We Need To Stop Trusting The Police

[MrScorpio]

Last Monday, a jury found two former Fullerton, California, police officers not guilty on one charge of excessive force, two of manslaughter, and one of second-degree murder in the beating death of Kelly Thomas. The 2011 altercation, which lead to Thomas’s death five days later, was captured in detail by surveillance cameras and audio from police recorders—on tape, the cops can be seen beating the homeless man mercilessly and Tasing him twice in the face. At one point, Thomas is moaning “Help me dad” as the officers swing their nightsticks at him.

That fairly clear video evidence, along with the activism of Kelly’s father Ron (a former sheriff’s deputy) and the mobilization outraged community, ensured Thomas’s death got a lot more media coverage than the killing of homeless people by police normally do. But the officers are still walking free after beating an unarmed man to death. (In fact, one of them, Jay Cicinelli, already wants his job back.) How does that happen? A great many people in the community are asking that same question—multiple protests against the outcome of the trial this week resulted in 14 arrests

One answer to that question is that the jurors, like most Americans, probably thought that cops are generally almost always right. A Gallup Poll from last month found that 54 percent of respondents had “high” or “very high” amounts of trust in police officers. People think more favorably of cops than they do journalists, politicians, lawyers, or even members of the clergy. The only authority figures more trusted than the police are doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and grade school teachers.

That trust is buttressed by laws that grant cops various kinds of immunity against prosecution. For instance, in 2010, a Seattle cop named Ian Birk shot and killed John T. Williams, a Native American woodcarver, and after the dust settled, a review panel had found that the shooting was unjustified, Birk had resigned from the force, and the city had paid Williams’s family $1.5 million. Yet Birk never faced criminal charges for killing Williams, since under Washington state law prosecutors would have had to prove evidence of “malice or bad faith” on his part when he pulled the trigger.

http://www.vice.com/read/we-need-to-stop-trusting-the-police

[bobGandolf]

1. I wholeheartedly agree with you!

BUT....we are a definite minority.

[freedom fighter jh]

12. Are you sure?

I think we may be a pretty quiet majority facing a vocal minority.

Yes, the OP says cops get a lot of trust from jurors. I'm wondering if that isn't because jurors find themselves in the middle of a system in which police are trusted. Jurors are the outsiders in the system, so they take their cues from those around them.

I'm guessing. When I was on a grand jury in New York City, everyone ganged up on me and yelled on me when I expressed doubt about a policeman's testimony. Seems my questions were delaying lunch. I guess my experience would support your point. But I thought maybe, just maybe, it was people succumbing to pressure (come on, our job is to vote to indict, not to ask questions) rather than simply believing the police.

[bobGandolf]

25. I'd much rather have it your way...

but I don't think that is the case.

[burfman]

40. Good for you freedom fighter....

Good for you freedom fighter jh, it's hard to go against the rest of the jury even when you have a good point. I admire you for sticking up for your principles when everyone else is just thinking of lunch. Another New Yorker the late 'Felix Unger' would agree that it's what we need more of. Seriously, you've got to speak up when you've got a point and not let it slide if you want things to get better.

Burfman

[freedom fighter jh]

42. Thanks so much, burfman

And welcome to DU.

[SamKnause]

2. Stop trusting cops you say ????

That ship sailed long ago for me.

My trust in our criminal and civil justice system is gone.

My trust in the "Supreme Court" is gone.

My trust in our militarized police is gone.

My trust in government officials is gone.

My trust in our economic system is gone.

My trust in our military "leaders" is gone.

My trust that 'Separation of Church and State' will be adhered to is gone.

My trust in our penal system is gone.

There is scant to no trust in anything our politicians say, or do.

My trust for the Tea Party, or Republicans is gone.

My trust for Democratic politicians that push for bipartisanship with the insane Tea Party and Republicans is gone.

There is little to be proud of, or trust about the current situation facing the US.

[Live and Learn]

6. +1 So true and so sad.

Of course, viewing history it appears our original trust was naive to begin with. I naively assumed we had learned from history but apparently nations don't. They simply revolt and replace one set of persecutors for another of persecutors. There doesn't seem to be any safety or justice in store for any of us anywhere.

[imthevicar]

8. I'm With Ya Brother!

[mdbl]

14. "My trust for the Tea Party, or Republicans is gone?"

Hmm, never had that one. What was it like?

[SamKnause]

15. Reply

I lost trust when the Tea Party invaded the Republican Party.

They are now the party of insanity, racism, lies, threats, pro corporate corruption, and religious fanatics.

They suffer from a mental disease.

They are a danger to this country and the world.

We can thank Fox "News" and right wing radio for the hate and stupidity that has enveloped the US.

[CANDO]

29. Hello?

The Tea Party has always been part of the Republican Party. All they did was create a name for themselves(the party base) in an attempt to win political control of that party and ultimately the country. They did so in response to having their asses handed to them in the 06 and 08 elections and also out of desperation and feeling helpless in the aftermath of the ACA passage. These were people who were stalwart Republicans through and through, religiously tuning in to right wing radio. They were not just your average folks out there one day deciding to become politically active.

[bemildred]

46. +1. nt

[hfojvt]

3. and juries too, eh?

Why just the other day I was trying to start my car on a cold day, and not having any luck.

When some pig from the Sherriff's office drives up and asks if I need help. I said, not really, I probably would just walk the six blocks to work.

So he drives off and just as I am about to start walking, the pig drives back up and says "I have jumper cables, think that will help?"

So then he tazes my battery with these 'jumper cable' thingies, and my poor, helpless battery had no choice but to start my car.

These pigs probably should not be trusted with jumper cables until they get more training, dammit. Otherwise no battery is safe.

And won't somebody please think of the children of the poor tow-truck drivers? How are they supposed to eat?

http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2014199894_guest14harrell.html

"We just witnessed weeks of proceedings of a public grand-jury inquest that reviewed the Williams shooting. All eight jurors concluded that they still did not know whether Williams tried to put the knife down after the officer's order; four believed the knife blade was open and four did not know; and four believed Williams did not pose an imminent threat of serious harm to Birk, yet three did not know. Clearly, had the officer recorded the incident with a body-worn video camera, the jury may have been better able to ascertain facts."

[imthevicar]

9. Last time

I saw a gentleman Police officer was 22 years ago and he retired a year later.
My Uncle told me and my cousin as a child NEVER to trust Cops as they Lie like hell. and how did he know this Cause he was a cop.

[randome]

10. So you never trusted your uncle?

Did that include when he said cops always lie?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[imthevicar]

11. You are a Troll! And Unworthy of a civil responce.

[randome]

18. Oh, you kidder, you!

Did your uncle tell you that?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[freedom fighter jh]

13. I heard a defense lawyer say the cops call it "testilying."

[Hassin Bin Sober]

31. I used to work with a guy who was a part time "Tackleberry" type cop.

He never had on him less than 2 or 3 guns and one knife.

He couldn't understand how I could live in the city of Chicago and not be armed all the time.

Anyway, he used to waive his pen and say "I have the power of the pen. Whatever I write in the report is true!". He was a cop in the suburbs of Chicago.

I used to read the Chicago local cop blog Second City Cop. One of the cops posted a story about the District Attorney teaching a class to cadets in the academy about Probable Cause. After the DA concluded the class and left the room, the instructor stepped up to the podium and said "The only probable cause you need is that pen in your shirt pocket."

It's a recurring theme. Too recurring to be mere coincidence.

I used to respect Dershowitz. Before he turned in to a RW D-bag (or maybe he always was one and I didn't know it). He wrote a book about testilying and how pervasive it is. According to him, IIRC, it's the most practiced crime we have today.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. I guess you missed the YouTube video of the cop playing catch

With the lonely kid the other day.

[oldhippie]

21. Yeah, that makes it all better

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. You did read the post I was replying to right?

Context is everything.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

30. Around here if you asked a cop for a jump they would tell you to fuck off.

The last time I called the police I had to argue with the dispatcher to send a car because the woman who rear ended me told me she didn't have any insurance and she was in a hurry so she wasn't sticking around.

When the car finally showed up I was met with a screaming red-faced maniac cop yelling at me and the other driver.

Fortunately for me, the other driver proceeded to mouth off to the cop and his ire was subsequently directed to her.

[hfojvt]

32. I didn't ask for it

I wouldn't think that was his job.

Seeing as how we have city police, I'm not even sure the County guy was in his jurisdiction.

Some of the variation in quality may be a function of staffing. In small towns, there are more cops than crime. Plus they are more likely to know most of the people.

What you describe sounds like a big city police department. Perhaps understaffed, and with employees who are stressed out from dealing not only with violence but also over-work.

My guy sorta had nothing to do, and so why not help some stranded motorist?

[Egalitarian Thug]

4. When did we start? They taught a very young long-haired-hippie-kid the folly of that idea

before he even got to Junior High.

They come in two flavors, fucking violent assholes, and fucking lying assholes. OK, three if you count the fucking violent, lying assholes as a hybrid.

[FrodosPet]

28. Never call the cops

Fuck Tha Police!

[Iggo]

5. I quit sometime between '75 and '79.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. Who's "we"?

[RiffRandell]

16. I stopped a looonnng time ago. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

19. I was raised to have a healthy distrust of police and all others in 'power'

So you can start now, but that's how my folks raised me. Both sides of the family come from history of reason to distrust authority, particularly petty law enforcement officers. More Americans are like me than you seem to think.

[hobbit709]

20. I figured that out about 1965.

[Rex]

22. Cops only job is to get you to say something incriminating.

No thanks.

[tavalon]

24. I wasn't old enough to call them pigs, but I don't, nor have I ever even considered

trusting cops. It just never occurred to me. Not in my DNA, I guess.

[spin]

26. We now live in a police state. In a police state the government and the police can run ...

roughshod over the rights of citizens without fear.

In passing, don't expect to see the NSA data gathering activities curtailed. Any limitations will prove ineffective as they will not be enforced.

[1000words]

27. My trust in law enforcement ended long ago

They are NOT your friends. Never, ever talk to the police. Ever.

[frogmarch]

33. Generally speaking, our local LE

officers are inept bullies, but one officer knocked on my door a while back and said someone had called the station to report a cat running around with a plastic bag over its head, and the officer asked me if he could look on my property for the cat. I said, "Of course!" and together we found the poor kitty crouched in the meadow behind my house. She was okay once the bag was removed, and he adopted her.

Some cops are decent people. They're not all asshats.

[Boom Sound 416]

34. The whole million

[NCTraveler]

35. If I were to become vocal about it I would be labeled a fascist defender here....

when it comes to cops. The fact is, I fully agree with you about not trusting them. The only time I want to see one is when I call one or am in harms way. I would never simply trust someone given that kind of authority, with a gun, nightstick, pepper spray, handcuffs, tazers, ect. I can honestly say that all of my friends feel the same way about trusting them. I don't know anyone who simply "trusts" cops.

[1000words]

36. How could anyone call you a "fascist defender"...

with an avatar like that?

[NCTraveler]

37. I laughed. I can take one to the chin.

Thinking about changing my avatar. Once every couple of days someone mentions it when it isn't even related. You on the other hand worked it in well with excellent comedic flair.

[1000words]

38. It was in good fun ...

Glad you saw it that way.

[MrMickeysMom]

39. Trust but verify the police...

I won't be popular by saying that. That's because of my particular concept of our local police. I know both the "motherfucking asshole" and "wonderful" inside ONE force. They have had different bosses (chiefs), and depending on who's at the top, you can either write them all off, or see that "trust" is a term that both Joe-Bag-A-Donuts and other officers have to deal with.

The bad make the good awful…. That's the flavor of this thread, Mr. Scorpio, but it isn't the flavor of the police we have out there, and the police we need more of.

And, that's the truth, Ruth.

[Pathwalker]

49. We have cops like that in the small town where I live.

One was a VERY decent man, who when delivering a summons from the township, advised us exactly how to fight it, and win. He wasn't happy about delivering it, as he knew and understood our circumstances at the time and advised us how to stop their bullying. Sadly, he was killed when he was hit by a drunken truck driver while helping a stranded motorist during a snowstorm.
Another was a racist cop who was very angry when I intervened when I witnessed him harassing an elderly African-American lady. He began following me around town, til one day he started following when my husband was driving. Husband pulled over, and asked what was the problem. He said that I was the problem, and that my husband needed to control me before I "got what was coming to me." We went home,and my husband called his friend - the Police Chief. Cop was fired that day.

Painting a group of people to be ALL alike, ALL the same...isn't that called bigotry, or prejudice? They're just like everyone else,IMO: some good, some bad, some downright mediocre. Trust, but verify.

[MrMickeysMom]

50. You said it best, Pathwalker...

They are people, and if everyone understood how many "bad eggs" there are in every work force that make the good ones look bad, you have a pretty good model of the perception of some posters here on these kinds of threads.

[MicaelS]

41. So you don't trust the police.

And you don't like the idea of civilians having guns. So just what are people supposed to do when someone starts committing criminals acts?

Contrast your OP with this: Oh boy! I just called the cops on my neighbors.

And this was my post:

I notice the resident Cop Haters are curiously silent, and absent.

[MrScorpio]

43. I don't hate the police

I just don't trust them. I don't think that that not trusting them and hating them equates to the same thing. At least, not in my case.

As a matter of fact, I've written a long essay on that very point a few years back.

I can even show it to you, if you want.

[MicaelS]

47. Show it to me, I'd love to read it.

I disagree with your profoundly on some points, but I always value your posts, and I like reading them.

[MrScorpio]

48. Here you go

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MrScorpio/72

[closeupready]

44. "Always Question Authority" is what I say.

K&R

[Ron Green]

45. We need to build communities where the police are

trustworthy. It's got to start with local economic activity, replacing corporate-extracted wealth with community partnerships.

[stevil]

51. What would it be like if no one trusted the cops?

Is that what you are actually suggesting?