seek confrontation with them for various reasons, some legitimate, but a ground-up revolution will take much more, and will be met by much more than the police.

Currently, there seems to be no means, no motivation, no competency to convey a wide-spread & legitimate set of issues which would move Americans. The past was based on mass media models, which are crumbling in the face of highly individuated, self-centered communication. I still ask: What would the revolution look like, and would we recognize it? Perhaps some folks in Tunisia know better than the most astute political organizers in America.

[A Simple Game]

157. What would the revolution look like? It may have already started.

Perhaps we don't recognize it because it may be happening around us as we speak.

Arab Spring.

DLC and third way going out of business.

Iceland jailing bankers.

Occupy.

These are all the 99% against the 1%, that and just the general mood and apparent awakening of the 99%.

Etc., etc., little, and some big, things already starting to happen.

[Eleanors38]

158. I hope you are right.

[A Simple Game]

161. Me too. I'm ok but I want it for my children and grandchildren. n/t

[TBF]

9. The Zimmerman case is precedent -

it's open season now. From old men in movie theaters to young men "fearing" someone is a burglar. Very, very dangerous precedent.

[Skip Intro]

55. Zimmerman didn't use SYG as a defense. n/t

[TBF]

71. Did I say he did? The case is still precedent -

shoot the unarmed teenager and walk away ...

[Skip Intro]

86. They were both armed. n/t

[Dawgs]

92. Trayvon Martin was armed?

Or are you talking about something else? Glob, I hope you are.

[Skip Intro]

99. Poster said this was shooting an unarmed teen and then

walking away.

But the person shot was not a teen, and was not unarmed.

[TBF]

96. Oh well that makes perfect sense then -

if you chase someone with an intent to shoot them, and they actually have a weapon on them, that makes it self-defense. I see.

NRA = Bizarro World

[Skip Intro]

100. Doubt the shooter is a member of the NRA.

Nobody said it was alright to chase and then shoot the guy, but facts are important, and the person shot was not a teen, nor unarmed, as you implied.

[TBF]

103. I did not "imply" that - I spoke about the Trayvon Martin

case and I spoke about this case. I did not say that the facts were exactly the same. There is enough precedent for a good defense lawyer to work with though - and you are completely dishonest if you express otherwise.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

102. Maybe not.

But it was taken into consideration by the jury, we know this for a fact.

[Hoyt]

105. He did not have to because when SYG was enacted in Florida, it changed definition of self-defense to

essentially SYG.

So yes, Zimmerman did use that defense. And in fact, the juror interviewed said SYG was part of jury's decision, and the judge's instructions to the jury included SYG.

[TBA]

10. And Gov. Rick Scott Just Proclaimed His Intent to Make FL the #1 Tourist Destination in the World

And wants to spend 100 million in new advertising.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-01-14/news/os-rick-scott-florida-tourism-scott-maxwell-20140114_1_tourism-execs-tourism-ads-tourism-promotion

I find it very ironic he also supports SYG. FL must be seen as a lawless wild wild west by the international community.

[bluestate10]

50. Why would anyone want to visit a state where bumping into a person at

a gas station can get the visitor killed if the visitor bumps into the wrong person.

[jmowreader]

56. Is he planning to put a bulletproof vest rental booth at every airport and weigh station?

[DevonRex]

13. This is a case I would be careful with.

Depending on what you're fighting.

[KurtNYC]

14. Another source has a gun in the victim's pants

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/2014/01/21/another-shooting-has-floridians-asking-if-stand-your-ground-makes-any-sense/index.html

[BrotherIvan]

46. Even if this is true

He did not use the gun. The murderer wasn't not threatened in his home. The victim was running away. Even if the robber had a valuable piece of property that he had stolen and was running away, since when is that grounds for lethal force?

[oldhippie]

159. "... since when is that grounds for lethal force?

Since about 1973 in Texas:

Texas Penal Code, Chapter 9:

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.


Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Case law has held that "... the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means;" does not include calling the police. If the victim does not know who the perp is, calling the police is not effective.

[randome]

15. Surveillance cameras?

Paranoid and armed and looking for someone to shoot. Who was the danger in this case?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[oneshooter]

113. I have two cameras at my front gate

and another on my barn, looking at my front door.

Does that make me paranoid?

[loudsue]

17. When black people in florida start shooting white people in florida under stand your ground

we'll start seeing convictions on these murders. White people shooting black people? No such convictions.

These laws are full of shit, just like people in Florida who take advantage of these laws.

[seveneyes]

18. No whites in this case

http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2014/1/17/man_found_shot_id.html

[loudsue]

20. Gawd. That is even more fucked up.

What the hell was that dude thinking? What is wrong with people??

On edit: That guy WILL be convicted. Even though he pretty much did the same thing that Zimmerman did...which was also wrong.

[seveneyes]

21. Youth and adrenaline

With no self control and maybe some other mental issues.

[gollygee]

38. I don't know if he'll get convicted

There are two issues:

1. White people can do things without punishment while the same things cause people of color to be punished at a higher rate.

2. The lives of African Americans are not valued in the criminal justice system as they should be.

African Americans are let down by the criminal justice system on both counts. They are more likely to be suspected, arrested, and convicted, and get worse punishments. But also, if they're crime victims, the criminal justice system doesn't respond in the same way as when a white person is a victim.

Based on the first part, I could see it leading to a conviction, but due to the second, with the victim being an African American young man, it might not as his life isn't as valued in the criminal justice system as it should be.

There's more of a chance of conviction since just #2 is in play, but who knows.

[noiretextatique]

107. lots of crazy results from SYG laws

including gangbangers being acquitted for killing other gang members. in the eyes of this law, murderers of all races and ethnicities are apparently equal.

[Eleanors38]

143. You're short-circuiting a perfectly good Zimmy thread!

[Blue_Tires]

150. but the point still stands

If/when blacks in FL start getting *regularly* acquitted for shooting whites and hiding behind SYG, see if it takes the state legislature longer than 60 seconds to revise the law...

[Blue_Tires]

148. +1

[blkmusclmachine]

23. I'll never set foot in FL.

May I suggest you do the same?

[GoneOffShore]

36. Have been to Florida 4 times in 65 years.

That's about 3 times too many.

And am not planning to return anytime soon.

[loudsue]

40. When my family wants to do Disney, I always suggest the west coast.

I just don't like to go to Florida for any reason, unless there is no alternative at all.

I like the old Disney anyway...Raiders of the Lost Ark is great.

[gopiscrap]

24. this is fucked up the SYG laws have got to go

[Turbineguy]

26. SYG seems to be there

to give the ordinary fellow a taste of the enjoyment of killing people.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

30. K&R.

[AAO]

31. Floriduh is one of 3 states I will never visit

along with Arizona and Texas. Unless a heck of a lot of things change, anyway.

[GoneOffShore]

37. I'll add Utah to that list.

[AAO]

52. That's one place I've never even considered going to. OK 4 then.

[etherealtruth]

41. How the F is this even possible?

I hate state or region bashing... I live in michigan which has become a little slice of hell over the past couple of years.... but, come on, even our crazies have not simply made murder legal.

[pinboy3niner]

44. He's been charged with 2nd-degree murder

He can make an SYG claim, and if he were white he might even have a shot. In his case, it's a lost cause.

[DirkGently]

95. All that's happened is the person "claims" self-defense.

The whole flavor of this thread is pretty specious. First, it invokes "the hoodie" which seems to imply a Zimmerman / racial overtone, which is strange given the shooter is black. Then it speculates that the killer, who has been arrested and charged, could raise Stand Your Ground, although he has not done so.

So, while it's pretty outrageous the person has said they claim self-defense, it's not as though Bad Old Florida has set free another person accused in a racially-charged killing.

[freshwest]

48. What part of this don't people understand?

STAND. YOUR. GROUND.

STAND:

Not run and jump over a fence, follow down a sidewalk, stalk with a vehicle, go back and forth, or grab someone FIRST.

STAND THERE, FOOL!

ON YOUR GROUND:

Not your neighbor's yard, not down the street, not on a public sidewalk or your neighborhood's property or at someone else's vehicle.

YOUR GROUND. NOT THEIRS.

Z-Thug had his own ground in his vehicle. TM had his ground, the public sidewalk. Who was standing their ground and who was intruding on someone else's space?

This is why Z is a murderer. And so is this guy. And BTW, by this loon's reasoning, since the crime was that a guy jumped a fence, well, lookee what he did. Good thing for him the next door neighbor didn't shoot this asshat for jumping the fence unto his property.

This crap is just vigilantism, with the guy with the gun playing the part of policeman, judge, jury and executioner.

Irony is dead, along with this young man that got shot. It is part of some people's job description to jump over a fence for utilities, kids jump over fences to visit other kids, and yes, criminals jump fences.

Now killers jump fences, too, but no one sees the irony in the man doing the exact same thing that he murdered someone for doing.

This was done in cold blood, the loon or friend had seen someone on a security camera and went outside with a gun to do what?

Have a neighborly chat? Get a description for the cops? What the heck was he watching, a crime drama and wanted to play Rambo?

This is abnormal behavior. I hope he goes down big for this. But if the judge can invoke SYG after the verdict, it will always be used.

[flvegan]

59. Another emotion laden, factless trial by internet. Really, again?

Can't we please wait for facts, testimony...I dunno, maybe something from someone who witnessed it or was at least THERE before we go all "BUUUURRRRRN HEERRRRRRR" <----Monty Python, sorry.

Sorry, nevermind. Armchair prosecution wannabe counsels to your ready, and get at it!

[LanternWaste]

97. I don't think that benign discussions on internet message board

I don't think that benign discussions on internet message boards are in any way tied to legal testimony, legal trials, or legal prosecutors... outside of the petulant and the melodramatic, that is.

However, I certainly do understand the ethical convenience in holding others to a higher standard of accuracy than we hold ourselves.

[Vashta Nerada]

60. And it happened in Florida. I'm shocked.

Shocked!

[Cha]

61. So good he denied it at first.. that

shouldn't go well for the asshole.

[JackInGreen]

72. Aaaah Florida

I wonder how long it's going to take before it's been realized that they've legalized aggressive murder, or if anyone in the legislature is going to care.

[Rex]

79. LET HIM! HE is fucked!

He denied shooting the person, that shows clearly he is a liar and not to be trusted by police. I think he has no ground to stand on.

[malthaussen]

85. Boy, I guess all those people who said the Zimmerman decision...

... would open the floodgates to more "SYG" shootings deserved to be laughed at as they were, eh?

-- Mal

[DirkGently]

89. This person hasn't claimed SYG. Neither did Zimm.

So, yes, that would be a little silly.

SYG is bad law, but c'mon. The article says this person has been charged with murder, and speculates as to whether SYG could be raised.

[polichick]

87. Pants falling down and a hoodie - what a surprise...

Nothing like a little profiling.

[Eleanors38]

144. Do blacks profile, too?

[polichick]

154. Some whites, some blacks, some people profile.

[tblue]

93. Both are black. They won't let Smith go.

Everyone knows you can't be black and stand your ground.

This man murdered this kid, or so it appears, and it shouldn't matter what color either of them is. If the shooter was white, well, you already know what would happen next. Florida is so warped to even have this law. Murder is murder. Poor kid. He's so young.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

101. Every gun owner is a responsible gun owner.....

Until they're not.

[oneshooter]

114. Every car owner is a responsible car owner..........

Until they're not.

[PowerToThePeople]

116. Car's primary (and designed) purpose, method of transportation.

Gun's primary (and designed) purpose, killing.

[oneshooter]

117. And yet people are killed why using

or even being near a vehicle all the time. It seems that despite its"primary (and designed) purpose" they are used to kill and/or injure people at an amazing rate.

[PowerToThePeople]

118. Jet Ski/ Boat/ Toaster/ Light bulb socket.

One is on the rise, one is falling...

Report: Gun deaths outpace motor vehicle deaths in Washington.

Nationally, motor-vehicle deaths still outpace gun deaths. However, the gap between the two numbers has been narrowing; since 1999, motor-vehicle deaths have declined by 20 percent while firearm deaths have jumped by 10 percent.

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2013/05/29/report-gun-deaths-outpace-motor-vehicle-deaths-in-washington/

[hack89]

126. That is a reflection of mental health care in America

Two thirds of gun deaths are sucides - and our sucide rate is has been going up. Gun deaths due to crime and accidents have been steadily falling for decades.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

128. Idiotic comparison.

Cars require training to drive and operate, insurance, and are subject to heavy restrictions and requirements.


Any jackass without a felony can buy a rifle at Walmart, or any jackass WITH a felony can pay cash for one outside a gun show.


Now if you support requiring insurance for all firearms, and mandatory training maybe that's something we can agree on. However, I have yet to meet a gun fetishists who would support that extra step between his/her murderous toys.



Not to mention guns are and were designed for one reason, to kill.

[Hoyt]

131. Yeah, but Oneshooter, no one here has a user name like Onecardriver.

[tjl148]

129. This happened in Orlando Fl?

I live in the Orlando area and I have not heard anything about this incident. I don't always hear the local news so I might have missed it. I tried to check with back issues of the Orlando Sentinel and couldn't find mention of it. Anyone have a local source for info on this?

[Eleanors38]

145. Yep, the BigNewz™ exception. Had a similar case in Austin. Knife used=obscurity.

[pinboy3niner]

149. Orlando Sentinel:

Police charge man in MetroWest fatal shooting
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-01-17/news/os-ricardo-sanes-shooting-metrowest-20140117_1_police-charge-man-apartment-complex-metrowest

Another 'stand your ground' case? MetroWest shooting suspect claims he was attacked
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-01-17/news/os-metrowest-shooting-stand-your-ground-20140117_1_trayvon-martin-apartment-complex-metrowest

[tjl148]

153. Thanks

Missed the news on this. Thanks for the links.

[Th1onein]

142. You know, these days, I'm feeling distinctly afraid of my ex-mother-in-law....

I'm thinking about going to the gun store, buying a gun, driving over to her house, and just pumping her full of lead. Because, you know, I'm afraid. (Don't worry, I'll dress her in a hoodie after I've taken care of everything.)