A conversation about the Confederate flag...

[loyalsister]

I was having a discussion with someone from the South who believes that the true meaning is not racist.
I said that a racist statement it is a legitimate interpretation if that is what the person brandishing it intends because there is a historical context to support that meaning.

So, I'm talking with a person who rejects that interpretation and has some affection for the symbol. What right do I have to make a claim to know the true meaning after having pointed out that there is more than one reasonable interpretation? I think it is most frequently used as a racist symbol. That, to me would seem like grounds to abandon it.

I was not able to convince her, and I felt like I should admit that never have had any other connection to it prevented me from fully understanding her POV. We did wind up having a pretty good mutually respectful conversation. It helps that she and I agree on most things. But, the conversation made me think that open mindedness goes beyond diversity and liberal ideas.
Thoughts?

[Scootaloo]

1. Which confederate flag?

The flag of the confederacy?

If so, then her sense of taste is certainly questionable, but hey, i have neighbors flying the Norwegian and Mexican flags, whatever I guess.

Is it one of the many varied confederate battle flags or standards? There were roughly eighty of these suckers, and hey, if an ancestor fought under one, why not, i guess?

But if we're talking about this thing;

Then we're looking at a postbellum flag invented as a calling card for the "good ol' days" of "the darkie" knowing their places. Reputedly invented by the original Klan, no less.

[loyalsister]

4. I wasn't aware that there were so many

She's from S. Carolina and the stars and bars appear on the state flag. So many people from the south have a sincere regional pride that has nothing to do with racism. I can respect that because I see how popular culture ridicules southerners.

[Scootaloo]

9. I'm from Alabama, and a big critic of "southern culture"

well, originally from Alabama, I escaped some years ago.

The problem is there are a LOT of people in the south who honestly can't tell their asses from their elbows when it comes to the history of the region. It's not necessarily their fault, but ignorance is institutionalized and frankly like most peopel anywhere, they just accept and move on.

Case in point I remember in 10th grade, doing an Alabama History course. The book was talking about Reconstruction, and made the point over and over again that Blacks were just not fit to govern. Oh, not because they were black, mind - the books were a little more evolved than that - but becuase, you know, "conditions." And of course it used that lovely cartoon from Harper's Weekly, "Colored Rule in a Reconstructed State" to illustrate the period:

It wasn't until years and years later when I started reading actual academic material on the subject that I discovered that that was a complete and total fabrication - that the blacks elected to office ran things at least as well as, and in some cases better than their white counterparts - and that they didn't dwindle out of office because of incompetence but because of Jim crow laws designed to force them from office.

The perception of eternal victimization is also deeply ingrained in the south. Same book tells all about the harsh oppression of "Carpetbaggers" (i.e., immigrants) and "Scalliwags" (i.e., people who voted republican and registered blacks to vote.) The portrayal of secession as a noble cause unfairly stomped to death by an oppressive north is rife, as evidenced in the frankly idiotic epithet, "the south will rise again!" There's a perception of slavery as "not that bad" - and of course the notion that it had nothing to do with the issue of the civil war.

Perhaps these mentalities were draining away for a time, and then boom, civil rights movement and suddenly the privileged whites are feeling victimized by the specter of equality, and the south-as-victim outlook took a new leap to prominence, aided by both the Dixiecrats and Nixon's Southern Strategy of telling southern whites that they were deeply aggrieved and oppressed and put upon and burdened.

The region is a mess. And it will remain a mess so log as this miasma of ignorance and false victimization persist. Unfortunately even the people who would be helpful in fixing it - southern democrats perhaps, like we have on DU - are so deeply invested in the culture of white victimization that any mention of the problem immediately causes ranks to be closed and a horrid bleating of "regional bigotry" to rise, rather than any examination of "Huh, our schoolbooks and popular culture really DO enforce this sort of nonsense, we should fix it!"

I can't blame the people per se - they were raised into it, same as i was, and i figure I'd still be hanging onto what i learned if it weren't for a huge interest in history which frankly few people anywhere seem to actually have. But honestly, southern culture is made fun of because southern culture is pretty fucking ridiculous.

[loyalsister]

15. Good points

I see some of it in Missouri, which is a weird southernish midwestern state. I hear the victim claims here as well. It was interesting that my friend frowned on Missourians brandishing the flag because in that case the intent is obviously racist.

[Scootaloo]

26. Well, as Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy...

I saw it all over the place in Oregon as well. haven't seen it here in Washington, but I haven't really been east of the Cascades, so.. .who knows what's out there in the Moonscape part of the state

[loyalsister]

42. "Missouri wasn't part of the confederacy"

Yes and no. Missouri was admitted as a slave state, but didn't secede. The sitting governor favored the south. When he didn't get his way he set up a government in exile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_secession

Meanwhile, there are Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S Grant elementary schools less than 5 miles apart in my city.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. And much of southern Missouri, at least, would have preferred to have joined the Confederacy

In fact, it took a Union victory at the Battle of Pea Ridge, Arkansas (fought in early March 1862, just a few miles south of the Missouri border) to "save Missouri for the Union".

http://www.nps.gov/peri/index.htm

[loyalsister]

110. True

KS was an ardent abolitionist state and conflict between the two persists even today. Although, having less competition between KU and MU may temper that.
Even today, southern Missouri (Bordering AR, KY, and OK) is indeed part of the south. There were representatives at both the US and Confederate congress. In a way, MO was one of the clearest manifestations of the Civil War.
A phone call from president Lincoln convinced a slave owning, confederate congressman (who significantly expanded MU) to vote for the 13th amendment.

[Foolacious]

143. A phone call from Abraham Lincoln?

To a confederate congressman?

Perhaps you meant a telegram?

[loyalsister]

148. Nope it was an email

lol It's so natural to refer to phone call as a mode of personal contact that I forgot the historical context. That relationship was interesting. Rollins first argued against the amendment and later in favor...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Rollins

[arcane1]

35. I first encountered that cartoon in James Loewen's excellent book "Lies My Teacher Told Me"

It was one of the biggest eye-openers of my adult life.

[Scootaloo]

39. That is indeed a damn interesting book

Loaned my copy to my mother. She hasn't returned it

It is indeed fascinating to learn about the cultural "gentleman's agreement" that just swept black people under the rug. Hell, I just recently learned about the African-American migrations from the south in the early and mid 20th century... Which is amazing to me because after further research, these migrations are probably the biggest population shift in US history since the "closing of the frontier" in 1893

[arcane1]

40. That sounds like a fascinating topic too!

Do you have any recommended reading?

[Scootaloo]

43. The Warmth of Other Suns, by Isabel Wilkerson n/t

[arcane1]

48. Thanks!!!

[KamaAina]

16. Actually, that thing was the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee

Klan founder Nathan Bedford Forrest hailed from there, which is probably why he adopted it.

[Scootaloo]

24. It's not

The battle flag of the Army of Tennessee was a 1:1 square - most battle flags were in fact simply because the compact size was far more practical. The famous "confederate flag" design is that of the '63-'65 naval jack, but the naval jack, by regulation (though not always by manufacture) used deeper shades - maroon and navy rather than crimson and azure used in the AoT battle flag.

Subtle distinctions but hey, when it comes to vexillography, the subtle distinctions do matter

At any rate, the principle is the same - it's a post-war symbol waved around by the Klan.

[KamaAina]

27. I pulled that off Wiki

the text says it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, but the caption under the pic says Army of Tennessee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg

English: The rectangular battle flag of the Army of Tennessee, United States.

[Scootaloo]

29. Wikipedia's a little schizophrenic on the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Tennessee

Understandable I suppose as this particular subject is one that's filled to the brim with bullshit from every angle, I'm certain

[yellowcanine]

108. It doesn't matter. Southern states officially displayed ONE symbol which everyone knew

represented the Confederacy (and later, Jim Crow) and all that went with it. Asking this question is actually a debating tactic by the neo-Confederates and they should not get away with it. This symbol was incorporated into official state flags (Mississippi, 1894) (Georgia 1956) or prominently displayed at state capitol buildings (South Carolina - 1962) (Alabama, 1963). In every case the display of Confederate flags was in conjunction with racial issues - in the case of Mississippi it was part of the Jim Crow "Separate but Equal" doctrine, and in Georgia, South Carolina, and Alabama it was a part of the rallying cry for massive resistance to school desegregation, voting rights, and other civil rights gains by African Americans. And in every case the symbol used was the same - the so called "Confederate Battle Flag," (AKA "Southern Cross," "Cross of St. Andrew&quot the exact same symbol which the "Southern Heritage" crowd uses on license plates, pickup trucks etc. AND the exact same flag used by the KKK and other white supremacists over the years. Make no mistake, it is a racist symbol, particularly for African Americans. You don't see young African Americans running around touting their "Southern Heritage" with the Cross of St. Andrew. http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html

We have freedom of speech in this country. If people want to display the Cross of St. Andrew or a swastika they may. But this should not apply to official venues whether paid for with public dollars (state capitol bldg.) or not (vanity official state license plates). And those displaying the Cross of St. Andrew should not be able to get away with "Southern Heritage" explanations. It is the flag of traitors and racists and should be called out as such.

[loyalsister]

115. I had no idea about the dates they were adopted

That is very useful information!

[yellowcanine]

117. No kidding. And revealing of the true reason for this symbol.

[loyalsister]

119. This person is from S. Carolina

long after that flag was adopted. This represents a perfect example of how propaganda is used to rope unsuspecting people into representing a belief system without even realizing it.
As I said in another post, it exemplifies the necessity for black history to be taught in public schools.

[B Calm]

2. True meaning is traitorous

[PeaceNikki]

19. This ^

[n2doc]

41. Yep. n/t

[Bandit]

3. The Flag of Southern Treason so they could keep people as slaves.

It instills hatred and that is exactly what they want it to do..

[loyalsister]

5. When you say "they" are you referring to the Klan

neo-nazis, etc. or the followers of Jefferson Davis?

[Bandit]

8. I am speaking of the Confederacy

That was the NUMBER ONE reason for succession and it became TREASON when they fired upon and attacked Fort Sumter, A US Garrison. After rereading your post I believe you were referring to the "they" in modern times and I believe that ANYONE that flies that Flag does so because they know it is hated by so many..

[loyalsister]

54. I can't defend anyone flying it

nt

[Hoyt]

6. It's a symbol of hatred, just like a swastika. Waste of time

discussing the subject with bigots/racist.

[hunter]

20. Yep.

Fuck'm.

Ought to be finding their pride in other things. There is no shortage of other things.

[Boom Sound 416]

7. Growing up in the south, I loved the stars and bars when I was a kid

It was purely regional pride and nothing more. We were kids and growing in the era of "dukes of hazard."

Later I learned a few things about the south. Later more I learned a few things about the north; the jist being freedom for the slaves had very little to do with emancipation and plenty to economics.

So, hell, fly away and put on some skynyrd while at it.

[JoePhilly]

10. My grandmother used to tell me that it was ok to use the word n****r for similar reasons.

After all, I was just a "kid" and she made a good point ... "Well, that's just a word, it doesn't really mean anything."

Personally, I like it when I see a confederate flag on display, its like an early warning device for identifying whack jobs ... helps me spot them long before I have to interact with them directly.

[Boom Sound 416]

13. Wow

Are you calling me a racist to ignorant to know it? Nah.

I understand your point. People used to also use the "rule of thumb" and yes referred to the n word as just a word and therefore harmless. No one ever really believed that; just a word and nothing more. At least not in my era.

Can't speak to your grandmothers era, but some things were accepted then aren't now. As it should be.

But I don't know if such a blanket prohibition is nothing more than a pile on. (Which as you may or not know is why slaves got freed anyway).

Certainly some things like a swastika, etc, the baby goes out with the bath water.

I guess why so many folks are so hesitant to toss the bars is for people just like you. Folk who see a flag or other symbol and immediately pass judgement.

Do you feel the same way about the Hell's Angels. Does the first thing that comes to mind is the equal treatment of women? Or just cool outlaw thoughts?

[RainDog]

56. I think Hell's Angels are pigs

would never associate with them, either.

And, yes, I will pass judgment every time I see someone with a confederate flag, and as a mighty white woman, I will tell them they are classless, clueless assholes.

I'm not interested in making such friends.

[Gravitycollapse]

90. As a rider, someone who's had a run in with Hell's Angels, they're scum.

They are the criminal underbelly of riding clubs. Most other clubs I know want nothing to do with them and their buddies like the Mongols. They're a bunch of immature assholes who think that riding a motorcycle means they own the road. They demonstrate zero respect for anyone but themselves. They legitimize their violence, criminality, racism and sexism by calling themselves outlaws. Which is bullshit. They aren't rebels without a cause. There's no nobility to their actions.

Now, there are plenty of clubs that still possess the outlaw monicker, who hate the police for good reason, while supporting their community and not getting into gun battles over drugs and firearms.

HA's are an embarrassment to the entire riding community.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

100. "Too ignorant". You missed an O.

[Boom Sound 416]

111. What? The infinitive didn't read?

[bravenak]

67. Me too.

If I as a black woman, descendant of slavery, see a stars and bars flag flying, I know what that means. I feel a little scared of people like that, knowing how they proudly fly their flag of racism and oppression in full view of the world, it hurts me deeply and offends me to no end. Then they just call it regional pride.

[Hoyt]

30. Where I grew up in the South, I learned early on what obvious hatred that flag symbolized.

The guy below claimed he was not a racist when he ran for public office about 10 times. He claimed that right up until they imprisoned him for bombing a church in Birmingham.

Truthfully, I can't see how anyone who grew up in the South did not know what the flag represents, and the type people who revere it.

And, to this day, I'll turn off radio/tv if Lynyrd Skynyrd comes on.

[Boom Sound 416]

33. That's fair

We had different experiences.

Shocker!

It doesn't automatically make me or anyone else a racist.

As to your example. The flag didn't prove him racist. The bombing did. Had he had a shot of Jack Daniels every night before bed would that make JD racist beverage. Or moonshine for that matter?

[RedstDem]

44. turn off skynyrd??

Skynyrd campaigned for jimmy carter, the last great president of the past 40 years.
Although what's left of that band are not worth a second of your time, they were a lot different then than they are now.

[Hoyt]

49. They still fly it, and pander to bigots even now for money. That's about as racist as one can be.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/lynyrd-skynyrd-confederate-flag_n_1909135.html


George Wallace endorsed Carter too.

[Art_from_Ark]

80. George Wallace had changed his stance about racial relations

He underwent his epiphany shortly after he was nearly assassinated during the '72 presidential campaign.

"A year after the assassination attempt, he stood strapped to a podium and addressed the Alabama legislature on local issues. The amazing and emotional event secured his political comeback. Further, Wallace renounced racism, claiming he only opposed a "central government meddling in local affairs." To symbolize the change, he returned to Tuscaloosa to crown the first black homecoming queen at the University of Alabama. He ran for re-election as governor in 1974 by opposing the federal bureaucracy and secured victory by distributing plenty of political favors, especially in black neighborhoods, which saw an increase in paved roads and other public services. A quarter of all black voters cast ballots for Wallace, who won 65 percent of the vote, the largest margin ever posted in a primary. "

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1676

So by the time Wallace endorsed Carter in 1976, he had significantly reversed his erstwhile racist views.

[Hoyt]

81. You can't be serious. He stood in the state university's doorway and told black kids they didn't

rate an education there. He did worse in private. He gets shot and repents. Bull. And LS are a band of bigots profiting from their hatred.

[Art_from_Ark]

82. Did you even read what I posted?

He was an avowed racist in the '60s, but after the assassination attempt he did an about face.
The George Wallace of the late '70s and later was not the George Wallace of the late '60s and earlier. And during the election for his final term as governor (1983-87), he won 90% of the black vote.

"In 1982, black voters helped reelect Wallace, giving him one-third of their votes in the first primary. He then increased this constituency to defeat then-Lieutenant Governor George McMillan by one percentage point in the Democratic runoff. In the general election, Wallace carried 90 percent of the state's black electorate, linking it with rural white voters and members of the Alabama Education Association to form a coalition that defeated his opponent, Republican Emory Folmar, mayor of Montgomery. "

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1676

[Hoyt]

84. Old men about to die say all kinds of conciliatory lies. Besides, I've heard that from

plenty of white/right wingers. It's bull. Wallace hurt tens of thousands of innocent kids. His apologies mean nothing, way too late. Sure Blacks felt sorry for Wallace, they were always carring about losers/sickos like him. Too bad he wasn't same when it mattered.

[Art_from_Ark]

85. And men who feel they are about to die

reflect back on their lives and sometimes realize that some of the things they did were wrong and want to make up for that before they die. In the '60s, Wallace was just like fellow Southern governors Lester Maddox, Orville Faubus, Ross Barnett, et al, but Wallace did change, just like Robert Byrd did, not just with words but with deeds as well.

[loyalsister]

113. Shirley Chisholm visited him in the hospital

They actually had a lot in common.

"But a strange tug of populism, a loyalty to race and class, a recognition of a fellow fighter, formed in Shirley Chisholm an emotional bond with George Wallace. It must be the most human story to come out of that undistinguished campaign."

One thing she and Wallace had in common was that the other candidates did not take them seriously....


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1913&dat=19730517&id=rZ8gAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pmgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2964,2604354

[Art_from_Ark]

161. I remember hearing about the Shirley Chisholm for President campaign

And yes, people looked at her campaign they same way they had looked at Pat Paulsen's campaign.

[sked14]

124. Tom Petty, who campaigned for President Obama,

uses the Confederate flag in his live song, Rebel, from the live album, Pack Up the Plantation, he's in no way a racist or a bigot.
Matter of fact, one of his back up singers is an AA and she seems to have no problem with it.

&list=PLIeRRviu1HMm03TXCnkVlCGJBG1tS0F_h

Excellent kick ass song by the way.

[Hoyt]

149. At least Petty had the good sense to abandon that racist flag since 1985.

[sked14]

151. Do you have any info on that?

Can't seem to find anything on when he quit using the flag as a backdrop.
I hope it's true.

[Hoyt]

152. Read up. One of the REM guys, called him on it. And his fans got upset.

I guess he did a little soul searching.

[sked14]

155. Good.

I did read that after the release of his Pack Up the Plantation album, he asked his fans to stop bringing the flag to his concerts, just didn't know if he quit using it himself.
Thanks for the info.

[Hoyt]

158. Some southerners just have to shown the way, and are receptive to it.

[progressoid]

153. I got the impression that was an examination of what it meant to be a "rebel".

Not so much a celebration of it.

Inside, a little hollow
I get faced with some things sometimes
That are so hard to swallow

[sked14]

157. Very possible.

[RainDog]

59. another southerner who hates Lynyrd Skynyrd

Neil Young makes them eat his dust.

[Hoyt]

60. +1000000. Young's Southern Man is one of my favorites.

[RainDog]

62. Truth be known...

growing up, I thought I had been misplaced. LOL. I felt alienated from southern culture, or a lot of it, from my earliest memories. I have no idea why, except that I felt, before I understood, what a stratified, ossified culture it was. snore.

[Hoyt]

65. I hear you. I just recently got into a facebook war with some right wingers from my youth.

They've called me every name known to sailors, and one of them wants to fight. He may make me mad enough before it's over, if he'll leave his guns at home.

Luckily, I live in a big city and there's a lot of good stuff going on here. I know who and where to avoid, and confederate flags are one of the tip offs.

Enjoyed the music. I forgot Young worked with Pearl Jam.

[RainDog]

66. when I was a senior in h.s.

I got to go to Europe as part of a student group. On the return flight, I wept when the pilot announced we were landing in the U.S. lol. true.

I grew up in a major southern city. I married a European.

[Arugula Latte]

73. People who fly the Confederate flags are either racist or don't care if they're associated w/ racism

You'd have to be pretty ignorant to not be aware of the associations with the Flag of Treason.

[Boom Sound 416]

92. Or 8 yrs old

[HERVEPA]

156. and still defending it when they are (presumably) no longer 8

[yellowcanine]

116. A kid's understanding is understandable. What is not understandable is what adults do with it....

Read my post and then tell me that this symbol is harmless expression of "regional pride." It is racist and yes, people in the North fly it as well as people in the South and for the same reason. But you don't see African Americans flying it as an expression of regional pride - North or South. I guess African Americans just don't have a well developed sense of regional pride, huh? Funny how that works.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4400562

[Boom Sound 416]

122. Great posts and great points

I appreciate the manner of your tone as well. (Getting to be a rarity here)

On African Americans flying the flag, you're absolutely right. You don't see it and a blind man could tell you why. However, I think that speaks to something else happening across our culture; the growing division between black and white people on the grounds of Americanism. A division of culture into two Americas and the stars and bars are decidedly white.

On southern heritage, I guess I must admit that is the silly pride I feel, but I guess there are two (or more) types or philosophies. Frankly those who are segregationists and those who are not. For those of us who are not, the heritage is not too dissimilar from American heritage in that's it's born from rebellion and under dog and collective individualism (if you'll permit that oxymoron). And for a person of my age the stars and bars illustrate those concepts. And again, those concepts are reflected in the Stars and Stripes.

Growing up in the south in a mid-size city, I won't tell you I did not witness segregation myself. I public high school was completely segregated and this was the early 90's, but not officially segregated by rule of law, but by the students themselves and the rules of society. A division that as to deeply cut for just some simple statutes and a few years time to correct.

I can't imagine anything in the stars and bars to help erode that division, so maybe I need to rethink my attachment to a symbol.

Or maybe, whatever way you believe, right or wrong to fly it that, as George Carlin said, "symbols are for the symbol minded." So maybe both sides are just a knee to deep in the thinking about symbols and not what's really adding to the division.

[yellowcanine]

136. I have no problem with pride in Southern Heritage if we are talking about Southern cuisine,

rural culture, country music and even stock car racing, college football and rednecks making moonshine. But it also includes New Orleans Jazz, Memphis Blues, African American preaching, etc. and somehow I suspect that the Confederate Battle Flag wavers are NOT celebrating that particular Southern Heritage.

[Shankapotomus]

11. Ask your friend how she feels about

cemeteries for confederate dead. Does she have any problem with it? If she says no, ask her if she has any problem with cemeteries honoring only African American soldiers from WW2.

I've encountered confederate flag wavers whose denial of racism falls apart under that test. They have no problem honoring soldiers who fought against the union but as soon as they are confronted with a cemetery honoring African American soldiers who fought FOR this country, they have issues.

[loyalsister]

12. Thanks

I'll try to keep hold of that one.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Well...

There was an old graveyard in the town I used to live in that went back to the 1840's. Part of it had a wrought-iron fence around it; that section was the Confederate cemetery, with the graves of Confederate soldiers who'd died in the Battle of Atlanta. About half of the gravestones had no names, just "Unknown".

My great-great-great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy. He enlisted in the Georgia state militia in 1864, when he was 46 and past military age, just before the Battle of Atlanta (he lived in Clayton County, right in the path of Sherman's march to the sea). I can't really blame him for that; in the same situation? I'd probably do the same thing myself. I think about that, and think about all those graves, some of whom died with their families never knowing what happened to them, and wonder how many had similar stories; just found themselves victims of circumstance forced into a situation where they took up arms to defend their homes against an invading army. And I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Southerners may have family stories about old men and boys going off to fight and not coming back.

Was the Confederacy wrong? Unquestionably. But it's quite possible to see why some people may see the Confederate flag as a symbol of heritage with other meanings than explicit racism.

[loyalsister]

28. It's tricky

"But it's quite possible to see why some people may see the Confederate flag as a symbol of heritage with other meanings than explicit racism."

My dad mounted on on his house and told me it was to honor ancestors who fought for the south. I called bullshit right away. So, I think heritage can be an excuse. I mentioned that words can have various interpretations and could even be considered neutral until the speaker assigns meaning. BUT, and we still avoid using profanity in certain company.

[Boom Sound 416]

17. I like the don't tread on me flag.

Doesn't mean I believe in isolationism or protectivism or believe you are a globalist who's for giving away jobs just because you fly the Stars and Stripes

[Hoyt]

37. Another flag that symbolizes racism, maybe not initially, but it has been usurped by racist tparty.

[loyalsister]

51. True

I have been seeing them side by side a lot lately.

[2ndAmForComputers]

76. That one too?

Color me surprised. Not.

[KamaAina]

18. How often do you see that thing around you?

(I happen to know that the OP is in the part of the Midwest that is close enough to the South that she might encounter it.)

[loyalsister]

23. Too much!

The conversation came up because I was complaining about a family member having stickers on his truck.

[baldguy]

21. "Heritage, Not Hate"?

I don't buy it.

[Boom Sound 416]

45. I'm not sure it works the same.

Germany did not seperate from itself. It re-birthed itself.

[baldguy]

53. But there are still people in Germany who revere the Nazi flag.

They're just not allowed to display it.

[GRACIEBIRD]

22. the US could always replicate German laws

regarding symbols and paraphernalia of an illegal organization.

[Hoyt]

31. I'd support that.

[sked14]

126. You'd support censorship?

[Hoyt]

127. More precisely, I would support levying fines on yahoos waving that symbol of hatred.

I don't like censorship, but I like racist/bigoted aholes even less.

[sked14]

129. How about those that espouse racists and bigoted views?

Would you want them fined also?

[Hoyt]

130. No, I'd support tattooing Racist AHole on their forehead.

[sked14]

132. Would you support forcibly tattooing that on their forehead?

Much like this?



Little extreme don't you think?

How about just countering hate/bigoted speech with counter speech? Isn't that the sensible way to go?

[Hoyt]

135. Nope not like that. But, the folks that did that . . . . . . deserve something special.

[sked14]

142. One is just as rehensible as the other.

The answer is to counter their hate with educating our next generation on getting along with each other without hate and bigotry, not fines and tattoos.

[GRACIEBIRD]

154. It's not censorship

Define Confederate cause as an illegal organization, as is Al qaeda. Membership in such organization is illegal as is displaying its symbold.

[sked14]

160. Ok, and what are the chances of that actually happening?

[bobclark86]

102. Nope...

For the same reason we can't ban flag burning.

[sked14]

125. No.

That would be going down a road that we, as a nation, don't want to go down.
1st Amendment and all.

[hrmjustin]

25. It is a flag of treason and evil.

[hollowdweller]

32. I see it a lot around here.

I used to see it more when I was a kid but always figured it meant "hellraiser" or was sort of a fashion statement more than anything racist. But the entire area I live in was white. NO black kids at any of my schools.

Then I worked with this black guy and we'd be out driving around, partying, and if we were driving out some rural area and he'd see a rebel flag he'd say "Johnny Reb. Let's get the hell out of here" I had also rescued him once and drove him back to his car after being attacked by a of racists from Sissonsville.

Anyway he gave me a whole new way to think about that flag. And I don't think anybody should have to feel that way when they see a flag.

Right now 2 houses with rebel flags. One some really nice country guys I know who go to church all the time. Not sure what's up with that. Then another right on Rt 60. They have a rebel flag up on a flagpole and then a little garden around the flag pole with a black jockey. So much for "Heritage vs Hatred"

The thing that gets me, is I live in WV and western VA was looked down on and shorted by the gov't of Virginia when we were a part of it. So being a WV'ian and sporting a rebel flag to me is unpatriotic to the state, because if the south had won we would have never been a state, and most WV'ians love their state.

I think most of the people who display it now are racists.

[RainDog]

34. It's the flag of traitors

I grew up in the south - and discussed this with someone else here a while back.

The confederate flag, to me, is like a Nazi flag. No matter what apologists say - it's a racist symbol that is part of the shame of this nation.

I would never associate with someone who defended the confederate flag because I find it so offensive.

So you can tell your friend you mentioned this and at least one person said she views the confederate flag like the swastika, and those who fly it are like neo-Nazis.

[RedstDem]

50. amen

Flag of traitors.

[Gothmog]

36. The Stars and Bars are a sign of racial hatred

I have seen this flag defended from time to time but not by anyone who I considered to be intelligent. This flag has one purpose in today's society which is to stoke racial hatred.

[DemocraticWing]

38. For some reason it's popular in areas of IL, IN, MI, OH, PA, and WV.

I doubt the "heritage" argument works for those people considering they don't live anywhere near the old Confederacy. I also see it here in Kentucky, also not part of the Confederacy except for some splitters in the west.

[1awake]

47. WV WAS the confederacy until it was "split". Just saying. :)

[DemocraticWing]

64. Even worse.

Their heritage is splitting from the Confederacy. No use for that traitor flag there.

[B Calm]

69. I know here in Indiana, it's only the dumb ass racists who fly it. Indiana was a Yankee state

during the civil war.

[Art_from_Ark]

88. Indiana might have been a Yankee state during the Civil War,

but it was also Ground Zero for the 1920s resurgence of the KKK.

[caraher]

94. There was a lot of strong sympathy for the Confederacy in many of those areas

Where I live now in Indiana I'm pretty sure "Copperheads" were dominant politically during the war.

[1awake]

46. Most of the people I knew who "waved" it

used it as a sign of defiance. Everything they hated about our society/government/job situations/etc... it was their way to make a stand and feel better. People rose up before, it could happen again (not). Their way of standing up I guess.

Judge it how you want, or don't. Attacks only reinforce their feelings, and in their minds, it is they who are now being persecuted. I am sure it is about race a lot, but I think blanket statements are as asinine as handling your regrets and bad feelings through a long dead cause.

[Aristus]

52. I've encountered that before, people who claim they're not racist, but like the symbolism of the

flag.

"I'm just kind of a rebel, I guess" is what they often say.

I've never offered this reply, but I swear, next time I hear that from a Confederate flag waver, I'm going to ask him/her: "Something wrong with the American flag? At least that was a successful rebellion".

Why a bunch of losers want to fly the flag of a bunch of losers, I'l never know.

And 'defenders of the South': spare me your indignation. I was born and raised in the South to an all-Southern family. I'm 2 generations removed from the Klan. Doesn't mean I have to embrace their bigotry or celebrate their treason.

[1awake]

57. Not that I disagree with anything you've said...

but be careful asking "Something wrong with the American flag?" ... there's just to many ways that can be answered these days.

[Aristus]

61. For me, it's more important that the question be asked than that it be answered.

If the subject is capable of higher cognitive function, it might spark something worth thinking about.

The American flag symbolizes our incredible diversity, including diversity of thought, creed, ideology, etc. It's perfectly acceptable to be a 'rebel', and still fly the American flag, or at least not fly the flag of a defunct, backward, feudal nation that captured Federal property and fired on Federal troops.

[RedstDem]

55. it seemed more like an anti government symbol growing up southern

Now its definetly a racist symbol, that took over completely.

[Warpy]

58. Outside the south, it's a reliable asshole indicator

Down south, it might not be. Things need to be decided on an individual basis.

However, outside the south I appreciate the warning.

[loyalsister]

63. Well said!

I can accept an alternate interpretation conceptually. BUT I can't see any reasonable justification to fly or brandish it.

[yellowcanine]

118. I would say mostly inside of the South also.

At least a 90% likelihood of assholishness.

[Bonhomme Richard]

68. It's the flag of traitors. Simple as that.

I happen to be reading U.S. Grants autobiography and it jumps out to me how he refers to the civil war as the rebellion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. The final flag flown by The South was white. Ask her if she understands what that means.

Surrender
Dressed in an immaculate uniform, Lee waited for Grant to arrive. Grant, whose headache had ended when he received Lee's note, arrived in a mud-spattered uniform—a government-issue flannel shirt with trousers tucked into muddy boots, no sidearms, and with only his tarnished shoulder straps showing his rank.[14] It was the first time the two men had seen each other face-to-face in almost two decades.[13] Suddenly overcome with sadness, Grant found it hard to get to the point of the meeting and instead the two generals briefly discussed their only previous encounter, during the Mexican-American War. Lee brought the attention back to the issue at hand, and Grant offered the same terms he had before:

In accordance with the substance of my letter to you of the 8th inst., I propose to receive the surrender of the Army of N. Va. on the following terms, to wit: Rolls of all the officers and men to be made in duplicate. One copy to be given to an officer designated by me, the other to be retained by such officer or officers as you may designate. The officers to give their individual paroles not to take up arms against the Government of the United States until properly exchanged, and each company or regimental commander sign a like parole for the men of their commands. The arms, artillery and public property to be parked and stacked, and turned over to the officer appointed by me to receive them. This will not embrace the side-arms of the officers, nor their private horses or baggage. This done, each officer and man will be allowed to return to their homes, not to be disturbed by United States authority so long as they observe their paroles and the laws in force where they may reside.[15]

The terms were as generous as Lee could hope for; his men would not be imprisoned or prosecuted for treason.[16] In addition to his terms, Grant also allowed the defeated men to take home their horses and mules to carry out the spring planting and provided Lee with a supply of food rations for his starving army; Lee said it would have a very happy effect among the men and do much toward reconciling the country.[17] The terms of the surrender were recorded in a document hand written by Grant's adjutant Ely Parker, a Native-American of the Seneca tribe, and completed around 4 p.m., April 9.[18] Lee, upon discovering Parker to be a Seneca remarked "It is good to have one real American here." Parker replied, "Sir, we are all Americans." As Lee left the house and rode away, Grant's men began cheering in celebration, but Grant ordered an immediate stop. "I at once sent word, however, to have it stopped," he said. "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall."[19] Custer and other Union officers purchased from McLean the furnishings of the room Lee and Grant met in as souvenirs, emptying it of furniture. Grant soon visited the Confederate army, then he and Lee sat on the McLean home's porch and met with visitors such as Longstreet and George Pickett before the two men left for their capitals.[20]:375

On April 10, Lee gave his farewell address to his army.[21] The same day a six-man commission gathered to discuss a formal ceremony of surrender, even though no Confederate officer wished to go through with such an event. Brig. Gen. Joshua L. Chamberlain was the Union officer selected to lead the ceremony, and later he reflected on what he witnessed on April 12, 1865, and wrote a moving tribute:

picture of the flag and more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_at_Appomattox

[on point]

71. I like the post that called it the Traitor flag. They betrayed the union

In order to have slaves

[Igel]

72. "They" are all dead.

And every generation has to construct meaning on its own.

It's how languages--which are just systems of signs--change.

Within a language words and phrases can develop divergent or competing definitions within social group.

Interestingly, when you get people from the different groups together the people from each group are quite insistent that they and only know the "true" meaning of a word and the other group has no claim to defining it. (Unless they've realized that words are just noise until somebody gives them meaning and intends for another person to understand that meaning.)

So I still use the subjunctive. "I think it essential that John be at the meeting" doesn't mean the same thing as "I think it essential that John is at the meeting." The first is for a meeting that's planned, and saying that his presence there is essential but possibly in doubt; in the second, my only understanding is that John is actually at the meeting. My students in my new state of residence have to paraphrase to get at the distinction and completely lack the subjunctive. The form "be" can only be substandard or AAVE, and a few students have tried to take offense, thinking I'm imitating them. They don't notice it when they have to read older literature. That we all speak the same language gives them license to believe that we all speak identically. It just ain't so.

That's what this is. Except people insist that their and only their interpretation of some shapes and colors is the One True Definition. I've seen people do the same with swastikas--and watched them blithely accept that ancient Vedic writings and Native American rock art were both produced by Nazis.

[on point]

91. I agree that language (signs too) meaning is produced by the population involved

That means those who express it, but also those who receive it, and of course there is often loss in the transmission between the two groups and other extra meanings not actually intended to be conveyed.

But the context of meaning includes history (if the parties know it, otherwise not of course).

So I like your post and agree with it in general, but don't know that it changes the meaning of this symbol.

It seems both in history, and current intention of meaning, that it still represents the traitor flag, or racism.

Is there another meaning you think people are trying to put forward??

[loyalsister]

98. Have you read "The Tyranny of Words?"

The author makes a similar case for understanding language. His claim is that "true meaning" can only be established or agreed upon if speakers are referring to an empirically defined object\experience.

Otherwise a word lacks meaning. It would seem that a symbol with a physical presence and historical reference should be easily agreed upon. Maybe, the fact that it can not be is a function of the maladaptation of American society when it comes to race.

[yellowcanine]

128. Well, it is the Cross of St. Andrew, or the flag of Scotland or even a multiplication symbol until

one adds the stars to it and uses a specific color scheme - and then it becomes something else, doesn't it?
And an omelette is just broken eggs.

What you are doing here is quibbling. See my other posts - the Confederate Battle Flag is the one symbol which has consistently been associated with Jim Crow segregation and racism since the 1890s and up to the 1960s Civil Rights struggles and forward to white supremacist groups today. States adopted this symbol as a way to officially bless massive resistance to school desegregation and efforts to end Jim Crow laws. People can fool themselves and "reinterpret" it any way they want but that fact doesn't change. This is a good example of rationalization and in many cases "aggressive ignorance" - people choose not to know or find out the origins of this symbol. To paraphrase, "ignorance of the racist origins of the Confederate Battle Flag is no excuse." You can redefine or reinterpret or choose not to know all kinds of offensive things - that doesn't make them any less offensive to the group being offended. By your reasoning it is okay to for the Washington NFL team to be called the "Redskins" because this term has taken on a new meaning in today's society. Yes, it certainly has taken on a new meaning but no it still isn't okay even if there are Native Americans who say they are not offended - it was used as a derogatory term against a whole group of people so that makes it not okay now, even if Mr. Dan Snyder chooses to keep his head in the sand about it. And even more so with a symbol like the Confederate Battle Flag, which is still used as a racist symbol by too many people and many African Americans find very offensive and for good reason.

Cross of St. Andrew - Flag of Scotland Cross of St. Andrew - Confederate Battle Flag

[Hassin Bin Sober]

74. That flag didn't even become popular until the Dixiecrats used it as a symbol....

.... of resistance to civil rights and integration in the '40s, '50's and '60s.

Just like the republicans didn't become popular until the Democrats embraced integration in the '60s, '70s and '80s and the Dixiecrats became republicans.

The only heritage that flag symbolizes is:

Jim Crowe laws, segregation and the resistance to segregation.

"segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever"

[loyalsister]

107. Was it used only by the KKK and sympathizers since the civil war?

Was it actually given a double meaning in order to encourage more people to fly it? Clever strategy.

[maggiesfarmer]

75. Best line I ever heard in response to "heritage, not hate":

The Confederacy lasted 4 years -- how much heritage is there?

[Deep13]

78. LOL. And the heritage is one of slavery. nt

[Deep13]

77. "What right do I have to make a claim to know...."

There is a reality here and there are perceptions formed from a selective reading of that reality. The record and the context of that record is absolutely clear.

It's racist.

The flag represents the CSA. The founding documents of the CSA make it crystal clear that they were seceding to preserve slavery. The surviving personal letters of those involved make it clear that they were fighting to preserve slavery. It was financed by the major slaveholders. Agents of the South would have been willing to reconcile with the Union in '64 if Lincoln had dropped emancipation. The tension between slave versus free states had occupied the whole 1st half of the 19th c. The entire shape of the map of the west is the result of an effort to maintain the balance in the Senate. And let's not kid ourselves, despite the problems slavery created for poor whites, the entire white culture was emotionally invested in white supremacy. That doesn't go away because the Constitution has a new amendment. So those soldiers have have rationalized the war as a fight for their rights, but ultimately, those rights depended on a rural, slave-driven economy. The 14th Am. was the peace treaty and its terms were calculated to bankrupt the slave-holder class.

So, any interpretation of the CSA battle flag that does not include white supremacy is revisionist crap designed to make Southern whites feel better about their history. The real way to do that is to recognize that we do not inherit the guilt of our ancestors.

[SheilaT]

83. As so many others have pointed out,

it's a flag of a group of traitors who seceded from the Union expressly to preserve slavery. Often there's a lot of obfuscation around the idea of "State's Rights", but no amount of bs can obscure the fact that it's purely a symbol of hate, treason, and slavery. And failure, too.

[Corruption Inc]

86. "Mutually respectful conversation" with a repuke = you're kidding yourself

Just like the guy who posted "all conservatives are good people" = you're kidding yourself.

My thoughts on wasting time talking to repukes whom have chosen to stay stupid for life are this: anyone dumb enough to waste their time talking to them deserves to be lied to repeatedly.

[loyalsister]

97. She's not a republican

nt

[Vashta Nerada]

87. It's a symbol of racism.

Plain and simple.

Any other explanation is pure bullshit.

[Sgent]

89. It is a symbol of heritage, and a rememberance

for all those who fought under it and lived through reconstruction. Until the civil war there was still a very open question of whether there was a right to secede for the states. To top it off, the war was fought in such a manner that Grant, Sherman, and Lincoln would be considered war criminals had the Geneva conventions been created. Finally, Reconstruction was on par (if not worse) than the Treaty of Versille which caused WWII. The CSA battle flag is a remembrance of the son's who died for their state and country -- they are even afforded full rights as veterans by the US Government as well.

So that's why its a flag of heritage.

Its also a sign of hate. Used as a banner through the civil rights error, and as a rally point against blacks. Crosses were burned, lynchings were performed, segregation was enforced by mob rule, churches were bombed, all under that flag.

The fact of the matter is that much can be said of the swastika. It has a 3000 year history in Europe as a symbol of Germanic pride, but only the last 80 are meaningful.

Today if you fly a swastika your anti-semetic, and today if you fly a CSA battle flag your a racist. The history of those symbols cannot be redeemed by what existed before. Those symbols have been appropriated by their use to be foul beacons to the world that the person displaying them is a racist who is in favor of everything done under those symbols.

[loyalsister]

99. "The history of those symbols cannot be redeemed by what existed before"

Perfectly stated

[B Calm]

93. It is also known as the LOSER FLAG. That's right, they

lost the Civil War!

[Tom Ripley]

96. Yep, I always call it the "Loser Rag" and suggest that perhaps the white flag of surrender...

truly represents the destiny of glorious Ol' Dixie.
That get so pissed, but fuck 'em.

[JCMach1]

95. Trouble for the 'Southern Heritage' folks is it doesn't mean just one thing...

that cow left the barn dressed in white...

That's why as AN AMERICAN (who happens to be a Southerner), I hate it.

[loyalsister]

104. It turns my stomach and makes me very angry I see it

"that cow left the barn dressed in white" well said. I also hate it

Thanks for the responses.

The conversation took place with person who is proud to be from the south and has not been very political for most of her life. As we have gotten to know each other and I have had some influence, she is definitely a Democrat.

She feels that the flag representing her region (in a context of southern\regional pride) has been hijacked. She is angry about it. She would not fly it or display it. AND she is a Democrat.

Understanding that there is very clearly a double meaning is useful. Demonizing a person whose personal feelings and experience with it are very different from mine is not.

[Xyzse]

101. Symbols have many different meanings, and their meanings can change from person to person.

It also changes meaning at different times.

I can see how they can engender strong feelings in many.
Some consider the cross as holy, while it has been secularized quite a bit.
The swastika used to be associated with Thor, and also used in Asia with Buddhism before it got trashed by the Nazis.

Since I don't feel strongly towards any symbol, and many of them can have their meanings bastardized or rehabilitated throughout the years, I tend to think that if a person can use a symbol as a positive, then I'd let it be.

I understand that some people can not get beyond that, and that is fine too, since as mentioned, symbols can be either positive or negative dependent on the person.

I still tend to think, that such a thing in relation to a person is a small part of that person, and I'd rather not limit the people I get to know and befriend due to one or two things that I disagree with, on them. It means, burning a bridge that can lead to understanding.

[Swede Atlanta]

103. The Confederate flag itself is not fascist but it represents

a government who considered slavery an essential part of the southern economy. Many revisionists want to argue that this was all about states' rights and states in the south today continue to be big advocates of states rights. No doubt there were southerners at the time who considered it their rights as independent states to continue a system that the northern states considered immoral.

But you have to see this against the backdrop of what was happening in the American economy at the time. Must of the powerhouse of the economy came from tobacco, cotton and other agricultural products raised in the south. The northern states were known for fishing, furs and small-scale manufacturing.

That was changing. With the industrial revolution, the nascent railway networks, etc. the north was quickly becoming a powerhouse. The south feared it was going to lose its ability to influence national policies and losing slavery which was the lynchpin of the southern economy would be deadly.

Just as Germans consider the Nazi flag abhorrent, all Americans should consider the Confederate flag as inappropriate to be part of state flags or flown on their own. It represents a dark period from out nation's history.

[loyalsister]

106. More than one dark period

In conversations I have had a question I have asked is haven't you seen footage of the KKK flying it during the civil rights movement? Or neo nazi demonstrations?

The person I was talking with did not have the benefit of studying history that goes beyond what was written and taught in the 70s. In other words her education was full of lies and misrepresentations.

One thing this disagreement over its meaning tells me is that education (especially in K-12) on black history and black history month are essential to moving our country toward a better understanding of race relations.

[MO_Moderate]

105. Most people don't care one way or another

Only a few see it as a political punching bag.

[HangOnKids]

120. Really? The topic has elicited quite a few replies just here on this one board

Who are these "most people" you speak of?

[MO_Moderate]

121. Most people

do not base everything in their life on their politics. Hell, most people probably don't know or even care if their friends and family are Republican or Democrat.

[HangOnKids]

123. Those are silly people NOT most people

Welcome to DU, this should be interesting. Cheers!

[uponit7771]

133. Do you believe most people of color don't care? thx in advance for your input

[B Calm]

141. Careful there,

you might blow your cover!

[abelenkpe]

109. Flag of traitors and losers

[GeorgeGist]

112. To me it represents SEDITION.

There are many days when I doubt the intelligence of Lincoln.

[HangOnKids]

131. Great Post but my money is on Peyton

At least 3 picks on Wilson. Peyton takes this.

[yellowcanine]

114. Try asking her how many Southern African Americans display the Cross of St. Andrew?

And then ask her how many Northern white men who have no connection to the South display same said Cross of St. Andrew?

Then ask her which states chose to display the Cross of St. Andrew officially as part of their state flag or as a stand alone flag at the state capitol building. And when did they do this? (See my other post for the answers)

Be prepared for the resulting silence which will make you think you are deaf.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

134. The moment you assume there is a "true meaning", constructive or meaningful discussion is impossible

The Confederate flag is a collection of blocks of colours used as the symbol of a now-defunct political entity.

In itself it is nothing more than that.

People fly it, and object to it being flown, for many different reasons. There is no "true meaning", beyond the very minimal.

There are a number of good objections to flying it, but they need to be phrased in terms of *possible interpretations* of that gesture, not to a "one true meaning".

[loyalsister]

138. That's fair

I don't believe in true meanings. History has shown us that it is an impossible goal. I think that abandoning the possibility to accept and respect varying points of view (assuming they don't have damaging or malicious intent) is a mistake. I also think that that is part of our most serious and salient dysfunctions.

[Marr]

139. Do you feel the same way about Nazi flags? /nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

140. No, and the relevant comparison is "German", not "Nazi".

Nazism is an ideology, not a nation.

I don't feel the same way about German flags as I do about Confederate flags, either, in the opposite direction, because the former are much less indelibly associated with Nazism than the latter are with the defense of slavery.

But the key phrase there is "associated with" - as opposed to "mean".

By flying a Nazi flag, you're explicitly saying "I support this ideology".
By flying a Confederate flag, you're saying "I support* this nation". That has heavy connotations of "I support its ideology", but it doesn't explicitly say that, which I think is a meaningful distinction.

I think it's appalling that state institutions in the USA fly Confederate flags, but I don't think it's quite as appalling as it would be if they flew Nazi flags, or the emblems of specific anti-abolitionist single-issue organisations. "I'm just supporting the nation, not its ideology" is a thin excuse, but not a *wholly* void one.



*FSVO of support - it may just be "feel sympathy with " or "view in a somewhat positive light". But the worst-case case is "support".

[Marr]

144. Not really.

The Confederates stood for slavery. They only stood for a "nation" in the sense that they had to secede if they were going to keep enslaving people. They were an ideological blip in the history of the United States in the same way that the Nazis were an ideological blip in the history of Germany.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

146. I don't agree.

The Confederacy *was*, briefly, a nation. There's no "stood for" involved.

Yes, it only *became" a nation because of slavery, but that's not the same thing at all.

[Marr]

137. Flying a Confederate flag is no different, morally speaking, from flying a Nazi flag.

Both stood for repugnant ideals, both were enemies of the United States who killed a hell of a lot of US soldiers.

They'll say it's about "states' rights", but omit the fact that the specific right they were interested in was their "right" to enslave people. I mean, it's not as if national interests and state interests had never butted heads before the Civil War. But they didn't go to war over McCulloch v. Maryland, did they?

The Civil War was about slavery and the Confederates were on the wrong side of history. That flag is a symbol of a cruel, thuggish culture that was built on racial subjugation. Anyone flying it today knows that very well and only reinforces that perception by proudly displaying such a symbol to people whom they know very well have a legitimate reason to hate it.

[lame54]

145. The other meaning is...

They're a bunch of sore losers

[joeybee12]

150. The South seceded over slavery and only over slavery...

Revisionist bullshit has tried to make it sound like there were many reasons, rural v urban, etc., and while there were differences, the FACT remains that slavery was the one issue that could AND DID get the South to secede...the flag is racist...end of discussion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

159. was this person black? are you? if not, i find it easy to be polite and go beyond diversity

when you are not the person/s directly affected

I think straight people often have polite conversations about denying me my rights, in a way that i would not be able to.

[LostOne4Ever]

162. I would ask your friend

what he/she thinks some random stranger taken from anywhere in the US would think it means if it were shown to them. That is the true meaning of the symbol in my humble opinion.

Does he/she really think a stranger at random would instantly think of southern pride and not racism upon seeing the flag? If so, I got some ocean front property in Arizona I would be willing to sell them.

It is so stained by history that it can mean nothing else. There are many other symbols for southern pride NOT forever chained to the abomination of slavery, segregation, and racism. For instance, MLK was a Southerner. Why not a flag with his face on it embodying something GOOD about the south? Call me crazy, but I have a feeling your friend would object to that.

Or, how about a steamboat, or some southern only fauna/animals? Yet, the people who want to "celebrate southern pride" never use any of these symbols. They insist on using this symbol of racism, slavery, treason, and war.