A telling phenomenon: the absent outrage over Phillip Seymour Hoffman's criminality

[cthulu2016]

Last edited Sun Feb 2, 2014, 07:29 PM - Edit history (1)

This OP is about weird rifts and cognitive dissonance and hypocrisies in how we, as a nation, think and act about drugs. It is inspired by the way Hoffman's death is being discussed on television and other media. Media reaction is cultural PHENOMENON separate from the underlying events of Hoffman's death. And for anyone who thinks talking about social issues tangential to a tragic event is "too soon," don't read the piece.

I love Phillip Seymour Hoffman and am sad at his death. A real loss. I will have less enjoyment of drama as a result. Worst loss since Phil Hartman for me.

And everyone loves him. I have seldom seen such positive coverage of anyone.

Now, consider this... When he died, Hoffman was in (or had recently been in) possession of a lot of "street" heroin. (10+ individual bags and thus, despite not being a lot of weight, probably good for 'intent to distribute' in some places for some defendents.)

Somewhere a person in possession of a bunch of heroin is being arrested and sent to for-real prison.

So we know that our society believes (as expressed through our laws) that people in possession of heroin are wicked. They are BAD people... some sort of imminent menace to society who should be put in cages to be raped and murdered and such. (That is how we punish crimes here, you know. Rape and violence.)

If we did not, as a society, believe that people with many bags of heroin are evil then we wouldn't have these laws. Right?

But nobody, and I mean NOBODY on TV or anywhere outside some crackpot RW haven somewhere has or will say that Hoffman was evil because they don't think he was evil.

And they shouldn't. I cannot stress this enough. They shouldn't. We shouldn't. I like Phillip Seymour Hoffman. Everybody does.

But when someone we don't know is busted or dies, is some TV statistic, we (nationally) obviously tend to say, "Fuck'em... drugs are bad." Otherwise we think like that as a nation or we wouldn't have the laws we have, would we?

It appears that we have laws to F'ing destroy people for doing things that are not indicative of them being bad.

What's up with that?

Well, we (as a nation) do think a LOT of people are bad for using drugs. Black people, Hispanic people and white people in trailer parks. But we, as a society, obviously do not think this is a real intrinsic evil because it isn't evil when sympathetic people do it.

I do not think Obama's drug early use is any kind of a problem. Not. A. Problem.

But if it isn't a problem then why do we wreck people for doing this thing that obviously nobody cares much about? If it isn't even disqualifying for being President, a singularly high character and public safety threshold since the President has to be trusted to, for instance, not get high and blow up the entire planet, it can't sensibly be bad enough to destroy people's lives over.

We elected a guy twice who did stuff that can carry the same penalty as, say, beating his spouse. So we think this is as seriously bad stuff, right?

But on the other hand, we don't think it is as bad. If Obama admitted to beating his girlfriends in High School he would not be President.

Plus, Obama had the blessing of God because he didn't get caught. If he had gotten caught back in the day for exactly the same behavior he couldn't be president. But he didn't get caught so he is one of the good guys.

Does anyone think that Phillip Seymour Hoffman never had a bag of heroin on him in a drug-free school zone? (It would be quite a challenge to walk around the Village in NY with coming within however may yards of a school. It's a super dense residential neighborhood.)

If he had been randomly stop-and-frisked (I know, I know... but maybe he was wearing dark make-up for a part or something) and been charged with possession of heroin in a school zone there would have been a Daily Hate about it and won't someone think of the children, etc.. But he didn't get caught doing that, so it's fine.

Again, I am not attacking Hoffman, who I adore. I am commenting on the hypocrisy of this neurotic national game of lottery-style justice.

Why is society so pathologically hypocritical about drugs? I suggest two reasons:

1) Because drug laws are an indispensable law enforcement and public policy tool to target certain classes, races, neighborhoods.

2) Because we are a bunch of authoritarian assholes who, in our arrogance and hubris cannot handle the idea of not controlling everything, or really, cannot get over our need for the illusion of total control.

If it is BAD then we must have a law against it. (That is already and insane point of view, of course.) And if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. So if we fail to have criminal laws against X then we are saying X is good. Right?

So if you don't favor criminalizing drugs then you favor drugs, right?

The preceding is an illustration of a scary authoritarian mind-set that confuses personal super-ego with the government, then confuses Government with God, and grooves on the kind of God that throws lightning bolts at people.


And we are addicted to drug laws. We know how crazy they are, but we cannot give them up and will rationalize like an addict to cling to them.

[DURHAM D]

1. Good lord. He died.

This is a bizarre rant.

[cthulu2016]

2. Smart people won't have any comprehension problem with it.

[DURHAM D]

4. Yes, you are correct. I am really really stupid.

[CatWoman]

39. If you're really stupid

I must be a grade A moron.....

[yeoman6987]

64. Me

I am one stupid guy. I don't see the point. He is dead. Why stomp on the guy. We are losing respect for the dead a lot lately. Had he been arrested for possession and everyone was positive then I cod see this OP.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

75. You are totally missing the point. Did you read the OP?

[rhett o rick]

120. You cant fight "righteous indignation." Beside it says in the Bible that you cant speak ill of the

dead. Death cleans away all evil. I think it's in the Bible. Oh I know, I read it on a bathroom wall. LOL. Same difference.

[7962]

127. And there's my laugh for the day. nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. Are you calling D stupid?

I find it rather odd as well. The medical examiner has yet to receive the body...and this?

[morningfog]

82. At worst, they were calling "D" not-smart, and only if D didn't get it.

To the rest of your post. He was reportedly found with a needle in his arm and 8-10 bags of heroin, and he had a history of addiction. The OP didn't make any leaps in speculation.

[whistler162]

12. Smart people are sad....

that you ran out of your meds and tin foil!

[demwing]

43. When I was 13, I went through a stage where I wrote reams of pretentious poetry

that no one understood.

Of course, no one understood it because it was rotten gibberish. I, however, was convinced that it was because there simply was no one sufficiently bright enough to understand the depths of my "genius."

So...how old are you?

[Walk away]

58. I was 17 and dropping acid when I was a literary genius!

You were so young! You were practically a delusional child prodigy! The OP can't touch my teenage brilliance!

[demwing]

69. Here's to being too brilliant

to be intelligible!!!

[MynameisBlarney]

119. I'm 43

and continue to be a self-proclaimed genius.

[bravenak]

104. Me too.

Cept it was short, angsty love stories.
You just made me spit my Cereal.

[LanternWaste]

115. Great way to rationalize poor writing.

Great way to rationalize poor writing.

[ryan_cats]

116. Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron checking in. Roof!

Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron checking in. Roof!

I enjoyed Phillip Seymour Hoffman's art, he was really in a class by himself. He had been clean for over 20 years?

[yardwork]

132. That was rude. And not the best way to make your point.

Since I'm very very dense I had to read your OP slowly in order to get your point, which appears to be that our drug laws are hypocritical.

You could have made an OP that stated "Our drug laws are hypocritical" and made your point more efficiently. Referencing a beloved actor who just died from an apparent drug overdose is always a risky maneuver, as people (the dull ones anyway) inevitably feel bad about that and some will tend to point out that the body's not cold yet, so let's wait before speaking ill of the dead. I know that wasn't what you mean to say. It just sounds that way if you're not very bright. Like me, obviously.

[Luminous Animal]

17. I think it is an exceptionally good rant.

[kelliekat44]

83. I agree. It really hits the hypocrisy nail on the head and I will risk saying this:

our drug laws are racist and elitist..like other laws. They are designed to imprison the poor and non-white populations. It's a pity when someone like Hoffman dies with a needle in his are but it's disgusting when a black youth dies with a needle in his are...for example.

[bvar22]

25. To each their own.

I found this post to be well thought out,
thought provoking, and very intriguing.



DURec.

[Scootaloo]

55. I understood it just fine

1) Society tends to discard unfamiliar people who are found with drugs. We deem them criminal, lesser, sometimes even monsters or subhuman.

2) Hoffman was found with enough packages of heroin that were he alife, he probably would have bene charged with intent to distribute

3) Yet because he's famous, a "somebody," he doesn't get the vilification for this that would be directed at a "lesser" person.

4) cthulhu's argument is that he shouldn't, and the fact that nobody in our society is claiming otherwise - that hoffman should be ilified - exposes a dichotomy in our society's perception of drugs and their users. That being, that they're actually NOT evil terrible things unless we can't put a name to the face.

Cthulhu then concludes that, this being the case, it's beyond time to extend that grace to all people who use drugs - to re-humanize, to discard the rhetoric of abomination against them, because really, they're no different fro mthe late mr. Hoffman, or any other celebrity who uses and gets our heartfelt concern or a free pass.

[hatrack]

91. And thank you for saving me five minutes

[sendero]

101. I get all that..

... except I believe drug abuse should be a public health issue, not a criminal issue. I do not think someone is automatically scum for using drugs, any drugs.

I would however, draw the line at lying cheating and/or stealing to get drugs, at which point you are creating victims.

I suspect a reason people don't get so worked up over this kind of situation is that Hoffman probably did not have to mug someone to get money for his drugs.

[kardonb]

67. PSH

I will never understand how supposedly intelligent people get themselves hooked on this garbage . They know the dangers and consequences , and yet think they are above those dangers , and even worse , above the law , " because they are famous and respected and admired " . Furthermore , they are utterly selfish , without a thought for their family , and the consequences for them . He was a great actor , but a sorry human bring , so sad .

[CBGLuthier]

92. sorry human being?

The poor bastard relapsed after 23 years and you call him that? Got a fucking mirror handy?

[WeRQ4U]

98. With all DUE respect,

You don't know shit about what initially took him to drugs or what pushed him back after two decades. The way I look at it is the same way I look at suicide. The fact that life, children, work etc. are all so valuable means he/she must have been dealing with some pretty heavy shit. And that addiction is one mean mistress. You're assuming based on your own life experiences, feelings, reactions to stimuli, addictions, pain etc that he was a "sorry human". But, put bluntly, his life was different than yours. And no matter how many shows you see or People magazine articles you read, you don't know what it was like in his head.

[FloridaJudy]

128. Amen!

I've known many people who got hooked on drugs due to legitimate pain or anxiety issues. Until it happens to you, or someone you love, you can't begin to understand how powerful addiction is.

Most addicts I've met - and I've met many - aren't bad people. They're sick people.

It's past time to treat them as patients, not as criminals. You get that kind of deal if you're rich or have the kind of insurance that'll pay the inflated costs of rehab. If you're poor or middle-class and uninsured, you get the poky.

Edited to add: Because of course, people like Stephen King and Craig Ferguson and the late Roger Ebert, Anne Richards and Betty Ford are/were stupid and complete losers who never contributed anything to politics or culture in this country. All of them were or are admitted alcoholics and/or addicts.

[Paladin]

99. Take a fucking hike. Your gloating is repulsive. (nt)

[yardwork]

133. We can't all be perfect.

Signed, a recovering alcoholic who stupidly got myself hooked on that garbage for decades. I knew the dangers and consequences, but selfishly continued to drink, proving that I was utterly selfish without a thought for anybody but myself.

At what point, if ever, did I stop being a sorry human being?

[WillowTree]

72. Agreed. Most strange.

[Bonx]

3. It's using vs selling

A heroin user is a sad sack to be pitied.
A heroin seller is someone enabling the former for $$ and is a pariah.

[Major Nikon]

56. I'm not convinced sellers are enablers

At least no more so than liquor stores are enablers of alcoholics. While many people may have problems with drugs, it's certainly not nearly as many as those who use them and many of the problems which do exist are related to the drugs being illegal in the first place. Certainly some dealers are pariahs and feed off of the misery of others, but this is true for legal products and services like alcohol and gambling.

[truedelphi]

77. You say:

"Certainly some dealers are pariahs and feed off of the misery of others, but this is true for legal products and services like alcohol and gambling."

I would like to add prescription drugs to be put in the mix with the alcohol and gambling.

[Maedhros]

129. From what I understand, once one gets on Paxil, it's a bitch to get off. [n/t]

[yardwork]

134. 100 times worse than giving up alcohol, in my personal experience.

Withdrawal effects from Paxil lasted for months, even though I reduced the dosage very slowly under physician's supervision. I still had dizziness, nausea, vertigo, weird electrical lightning-like things in my head, felt like I was being shocked, blurry vision, etc. etc. I felt like I had influenza for weeks. Really miserable experience. I'll never take that drug again. Seriously bad trip, Paxil.

P.S. It didn't help me. I gained a ton of weight and the Paxil didn't touch the depression and anxiety. I figured out a better way to address that without drugs.

[Maedhros]

135. I have a very good friend who started taking Paxil in 1999.

It completely altered his personality, and not in a good way. In the subsequent years he pretty much alienated all of his friends.

[madrchsod]

80. sellers are enablers....

they seek out people or people seek them out for their product. all the dealers i've encountered are people who are addicted. they buy enough to get themselves high on the mark up or what amount they can cut.

[TheMathieu]

6. Good rant.

I see no flaws in it.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Because when confronted with the tragedy of an overdose, most people viscerally understand

that addiction vis a vis hard drugs is a public health issue, not a law enforcement one.

To say our national attitude around drugs is conflicted is an understatement, but I believe it is evolving.

[Captain Stern]

8. Rightous rant..but too soon.

Lots of folks don't even know the man is dead yet. What you said is important, but at least give the body a chance to cool.

[Whisp]

26. It's not so much about the man, but the issue of how

drug laws are used to punish certain segments of people to fill up the prison factories for corporate profit.

that's how I took part of the rant. and it's a bloody great rant if you ask me.

[sammythecat]

131. I have to disagree

Right now is the time. While this issue is in front of us, in our consciousness and the overwhelming public opinion is sympathetic to this tragedy, is the right time to point out the hypocrisy of our condemnation of other addicts. They may be just as worthy of sympathy and understanding but, because they are unknown to us and (this is key) they got caught. We seem to be largely ok with their lives being trashed and being imprisoned, i.e. being raped and beaten for years, while public figures and friends past drug use is pretty much a laughing matter.

[JVS]

9. There is a logical flaw in your post.

You write "If we did not, as a society, believe that people with many bags of heroin are evil then we wouldn't have these laws. Right?"

I assume you're looking for the answer "yes". But just because it's illegal to possess large quantities of heroin does not mean that such possession is universally viewed as immoral. In all likelihood the prohibition against possessing large quantities of heroin are aimed at hindering and punishing those who would like to engage in the distribution of heroin.

There are limits to how much liquor I can transport across state lines. It's not based on the idea that my having a whole lot of liquor is an immoral thing.

[cui bono]

85. I agree. That line struck me the same way. n/t

[1000words]

10. Well ... there goes the absence of outrage.

I'm going to let at least a day go by, before I start wringing my hands over the subtextual issues regarding his death.

[cthulu2016]

13. You seem to be replying to some other OP

There is nowhere in this OP the slightest hint of outrage from me toward Hoffman for being a criminal.

It's weird you would say that, since it is the opposite of the truth.

But that's the internet for you.

[frazzled]

11. No, you're making a lot of unrelated assumptions

You say the laws we have regarding heroin presume that the heroin user is evil. Not in the least. The laws prohibit the sale or use of heroin because it is a very dangerous drug. I think Philip Seymour Hoffman's death proves that to be the case. If an incredible career doing what you love to do, and all the money and awards gained, and a loving family, and tons of talent can't overcome the allure of a drug that can kill you (and end everything you love), that drug is too powerful. And it needs to be regulated in our society: because we regulate things that kill people: from environmental hazards to dangerous automobile speeds to drugs.

I think everyone agrees that heroin is bad. Not the people.

Are the laws applied unequally? Sure. That's true of almost all our laws. That says less about the laws than about the way we enforce them. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws. Maybe these aren't the exact right laws, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Your argument is very very addled. I won't speculate as to why it is so addled.

[hfojvt]

15. but it is the people

who are put in cages.

[frazzled]

20. Look, the traffic laws are unequally enforced

We know for a fact that if you're a black person driving a car, you are going to be stopped and ticketed more than if you are a white person. The people get hurt.

Does that mean we shouldn't have traffic laws?

All kinds of laws in our society are enforced badly: from littering to murder to rape. Does that mean we should not have laws?

Maybe the laws need to be amended: say, we put heroin dealers in prison, but users should be sent to treatment first. (Actually, this is what happens in the vast majority of cases).

It doesn't mean we should legalize heroin.

[Are_grits_groceries]

14. So you have to post this NOW?

A few hours after he passed.

I'll pass on rants now. There should be a little time to mourn who we lost.

We have a lot of time to discuss the whys and wherefores. PSH ran out of time. That is enough for now.

[Liberal_in_LA]

16. he wont be called a crack ho like whitney houston was - race stlll matters

[Luminous Animal]

19. +1

[1000words]

21. Please. Houston/Brown saga was a train wreck.

They were in the papers weekly, for behavior that increasingly screamed gutter-level addiction.

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. so heath ledgèr and hoffman's addictions were clean middle class high minded addictions?

[1000words]

31. The fact they pretty much came out of nowhere ...

means we are comparing apples and oranges.

[bettyellen]

49. H. Leger was a total mess for a while, but the tabloids ignored it. Maybe because he was cute with

a blonde wife and baby? Possibly given a pass because he was a young heart throb, and no one wanted to see it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

51. guy who plays iron man, major train wreck, broke into home slept in some kids bed

Arrested, still didn't get the venom a black celebrity would have received

[REP]

70. "It's like I have a gun in my mouth and I like the taste"

- Robert Downey Jr on his addiction(s)

I think it's one of the better descriptions of addiction.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

123. I don't think you are recalling how guys like Letterman and Leno used RDJr. as a punchline....

....for a good long while until everyone forgot about his very existence for a couple years there.

Had Ledger or Hoffman had any sort of history like that....they'd be what Lindsay Lohan is right now.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

125. The difference was they were able to function as drug addict without calling attention to themselves

They weren't on reality shows airing their dirty laundry, or going out into public to perform and clearly not being able to.

Whitney Houston had a whole TV show about what a train wreck her life with Bobby was. When you condition people to believe your life is a big embarrassment in public, that's what happens.

[malaise]

35. Thread winner

and it was never too early for that

[Warren DeMontague]

36. So he should check his privilege?

He's dead, for fuck's sake.

[hfojvt]

18. everybody doesn't like Phillip Seymour Hoffman

until yesterday, I had never heard of the guy.

I think Obama's early drug use IS a problem. Doesn't mean I think he should have gone to jail for it, but it also was not one of his better ideas.

[demwing]

48. Isn't it possible that Obama would not have been the man he is

if he hadn't lived the life he lived?

Objectively, he is the first black man elected president of the US, a multimillionaire, a best selling author, a Nobel prize winner, and the leader of the free world.

But by all means, let's imagine what he could have done if he hadn't made such bad choices. Warning kids: DON'T DO DRUGS, or you might grow up to be just like Obama...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

76. Lolz!

[hfojvt]

88. except he made a good choice

he quit doing drugs (except nicotine)

[demwing]

89. Did he?

He still smokes cigs, and still takes America"s whitewashed drug of choice (alcohol), so it's clear that his dividing line on what intoxicants he'll take is drawn along legal bounds, not some anti-intoxicant morality,.

If pot were legal, I would bet that Obama would be rolling blunts in the West Wing. Sounds silly now, but when prohibition ends, it will happen. Some day we'll have an open stoner in the White House, and people (some people) will still pick candidates based on who they'd rather sit down with to grab a beer and share a bowl.

[merrily]

63. I guess you did not see the Ides of March then?

I thought all political junkies would have seen that one.

It's subjective, of course, but I think PSH was one of the top 5 actors in US movies in the past few years. For me, Daniel Day Lewis is in a class of his own, but PSH was in the next tier.


Physically, he was not the type Hollywood typically casts as a romantic lead or he would probably have been in many more movies than he was.

As I said, it's subjective, though. I'm no professional acting critic.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Surprised that a person with political interests whould not have seen Charlie Wilson's War

which was in my opinion, Hoffman's best work. What a film. Go see it.

[Amaril]

95. Absolutely agree!

He was phenomenal in Charlie Wilson's War, and also in The Ides of March. PSH was one of the few actors whose movies I would see -- even if the subject matter of the movie wasn't of great interest to me -- just because he was in it.

R.I.P., PSH.

[dballance]

22. good post /nt

[Whisp]

23. best rant I've heard here in a long time.

ty, cthulu2016, for speaking so many truths.

[truedelphi]

24. The person who called me to tell me Hoffman is dead also said

Initial reports stated that he had a needle in his arm.

Diabetics die this way, every day. Can be anything from a heart attack, to a brain aneurism, to not getting the insulin into your system in time.

So I need to ask:

Was there actual heroin in his residence when he died?

Or simply a needle in his arm?

[erpowers]

50. Yes

It was reported on the news that police sources claimed that multiple bags of what seemed to be Heroin were found in his apartment.

[AngryAmish]

57. He was an admitted heroin addict.

I di not know of his other health conditions.

[chillfactor]

27. sorry..the man is dead

he paid the ultimate price for his behavior....good god....let him rest in peace already

you are tramping all over his grave and he is not even buried yet.........

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. I think it's TOO SOON to talk about the heroin.

My God, some people have no empathy for his family or sense of timing.

A lot of people, like me, are still stunned. I am not a huge fan of movies, but I certainly knew who he was from Capote and Charlie Wilson's War.

I figured out many years ago that rock stars never get busted for hard drug use because they are wealthy and have publicists to hide or smooth things over. And good lawyers.

So, Cthulhu's basic premise is correct, but I think it's too soon to talk about it. PSH admitted publicly that he had drug problems, and that took a lot of guts.

PSH was a great actor.

[Fumesucker]

30. Interesting how polarized the reaction to your OP is n/t

[hunter]

32. No, I don't think it's too soon.

Drug addiction is a public health problem, not a problem for the law to deal with.

Make treatment easily available to everyone, along with supervised dispensation of quality, pharmaceutical drugs if necessary.

If we did this, much crime would evaporate and tragedies would be rare. If drug addiction was treated as a chronic disease rather than a crime patients would have no incentive at all to deal with criminals. How many people are buying unsourced, unlabled beer in two liter pop bottles from sketchy street corner dealers this Super Bowl weekend?

But there is too much money in it for the authoritarians, the bankers, and the criminals they associate with. Drug "enforcement" is used as an excuse to harass and imprison certain classes of people, to collect and launder money from criminals, etc., etc..

[mike_c]

33. regrettably, I can only rec this OP once....

[deathrind]

38. The real...

Tragedy here is the 3 children he was a father of. From what I have read they are young and will not understand why dad is suddenly gone but their world as of today changed irrevocably and it will never be the same.

[AuntPatsy]

40. It's really no surprise to myself, I applaud your Op, Recommended. Hopefully it will open some

Minds. Though some tend to automatically shut out the truth simply because it hits too close to home...

[2naSalit]

41. Good rant

appropriate for the situation and I don't think it was too soon. For some, it will never be the right time.

You make good points, some I think you could have elaborated on a bit more but I got it and applaud your skill in articulation.

[justiceischeap]

42. I think the difference between PSH and other heroin addicts is how they go about

getting their drugs. I'm guessing PSH had someone that purchased his drugs for him or at least had a contact that brought the drugs to him (if it was indeed drugs that killed him, there's no confirmation of that).

However, people like my dead sister, did things like steal or prostitute themselves to get their drug of choice because they weren't/aren't wealthy like celebrities. Having lived with a heroin addict a good portion of my life, I can see the difference in behavior. I'm guessing PSH didn't rob his family for his drug fix. He didn't come across as a "junkie" even though he may very well have been one. In a lot of ways he was a "respectable" junkie and to think there isn't a difference in how society views such, is silly.

Also, was PSH ever caught purchasing drugs? We don't know but I'd suspect he hasn't or we'd have heard about it. Robert Downey Jr's heroin habit had him in and out of court with a brief stint in state prison. If someone isn't doing things that will bring attention to their drug habit, the justice system isn't going to be able to do anything about the illegality of their actions.

[Logical]

44. Not too soon, great points! n-t

[theaocp]

45. Thoughtful and illustrative post. Thanks.

K&R.

[Android3.14]

46. Too soon

Using this tragic death to rant about the disparate application of laws in our society is a poor example and does little to illustrate the points which you raise.
Justin Bieber, Michael Jackson, and any number of politicians would be better foils.

[closeupready]

47. I'm usually 'meh, tl;dr', but this was excellent. K&R

Thanks, cthulu.

[JEB]

52. Why is society so pathologically hypocritical about drugs? I suggest two reasons:

I would add: There are many many people and corporations making (taking) money via our life destroying War on Drugs. Profit is the only true law in present day America.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

53. Cthulhu, I have a question.

Did you get your panties in a wad this quickly after Lou Reed died?

He had liver failure from a lifetime of drug abuse. He sang about heroin in "Sweet Jane". "Sister Ray" had the line, "I am searching for my mainline."

Did you get this bent out of shape before Lou Reed's body was cold?

I thought Lou Reed was an excellent musician. "Rock 'n' Roll Animal" is a fabulous live album.

[anneboleyn]

62. Good point, one wonders. But PSH isn't from the"right" generation perhaps?

[Warren Stupidity]

71. at least get your facts straight, lou had hepc that is what borked his liver.

Heroin didn't kill him. Needle sharing probably got him infected. Heroin isn't nearly the medical problem that prohibition is

[Manifestor_of_Light]

102. But he did die indirectly as the result of IV drug use due to the Hep C.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. He died more directly as a consequence of drug prohibition.

You can blame heroin all you want, but heroin won't give you hepc. Drug prohibition will. You can take heroin right out of the equation, and substitute another drug that is injected and prohibited and hepc will show up again.

It isn't heroin. It is needle sharing that is a direct consequence of prohibition.

[dreamnightwind]

54. Well said

I think our society is addicted to punishing. It lets some of us feel better than others of us. Pretty much everyone is totally screwed up. Some of us are more successful in this pathological society than others, which is not necessarily a recommendation for the successful ones, many of them are too self-interested to admit to any flaws of their own and use external vilification as tools to demonstrate their own superiority.

I really liked the take on addiction that came out of some academic recently making the rounds, sorry I forget his name, he was black with dreads, very articulate. Anyway he countered the oft-repeated study on rats where they would repeatedly choose stimulation over food, to the point of starvation. It turns out that if you take care of some of the rat's actual needs, such as companionship and a decent living situation with interesting things to do, the rat does not fall into an addictive relationship with the artificial stimulus.

This could be applied to people, and should be. Anytime someone's addiction rises to the level of impacting society, or of the person being largely unable to function, their full life context should be looked at, and there should be a mechanism for society to step in and give their lives some meaningful qualities. Set them up with a loving pet, help them connect to friends or possible life partners who are similarly not making it, provide some real and meaningful work opportunity and hook them up to it, if necessary even train them for it, work with them on a human level to address their own shortcomings so they can connect and make it, whatever it takes, a non-punitive approach that recognizes and values the humanity of the person in trouble and sees the cause for what it is rather than "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

edit to add: nothing in my post is meant to apply to Hoffman or his death, I hardly know who he is let alone the circumstances of his death. Like the OP, I find the larger issue more compelling than a celebrity death.

[Myrina]

65. ^^ this ^^

Thank you.

[dreamnightwind]

126. You're quite welcome

and the academic guy's name is Carl Hart, Columbia University. I'm watching him on the Chris Hayes All In show right now talking about Seymour and related drug issues.

[mimi85]

59. I've read some off-the-wall posts on here

but this one may just be the topper. A celebrity death? And of course it even managed to get Obama in there. Can't we even wait until the final report comes out? Sheesh, I'm trying my best to avoid the Super Bowl in the other room, but this wasn't the place to come to avoid idiocy.

[Ilsa]

60. I didn't know he was a drug user. I'm still trying

to realize that he actually died today. How could I be on some kind of philosophical meltdown or tirade already?

[Rex]

61. Our society has many laws, that apply differently depending

on what social caste you find yourself in. So 'evil' is to a degree based on if you are rich or poor - if you are a 'have or a have not'.

If you are poor and get caught with drugs, then likely you are also doing something else bad (shoplifting, petty theft, armed robbery, etc). If you are rich, you are probably doing drug because it is hard running a company and the feds are always on your back etc.. While we pretend the law is absolute, it is in fact very flexible based on the monetary system and where you fall into that system.

As far as authoritarian assholes go...they are a very bad problem right now...they infest both parties and like to shut things down or fuck things up by lying to Congress.

[They_Live]

66. This is a strange way to find out

that Phillip Seymour Hoffman died. Wow.

I will miss his talent and wit. Sad to hear that he is gone.

[LuvNewcastle]

68. Thanks for the post, cthulu.

[argo]

73. A telling phenomenon: the absent outrage over Phillip Seymour Hoffman's criminality

I am in step with the author of this story.

As someone who enjoys movies, I have been a fan of PSH.

But, he was found dead appearing around illegal stuff appearing to do something illegal. And yes, why we can admire his "art" and easily separate it from his addictions and "criminal acts".

And yes, we do need to look at our laws and ideals when we incarcerate so many people in this country for drug related crimes.

The hypocrisy lies in the fact that we can be satisfied that prison building and operation is a growth industry. Prisons are privatised and are for profit businesses.

The fact that prisons are built and/or sustained by hypocritical values and not fair and just laws and penalties should alarm everyone.

As a populace, American's have mostly decided drugs and drug use are not as bad as the punishment for their use is. Yet, we can look sympathetically on the tragedy of celebrity illegal use, abuse and overdose while at the same time ignore the injustice of lives and dreams ended because of ridiculous laws.

[AndreaCG]

74. Then there's the mental illness factor

A lot of people with untreated mental illnesses self medicate with illegal drugs. There's still a stigma to mental illness. People with physical ailments, even smokers with lung cancer or fat people who have a heart attack, are seldom scrutinized in the same way as a bipolar or schizophrenic person. Treatment is much more difficult to get. Inpatients are discharged prematurely, often with subpar after care. Insurance companies are loath to cover mental illnesses, or the hoops they need to jump through discourage some doctors from participating in insurance. (My psychiatrist doesn't and my insurance hasn't reimbursed me in years. I'll see if obamacare makes a difference.) Prisons are filled with the mentally ill, with virtually no treatment unless the court found them not responsible because of it.

I am very open about being bipolar. I consider myself lucky because I am not the type who gets full blown mania, where most of the "crazy" behavior comes from. But depression is no picnic. I've been out of work twice for a year each because of it. I work for the courts so going back to work is no problem, but almost 30 years of intellectually stultifying work has me extremely burned out. I know I'm lucky to have a good job but Oct 2015 can't come too soon (55 and a pension). On the plus side I have a wonderful psychiatrist and the meds work pretty well, though we're frequently adjusting them. I am again one of the lucky ones.

I don't know if Philip Seymour Hoffman had an untreated mental illness, as Charlie Sheen for example clearly does. But many creative types are prone to it, especially bipolar disease, where manic and hypomanic states are by definition productive of creativity. I'd argue that without the thinking outside the box that mentally ill people do, the world would not have the advanced civilization that we do. Nevertheless, the downsides to it must be treated, and America does a piss poor job of it.

[blue neen]

87. Excellent post.

There has been an epidemic of OD deaths from heroin in PA the past few weeks. It's been labelled "Theraflu", and it's laced with fentanyl. In spite of many warnings from doctors and medical examiners, the addicts are still using it and dying.

Most of those who have OD'd are 30 and under. It seems to be more acceptable to them to be a heroin addict than to take anti-depressants. There's got to be a better way to educate our children, and society in general, about getting genuine help instead of self-medicating.

[Comrade Grumpy]

78. Yes and yes. Excellent rant.

[madrchsod]

79. unless you have lived in that culture you have no real understanding of heroin and it`s addition.

three of my friends have died of heroin overdoses. one of them died last year after fighting it for years. there was nothing anyone could do for them. fortunately i've helped two people from dying of an overdose.i do know one of them kicked their demons and is still alive today.

i onced asked a very wise man about how i could help one of my friends on heroin and replied.."you can offer them a full loaf of bread and they`ll only take half."

what ever demons mr hoffman had they only allowed him to take that half a loaf of bread.

this might not be the right time to discuss this but....what time is the right time?

[Orrex]

81. I was afraid I'd have to wait 12 hours before reading a vulture piece like this

Whew!

[Paladin]

94. +1. "Vulture Piece" is a good description. (nt)

[demwing]

107. Yes it is, and the insinuation

that those who don't appreciate the post are just not smart enough is particularly despicable. (see post #2)

[brett_jv]

117. What are you even talking about?

A 'Vulture Piece'?

What, do you think the author is getting paid for it?

Oh, please ...

[morningfog]

84. Good post.

I'm surprised at the push back on your post. As far as timing goes, strike while the iron is hot.

You raised good points that need to be discussed. I hope his death doesn't become just the recent missed opportunity to discuss the truth of addictions, and the role of drug laws, rightfully including race in that discussion.

[Egalitarian Thug]

86. We are addicted to mean and stupid. I don't know exactly when it happened, or even if the change

Last edited Mon Feb 3, 2014, 05:23 PM - Edit history (1)

was brought about suddenly or grew over time, but the Americans I find myself surrounded by today are a lot meaner and dumber than those I grew up around.

Not long ago you could engage any random person on the street on a variety of topics with the foreknowledge that we shared a common basic educational level, a common frame of reference. Today, I'm impressed when people can avoid drooling.

[Puglover]

90. Spot on!

So very very sad.

My husband and I left. We now live in Otavalo Ecuador. Maybe because our weather is perpetual Springtime but people are kind and happy. Although many do not have much in the ways of material things they focus on and love their families. Everyone is greeted with a smile.

In some ways I miss the States. But not in the way you speak of.

[gopiscrap]

96. I totally agree with you

[randr]

97. I would venture a guess that a number of people died yesterday from Oxydone

or one such similar prescription drug. This over prescribed "medication" is the molecular equivalent of Heroine. Just as addictive, just as dangerous.
The war on "illegal" drugs is a ruse intended to perpetrate the idea of "us" and "them".

[MicaelS]

100. I vote #2

2) Because we are a bunch of authoritarian assholes who, in our arrogance and hubris cannot handle the idea of not controlling everything, or really, cannot get over our need for the illusion of total control.

If it is BAD then we must have a law against it. (That is already and insane point of view, of course.) And if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. So if we fail to have criminal laws against X then we are saying X is good. Right?

Looks at the righteous indignation the anti-smokers get into. Like over here:

Smokers could get $50 tickets for lighting up under new outdoor smoking ordinance

Tobacco Prohibition is just another Drug Law.

I wonder if the same righteous indignation will be in play against Cannabis when it is fully legalized? Somehow, I don't think so.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

103. I think it's an excellent OP. There is not a shred of animosity towards PSH.

The OP is about THE HYPOCRISY OF DRUG LAWS and their ENFORCEMENT.



I've noticed that trying to make points by drawing comparisons highlighting double standard behaviors is very hard to do here.



Be at peace, Mr. Hoffman, Sir. I am awed by your work. Your talent is breathtaking. I'll miss you---I am very sad to say goodbye.

[bravenak]

105. Isn't it stupid?

The drug laws haven't even lowered drug use.
If you're hooked on heroin it's hard as hell NOT to have a bag on you at all times, if you don't, you projectile shit all over your moms bathroom. I've seen someone do this. I gave him money cause I couldn't help myself. All that crap and vomit, I just wanted it to stop so he wouldn't die.
We should treat the person in a medical environment and stop acting like its a crime to self harm.
Dumb ass drug laws are making somebody very wealthy and I hate that.

[Madmiddle]

106. Here we go again.

Hoffman was a heroin addict, actor and probably quite rich, with everything going for him. That people feel bad, whatever. I couldn't care less. But, and here's the thing, he was found with a needle in his arm and he had overdosed on a drug that is the worst drug out there. And people are all " it's so sad, it's so awful," you don't suppose that there are younger folks, that actually read, that are going to take this message that's it's okay to do this themselves. I mean Jesus, he was doing heroin. People get put away for life for that shit. and there are people crying for this heroin addict. Sorry, I feel like maybe he should have only gotten maybe a paragraph in the obituaries.

[Paladin]

109. You're exhibiting one of the really ugly effects of heroin.

Terminal self-righteousness in non-users. It's approaching near-lethal levels on the DU threads dealing with Hoffman, so don't feel lonely.

[brett_jv]

112. Yeah, that's pretty much BS man ...

a) He obviously started drug use at a very young age, which means he was probably an addict before he really knew what was happening. Once you make yourself an opioid addict, you are an addict for life. All it takes is one slip ... and it's VERY easy to slip, esp. since opioids are still the only strong pain killer available ... and you are right back into the mess of active addiction, because withdrawals will occur nearly immediately upon resumption of use of opioids for any purpose, even legit medical ones. Also, dude had 23 friggin' years clean. To have the wherewithal to get clean at 22, and build a stellar acting career for yourself, and stay clean for that long ... that is something to laud, and to people with a heart, this is a tragic reminder of just how difficult a situation addicts face, for the rest of their lives.
b) It's a friggin disease. Granted, it's one you, in a sense, 'bring on yourself', but people often bring on heart disease (by how they eat), for example ... but we don't get all judgmental about that (usually), we feel sorry for them because they're sick/dying.
c) 'Worst drug out there' ... and by this we mean 'the most friggin' addictive', which in turn means, the hardest to quit. Which SHOULD mean, to a civilized person, that some understanding is in order. It's no simple thing to deal with.
d) And by the way, millions of people have taken very similar drugs called 'prescription pain killers' ... I bet you've even taken them yourself at some point. If you didn't end up addicted to them, consider yourself lucky. You don't have the 'gene' that many other people do have when it comes to this stuff.
e) NOBODY INTENDS to become addicted to something. But if you have a genetic proclivity towards a particular drug's effect, you're in trouble from the FIRST TIME you ever take it ... and yet you have no way of knowing beforehand.
f) Who the hell is going to read that somebody DIED from a drug, and then think 'oh, it must be okay to do, because here's people feeling bad about it'. That's bullshit, and that's not a good reason to be all 'oh, whatever, evil junkie!'.
g) Most people here ... do NOT think people should be 'put away for life for that shit', because most of us are actually enlightened about the fact that addiction is a disease. Addicts need HELP and compassion, not condemnation.

This is a great article, btw. I totally agree.

I do find myself remembering the article about the fentanyl-laced Heroin that's been going around and killing people, and wondering if he's another victim.

[randome]

108. How could you not have a number 3 in your list?

#3: Because people on drugs do shitty, dangerous things and society reacts to this in the most direct, unimaginative manner possible: by making such drugs illegal.

Society, as a gestalt, is not very bright nor is it overly concerned with doing everything the 'right' way.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[valerief]

110. But heroin is supposed to be for the 1%. It's criminal for everyone else.

That's one of those unwritten laws, like how Laura Bush and Alice Walton can kill people with their cars and that's okay. But for the 99%, it's tangerine fashion time.

[Dopers_Greed]

111. Fuck you

If he had been busted for possession, and released quickly with minor charges, then I think people would be discussing the criminality behind it.

But, c'mon, he died.

He was my favorite actor, so I've accepted that I may have a biased opinion about this. But really, the entire rest of the media, news and social is eulogizing him. The only place I've seen trashing him are posters on this website.

[brett_jv]

113. Try going to the CNN article about it ...

It's roughly half cool people eulogizing him, and the other half going 'Oh, WHATEVER ... Junkie got what was coming to him'.

[Dopers_Greed]

114. Didn't see their's, but you're probably right

Though I like to think we hold a higher standard than the cesspool that is the CNN comments.

[Nitram]

121. Sorry, cthulu,you're right, heroin addicts aren't criminals.

They need treatment, not punishment.

[Mr.Bill]

122. A thought that crossed my mind

was how different the public reaction would have been if the dead person with the needle in his arm had been Justin Bieber.

[tblue37]

130. Don't forget, a lot of players have a vested interest, both political and financial, in keeping

drugs illegal. It is a financial bonanza for many.