Have we passed "the tipping point"?

[cali]

On a national level, Is this society and our government too fucked up in too many ways, to repair through the democratic process?

32 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	yes.
	18 (56%)
	no
	12 (38%)
	how dare you ask such a depressing question
	0 (0%)
	Pollyanna is my role model
	2 (6%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[adirondacker]

1. I'm throwing away my college degree to get a job in roofing so I can go out and buy an iPod

at Walmart in order to equalize the income disparities.

[Coyotl]

23. Well, you can make more money roofing than a college adjunct professor makes.

What is needed is to bring everyone at the bottom up into a reasonable standard of civilized life.

[Downwinder]

2. Does the democratic process include Storming of the Bastille?

[Scuba]

3. Long ago.

[ProSense]

4. What

"On a national level, Is this society and our government too fucked up in too many ways, to repair through the democratic process?"

...are you proposing? Or are you just looking for an amen without a solution?

I had to make this point

I cherish people with optimism. I mean, the gloom and doomers seem to prefer that everyone else become equally dispondent to the point of completely giving up.

...twice, but apparently it's spot on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024419591#post1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024419591#post4

[cali]

5. until you can actually respond to anything cogently and without

parroting back and tangentially links, I can only respond to you with one word. It may be overused but it's the only reasonable response to your refined looking but nonsensical posts:

Whatever.

[ProSense]

8. Why the cop out?

"until you can actually respond to anything cogently and without parroting back and tangentially links, I can only respond to you with one word. It may be overused but it's the only reasonable response to your refined looking but nonsensical posts: Whatever."

Why the cop out and nastiness? The OP is a poll, a question.

"On a national level, Is this society and our government too fucked up in too many ways, to repair through the democratic process?"

And I asked:

What are you proposing? Or are you just looking for an amen without a solution?

[Armstead]

6. You left out an inmportant one: "Dunno.... beats the hell out of me."

That's the one I'd choose.

[snooper2]

7. I think DU has passed the tipping point

some people just gotta hate...


Almost makes you wish Romney had won

4 years after Bush, hold it in, just the wimpy ass Congress to get upset about...but it's not enough..

Need More OUTRAGE! GOD FUCKING DAMN IT. People are losing it to the point they can't even put a sentence in the OP.

Nowadays they are so lazy they just start with "Fuck"



People need to get out and smell the flowers...wait, they aren't out yet...FUCK!

music is key!

[ProSense]

9. Oh, what

"Almost makes you wish Romney had won"

...could have been:

Ann Romney 'The Country Lost' By Re-Electing Obama

Ann Romney has a message for voters who helped deliver a second term to President Obama: Your loss, America!

The Romney family postmortem/movie promotion continued Friday with Ann reflecting on Mitt's defeat in the 2012 presidential election.

"I really believe this, you know, we lost, but truly the country lost by not having Mitt as president," Ann said during an interview on Fox News.

<...>

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ann-romney-country-lost-mitt-obama

[cali]

10. It has nothing to do with "smelling the flowers"

It has to do with rational analysis and history.

silly use of little laughing smilies isn't actually an argument.

and Obama is better than Romney isn't one either.

[snooper2]

13. By all indicators everything has been getting better in this country

year after year since Chimpy has been gone--

Facts Matter




Now for some more music!

You like Gaga! !

[cali]

40. right. so there really isn't growing income disparity. so there really isn't more corporate

money money post CU and women's reproductive rights haven't virtually disappeared, and people really haven't given' up on looking for jobs, debt isn't greater, food stamps haven't been cut.

I'm calling bullshit on your substance free post with NOT a fact in it and nothing to back up your claim.

[LordGlenconner]

52. "rational analysis"

[PowerToThePeople]

50. Rec For Key of Awsome.... n/t

[FSogol]

76. Eeyore Underground!

[berni_mccoy]

11. Seems like some people here have, that's for sure.

[polichick]

12. First "the democratic process" would have to be fixed - so it's a chicken and egg scenario.

[The_Commonist]

27. That's what I was thinking.

Gotta get the big money out of politics, or we will remain truly fucked.
Will the "democratic process" make that happen?
Therein lies the rub!

[Liberalynn]

77. there we have it

until Citizens United is reversed we are screwed and I don't see the Supreme
You Know Whats reversing that anytime soon. Also unless we undertake a massive reprogramming of all the Faux Noise ditto heads we are screwed. We maybe able to keep them out of the Whitehouse but that's not enough. We need to win House and Senate majority too and with redistricting I don't see that happening. I will still vote but I am not getting my hopes up that things will change anytime soon. Too much idiocy still out there.

[socialist_n_TN]

58. And that is the crux of the matter.......

As a Marxist, I know that economics, politics, and society are all intertwined with economics driving the other two. Which is why I'm also a Leninist and Trotskyist, aka, a revolutionary socialist. You can't have economic democracy or even long term economic justice until you get rid of capitalism. And because the dictatorship of capital owns the politicians and the politics, you can't change politics until you get rid of capitalism. Societally you can nibble around the edges of social injustices, but you're not going to get to the root cause of oppression until you get rid of capitalism.

Notice a trend here? The solution to ALL of these problems is ridding ourselves of capitalism. And you're not going to "vote" capitalism out.

[Lizzie Poppet]

66. hit.nail.head

Perfectly stated.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. In the literature, Pollyanna was right. She was not incorrectly optimistic, she was

optimistic by practice and this benefited her and all around her. The fact that the term is used as an insult is always interesting to me. But then again, I also agree with Howard Zinn when he said:
"TO BE HOPEFUL in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness.
What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places—and there are so many—where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction.
And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”

Howard is a real Pollyanna. And I mean that as a compliment.

[adirondacker]

17. +1000. Interesting perspective. nt

[MineralMan]

25. Indeed. It is those who believe that change is possible

who make change. It is not those who declare that all is lost. Howard Zinn always believed that action was preferable to giving up.

[socialist_n_TN]

62. Yep, Zinn did think that, but..........

I wonder if his idea of action is the same as yours. I think his idea of action goes farther than the voting booth.

[MineralMan]

63. Well, since you don't know my idea of action,

you're just guessing. I am a voter and a GOTV activist, to be sure. That is not my only outlet, however.

You do not know me. You only think you do.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. True. But the only thing I've seen written from you .......

involves voting for and working to elect Democrats, so forgive my mistake.

[MineralMan]

68. Well, you see, I consider that to be a very important thing

to do, and I work toward that goal a good deal. But, I'm 68 years old, now, and no longer engage in street activism other than walking my precinct. In the past, however, street activism was a large part of my life.

At the same time Howard Zinn was working for civil rights in the mid 1960s, I was doing the same, as a very young man. Later in the 1960s, I was involved in anti-war activities in the DC area, and participated in many actions at that time. Later, I worked to support reproductive choice rights in California, where I lived. I have also been an activist against nuclear power generation, starting in the early 1960s and continuing for three decades.

All during that time, I also worked to elect Democrats, and worked in many campaigns in California, where I lived. Today, I live in St. Paul, MN, where I am a DFL precinct chair. You can visit our precinct website, which I created and maintain, at the link in my signature line. Here, I have worked hard to get marriage equality passed and to prevent the passage of a restrictive marriage constitutional amendment, and to elect people like Al Franken and Betty McCollum, along with progressive state legislators in my state.

As I said, you know very little about me and even less about my life. Don't make the mistake of thinking I am someone I am not. If you presume, you will be incorrect.

But, yes, I do vote for and work to elect Democrats. I always have done that, along with whatever else I have done.

[socialist_n_TN]

71. So I guess by your last sentence, you didn't vote for Ty Moore......

for Minneapolis City Council? Or maybe St. Paulites can't vote in Minneapolis. I understand he only lost by a couple hundred votes. What was your thoughts as DFL precinct chair on his candidacy?

[MineralMan]

73. I live in St. Paul. That's a different city. I don't vote in Minneapolis

city council elections. We have our very own city council. So he's not part of my precinct's responsibilities.

Minneapolis has it's own DFL precincts and districts. St. Paul politics are quite enough for me to handle. I was working on our mayoral election. Sorry to disappoint you.

Both cities are quite large, you see. St. Paul is the capitol city of Minnesota. We have lots of politics to deal with here. I leave Minneapolis city politics to people who live in Minneapolis. They are the ones affected by politics in their city.

That person ran for the city council in Minneapolis Ward 9. I live in St. Paul, in Ward 6 of that city. Completely different things.

[socialist_n_TN]

79. Actually I did understand that..........

But as a DFL precinct captain I just thought you might have had some thoughts. I mean if something is going on in Chattanooga, I usually know about it and at least have an opinion.

[MineralMan]

80. I pay very little attention to city council

Races in cities other than my own.

[BelgianMadCow]

74. It's possible to say all is lost (the old things) and there is hope (in the new things) at the same

time. But indeed, the "alternatives" need to be proposed. They exist. There are posts about it at DU. But it's a general lack of imagination on the part of the public, it seems. People in venues like the AlterSummit do have a clear vision of alternatives. All the movements need to coalesce, and it's happening.

[MineralMan]

75. OK.

I'm not really involved in European politics, though. There's plenty to do right here in St. Paul, Minnesota. Good luck to you.

[Coyotl]

26. Indeed. Don't buy the doom and gloom because you impair yourself.

[Mojorabbit]

32. Great Post! nt

[MerryBlooms]

35. rec

[closeupready]

46. I agree, but you'll get flamed on DU for making this point.

So I've learned not to be positive and upbeat here.

[rustydog]

15. I do not think so and I'll use the Tea Party as an example

The Tea Party started as a good idea by "regular" conservative Americans who wanted to change the republican party and return to what they believed the roots were. "small government, less taxation, blah blah blah...

They failed miserably, and now are a joke, but at the beginning, they did create change. They made the Republican leadership listen to them an they made the Republican establishment dance their dance for a couple of years.

It didn't take violence to change, it took a movement. In the Tea Party's case, it was a messy bowel movement but a movement none the less.

the Liberals and progressives have not had enough yet. They have not said: "Damn it, I'm sick and tired an I'm not going to take it any more!"

They have to stop fearing embarrassment and bloody noses and fight for what they believe in. Blogging and posting on liberal websites is not action, it is a brainier Twitter account.

Action not violence can make the change needed. It takes courage and a willingness to sacrifice for what you believe in.
Liberals are not at that tipping point yet.

[edhopper]

18. The Tea Party

was started by the Koch Brothers.

[rustydog]

29. No they were infiltrated by and taken over by the Koch brothers

[edhopper]

16. I think we had the chance

after the 2008 elections for a new New deal and a true progressive agenda. But Obama didn't want to be FDR and Wall Street in the end won the battle. The result of the anemic response to what the 1% did was a GOP win in 2010.
It may well be too late now.

[LuvNewcastle]

37. Spot on.

I would say that they had a chance and blew it, but they didn't really intend on doing anything serious to fix things in the first place. The public saw that and that's why the Democrats lost in 2010. The people we have in office, both Democrats and Republicans, have no intention of doing anything for the people. It is too late. The people in power have gradually perverted our government, media, and economy to the point where the people cannot effect real change. If we want change, we're going to have to start it outside of the system.

[edhopper]

38. I would say there are a good number of Democrats

in office who supported a progressive agenda.
Unfortunately the President and the Leadership where not among them.

[LuvNewcastle]

43. I don't see how a Progressive Democrat could ever be in a position of real power.

[edhopper]

47. I think it Obama

was a true progressive, they would have been. Unfortunately, he is not.

[TBF]

19. I think the question to ask is whether this gov't

was ever for the people to begin with.

Let's look at facts: European land grab, displace indigenous folks & put on reservations, white male landowners vote, blacks 2/3 of a person, women not even that ....

And any legislation that came into being to help folks - 8 hour day, weekends, child labor laws - we socialists died for those laws (see Haymarket riot) and ultimately were run out of the country for them (see Palmer Raids).

Any and all civil rights legislation was passed after marching, protests, and yes a lot of deaths.

So, could "the democratic process" repair this country? Honestly it never has and I doubt it ever will.



Alternatives as I see them (very pie in the sky so bear with me here) - resource-based economy, libertarian communism, co-op type companies rather than capitalism ... there are alternatives we could work towards. Do I think we will get there without violence? I dunno, I see massive strikes as a necessity but I really think it's going to take labor action in more than one country to even being to attack global capitalism.

[socialist_n_TN]

60. Unfortunately T, too many people don't know the history.......

or they don't put the history under analysis. The "democratic process" under capitalism only makes changes under severe pressure from popular protests.

And as a Marxist, I believe nothing short of a global working class movement which will include massive strikes to shut down the entire shebang will work to regain any sort of true "reform". And if you're going to go that far, you might as well take that one extra step to change the entire system, so that you don't have to ever worry about capitalist subversion again.

[TBF]

69. I didn't spell it all out --

But you know I agree 100 %

[socialist_n_TN]

72. Yes I do know that.........

[pampango]

20. In 1932 the answer was "yes". n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

59. But in 2014?.....

And the reforms of 1932 lasted maybe 3 generations, all the while under constant attack by capitalism, until we arrived at 2014 and ALL of those reforms are threatened to be overturned. Until capitalism is smashed, NO reform will ever be safe.

[MineralMan]

21. And what alternative to the democratic process do you have in mind?

The answer, and my vote, is no, it is not too fucked up. It will only be too fucked up if people stop exercising their democratic process options. Then it will be too fucked up.

So, 2014 is here. Let's exercise regularly in 2014.

DU is part of the democratic process. By using it as regularly as you do, you admit that you do not think it is too late or too fucked up. You are here. If it were too fucked up and it were too late, you'd not be here. What your goal here is, I do not know, but your participation is evidence that the answer to your poll question is no.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

[Coyotl]

22. Of course, those who think so will click the OP in greater numbers, so ignore poll

and start thinking about how much work within the democratic process you have actually done compared to what is possible.

My bet, almost everyone who clicks yes on this poll hasn't ever registered a voter!

Who thinks posting on DU is working within the democratic process?

[MineralMan]

24. 'My bet, almost everyone who clicks yes on this poll hasn't ever registered a voter!'

Exactly. And those who have, and those who have walked precincts to GOTV will answer no to this poll. If it is too late for democratic action, why would anyone bother to post on DU? That's my question. What would be the point of that.

GOTV 2014!

[Coyotl]

28. Some people do DU after a day of working GOTV. Some people do DU instead of GOTV.

The first group is called Progressives, the second group is called Depressives.

[MineralMan]

31. +1

Right now, planning is underway in caucus states, like Minnesota, for the upcoming caucuses and district conventions. At those, the DFL party will caucus for candidates to run and will vote on endorsements for those who do run in the primary elections. There's not much GOTV going on right now, but there's plenty to do on the local level.

In my own precinct and districts, things will be fairly slow in 2014. We have progressives representing us right now, and they'll be running again, so it's pretty simple this year. In other districts, however, there are many opportunities. Chief among these in my area is MN CD-6, Michele Bachmann's district. She won by about 1% in 2012, and there's a great opportunity to elect a Democrat to that seat. So, that's my main interest this year. I'm optimistic, and will be focusing a lot of my energy in that district, but will still be working to GOTV in my own precinct, as I do for every election. As precinct chair, I end up doing most of it myself, but that's just fine. The precinct is compact and easy enough to cover.

[Coyotl]

36. The question should be, "How many have passed the tipping point, and

are so fed up that they are working for change?" That's the tipping point that will make a difference.

What goes on inside one's own head is as useful as a photo of navel lint if no action follows on the real world.

[lapfog_1]

30. people voting yes in this poll

likely have no concept of what non-democratic means to change our government implies.

[Fumesucker]

39. Or maybe they do have a concept and don't think that will happen either

That things are really breaking loose on some social issues is great and long overdue but it tells me the economic issues are the ones which aren't going to get addressed.

The 99% will starve in equality at least and we can gaze together in longing at the legal weed dispensary where if we but had some money we could buy something to make ourselves maybe feel a little better for a while.

[lapfog_1]

45. 2nd amendment remedies?

I think I've heard that one already.

no one is going to take up arms to get access to legal weed.

[socialist_n_TN]

61. I prefer working class remedies..........

That covers a lot more ground than Second Amendment remedies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Would it be such a bad thing if America became a "second rate power"?

Just another country among countries instead of "exceptional"?

[cali]

41. not in my pov, but that has nothing to do with the op. at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. I realize that. But, I think that "exceptionalism" is part of the problem.

We Americans like to think that we're special and have special needs and the right to secure them at the cost of the rest of the world. We continually seek, and elect, "leaders" rather than representatives to insure our special needs and protect us from a long list of threats to our beliefs of being special.

Whereas, 2nd Rate Nations go about their business, provide for their people with medical care, real social security, education, et al, without spying on them, "protecting" them by waging useless wars, having elections financed by the rich.

This country has grown rigid, if not brittle, in its rather childish belief that being a "super power" ensures "freedom" and "prosperity" when the facts prove otherwise.

We, as a people, have become enamored with the idea that slogans that tell us we are special equal reality.

[LuvNewcastle]

42. I think that enough power to defend ourselves is sufficient.

But I'm not someone who owns a multi-national corporation and needs the power of a large military to defend my interests, either.

[Progressive dog]

34. NO,

we may be past the "tipping point", but not just due to the system of government in a country with less than 5% of the world's population.

[grahamhgreen]

48. God I hope not, or we will come to the tipping point of French revolution solutions.

[Douglas Carpenter]

49. it certainly seems to look that way - but in many respects the world has gotten better and in many

respects there are more possibilities of changing the world through nonviolent means than there was at almost any other time in history -

Here is a book that has argued this point very convincingly:

[div class="excerpt]

The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined

by Steven Pinker




A provocative history of violence—from the New York Times bestselling author of The Stuff of Thought and The Blank Slate


Believe it or not, today we may be living in the most peaceful moment in our species' existence. In his gripping and controversial new work, New York Times bestselling author Steven Pinker shows that despite the ceaseless news about war, crime, and terrorism, violence has actually been in decline over long stretches of history. Exploding myths about humankind's inherent violence and the curse of modernity, this ambitious book continues Pinker's exploration of the essence of human nature, mixing psychology and history to provide a remarkable picture of an increasingly enlightened world.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/0143122010




http://books.google.com/books?id=rW9ouQAACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions

[HERVEPA]

51. This is not remotely close to the important tipping point which seems to be universally ignored

That is of course the physical state of the planet.
And is it passed the tipping, point? Sure is.

[tblue]

53. In this lifetime? Probably not.

I think we may see revolutionary change that empowers the 99%. But, as with abolition, it will take considerable time and tremendous sacrifice, and, maybe, leadership that is committed to seeing it through. I don't know how long I have yet on this Earth, but I hope I'll be here to see it. I want my kid will live in a kinder, fairer country. Please don't make it take too long.

[Distant Quasar]

54. As long as the people have the vote, there's hope

Our descent into plutocracy, corporate rule, and political stagnation depresses me on countless levels. But let's face it, the electorate let it happen. And the electorate still has the power to change it, if it really wants to.

I've lived in a country ruled by a corrupt dictatorship. I know what it means for a place to have no hope of peaceful change. And the U.S., for all its problems, is not one of those places. It's going to be tough, unbelievably tough, but we can still turn it around - if the people wake up and act.

[lonestarnot]

82. Good luck with that. 1/2 or more don't know the 3 branches of government. We apparently have

never been interested in democracy.

[Distant Quasar]

86. Yes, lack of civic engagement is a big problem

So is learned helplessness. My point is that the levers of change are still within our reach, as citizens of a free society, and I think it's self-defeating to badmouth the possibility of democratic change. Otherwise, what's the point of being here?

[CrispyQ]

55. Citizen's United, electronic voting, gerrymandered districts, a compromised meda & voter apathy.

Yep, we're fucked.

[Larry Ogg]

56. The people in this country are so far beyond fucked up most don't even know their fucked up.

Besides, how does a democratic process work in a mostly authoritarian society that is ruled by criminals who have thoroughly brainwashed the citizenry with right wing fairytales and lies?

[Enthusiast]

57. It can be done. But all parties must agree to remove money from the political process.

For the good of the nation. Now we know that some do not care about the good of the nation. But most people do.

[TheKentuckian]

64. How would you get to such a "But"? If you could do that we wouldn't have many of the other issues

[Enthusiast]

78. If the idea of publicly financed campaigns were made an issue by political candidates

I believe the concept would catch fire. That's why it's never mentioned. The American people know the problems with the nation stem from influence peddling if not outright bribery. And the American people, of every political stripe, recognize there is a fundamental problem with the nation. It's FUBAR.

[woo me with science]

81. I agree.

Every poll shows that Republicans are as angry as we are.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022849391#post13


Our government, both parties, was purchased by the one percent, and 99 percent of us have been disenfranchised. They are not running Republicans and Democrats for office anymore. All major party candidates are corporatists, or they do not have the money to compete.
....
One big unacknowledged secret on DU is that Republicans across the country are just as angry as we are.

Just as our politicians lie to us about wanting to protect public education and the social safety nets and unions and the environment, their politicians lie to them about wanting to stand for small government, limited government interference in private lives, and the defense of civil liberties. Yet no matter which party is elected, we get the same corporate direction of larger, more oppressive and authoritarian government, assaults on and privatization of public services, and more warmongering.

If we could agree across party lines on just one thing....that our representation has been stolen from ALL of us by the corruption of money in the system....we could join together as the 99 percent to get the corporate money out and demand our representation back. When elections are for the people again, and corporations are not allowed to select our candidates, we can have a real fight in the public square about Democratic versus Republican philosophy. And real Democrats will win.

Right now, we don't get any choice at all. We get two candidates pushing essentially the same corporate agenda, by and for the one percent.

[Enthusiast]

84. Well done!

[bigwillq]

67. The system has been broken for a long, long time.

I don't see it getting "fixed" anytime soon.

[BelgianMadCow]

70. the people need to re-appropriate the political process

whichever way they can. Seek redress of grievances. Organized non-violent resistance. Reform politics. Occupy politics.

[reformist2]

83. It's darkest before the dawn. We're on the verge of winning in ways that will shock the capitalists.

[hootinholler]

85. WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?

No! It ain't over until WE say it's over!

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. "Society"? "Government"? Hah. If only that were all.

It's considerably worse than that, and it's not going to be getting better, regardless of what changes society makes or which party is in power.

The Southwest is in the midst of a drought that's gone on for 14 years:



The major reservoirs along the Colorado River, Lake Powell and Lake Mead, are below 50% capacity; they probably won't refill, ever. Too many people drawing on the water, climate change has reduced the Rocky Mountain snowpack that feeds the Colorado. Seven states and over 30 million people depend on that water. What happens when the situation becomes critical enough to trigger a mass population exodus from the Southwest? From Phoenix and Vegas and LA?

Some climatologists are talking about the possibility of a 60-year drought in the Southwest. And even asking if the current conditions may be the new normal.

Meanwhile, aquifer depletion in the US west has reached a nearly critical point:



And drought is affecting areas of agricultural output, which means they're pumping more groundwater to make up for the shortfall:



Most of that agricultural production of corn? It's not even for food. Over half of the corn crop goes to ethanol. And meanwhile the areas of major shale gas and oil development are largely in the same region:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/United_States_Shale_gas_plays,_May_2011.pdf/page1-1650px-United_States_Shale_gas_plays,_May_2011.pdf.jpg

Fracking uses water. Quite a lot of water. In areas already affected by drought and aquifer depletion. And adds carbon to the atmosphere, which exacerbates the problem by contributing to increased warming:



So yeah, we're past the tipping point; things are fucked, and they're probably going to get significantly worse. And meanwhile you have a Democratic president touting fracking and shale gas and oil as "building a bridge to US energy independence", and major parties fighting over social issues. Which is basically saying "damn, that was a big iceberg. But we're still afloat! Now I think those deck chairs would look better if we moved them over here."

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

89. So many "clever" responses to the OP. Yet not one of them is addressing the points you've

brought up. Curious that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

90. Collective shortsightedness and misplaced priorities

which is why things are where they are now, unfortunately.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

91. this is a lot harder to face.

Or even think about.


It's easier to focus on .... everything else.

[Quantess]

88. Good question. (no text)