Here’s Why You’ll Be Paying Your Student Loans Forever

[xchrom]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/doree/heres-why-youll-be-paying-your-student-loans-forever



n the Sundance documentary Ivory Tower, Andrew Rossi (who previously directed the New York Times doc Page One) explores how the cost of college is changing the lives of an entire generation — for the worse. College costs have risen by 1120% since 1978, far outpacing the rise in the cost of food or health care. Once seen as the necessary price of admission to the professional class, college has become, for some young people, a hugely expensive albatross that even death cannot rid them of: private student loan debt is passed on to survivors.

“That is practically a Dickensian construct in 21st century America,” Rossi said in an interview on Tuesday in Park City, Utah.



Unlike most other debts — including foreclosures and credit card debt — student loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. “I think that President Obama understands that the higher education system needs a very full overhaul,” Rossi said. One of Rossi’s interview subjects is a young New York City women who has over $140,000 in student loan debt from her undergraduate and master’s degrees in geography; in the film, she can’t even get a job at Starbucks.

So should less practical majors be restricted only to the rich?

“If tuition rates weren’t so high, and you could study English, or art, or philosophy, then you would be able to have a job afterwards that would pay off a modest amount of student debt,” said Rossi. In the absence of lower tuition, though, Rossi said that students need to be more realistic about their future earnings potential. “Any discipline of study should be valid, so long as the realistic earnings that one can have from that career will pay off the debt one is incurring.”

[madville]

1. $140,000 for a degree in Geography?

Stuff like that should never be allowed to happen. With that degree the most likely job prospect would be as a middle or high school geography teacher, probably starting at around $40k a year in most places. Doesn't seem like a good return on the investment.

I have some technical certificates/licenses and an Associates in Electronics from a public college, in all around $10,000 of education at the time. The last 10 years I've averaged around $60k a year.

That's why I'm encouraging my son to go to technical/trade school after high school to get started and then maybe look at college a little further down the line after he has some experience and has worked awhile. Electrician, plumber, HVAC, electronics, industrial maintenance, etc are still decent entry-level career fields to get into around here.

[A Little Weird]

6. I have a degree in geography

and work as a GIS analyst for an environmental agency.

It certainly didn't cost that much for my degree, but that's been about 10 years ago so things have clearly gone up a lot since then.

BLS lists a median income of $74,760 for geographers. Although I don't make anywhere close to that in state government, it can be a well-paying job in the private sector. Geographers actually do a lot more than teach - here's some info - http://www.bls.gov/ooh/life-physical-and-social-science/geographers.htm#tab-1

[madville]

32. Not putting down the profession or degree in anyway

I just don't see how the earning potential could possibly justify $140,000 in student loan debt since that's the example the article used.

[blackspade]

62. Unfortunately, without a teaching degree....

or the willingness to get one while working, you won't be teaching kids.

[DemocraticWing]

95. Geography is a fairly lucrative field nowadays.

I actually don't know anybody who uses a geography degree to teach.

[madville]

98. Racking up $100,000+ in student loan debt

Should be a good idea then

[DemocraticWing]

100. Obviously not.

The good idea is to avoid going to expensive schools. An even better one would be for our government to fund tuition for every able student instead of giving them loans.

[Enthusiast]

104. We don't have maps. Such as.

[TransitJohn]

108. All geographers I know work for environmental engineering and petroleum firms.

Teachers usually take education degrees.

[abelenkpe]

2. Tuition has been going up while salaries and benefits are being forced

Down and jobs offshored. And scholarship money has not kept pace forcing more high achievers into loans instead of providing them with enough funds to afford college. Not a good mix. The solution shouldn't be that we discourage higher learning or certain degrees. That's a recipe for a dumbed down society. Which benefits no one.

[Fumesucker]

4. A dumbed down society benefits the powers that be

Intelligent, educated people are a threat to that status quo because they are more difficult to successfully propagandize.

[LiberalEsto]

5. They can fail to educate, but they can't make people stupid

(except through massive doses of Faux "News", etc. and chemicals in our food and water)

Back in my college days in the late 60s-early 70s, we started a Free University at Rutgers, with all classes open to the surrounding community. This was part of our anti-Vietnam War outreach. Irish history, balalaika lessons, anyone who has something to teach could teach, if someone wanted to learn.

Maybe this is a concept that should be tried again around the U.S.

[Fumesucker]

7. It ain't what we don't know that hurts us so much

It's what we know that isn't so that causes the real damage.

It may not be possible to make people stupid but they can damn sure be programmed to act in a manner indistinguishable from actual stupidity.

[LongTomH]

19. Like the global warming deniers I talk to......

They're programmed to give you a Gish Gallop of denier talking points.

[LiberalEsto]

48. Thank you for the term and the link

Learned something new today.
Obviously someone is training the teabaggers.

[JCMach1]

26. only 31% of University faculty are full-tme in America... the rest are underpaid PT adjunct and grad

students...


You could even say most graduate programs now are just 'free labor' programs for Universities...

So, where are all those tuition dollars going???

[abelenkpe]

37. Good question.

Administrators? Totally know what you mean about adjunct teachers being underpaid. It's obscene. It is impossible to get tenure or even a living wage at most colleges since it's difficult to find enough work. The professors who retire are replaced with underpaid teachers who increasingly are forced give up the idea of making a career out of teaching after a few semesters. Or else they find a second job.

[enlightenment]

83. Administration.

Why does a community college need 15 senior and associate vice-presidents/"executive directors" ?

[Adrahil]

110. That kind of thing is happening all over....

.... at my wife's University, the full time faculty has been more or less stable for 15 years. Administrative positions has increased 500%.

[joeglow3]

85. Unnecessary technology and insane amenities

Read an article a few years ago about how much colleges spend on constantly upgrading technology way before it is obsolete and how much money they are pissing away on student living (pools, spas, hot tubs, etc.) to try and attract more students.

[a la izquierda]

102. They're not going to faculty.

Most professors are NOT well paid (relatively speaking, of course).

Look at ballooning administrations.mtheres your answer.

[drmeow]

97. Not salaries and benefits

to college administrators - College president's salaries and benefits have kept pace with the rise in tuition costs. Coincidence? You decide. (I've been working in academia for 13 years and got my first raise in 5 years this past year - I was lucky, I got a full 4%, the maximum my boss could get for me and she had to game the system to do it.)

[marmar]

3. k/r. I'm soooo glad to be done with college and its expenses.

nt

[MissB]

8. Yep. Dh and I are fortunate

Between what we've been able to put in 529 plans and what we can pull out of our salaries, we can afford to pay for college costs for our two kids (currently in high school). But we are offering to pay for in state universities, public only. We will give equivalent amounts if they decide to go with a private u, but the caveat is that they can't take on debt.

We had two kids a bit more than a year apart, which means that three of the five years that we will be paying tuition - we will be paying it times two.

For parents out there that have kids in elementary school, if your kids are motivated and eager to learn and stay that way through middle school, consider the following: the PSAT should be attempted for the first time when your kids are sophomores. They take it for real as juniors, and it can mean some decent merit money if they can hit the cutoff score for your state. The sophomore test doesn't count, but it will reveal where your child may need to concentrate some efforts, and then you have a year to help them beef up that area. Studying for the PSAT is the same as studying for the SAT, so it's a two-fer. Many colleges give some merit money for hitting that national merit scholarship finalist level and a certain a score on the SAT.

AP tests can be taken even if your kid isn't taking the AP class. Mostly it's state universities that offer course credit for AP test scores. Around here, AP tests run $89. Some of them will give your kid a lot of credit for that $89. For example, our state university will give 15 credits of chemistry (great for a STEM student!) for a 4 or a 5 (on a scale of 1-5) on the AP chem exam. So for $89, your kid can complete nearly a term of credit. Some AP tests will only get you 3 credits (like a language test), and some will get you 8. There are plenty of self-study guides available at the library for the AP exams. They are given in May each year. Your kid could enter their freshman year with sophomore or junior standing (an advantage when registering for classes or when choosing a degree like engineering that is typically longer than a four year degree).

Dual enrollment may also be an option in your district. Policies vary amongst universities as to whether they will accept the credit or not (we back up as much as possible with AP credit). But again, state universities tend to be more generous than the privates.

[antigop]

9. Forget AP -- look at CLEP if the university offers CLEP credit. nt

[MissB]

10. Clep isn't as generous or extensive as AP

And it isn't as widely embraced in our state. Using the same Chemistry example, a score of 50 on the Clep will give you 6 credits of chemistry and it isn't the same chem credit required for a STEM degree. The $89 version is still a better deal.

[antigop]

12. depends on the state...CLEP is a MUCH better deal in my state. nt

[antigop]

14. dual credit is also a better deal than AP...if dual credit is available.

In our state, all you have to do is pass the dual credit class to get credit at state universities.

With AP, it depends upon ONE TEST on ONE DAY. You could be sick, your cat could have died...any number of things could impact your performance on the ONE DAY.

With dual credit, your grade is based upon your work for the ENTIRE SEMESTER, not just one day.

AP sucks, imo.

[MissB]

22. One size fits all isn't the way to go.

You seem to be in a state where Clep is used. My nephew graduated with a ton of Clep credit that didn't transfer well.

I threw out three possibilities for reducing costs. You threw out an additional one (that I left out because in our state it isn't used). Someone else in this thread pointed out community college.

The point of my post was to let parents know that they could/should look ahead and see if any of these strategies may work for their kid.

I see value in some of these because I'm looking ahead at the affordable state university (also dh's alma mater) that offers STEM degrees. Because we are looking at that university, I'm not seeing certain options as sure things. For example, dual enrollment is great for my oldest kid from the perspective of moving him forward in math. As a sophomore in high school, he is taking Differential Equations this term at a local private liberal arts college. I would not be able to get assurance from the state university that they will or won't accept the credit. Which is fine, because of course he hasn't applied to the state university yet. All we can do is save the syllabus and tests, get a copy of the transcript, and submit it to whatever college he ultimately goes to. They may or may not accept it, but it is still worth it for him to take the class.

One can take an AP test anytime they are ready to do so - oldest kid took the AP calc test last year and got his 5. He'll take the other AP calc test this year along with one or both of the AP physics C tests. If he screws one up, he can retake it as a junior or senior. It's $89 each time, but even if he had to take one twice, it's still cheaper than the equivalent state university cost for those credits.

Plenty of kids are also taking their first two years at a community college to save money. Parents can check for transfer agreements at state universities, but for STEM kids, community college may not be the way to go since those kids typically take specific early engineering classes their freshman and sophomore years that may not be available at their community college (which extends both cost and time spent to get a degree).

There are lots of strategies out there for kids - I just wanted to out a few out there.

[antigop]

25. FACT: only 41% of students got a 4 or 5 on AP Calculus AB in 2013

http://www.totalregistration.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=487%3A2013-ap-exam-score-distributions&catid=18%3Amisc

23.8% got a "5"
18% got a "4"
-----
41.8%

More than half of the students that took the test won't get credit, if a "4" or a "5" is required to get credit.

AP is ripoff. You can look at the scores for the other tests.

Students get sucked into thinking they will get credit and the reality is...more than half of them probably won't. The schools don't tell you that.

Which is why AP sucks, imo.

[MissB]

33. One size doesn't fit all.

41% of kids got a high enough score on the test to get 8 college credits. For those kids, it's a heck of a deal. Again, it's one of many strategies. I don't see it as the only one, but I don't view it as crap either.

Our high school doesn't offer AP classes. Their calculus class is good enough that the kids that take the class can score a 4 or a 5 with little effort.

As I mentioned, the same kid that took the AP calc AB test is taking at least one of the Physics C tests. The curve on those is ridiculous, mostly because they are calculus based. Kids can usually score around 50 out of 90 and get a 5. Again, the 8 credits for $89 (without taking an AP class) isn't worth it?

YMMV

[antigop]

34. no, it's not worth it for the more than half that won't get credit.

I am not going to allow someone to tout the advantages of something where, for MOST STUDENTS WHO TAKE THE EXAM, won't get credit.

That's the reality. MORE THAN HALF are wasting their money.

FACT: It's a ripoff for more than half the students who take it.

[MissB]

41. Not all kids learned the material enough.

They shouldn't have take the exam until they were ready. If you look at the curves for some of these exams, you'll see how generous they are. Most folks can access older exams - so the format of the exam (multiple choice and free response) isn't exactly a surprise.

Do you expect all kids to get As in tough classes? The tests have a curve. Some kids will fall below that curve, just as they do in classes - both high school and college. I've heard that some high schools that offer AP require their students to take the AP tests. Should we expect that all kids that take AP classes are from Lake Wobegon?

I'm suggesting that parents take a look at the opportunities available for their kids. Some strategies will work for some kids, but regardless of the options taken, effort needs to happen. Some kids will put forth their best effort and not get a high enough score to get college credit. Some kids will opt for a private university that doesn't even accept AP (or CLEP, or dual enrollment) credit. Parents should just be aware that these options exist.

[antigop]

45. and parents should know what the reality is. nt

[antigop]

49. and I've seen too many parents pressure their kids to take all of these AP classes.

The kids are totally stressed out all the time and do not enjoy their high school years.

"Race to Nowhere"
http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/01/new-documentary-race-to-nowhere.html

[PasadenaTrudy]

73. That is a great film

Really made me grateful that I didn't have kids, and that I'm not a kid today!

[antigop]

74. people do not want to admit what we are doing to our kids. It's abuse... that's what it is. nt

[PasadenaTrudy]

87. I agree n/t

[FreeJoe]

69. Do the math

If you have a 41% chance that you can get a college credit for spending $89 and taking about 4 hours for a test, it works out to roughly $217 and 10 hours of effort on a risk weighted basis. That seems like an awfully good deal to me.

[antigop]

71. There may be other options available, as I have pointed out.

And over half the people who take the AP are throwing their money away.

[FreeJoe]

82. Over half...

You keep repeating the over half thing like it proves your point. If someone conducted a lottery that paid out $1,000,000 to each winner and everyone had a 1 in 100 chance to win for a $1 ticket, would you play? 99% of the people playing would lose. That still doesn't make it a bad gamble because the average payout would be $10,000 per ticket.

The AP test is similar in concept. Yes, over half of the people don't pass. But a substantial percentage do pass. Once you factor in the odds of passing (41%) and the low cost ($89), you can see that if a group of students took the test, the average cost for placing out of the course would be $217. That's still a great deal for a college course.

That's not to say that CLEP or other methods may not be better. But saying that AP is a ripoff, particularly if someone doesn't have a better alternative, seems wrong to me.

[TransitJohn]

109. They wouldn't be wasting their money if they passed the test. This isn't buying credits eom

n/t

[Proud Public Servant]

39. "Students get sucked into thinking they will get credit"?

Really? Are they just not paying attention? I went through AP courses 30+ years ago, and my daughter went through them more recently. Neither of us was ever under the illusion that taking an AP course led to free credits. It was always understood that taking AP courses challenged you with a more rigorous version of the material than a regular course, and that you could then take the AP test and if you scored well enough, you might get college credit at the discretion of your college. Any kid wandering around a high school knew that there were plenty of low AP scores handed out; your bitterly-complaining fellow students would confirm that.

[antigop]

42. How many high schools actually tell you the score distributions? nt

[Proud Public Servant]

50. I have no idea

But my teachers always did, and so did my daughter's (score distribution for our respective schools, anyway). I don't get why this is such a big deal -- it is, overtly an by name, a test, which implies it is possible to fail it as well as pass it. Nobody hides this (unless school officials are hiding it, in which case that's their bad faith, not AP's). Is the SAT also a ripoff because it's possible to take it and still not get into college? Are driver's exams a "ripoff" because they don't guarantee a driver's license?

[antigop]

51. it's "such a big deal" because

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4377694

and most students who take the test probably won't get credit anyway.

It's a form of abuse.

We are burning out our kids in high school. By the time they get to college, they're already burned out.

[Proud Public Servant]

60. Actually, the credit's only one benefit

Most college admissions officers will tell you that they favor students who take AP classes over those who don't, because students who take AP classes are showing a willingness to challenge themselves to a greater degree than their peers.

Yes, kids probably are more stressed out in high school than they used to be. But for that, you can blame heightened competition for college admission, an economy that no longer has decent-paying jobs for high school grads, and an overall culture of excessive parental involvement. Blaming AP courses seems a curious leap to make.

[antigop]

61. there may be options other than AP as I have pointed out -- considerably less stressful that

will still look good on a transcript.

"Race to Nowhere" documentary.

You don't necessarily need AP credits to get into college. There are lots of colleges out there willing to take your money.

And you are assuming that AP classes are more "challenging". No, as the documentary highlights...a lot of these classes are just more work and the students don't retain the info because it's such a firehose.

[Proud Public Servant]

67. We're not really in disagreement

But the onus is on parents and schools. Schools need to be creating meaningful AP classes taught by competent teachers, and parents need to understand whether AP courses are right for their kids. But there's nothing wrong with AP per se, nor is there anything wrong with only 41% of test takers getting 4s and 5s.

[antigop]

68. do only 41% of drivers pass the driving test?

In what universe is a pass rate of 41% considered OK?

GEEZ!

FWIW... in my experience I have found the parents defending AP the most are the ones who pushed their kids too far.

eta: but they want to brag that their kid is taking xxxx number of AP classes. And their kids are depressed, stressed out, and burned out.

[Proud Public Servant]

76. So remember, kids:

Don't ever attempt anything where you have less than a 50% chance of succeeding!

Yep, there's some great parenting advice.

[antigop]

78. nope.. you are missing the point. nt

[exboyfil]

63. Where APs enter in is being a gold

standard for admission to more exclusive schools. Early on I decided that AP would not work out well for my older daughter. I paid for her to take Chemistry I at our local university and to take Calculus I online. I have also paid for several other social studies/humanities type of classes. A full year of Chemistry would have yielded only one semester credit, and you had to get a 5 on the test for it to count towards an engineering degree. It was better to pay the $1K to take Chemistry I. To do AP Calculus at the High School my daughter would have had to take two years of math to get credit for one semester of Calculus (Precalculus and AP Calculus). She took Calculus I after her high school sophomore year online and avoided all that extra pain. The AP English Composition did not grant credit towards graduation at either engineering university in our state (it was useless). The AP Biology is not recognized for engineering at either university. You get Biology credit at our third university, but, if you major in Biology/Biochemistry as my younger daughter will, it is expected that you take at least one of the two freshman biology classes (this is not written down anywhere which is frustrating).

The thing about taking the class is that you have sure credit for it especially in the case of standing articulation agreements between community colleges and universities. My younger daughter is currently facing the question of what to do about science next year. She is in Honors Chemistry this year as a sophomore. She plans to take Chem I over the summer like her older sister and start her Chemistry sequence (Chem I/II, Org I/II, Org Lab) while in High School. Biology is a tougher nut to crack with entry into the college freshman biology classes limited (she is self studying AP Biology this year). What she does with it we are not certain. She may not be able to access the freshman biology classes next year even with a good AP score. If she takes AP Biology next year, then she will face the same problem as a senior and lose another year in the process.

[antigop]

65. Thank you, exboyfil....you did your homework.

I have seen kids get a "5" on some AP exams for which they got no credit.

"The thing about taking the class is that you have sure credit for it especially in the case of standing articulation agreements between community colleges and universities."

BINGO. That's what I was saying. You pass the class, you get the credit. Forget AP.

[exboyfil]

54. I asked for the statistics and did not get them from my daughter's HS

They said they were not available. Since school performance is the basis for AP awards, and they are concerned that home schoolers not take the tests to screw up their numbers, I would say they are lying to me. That is why I have chosen to pay for community college classes instead of going the AP route. For my older daughter studying engineering it has been great. For my younger daughter wanting to be a doctor, I have to proceed carefully (making sure I still have plenty of university classes on the transcript as well).

Check out if PSEO is an option in your state. In Iowa the school district will pay for courses they do not offer.

[antigop]

58. "they are not available"?? I doubt that. Maybe they don't want to tell the parents the truth.

And the truth is....most of the kids won't get a high enough score to get credit.

[FreeJoe]

72. $500/month

Whenever a coworker in my department is about to have their first child, I take them out to lunch and give them a quick course on saving for college. Most start off the conversation expecting to give their kids a full ride through either a top teir state university ($20,000 to $25,000 per year) or a more expensive private university. They always seemed stunned when I tell them that they will need to save something on the order of $500 per month per child from the day they are born until the day they graduate to make that happen.

It has gotten ridiculously expensive. I think part of the problem has been the focus on making it possible for people to pay for school through loans and grants rather than focusing on lowering the actual cost of providing an education.

[exboyfil]

86. The problem is not lowering the actual cost

because you can't get much lower than how we treat adjuncts. The major problem, for state schools at least, is that the funding when indexed to inflation or state revenues has continued to go down. For example in our state our tax code has remained reasonably stable for many years (which it really should). We have a pretty high top tax rate at 9% which happens on income over $66K. Effectively the increased K12 spending has come out of the funding for the state universities.

You are right about loans masking the buying decision (I am not sure grants have changed things much except representing less of the overall cost than they used to). It is unethical how financial aid packages are presented to students (for example grouping the loans with the money that does not need to be paid back). It should be in big red letters that this is borrowed money with the various payment schedules listed at the time of the loan.

I did a bad job planning for my children's education until about five years ago when I started putting into a 529 the full state tax deduction amount (amounts to immediately getting 9% more money - the best investment you can make). Our annual bonus makes this easier (the full amount plus some of the tax return goes into the 529). I have enough saved for four years tuition for each child to a public university. My oldest will probably not need any additional money because she will graduate in engineering in 2 1/2 years and probably also get internships along the way. The youngest will live at home and probably take 3 years.

Now I bet we could cut about 30% of the administrators at colleges and pay the adjuncts more. I am all in favor of that.

[MissB]

93. That's a nice thing for you to do.

It probably is quite shocking for them to find out how much 4 years at even a state university costs right now.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. So should less practical majors be restricted only to the rich?

Short answer; yes. For the same reason that less practical cars and jewelery are restricted only to the rich.

I wish people could make up their minds. Either college is a prudent investment in improved future earnings (In which case high school math provides all the tools necessary to evaluate the ROI on that investment) or it's a personally fulfilling quest for knowledge for its own sake, which makes it just another discretionary purchase.

I am becoming desensitized to people complaining how difficult it is to repay a debt related to a purchase that was sooo important for their personal growth that it was bad form and borderline rude to suggest that it should be justified with economics.

Especially when they tell me that autodidacticism has left me with poor critical thinking skills.

Community college is the best answer for most HS graduates.

[kcr]

15. I don't know

But I can tell you what I think about ones critical thinking skills and equating luxury cars to knowledge. Autdidactism or no.

[Proud Public Servant]

20. No, they should be restricted to the intelligent

We're not rich, and my daughter has a wildly impractical degree (History) from a very expensive college. Said great college is also well-known for its high quality, and my daughter graduated with honors and Phi Beta Kappa. She got a job immediately -- using the research skills she built pursuing her degree -- got promoted within a year, and is now (at 23) making more money than the average American (I was in my 30s before I was making her salary; my wife was in her 40s before she did).

There needs to be more federal aid for students of merit, and we need those students puruing so-called useless degrees (unless you think critical thought and communication skills don't matter to our society). But what we really need is fewer colleges overall, and more alternatives to college (as you rightly point out).

[davidthegnome]

21. Some of us have few options, Jeff.

I started officially working at 17 - and my first job was as a dishwasher for a Chinese food place. Minimum wage was 5.65 an hour or so (this was 12 years ago, in Maine) and the working conditions were not good, to say the least. I've washes dishes, done telemarketing work, taken care of yards, worked for farmers and for carpenters... but I can tell you that the jobs are uncertain, in a right to work state that is struggling with economic depression. They don't pay enough for someone with a family to survive, they don't even really pay enough for a single person to survive without some kind of assistance.

Life is too expensive. My family spent years trying to encourage me to go to school, and finally, last year, I did it. I've mentioned in other posts how well that worked out - debt up to my eyeballs, back home with mom and dad, blah blah bah.

What it comes down to is that there really aren't practical alternatives for most of us. Even community college is not cheap. I've always enjoyed working with my hands, but there aren't any apprenticeship programs anymore. A college degree, a professional career, beyond that, I don't know that there are many options for living a better life. Even then, I know people with masters degrees making barely above minimum wage.

Less practical majors... well, my own was English, with the thought that I would one day teach - but with the current political situation, I'm not sure how practical that is. Should less practical majors be restricted to the rich? I don't think so - I think what needs to happen is that school needs to become affordable for everyone. There has to be a better way than student loans.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. My local community college offers AA programs in auto mechanics, diesel mechanics and construction.

Among others.

All of them require a healthy dose of academic classes, for which a year of college should suffice.

In 12 months, you could be a welder. Tuition at my school is $1333 for 15 credit hours, and their student aid office is excellent.

My son had all of his tuition, diesel mechanics books and tools paid for by FAFSA (and a grant from a nearby charitable foundation) with a significant surplus for transportation. His cash investment in education was zero. With that certificate he hasn't had any problem getting steady and decent-paying employment.

... Employment that he could use to finance *sniff* proper education.

[exboyfil]

88. Our tuition for 15 credit hours

is about $2300. The books average about $100/class (usually can get about half back when you sell them back). A semester of tuition at our state universities is about $3900-$5000/semester depending on the major (engineering has a higher tuition and a higher technology fee).

[JCMach1]

27. Poppycock... how about get Universities to view graduate programs as

GRADUATE programs and not a source of free labor.

That 'free labor' notion has created an overpopulation of graduates in specific majors that cannot support it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Is that system mysterious to anyone? Are people surprised that employment as "adjunct professor"...

... after subtracting student loan payments, is comparable to the income derived from delivering pizzas?

I think it's about time that students apply some of those "critical thinking skills" that they apparently hand out like free condoms in the student clinic, to a rational evaluation of the financial benefit derived from the very real economic investment they are making.

[JCMach1]

35. that's not how the graduate programs perpetuate themselves

demand for free instruction fuels demand for students...

If grad programs operated on a rational system of actual demand then the issues wouldn't be as profound.

There isn't always a 1-1, or average way to measure these things. For example, does America need more mediocre engineers when the MENA region and China create more than 2M per year?

I used to make 6 figures as a university administrator. My graduate degrees are in English...

Having been in that environment, I have been able to see that the biggest part of the problem is with how the universities manage their graduate programs. The corporate mindset trumps everything.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Part of that corporate mindset results in a heavy reliance on "nonresident" students

Generally, those here on a student visa, and not in a liberal arts or humanities program.

If those seats were available to residents, it would admittedly constrain college budgets but it would give more economically productive opportunities to US graduates.

[George II]

13. Not me....

[Stainless]

16. 64 Years Old - 90K in Student Loans

True Story. I have a friend who has accrued that much debt over the last 20 years. My friend will go to her grave making minimum payments while the principal continues to rise! The loan sharks who enabled and abetted her naïve stupidity are criminals who belong in prison.

[former9thward]

53. She should switch the loans to income based.

Depending on her income she may have to pay nothing. After 25 years the loans disappear.

[JEB]

17. School should be free for everyone

no matter what their interest, no matter what their age. What a nation of informed people we would be! Stronger than any military.

[pansypoo53219]

18. the new company store. or educational share cropping.

[liberalhistorian]

23. Private student loan debt, or any student loan debt,

can only be passed on to survivors if those survivors have co-signed for the loans. Period. It is simply illegal otherwise to make survivors who have not co-signed pay for the loans. That doesn't stop the fucking bloodsucking sharks from trying to guilt survivors into paying, of course, and they often take advantage of both the vulnerability of grief and the fact that many people don't realize that they aren't legally responsible unless they've co-signed. NEVER cosign for a student loan, EVER. You will NEVER get rid of it, period.

[Vashta Nerada]

29. I picked a graduate major where the top pay is ~$40,000/year

and I'm $110,000 in student loan debt.

I'll be paying my loans off forever as well.

[tammywammy]

31. Did you not research the average salary and expected tuition cost before attending?

Why would you take out that much in loans if the salary with the degree would never allow you to pay them off?

[JCMach1]

36. She might be a teacher, or a psychologist, or a social worker @ 40k

I would argue society needs such people...

How about a rational system to support that need?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

38. Nonsense.

Everyone can get an MBA and become a venture capitalist. Why would anyone choose to be a teacher when all you have to do is choose to make 250k a year?

[tammywammy]

46. I agree society needs people in those professions.

I also think it's stupid to take out any loans for anything knowing you never be able to pay it back.

[JCMach1]

92. Tuition is nowhere near rational at present... trust me, I am sending my eldest off to college next

year...

She would love to do drama, but knows what the career odds are there... Instead, she wants to do Geology, which is not a bad bet these days...

[tammywammy]

96. Geology wanting to get into oil & gas probably isn't bad.

I do understand tuition issues, I'm currently in graduate school. But I also work fulltime and get tuition reimbursement. Though I worked fulltime and went to school fulltime during undergrad.

[xocet]

99. You are in graduate school and you work fulltime? n/t

[tammywammy]

103. Yes. n/t

[Vashta Nerada]

40. I love what I'm doing.

If everyone were to pick out a major that they could only make money from, then what's the point of having the rest of the degrees?

Doing what I love is more important than doing something I'd hate the rest of my life but earns me mega $$$.

[tammywammy]

52. But why would you take out loans knowing you'd be saddled with that debt forever?

I'm not even arguing that people should only do things that make the big bucks. I think that there needs to be reform for the escalating tuition cost, but at the same time it's unfathomable to me to take out loans knowing I'd never be able to pay them back.

[kcr]

59. I, for one, am glad they do

Or we wouldn't have any teachers. Yes, we need the reforms. But are you really suggesting that until that day only the people who can afford it should be getting the education required for those jobs? And I wouldn't necessarily want only the affluent teaching our kids anyway. And to dismiss those that do as stupid is unfathomable to me.

[Vashta Nerada]

64. I need loans to go to school.

My income is next to nil.

[abelenkpe]

47. When I went to school professionals in my field were making

on average 70,000-1000,000 a year. Today all those jobs have been off shored. No amount of research could prepare a student for that. And again, salaries for US workers have been being forced down for years in order to compete with the cost of labor in a global marketplace. So even if her field looked promising as she started her degree in high school it could very well be that it wasn't so lucrative after graduating. But don't let that stop you from shaming someone in debt.

[exboyfil]

66. I don't want to be rude

but what entered into your decision process? I am sure you loved the subject. Where you deceived about the earning potential in the major.

Early on my older daughter crosed Vet medicine off because the payback was not there. Ditto for Broadcast Journalism. She decided on something that she is good at that pays well with an undergraduate degree (engineering).

My younger daughter is adopting a higher risk strategy - she is going for a BA in Biology/Biochemistry with a minor in Spanish. She wants to go to medical school. It turns out she only has to take a small number of extra science classes over what is required in medical school to get the two BAs versus majoring in Spanish or some other degree. It is high risk if she does not get in (a BA in these subjects is not very marketable) and it is high risk because she will have difficulty in servicing her student loan debt ($220K for four years in medical school with limited opportunities to work while pursuing it - more for a private medical school).

[Vashta Nerada]

70. I went into the program thinking that archaeology was going to be like what professors do.

Working at sites for many years, writing reports, and teaching students. However, 90% of the archaeology conducted in the US is nothing like that. The archaeology conducted complies with Section 106 of the National Register of Historic Places, which states that if an undertaking is going to affect historic or prehistoric places, such as buildings, structures, or even archaeological sites, then it's our job (the archaeologist's) to locate sites and let a firm know if those sites will be negatively impacted. We do this by doing archaeological surveys. Mainly we look for archaeological sites that can be nominated for the National Register of Historic Places under Criterion D, which talks about archaeological sites that have yielded, or may be likely to yield, information important in prehistory or history.

If I could go back and do it all over again, I would. I didn't do my homework before entering into the program.

[antigop]

89. the problem with engineering is that so many jobs are being outsourced.

There are lots of engineers who have lost their jobs to offshoring and by being replaced with an h1-b visaholder.

Engineering and IT as safe as people think.

Been there...done that...

[exboyfil]

90. I agree it is like most other jobs

What I tell my older daughter is that a mechanical engineering degree is a like a foundation on which to build your dreams. She will be under 21 when she graduates so she has lots of opportunities to obtain additional education, and lots of companies are still hiring engineers (very well attended recruiting fairs in Ames).

[antigop]

91. check out how many of those firms are hiring because they fired older engineers

and want to replace them with younger/cheaper ones.

[Laelth]

43. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[LongTomH]

44. Society needs people in professions that don't pay well

Most states require teachers to have advanced degrees while paying low salaries. Nurses are in a similar situation; although they usually aren't required to have advanced degrees.

We haven't mentioned science yet..... A lot of major discoveries are made by young scientists; frequently these are young, post-docs working in low paid positions in academia. With very high student loan debt, these young people will need to move directly into highly paid positions in industry; which frequently means the military-industrial complex.

[Jesus Malverde]

56. Fascinating that a debt that cannot be erased by bankruptcy is offered to our most vulnerable

and poorly financially educated. It's often a terrible investment but makes people who run companies like the university of phoenix very rich.

[Mosby]

57. Where does all this money go?

In Arizona the three state universities get more than a billion dollars per year from taxpayers, that's in addition to tuition.

Where does all this money go?

[PasadenaTrudy]

75. How common are full scholarships?

I know someone who is 37 and she says the only way she will go to univ. for her junior and senior years is with a full scholarship. She wants to study art/design and business econ. I know..don't ask me!

[exboyfil]

101. Rarer than hen's teeth

At least at public universities. Become a national merit finalists (and full ride is only at a few schools even after that). A 34+ ACT and even that is no guarantee. Most scholarship money is doled out in bits and pieces. My daughter is at $4K/yr right now between three different scholarships (hoping for more). She has a lower ACT (29) but has a great transcript (over 50 hours already completed towards her Mechanical Engineering degree including two sophomore and one freshman engineering courses from her target university (2 A-s and an A)).

[PasadenaTrudy]

107. That's what I thought..

My friend is Korean, been in US about 12 yrs. Still doesn't have the writing skills needed for a top university, imo. I'm thinking she is still naive, even at age 37

thank you for responding, since I don't have kids and have been out of school for decades, I'm learning what things are like for students in the 21st cen. Not good, I'm finding. Best of luck to your daughter

[Arugula Latte]

77. It should make us all feel better that the military-industrial complex has been very well funded

in these past few decades. So, we've got that going for us. Priorities, people!

[enlightenment]

79. This is how they kill off the arts, humanities, and social sciences.

This country will be a very sorry place without those voices.

[aikoaiko]

80. When students choose less expensive schools, debt will decrease.

Its not required to go to Sarah Lawrence, Bates, Hamilton, or even NYU.

[xchrom]

84. until it doesn't. nt

[JCMach1]

105. those 'less' expensive schools are also hella expensive these days...

one could still easily emerge with 20-50K debt from a State school...

[FiveGoodMen]

81. pe·on·age

noun

the use of laborers bound in servitude because of debt

[Demo_Chris]

94. Before you can decide how to lower costs you have to understand why they are high...

I do not know the answer.

[tammywammy]

106. A lot of it can be attributed to state's pulling funding.

10 years ago the state university I go to received 45% of it's operating cost from the state. Last year it was 17%.

[woo me with science]

111. Debt slaves. It's the corporate plan for running this farm of humans they own.