the end of life is not to be happy nor to achieve pleasure and avoid pain but to do the will of God

[arely staircase]

Come what may-

MLK

[longship]

1. What god? nt

[arely staircase]

2. you would have to as the Rev. King

what he meant. But since that is sadly impossible I think you can interpret "do the will of God" as do the right thing and he would be fine with it.

[H2O Man]

5. Well done!

Very well done, indeed.

[longship]

9. One would presume that it's not the god of the Southern Republicans.

What does one do when both sides of an issue claim God on their side?

As it has always been, as it will likely always be, until we set aside such foolishness.

The Nazi SS wore a belt buckle that said, God is on are side.

Gott mit uns. God with us

As it has ever been.

Martin Luther King Jr. Indeed used god to bring forth his message. In context of the culture of the 50's and the 60's that was entirely appropriate.

But now, the only people claiming God's authority are people with a far more insidious agenda.

I will leave it there.

[arely staircase]

14. as far as the context he chose

He used the context of a Christian minister - which he was. But like I said I think non beleivers can assume he meant do the right thing absent of any need for belief in God.

[longship]

17. That would be my belief.

However, his religious framing was what was possibly necessary in the culture of the times. Regardless, like Ghandi -- one of MLK's inspirations -- MLK did what he did because he was very smart and very astute about what would work.

He was great because of what he achieved, not because he used religion to achieve it.

MLK's activism was not about religion.

[arely staircase]

18. I think you are implying MLKs Christian beliefs were not sincere

and merely expedient snd necessary for him to have achieved his goals in the time and place he did. And while the lattter may be true- that Christian imagery was necessary I think saying he didn't have a deep sincere Christian faith ignores the fact the man was a trained theologian and Christian minister by trade. And his politics , including opposition to the war and support for labor rights were very much informed and driven by his religious faith.

[longship]

19. Quite the contrary.

MLK framed the movement in religion but many who joined the movement were of diverse religious beliefs.

I do believe that his title of reverend gave him a veneer of credibility. From my perspective as an atheist it is sad that his message needed that veneer. This is something non-believers have been fighting for some time, that one has to be religious to be good. Or that non-believers are somehow bad.

[arely staircase]

20. sure his movement was diverse

But to say he Rev. title was just something that gave the movement credibility ignores the fact he became a minister with a PhD in theology way before he became an activist. It isn't just some self applied title that he thought would sound good. It is very much what he devoted himself to intellectually vsry early on.

[longship]

22. I have no problem with that.

As an atheist, I acknowledge religion (like many cultural things) to be both a good and a bad influence. MLK was an example of the good side. But the movement of racial equality was secular. To portray it anyway else is to do a disservice to what MLK achieved.

Note that I am not discounting that he wrapped his rhetoric in religion. Indeed, that may have given him what could be called power. I have no problem with that.

But I would not want racial equality to be framed as a strictly religious issue. It is not. That's my point.

Best regards.

[arely staircase]

23. then I don't think we disagree on anything

Well the whole existance of God thing. Lol. But nothing on this topic. Have a nice day.

[longship]

26. Agreed. The best to you, too.

It's often difficult to get ones point across in these forums, especially when one is not well versed in communicating. Like myself.

I keep trying, but some will still say that I am very trying.

[snooper2]

32. didn't he believe that non-believers would go to hell?

[arely staircase]

33. I don't know nt

[arely staircase]

7. see post 2 nt

[tazkcmo]

3. So

does this mean that neither being happy or going with out pain is in god's plan? If so, why am I supposed to worship him/her/it? I'd prefer a god that wants me to be happy and pain free.

[arely staircase]

4. see post 2 nt

[tazkcmo]

8. OK

Then I'll just continue on as I have before as neither you nor King can explain just what the hell that means.

[arely staircase]

15. ok nt

[gcomeau]

10. "And conveniently enough...

...the 'will of God' and the will of me just happen to line up!"

- Almost every theist who ever lived.

[rug]

11. “Paul’s Letter to American Christians"

You can hear him deliver the sermon here:

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/documentsentry/doc_pauls_letter_to_american_christians/

He was 27 years old.

[arely staircase]

12. plus many nt

[Whisp]

13. MLK was a wise man but I would rather do the will of dog

and bury soup bones in my back yard than ask the one he's talking about for anything or guidance.

sorry to any religious people here, but I will never, ever understand.

[arely staircase]

16. I am sure he would think that is fine

I really can't speak for him but I feal safe in guessing he would have no problem with that. Nor do I.

[longship]

21. Well put, arely. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

25. God's will is that LGBT rights become the law at once.

Those clerics who teach otherwise are vomiting on the will of God. Mocking his will, his voice, his command. Those who support such clerics have replaced God with a person and then they, in turn, vomit on God's will. For they worship the man who hates along with them instead.

[Rex]

46. It is the everquest for understanding, just in a way alien to you.

Religion and science both have one thing in common, they arose from the human need to answer our endless curiosity about the universe. I will never understand faith, but many live by it.

[B Calm]

24. are we following the old testament?

[arely staircase]

34. if one is an orthodox jew

Definitely. From Christians the answer will vary depending on the individual. I believe MLK was a Baptists. Baptists are congregationalists so there isn't any real catechism and interpretation of scripture will vary somewhat between different churches.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. If one actually did follow the Old Testament laws, one would be arrested

because those laws order the stoning of others for many reasons, sartorial, dietary, and tonsorial choices, gardening choices, you name it. Example

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

King James Version (KJV)


18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you;

[arely staircase]

45. correct. even an orthodox jew in Israel could not follow it to the letter. nt

[enki23]

27. Hardly the only thing the guy got wrong.

Are we to be surprised that an ordained minister and doctor of theology would say something pious? He was, in many ways, an idiot. He was also a plagiarist, and a philanderer. But idiots, plagiarists, and philanderers can still be truly great humans, once in a while.

[arely staircase]

29. what a lovely post nt

[Rex]

44. Well then I guess you will be sorry to hear this but history considers

him to be one of the greatest orators ever to exist, way up there with Jesus and Mahatma Gandhi.

[enki23]

47. Jebus, I forget sometimes that people don't actually read.

I heartily approve of the guy's legacy, and all the (actually existing) things he stood for. Every goddamned one. And enough not to care *at all* that he had some flaws, some serious and some less so. But that legacy is considerably bigger then some people's attempts to claim it all for some stupid religious bullshit that was just as often on the lips of assholes with clubs and fire hoses. Whether he himself had the poor judgement to be religious or not.

As for orator... if we remember him as some guy who gave great speeches then I think we've lost the whole fucking point.

[Rex]

48. Yeah I read your post, duh, that is why I replied.

Wow you sound pissed off, but I really don't give two shits.

[Iggo]

28. Jeez.

[randome]

30. Myself, I'm more beholden to the will of Starquin, the Five-In-One. He comes first!

http://books.google.com/books?id=wGc0AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT9&lpg=PT9&dq=starquin+five-in-one&source=bl&ots=ELba6bxH14&sig=fMK0-B5pF9r1XIsHxhriNpSNhC8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E9TfUpCNI6zNsQTo2IHICA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=starquin%20five-in-one&f=false
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[liberal_at_heart]

31. I disagree but if that is what Dr. King needed to motivate him to do what he did then we are all

the better for it. The fact is, is that he did what he did whatever his motivation and we all benefit from what he did. I am grateful to him.

[GeorgeGist]

35. That's some seriously ...

fucked up thinking.

[arely staircase]

37. for a Baptist preacher? hardly

I am guessing it comes with the territory - though there are probably very disperate intepretations between individual baptist preachers as to what that will would be given the fact that MLK and Jerry Falwell were both Baptist ministers. I am pretty sure in MLK's case it would be Jesus's commandment to love one's neighbor and treat others as you would want them to treat you. In Falwell's case it would probably be something about lesbian witches ruining america with their hot girl on girl sorcery.

[Lizzie Poppet]

36. Great example of how religion can motivate good.

Personally, I believe that God is "just pretend." But that doesn't stop me from recognizing that religion has often been a force for good...

[NightWatcher]

38. You better be good for goodness sake -Santa Claus

I hate how religion teaches people to be complacent in this life in order to reap rewards in the next life. It sounds to me like a huge con job perpetrated by people who wanted to keep the masses from rising up against them.

[arely staircase]

39. wait didn't MLK invoke it in order to get the masses TO rise up? nt

[NightWatcher]

40. even he realized that SOMETHING must be done

I admire the balance he achieved between religious complacency and universal justice.

[arely staircase]

43. even he? I'm not sure I have heard MLKs part in the civil rights movement described that way.

Even he. lol.

[Rex]

42. Words I would expect from a Baptist preacher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_Avenue_Baptist_Church

[Cleita]

49. That's a standard Christian position and MLK was a devout Christian.

Many of us are of a different opinion.