Attorneys for retired Tampa cop accused in movie theater shooting say he acted in self-defense

[DonCoquixote]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/attorneys-for-retired-tampa-cop-accused-in-movie-theater-shooting-acted-in/2163705

From the article:

"The motion points to several elements of that law, which says force, including deadly force, is justified when a person feels threatened.

"Clearly … Mr. Oulson had committed at least one, possibly two felony crimes against Mr. Reeves prior to the use of deadly force," it states.

Escobar argued that the fact that Reeves left to complain to management shows he acted "peacefully and prudently" to solve the problem. It was Oulson, Escobar wrote, who committed battery against Reeves under a state law that protects residents 65 and older.

Escobar also pointed to Reeves' resume, which lists his 27 years as a Tampa police officer and the founder of its SWAT team, as evidence that Reeves knew what constituted a threat and acted in self-defense."

OK, let's examine some things:

"Because he is 65, he gets to shoot people?

"force, including deadly force, is justified when a person feels threatened." FEELS. Hell, I feel threatened whenever I have to drive past that damned Confederate Flag they put on 1-4, but I know this law would not help my ass.

and last:

"Escobar also pointed to Reeves' resume, which lists his 27 years as a Tampa police officer and the founder of its SWAT team, as evidence that Reeves knew what constituted a threat and acted in self-defense."

Ok, the founder of the Tampa SWAT is threatened because a guy threw POPCORN, a guy taking care of his DAUGHTER!

[LiberalEsto]

1. It used to be guns vs. butter, now it's guns vs. popcorn

[jmowreader]

14. It was buttered popcorn

Watch them: next thing you know they'll bring Joe Mercola in as an expert witness to prove popcorn fats can be absorbed through the skin. He was only protecting his cholesterol level!

All kidding aside, if he would have drawn and fired during the popcorn barrage there's an outside chance a self defense claim would work. It doesn't work if you go to your car to get your gun.

[kairos12]

29. That is sadly too appropriate.

[gerogie2]

2. Looks like Florida is the wild west.

I guess if someone kills one of yours you kill them now. Courts don't count. Just sayin'...

[bravenak]

3. Right.

Now we have deadly skittles and deadly popcorn.

[BeyondGeography]

4. He was a captain who hated kernels

[pangaia]

26. I can't believe you actually wrote that. :>)

[Cha]

36. He was

afraid of kernels.

[flvegan]

5. As a local, I'm looking forward to your testimony.

You know, since you were there.

Right?

[DonCoquixote]

10. just because I was not there

Does not mean I cannot examine THEIR WORDS that THEY SAY to the TAMPA BAY TIMES and say they sound fishy. If they are talking to the Times (aka the paper formerly known as the St. Pete Times, a paper big enough to name the Ice Hockey rink that held the RNC in 2012), then THEY are offering their words for analysis, and the reader has every right to say that sounds like a load of Bull Dung.

Are you going to tell us that this story, as it was TOLD BY THE SHOOTER HIMSELF, holds water?

Let's say the victim committed a FELONY (as the attorney insists) by throwing popcorn at the shooter.

Let's say (as the attorney insists) that the statute goes by what the defendant "FEELS" is danger?

Let's even ignore the same fact that attorney brought up, that as a founder of Tampa SWAT, the defendant should have a somewhat more advanced sense of what is actual danger. Heck, he used to train SWAT members to make exactly those sorts of life and death decisions, like when to use Lethal Force.

Let's blatantly ignore obvious facts, and boil it down to one thing, if this man FEELS (the statutes word, not mine or yours) that his life was in danger, so much so that he had to use LETHAL FORCE against a man with popcorn, you have, at the very least, a person who was ready to use LETHAL FORCE in a public place over something as non lethal as popcorn.

Maybe prosecutors need to start the bar as low as manslaughter, knowing that the lawyers will demand a slap on the wrist next time some white guy shoots someone. Yes, I deal the race card, because in the cases where stand your ground is a black shooter on a white person, the black person comes out the loser.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/22/1076889/-Black-Shooter-of-White-Victim-in-Florida-Claimed-Stand-Your-Ground-still-went-to-Court#

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/

However, in this case, as in the Zimmerman case, you have people who do NOT retreat, who plow right into confrontation, because they refuse to lose a machismo contest, and they are empowered by the damned gun they bring around with them, like they were some silly Action Hero. That is not an accident, nor even reckless endangerment, that is the sort of malice and aggression that tips the scales towards harder crimes and sentences.

But that's ok...let's keep Florida the Gunshine state where people can shoot if they FEEL threatened. I t will be a pip in 2014 and 2016 when, emboldened by the Verdicts in both these cases, people FEEL threatened by those Liberals, especially when the Koch Brothers toss about a few million to keep the waters boiling.

[flvegan]

33. You're right. We can all be emotional about it.

I think that almost officially, that's what the internet is for.

[DonCoquixote]

34. emotional

OK, I guess there is nothing about the facts that matters. Try convincing sane people that a thrown bag of popcorn was a means of imminent danger.

[Cha]

37. Good post.. thanks, DC

[Straw Man]

6. Of course they do. They're defense attorneys.

The question is whether it will work.

Florida law allows a person to use deadly force when he or she "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." Throwing popcorn doesn't seem to me to meet that test. Unless there's something very significant that we don't know, I'm calling this one as a guilty verdict.

[lpbk2713]

7. Assault with a deadly snack food.

If the jury goes along with this they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[Electric Monk]

8. Well, it is loaded with saturated fat...

[icymist]

9. I seem to have missed something here:

Was the popcorn a deadly popcorn? Maybe a GMO? I know how threatened old folks get at those kids with their cell phones. And men in dresses; they threaten them as well. And those black folk. Eating skittles. And homeless people. I'm sure that the list could go on and on. It is Florida after all, the same state that brought you GWB!

[DonCoquixote]

11. YUP

I remember how people bragged in this same SP times (as it was called then) that they could use SYG to shoot liberals at the GOP convention. I was never so glad we got a Hurricane. This law and those whop are exploiting it are making Florida the Wild West.

[Lurks Often]

12. Here are some of the things that will come up in court

and it will be up to the attorneys on both sides to prove or disprove their theories as appropriate

Can a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm be proven to the jury?

Who initiated the argument when Reeves came back from trying to speak with the manager?

Was there a sufficient disparity of force to justify responding with lethal force, to include any existing medical conditions, especially for Reeves or his wife, that would make them more susceptible to death or grave bodily harm then the average adult?

As REPORTED, it does not look good for Reeves and if I follow the trial to any degree (my boss expects me to work sometimes) I will be curious to see what the other witnesses say. Since the testimony of Reeves, his wife and Oulsen's wife is inherently biased, I won't pay much attention to it other then to see if it matches up with the physical evidence and other testimony.

[DonCoquixote]

13. The only thing that could save Reeves

is if there is something else than the popcorn.

The victim did not hit him, or lurch forward. There is not even a flimsy argument of fisticuffs, as they managed to sell in the Tray Martin case. Unless they can prove the victim threatened to use real force, this should wash.

Note I say should..

However, being the reeves is a cop, and even more so, one of the old angry frightened males of a certain historically advantageous skin complexion, he stands a good chance of walking, namely because he represents the exact same people who support this law, people who are angry, frightened, and really would like to kill the people they do not like.

As I said, this is an election year. I do not put it past certain people to make sure that "election monitors" show up to the polls with a ton of totally legal arsenals.

[Lurks Often]

18. "Reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm" is the general threshold

One does NOT have to wait to be injured, here is an example:

If Mike Tyson (in his prime) approaches the average person and says he is going to beat them to death with his bare hands, a reasonable person will accept that Tyson has the ability to do so and would be considered justified in shooting Tyson before he can land the first blow.

Of course that example is a very clear cut case of reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm and disparity of force, since the average person can not hope to stop Tyson with their bare hands.

[DonCoquixote]

23. popcorn

Unless the victim has some martial art, a thrown bit of popcorn is not a reasonable expectation of danger.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

16. "Oulsen's wife is inherently biased"

Don't forget, Oulsen's wife is also a victim. She was shot through the hand.

I would hope her testimony is given a little weight.

[Lurks Often]

17. And should Reeve's wife's testimony be given weight?

neither wife is, under any foreseeable circumstances, going testify in court that her husband was at fault that day, even, for the purposes of discussion, he was. That is why I place minimal weight on their testimony.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. No. Reeves' wife shouldn't.

Is Reeves' wife a victim of this shooting?

Oulsen's wife is a victim of the shooting. A victim, BTW, that is not even alleged to have been a threat to the shooter. The crazy old fuck shot TWO people.

Thems is the breaks when you shoot an unarmed woman. They get to take the stand and help put you away for the rest of your life.

[Lurks Often]

20. Your post shows that you aren't concerned with what actually happened that night

You are only concerned with what you THINK happened that night based on reporting by people who weren't there either trying to report what happened in a 30-60 second sound byte or some paragraphs in a newspaper.

Hope that if you are ever on trial, the jurors are a bit more willing to make decisions on ALL of the facts, not just the ones they like.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. I'll take the killer's OWN ATTORNEY'S word that the dead man threw popcorn at the killer.

We can even say, for the sake of argument, the popcorn was a real threat (trying to keep a straight face here).

What about Oulsen's wife? What sort of threat was she?

The defendant's own attorney can't even cook up a story that makes her subject to being shot.

I guess it's going to suck for you when she takes the stand and tells how she was shot by Reeves.

(BTW, it was the middle of the day, counselor)

[Electric Monk]

24. I love how our gungeoneers seem to default to taking the side of the one with the gun

It's as if they feel some tribal allegiance or something.

[Lurks Often]

25. I haven't taken Reeves side

I merely pointed out the legal thresholds involved.

I already posted that IF the reported facts are accurate then Reeves is going to jail.

[uponit7771]

35. You give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't see he deserves it. I didn't know he shot the wife to

... too

[Fumesucker]

38. To be entirely fair..

The wife did try to place herself between the gun and her husband, clearly she was deluded enough to think this nice old man wouldn't shoot a woman in cold blood.

[JVS]

22. Good post.

[bluedigger]

15. Too bad we can't have guns at ball parks, then.

This could have been a quite different outcome.

[HockeyMom]

27. Everybody ELSE is armed with a gun

and is going to shoot you unless you shoot them first. Popcorn and Skittles are just the preminary step to pulling out a gun. That is the hidden message. You get that from states that are so lenient (like Florida) with arming too many people.

Save the over 65 crap for REAL ABUSE.

[DonCoquixote]

39. "and is going to shoot you unless you shoot them first"

That very mentality is what makes us the gun death capital of the world? If we are going to accept as default that everybody needs to shoot everybody, then this stand your ground law will be nothing more than an excuse to turn this country into a shoot em up.

As far as over 65, yes there are many I love over 65, but down here in Florida, you do get mentality among the more affluent which is "I got mine, screw you." It is why our schools are among the lowest funded in the whole Nation. It is a subculture that helped put Rick Scott in power, i.e. "screw over everyone else, as long as you leave ME alone." I know many older Floridians do not buy into this, and I am thankful, but whenever you see a GOP voting, law and order, carry around my gun types, you can tell what the person believes, and these are the ones cheering this man, as they did Zimmerman and going right to the gun shops to get their CWP and a BIG gun. I would not be as nasty about it if I did not see the pattern repeated over and over, long before Zimmerman was even news.

[Skittles]

28. he was scared of projectile popcorn

yes INDEED

[davidn3600]

30. Surprise, surprise!

No one saw that defense coming.

[NCarolinawoman]

31. I am still wondering if the guy was taking testosterone supplements.

There was an article in our local paper, News & Observer, a few weeks back, about cyclists in their 60'and 70's throwing bikes at each other and starting fistfights with 15 year olds. The judge says she is seeing it more and more in that age group. EXTREME anger problems.

[Kingofalldems]

32. I would not be shocked to see him get off.

Pretty sad.