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steve2470

(37,457 posts)
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 07:43 PM Feb 2014

Why Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Death Is So Scary

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/02/philip_seymour_hoffman_s_drug_death_the_science_of_addiction_recovery_and.html?wpisrc=burger_bar



I cried when I heard about Philip Seymour Hoffman. The news scared me: He got sober when he was 22 and didn’t drink or use drugs for the next 23 years. During that time, he won an Academy Award, was nominated for three more, and was widely cited as the most talented actor of his generation. He also became a father to three children. Then, one day in 2012, he began popping prescription pain pills. And now he's dead.

The root causes of addiction, like those of many multifactorial diseases, are frustratingly elusive, a nebulous mixture of genetics, exposure, and environment. Addiction runs in families, but plenty of addicts come from families with no history of the disease. Availability plays a role, too—but having access to crack doesn’t make someone a crack addict. The science about recovery is also hazy: Alcoholics Anonymous, the most widely used form of treatment in the country, has no set structure or methodology, which makes it tough to evaluate its effectiveness. (There’s also the fact that its core principle—that members never publicly acknowledge their presence in the program—makes broad longitudinal studies difficult, to say the least.) In-patient treatment centers, like the one Hoffman checked himself into last May, have been accused of obfuscating their success rates.

If anything, the science on relapses is even more slippery. (We do know that relapse rates for drug and alcohol addiction are comparable to people’s inability to control other chronic illnesses, such as type 2 diabetes, asthma, and hypertension.) The challenges are as basic as agreeing on a definition for long-term sobriety. In a graphic titled “Extended Abstinence is Predictive of Sustained Recovery,” the National Institute of Drug Abuse says, “After 5 years—if you are sober, you will probably stay that way.” I unconsciously added a “forever” to the end of that sentence—but the study that chart is based on ran for eight years, a bar Hoffman cleared easily.

My first attempt at recovery came in 1991, when I was 19 years old. Almost exactly two years later, I decided to have a drink. Two years after that, I was addicted to heroin. There’s a lot we don’t know about alcoholism and drug addiction, but one thing is clear: Regardless of how much time clean you have, relapsing is always as easy as moving your hand to your mouth.
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Why Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Death Is So Scary (Original Post) steve2470 Feb 2014 OP
Ugh. Yes. Lesleymo Feb 2014 #1
best wishes for you and your son ! nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #2
+1000 nt narnian60 Feb 2014 #16
I'm so sorry Lesleymo...Keep a stiff upper lip and have faith in your son. Auntie Bush Feb 2014 #63
Kick.... daleanime Feb 2014 #3
All true, unfortunately Warpy Feb 2014 #4
Excellent points Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #6
My sister has done great with AA, my brother has not. johnp3907 Feb 2014 #11
They call it hitting bottom Warpy Feb 2014 #12
Yeah, late night phones calls are nerve wracking. johnp3907 Feb 2014 #23
I'm the snide cynical type Flying Squirrel Feb 2014 #32
Right, and I'm the snide, cynical type Warpy Feb 2014 #76
I have a family full of addicts loyalsister Feb 2014 #31
Did a doctor prescribe pain pills to him? abelenkpe Feb 2014 #5
They will. Most doctors know very little about addiction cally Feb 2014 #9
Many Won't, Even When They are Needed for Actual Pain AndyTiedye Feb 2014 #17
This is a problem too get the red out Feb 2014 #55
It is Actually Much Worse than That AndyTiedye Feb 2014 #67
Dear GOD get the red out Feb 2014 #72
Drug addiction is horrible. My thoughts go out to all those, and their WestSeattle2 Feb 2014 #7
Why are you so confident he made it 23 years clean? Lost_Count Feb 2014 #8
Me ? That's the article text you're reading nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #10
Fair 'nuff... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #18
That word is there Flying Squirrel Feb 2014 #33
Absolutely... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #35
Why are you so convinced he didn't? Oh yeah, you don't like that "innocent until proven guilty"? CreekDog Feb 2014 #14
I can believe it he made it 23 years steve2470 Feb 2014 #15
Very possible... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #20
ok I see your point nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #22
Apparently when he was not sober, it was quite obvious. morningfog Feb 2014 #36
WHAT A LOSS ON SO MANY LEVELS Samantha Feb 2014 #13
Last year,after 23 years in recovery,... MarianJack Feb 2014 #19
kick cally Feb 2014 #21
I'll tell you flat out hotrod0808 Feb 2014 #24
excellent post, thank you steve2470 Feb 2014 #25
Actually phil89 Feb 2014 #74
Thanks for this, steve. Cha Feb 2014 #26
my pleasure, Cha ! steve2470 Feb 2014 #27
Yes, I know all about Cha Feb 2014 #28
.... steve2470 Feb 2014 #50
I am a 46 year old alcoholic with just short of 14 years sober dsc Feb 2014 #29
What you said. n/t Flying Squirrel Feb 2014 #34
It Just Has To Be So Hard To Grapple With colsohlibgal Feb 2014 #30
kick nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #37
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #38
"Science is slippery in all areas" ? TBF Feb 2014 #39
Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #40
Whether to call Pluto a planet or a dwarf planet is just a matter of classification muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #42
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #43
"crazier than the average person anyway" steve2470 Feb 2014 #45
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #46
many of us are mental health professionals, yes steve2470 Feb 2014 #48
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #51
I suggest you go to your local community college and take a science class Blecht Feb 2014 #60
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #62
What do you think about gravity? Fact? Or "nothing but" a theory? (nt) Heidi Feb 2014 #68
Exactly...nt SidDithers Feb 2014 #41
Well, at least in all the interesting areas... MineralMan Feb 2014 #49
Were you "slippery" in math? jeff47 Feb 2014 #53
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #54
I'm not seeking to be convinced. I'm seeking to understand. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2014 #58
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #61
Why? jeff47 Feb 2014 #69
the number 19 kinda jumped out at me hfojvt Feb 2014 #44
Serotonin is another neurotransmitter involved nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #47
Addiction is usually a vast cluster of inter-related avoidance strategies. sibelian Feb 2014 #52
Thank you for the thoughtful post n/t TroglodyteScholar Feb 2014 #56
Seth Mnookin gets all the credit :) nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #59
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #57
This won't go down well get the red out Feb 2014 #64
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2014 #65
Because I suffer from depression get the red out Feb 2014 #66
best wishes to you with that illness also steve2470 Feb 2014 #70
This part pipi_k Feb 2014 #71
correct ! nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #73
last bump nt steve2470 Feb 2014 #75
I used to be an alcoholic. Quit for three months. Now a social drinker. Th1onein Feb 2014 #77

Lesleymo

(236 posts)
1. Ugh. Yes.
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 07:59 PM
Feb 2014

My son is an addict. He's currently in a state prison in Georgia. He'll be out in May and he has all the good intentions and high hopes in the world. I have hope for him as well. But I'm terrified at the same time. Hoffman's death reminded me that addiction is relentless. I hope and pray that my son is strong enough to recover forever. But still ... I'm terrified.

Auntie Bush

(17,528 posts)
63. I'm so sorry Lesleymo...Keep a stiff upper lip and have faith in your son.
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:15 PM
Feb 2014

Think positive. Vision him mowing the lawn next Summer. Good luck!

Warpy

(111,237 posts)
4. All true, unfortunately
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 08:02 PM
Feb 2014

AA is big on anecdata and I have to admit that the only family members and acquaintances I know who have gotten sober and stayed that way have done it with AA's help. It's not just the program, which tends to be hokey and hyper religious, it's the support system that a sponsor and other sober people can give. In addition, they're correct that an addict is always an addict and if they slip, they'll be back just where they started. Addiction is like any other chronic illness, you have to take care of it properly if you want to live.

"One is too many and a thousand isn't enough" describes addiction to a T, the addict taking one dose of his drug of choice and then compulsively using, chasing an elusive high, limited only by unconsciousness or death.

Addiction and dependency are two different animals, but this post is about addiction, defined by cravings and compulsive overuse. Dependent people have an "off" switch. Addicts don't.

johnp3907

(3,730 posts)
11. My sister has done great with AA, my brother has not.
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:21 PM
Feb 2014

I always wonder if it's their different personalities. She's the outgoing people person type, and he's the snide cynical type.

Warpy

(111,237 posts)
12. They call it hitting bottom
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:22 PM
Feb 2014

but you've got to have a bombed out landscape of a life before you're desperate enough to ask for and receive help reconstructing it. He's likely not there yet. He might never get there. Some people do die from this disease. People on both sides of my own family did.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
32. I'm the snide cynical type
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 12:32 AM
Feb 2014

Yet AA managed to help me. You just never know who's gonna make it and who isn't.

Warpy

(111,237 posts)
76. Right, and I'm the snide, cynical type
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 08:55 PM
Feb 2014

who went to meetings in the "you people are no fun, you don't drink" sister organization to learn how to cope with an alcoholic spouse.

I left and he got sober 2 years later when it finally dawned on him that his problems had stuck around after I left and he did it through inpatient rehab followed by AA.

Yeah, you just never know.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
31. I have a family full of addicts
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 12:22 AM
Feb 2014

Some of my observations....

My mom's side has had their problems but they have mostly been aunts uncles and cousins.

* My great grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandma used to take him booze when he was in a nursing home. She never developed and problems with substance abuse.

* I have an uncle who, if I saw in the AM would shake until he got bourbon in his coffee. He quit smoking and drinking at the same time 20 yrs. ago. He has never been to an AA meeting and is sober to this day.

* One aunt was an alcoholic and found her way to sobriety temporarily. The she started having medical problems and addicted to pain killers and. Tried AA a couple of times and was never able to make it work.

* Another aunt married a sort of low key, high functioning alcoholic. One managed to follow in his footsteps. Out of seven, 2 went to prison for substance abuse related offenses. And, 1 has gotten sober. He has community support along with AA. The other has relapsed, and sort of goes back and forth. Another one was homeless, and died on the street.
A number of their children seem to have some trouble. He was the only one who tried AA

* Another aunt has revolving addictions (alcohol, food, and gambling) which she manages to maintain because she has the resources. AA is no use

* A cousin who nearly died from Cirrhosis and has quit started gambling soon after and wound up stealing and burning a lot of bridges in the family. She is not aware of her addiction.

* One of my sisters stopped drinking and has been active with AA. She has done very well.

* Another attended a few meetings and has been sober since. She can't kick cigarettes and probably has some trouble with weed.
I worry a little about 2 others.



The other side of my family. Wow....

* My dad sopped after nearly dying from alcoholic pancreatitis, but has since relapsed. My dad does not see a problem with his behavior when he's drinking. Both of his parents, and most aunts, uncles and cousins are alcoholics. Of 5 siblings, one is not and never has even drank socially. Of those extended family members, I can't think of one who has even tried AA.

_______

I think that both of your descriptions are present in my observations. I also think there is probably a lot of overlap. If nothing else, it shows how complex and difficult it is to understand. I think AA provides mixed results.

I have friends who have gotten sober who have also had a range of experiences. In conversations with them, statements like "I don't understand" are usually met with "that's because your not an alcoholic."

Is what you call dependency a situation where a person has minor withdrawal symptoms when they stop taking pain killers after a broken leg or something, but they think they have a flu virus or something?

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
5. Did a doctor prescribe pain pills to him?
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 08:32 PM
Feb 2014

Thought they wouldn't do that if one had a history of addiction?

cally

(21,593 posts)
9. They will. Most doctors know very little about addiction
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:13 PM
Feb 2014

I've told Doctors not to prescribe any painkillers and then have them offered to me or another time as I'm leaving told there is a prescription waiting for me whenever I want to fill it. Another time, told that I could take cough syrup with alcohol because it wouldn't be a problem short term. Most just do not get it.

AndyTiedye

(23,500 posts)
67. It is Actually Much Worse than That
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:31 PM
Feb 2014

A friend of mine was not only being refused pain meds, the doctors completely blew her off, for FOUR YEARS.
Finally when she found a doc who would take her seriously she was diagnosed. She has ovarian cancer!
Now she is getting the care she needs for that, and got some pain medication, but not enough,
they let her go into withdrawal from the meds they gave her before they got around to prescribing more.

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
72. Dear GOD
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:44 PM
Feb 2014

I knew that people bragged in meetings about never taking pain meds, and going through horrible pain, but my God. I am a recovering alcoholic, and thankfully my doctors have given me pain meds after a couple of surgeries I have had with zero issues. What has been done to your friend should be considered malpractice.

I know someone in recovery who had kind of the opposite form of malpractice. He had a reaction to doctor prescribed medication that cannot screw you up or addict you. He became very sick, and in the emergency room the nurse practitioner seeing him was convinced that he had abused that medication rather than had a reaction to it. They kept him in the hospital and the next day they tried to give him a dose of the same medication that had almost knocked out his kidneys. He refused it and thankfully the Nephrologist took over his case and told the hospital staff they were idiots and that he had been prescribed medication improperly.

WestSeattle2

(1,730 posts)
7. Drug addiction is horrible. My thoughts go out to all those, and their
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:07 PM
Feb 2014

families that fight this battle on a daily basis.

One day at a time.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
18. Fair 'nuff...
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:03 PM
Feb 2014

Then I don't know why he buys it then. Towards the top of the list of defining characteristics of addicts is the word "liar" in big bold letters...

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
33. That word is there
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 12:33 AM
Feb 2014

because they lie to themselves. That's why on an AA coin it says "To Thine Own Self Be True"

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
14. Why are you so convinced he didn't? Oh yeah, you don't like that "innocent until proven guilty"?
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:51 PM
Feb 2014

gets in your way.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
15. I can believe it he made it 23 years
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:55 PM
Feb 2014

Yeah, he could have lied to everyone and secretly relapsed one night on alcohol or another drug and never told anyone. Technically, that's a relapse. He might not have considered it a relapse or a "slip". Plenty of people do honestly make it many years in recovery with no relapses.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
20. Very possible...
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:05 PM
Feb 2014

My question was about declaring it as fact...

I think it would be more accurate to say something along the lines of "Hoffman claimed that he had been sober for 23 years..." etc.. etc...

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
36. Apparently when he was not sober, it was quite obvious.
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 08:34 AM
Feb 2014

Addicts can't usually get "just a little" high.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
13. WHAT A LOSS ON SO MANY LEVELS
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:25 PM
Feb 2014

It is very hard to accept. I really feel badly for his children and his partner.

Sam

MarianJack

(10,237 posts)
19. Last year,after 23 years in recovery,...
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:04 PM
Feb 2014

...I smelled an empty beer bottle of my wife's. I didn't drink that night, but I DID struggle. Addiction is a disease that NEVER goes away. You must ALWAYS be onyour guard.

PEACE!

hotrod0808

(323 posts)
24. I'll tell you flat out
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:13 PM
Feb 2014

how it is for an alcoholic/addict: Long-term sobriety is never a guarantee. All an addict has is today. Just stay sober today. The addict must seek support. He or she cannot do it themselves. They are suggested to join groups and be active, seeking a sponsor as a guide through The Twelve Steps. The must have the humility to know that they are not the center of the universe, and are therefore not in charge. AA/NA are full of Christians and they are God-oriented programs. Yet, and addict does not have to automatically convert to Christianity upon entry into the program. It is possible to be an Atheist and be a member. The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking/using.

As a member of AA for several 24 hours, all I know is that a program of recovery saved my life. It only continues to save my life if I continue to practice the principles of the program in all my affairs. Sadly, I have heard several stories of those in recovery who had decades of sobriety who used again, and their story was all the same: they ceased to practice their daily program of recovery.

I grieve Mr. Hoffman, and never met him. I grieve every addict or alcoholic who has died from their disease. I will not judge him and I will not belittle him. My only hope from this horrible story is that those who are sick and suffering from this disease may use this as a catalyst to seek help themselves.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
25. excellent post, thank you
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:17 PM
Feb 2014

Some people for their own uniquely personal reasons cannot accept NA or AA. For those people there's Rational Recovery and other groups whose names escape me right now. You are correct, however, that you can be an atheist/agnostic/non-Christian and use AA or NA. You're so right about not doing it alone.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
74. Actually
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 07:39 PM
Feb 2014

There are other approaches besides the outdated AA model. Rational Recovery/SMART Recovery, for example. Neither of which support the idea of higher power/gods or tell people they are powerless, etc. In fact some people DO quit on their own. I don't understand the need for some people to make the unsupportable claims that they MUST have help from other people or work a 12 step program to be successful.

Cha

(297,102 posts)
26. Thanks for this, steve.
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:22 PM
Feb 2014

So sad.. I didn't know the history of PSH.

Addiction is a scary scary thing. So many pitfalls.. and Why some people are pre-disposed and lucky others are not.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
27. my pleasure, Cha !
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:25 PM
Feb 2014

It's not fair that most of us can have one beer or drink and walk away. The alcoholic cannot do that. Addiction is a lifetime illness and very scary. It's true that you can be sober for many years, relapse and die from that relapse (or at minimum be plunged back into active addiction).

dsc

(52,155 posts)
29. I am a 46 year old alcoholic with just short of 14 years sober
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:52 PM
Feb 2014

no kidding this death is scary. I know that just one drink could put me back to where I was fourteen years ago. RIP Mr. Hoffman.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
30. It Just Has To Be So Hard To Grapple With
Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:56 PM
Feb 2014

I wish the best for all those dealing with addiction with themselves or family members.

I drank quite a bit until I just really tapered off in my mid 30's after a 15 month trip into the really fast lane. I still drink from time to time, here and there, but the vast majority of days I don't, Diet Pepsi and coffee is it for me most of these days now.

I dabbled in a few drugs in my 20's, did LSD once did not like it, coke once did not like it or even get the appeal. I think I'm a pretty non addictive type but that said knew I should avoid opiates since I sure liked them when given to me in the hospital a time or two. The appeal of negative anxiety is indeed strong.

Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Response to TBF (Reply #39)

muriel_volestrangler

(101,295 posts)
42. Whether to call Pluto a planet or a dwarf planet is just a matter of classification
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 01:02 PM
Feb 2014

As more bodies beyond Neptune were discovered, it became clear there was some use in having a separate class into which they fall. No fact about Pluto was revised. Science gets rechecked, and that sometimes does mean revising a 'fact', but that doesn't mean "it's just speculation". Scientific theories have remarkable predictive power.

It's strange that you complain that Psychology 101 wasn't about disorders, because that would be looking at psychology for nothing more than molecular structures and chemical reactions. A typical Psychology 101 course looks at emotion, personality and other aspects of psychology that are not just studies of molecular structures and chemical reactions.

Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #42)

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
45. "crazier than the average person anyway"
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 01:24 PM
Feb 2014

Congrats for offending a significant subset of DU. Very debatable assertion there.

Response to steve2470 (Reply #45)

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
48. many of us are mental health professionals, yes
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 01:30 PM
Feb 2014

Social workers, counselors, addiction counselors, therapists, you name it. Some of us used to work in the field. Some of us want to work in the field.

Response to steve2470 (Reply #48)

Blecht

(3,803 posts)
60. I suggest you go to your local community college and take a science class
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:11 PM
Feb 2014

Then you can avoid the embarrassment of saying things like this:

Science is nothing but a set of THEORIES. It's just speculation.


English is a complex language in which context plays a large role in determining the meaning of the words used. You are not using the correct meaning of the word "theory" in the context of the scientific method in your statement. A science class can help you understand how silly it is to write what you did.

Response to Blecht (Reply #60)

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
53. Were you "slippery" in math?
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:03 PM
Feb 2014

There was a time you did not know how to do addition. Does the fact you can add 27 and 63 now mean you were slippery?

Once, you didn't know how to do division. Does the fact you can divide 15 by 5 now mean you were slippery?

Mysticism in any form is consistent only because its answers are in a book pulled from someone's imagination. People pretend that book has never changed in order to create the illusion of consistency.

Science changes as we learn more about the world around us. Inconsistency is it's strength.

Response to jeff47 (Reply #53)

Response to jeff47 (Reply #58)

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
69. Why?
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:36 PM
Feb 2014
What animated Fred? His consciousness survives death!

Why?

Couldn't his consciousness have also died? Why couldn't the "spark" that "animated Fred" go out with his death?

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
44. the number 19 kinda jumped out at me
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 01:20 PM
Feb 2014

this writer was a recovering addict by the time he/she was 19.

According to one guy I heard - it is about dopamine and the developing brain.

That you need a certain level of dopamine in your brain just to "feel" normal. He claimed research shows that the brains of young addicts are permanently altered. Altered in such a way that they will always need an ELEVATED level of dopamine just to feel normal.

A level that is readily obtained by drug use.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
52. Addiction is usually a vast cluster of inter-related avoidance strategies.
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:02 PM
Feb 2014

The quick fix is usually chosen because there is no meaningful living process to take it's place.

The necessity for meaningful existence is rarely included in conversations around addition of any kind, which is very sad.

Response to steve2470 (Original post)

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
64. This won't go down well
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:19 PM
Feb 2014

But I haven't drank in a long time, and still consider myself a member of a 12-step fellowship; but we have got to start moving past the black and white view of "recovery" because it is killing people. In a 12-step fellowship abstinence is the most important, followed closely by "emotional sobriety"; after a long period of abstinence who do you turn to when your life gets hard without being considered to be someone who "isn't working the steps"? A person gets really isolated after years of sobriety and trying to work the steps right and say the right things in meetings. I didn't drink but I started having non-stop suicidal thoughts after 17 years without a drink. I didn't really know who to turn to, I had heard so many people in the 12-step fellowship say medication for mental health was a crutch, or was "alcohol in pill form", but times were hard. Finally I sought help for the damned depression that had plagued me since I was 9 years old and it was like waking up after a long, bad dream.

The idea that is planted in people's heads in many 12-step meetings, that they have to do the steps just right and constantly go to meetings or they will drink/drug and DIE can be a self-fulling prophecy. If a person picks up a drink or a drug they've lost EVERYTHING that second, they go from someone to pitiful if they have any time in their fellowship, so they might as well tie on a damn good one, right?

If our society can't look beyond 12 step to help people there will just be more and more death with people saying that the person "didn't want it", or "couldn't get it", or "that dead guy in the coffin hadn't hit bottom yet". We have to get off our puritanical asses and look for other solutions. I am grateful to the fellowship that got me sober, but I've seen a hell of a lot of death along the way, and I can tell you it is still fully planted in my mind that I would rather fucking OFF MYSELF than walk back into a room full of smug looks with my head hung low telling them that I have failed and am now nothing and have LOST 21 YEARS. Do we really do that? Lose 21 hard fought years on this planet? Addiction and recovery both have screwed me up, and I am trying to sort it out properly.

The people that fight the hardest against any mention of new recovery methods are the treatment centers and those employed by them. So often these centers employ people whose main qualification is being sober in a 12 step fellowship. These folks work cheaper than someone with actual credentials. The treatment centers are either nearly impossible to get into or extremely expensive. They don't want change, change threatens their $$$.

Every time I have read about a new method or idea to treat addiction it is recovering people who scream the loudest against it. Even Bill Wilson, co-founder of AA said "we know but a little.....more will be revealed" but this isn't put into practice very well or very often. Surely the most we will ever know about treating addiction didn't begin and end in 1938?

Response to get the red out (Reply #64)

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
66. Because I suffer from depression
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:29 PM
Feb 2014

Depression is a disease, my Mother has it, my Grandmother had it, my Grandfather on the other side had it, my Aunt had it, my Uncle had it. My brain isn't wired right.

I was going through a rough time in my personal life and could confide in very few people. It brought the depression to the surface in a very bad way. I can tell you that taking inventory and declaring what a piece of shit I was and how I was failing my 12-step fellowship of choice wasn't going to solve it either.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
71. This part
Wed Feb 5, 2014, 02:44 PM
Feb 2014
Alcoholics Anonymous, the most widely used...(There’s also the fact that its core principle—that members never publicly acknowledge their presence in the program—


Is not true.

Its core principle is anonymity for other people.



People are always free to self identify as being AA members if they want. If that were not true, then we wouldn't see members driving around in cars with bumper stickers that say, "I'm a friend of Bill W"

I've seen obits where that same sentiment is mentioned..."He was a friend of Bill W"

What they cannot do is disclose the membership of anyone else unless they have that person's permission.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
77. I used to be an alcoholic. Quit for three months. Now a social drinker.
Thu Feb 6, 2014, 03:39 AM
Feb 2014

I have a drink, now, about once a year. Sometimes two drinks a year, if things are stressful. I don't buy into the AA crap. Once your liver heals and you can store sugars as glycogen again, I think you're cured from that craving for alcohol.

I have no idea about drugs, other than alcohol, though.

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