Some people found homosexuality so objectionable and "creepy" that...

[Bonobo]

They were absolutely SURE that homosexuals MUST be more likely to be pedophiles. They were homophobic assholes.

http://www.wnd.com/2002/04/13722/

Dr. Judith Reisman was one of them.

Many people find the idea of a middle aged person sleeping with a younger sexually mature person "creepy" and that is their choice. But now we are supposed to believe that this makes THEM more likely to be pedophiles who rape pre-pubescent children.

Does this represent similar thinking? To me, yes, it does. It is a personal dislike based on a moral judgment elevated to the worst form of sexual exploitation that can be conceived of -and it is not logical nor does it survive a reasonable examination.

Pedophiles are people that are sexually excited by pre-pubescent children and act upon it. That is the definition and it is not a "soft" definition.

[dionysus]

1. .

[zappaman]

2. I read here once

That watching pornography eventually leads to pedophilia.
Face it...this place is full of great science!

[Behind the Aegis]

3. I have no fucking clue what is happening.

But it seems we have more "dictionaries" coming out of the woodwork: pedophiles are men who date younger/teenaged women; anti-Semitism is discrimination against Semites; "heterophobia" (sorry, that still makes me giggle) is standing up to homophobia/homophobes (same: thugs, bullies); and, liking a Coke commercial is akin to being a sheep enamored by a commercial which is the equivalent of Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will."



But, I really have no idea what this current outrage is. I obviously missed something.

[1000words]

6. You're not missing much

Just another day at Junior High Underground

[Crunchy Frog]

160. No, anti-semitism is criticism of Israeli government policy.

And I believe that sleeping with a much younger person who is also the daughter of your SO and the sister of your children is a little more damning than just sleeping with much younger people.

So I'm pretty sure that in your eyes that would make me a raging bigot.

[whistler162]

165. Quiet month at the Presidential poutrage fest!

[BainsBane]

176. Woody Allen's daughter wrote an open letter in the NYTimes

recounting her abuse by her father up until age 7, when the courts denied Allen visitation. If true, which I have no reason to believe it is not, that is indeed pedophilia. As for the OP, that's far beyond my comprehension.

[kcr]

4. Wow. We really are only one step away from accusing anyone who thinks Allen is guilty

of being a homophobe, aren't we?

[bettyellen]

10. Oh, he IS there. someone directly accused SKittles- he just hijacked the idea.

[DirkGently]

5. That analogy is wildly off-base.

*Abusers* are people who target and exploit the young and vulnerable, such as a member of their own household, and pervert family dynamics and the inherent power differential between adults and children for their own gratification.

I have no interest in the ridiculous DU battle to convict or pardon Woody Allen based on extrinsic evidence. But the guy does like fucking sub-adult females who know him as a father figure.

The vast distinction you are trying paint between a middle-aged man who would become sexually infatuated with his teenaged stepdaughter and one who would abuse a "pre-pubescent child" is not as broad as you suggest.

To compare the situation to people conflating homosexuality and child abuse is nonsensical. The "ick" factor of Allen coupling with his wife's adopted daughter is not aesthetic prejudice or prudery. It looks like both a grotesque abuse of the family dynamic and the exploitation of a very young person who by all accounts was not a sexually active adult when things began by a much older one in a postion to take advantage of a huge differential in power, experience and psychological maturity.

It raises real ethical questions and suggests Allen is willing to cross both parent-child and age boundaries most of our culture observes not out out of superstition or intolerance, but because of actual perceived harms.

[Bonobo]

7. "the guy does like fucking sub-adult females who know him as a father figure."

A 7 year old is a sub-adult.

An 18 year old is not.

That's sort of the point.

And no, the analogy is wildly ON-BASE because it is the conflating of one behavior one may find morally objectionable (from a prudish but not legal POV) with one that is illegal, immoral and heinous in ways that having nothing to do with the first.

[Ms. Toad]

159. An 18 year old may not be -

But Soon Yi was 10 years old when Woody Allen came into her life - as a father figure. That dynamic is just a hair's breadth away from what he is accused of with Dylan.

The leap from sexual attraction to others of the same gender to pedophilia is a much greater leap than the leap from an admitted sexual relationship with a barely adult person for whom he served in a parental role - and of whom he took naked pictures as a child - to the accusations that he sexually molested a sibling of that person while she was still a child.

[DirkGently]

162. The step-daughter from age 10 is fair game at 18?

Yikes. Would you be comfortable learning your "adult" child began a sexual relationship with an adult care-giver at 18-on-the button? You wouldn't perceive a likelihood of grooming or coercion, or a betrayal of the family dynamic?

C'mon.

First, that's a pretty breezy assumption even on the "barely legal" rationale. The healthy, respectful familial relationship continued until exactly the moment when legal adulthood arose?

You don't acknowledge any conflict or potential for abuse where an adult in a caregiver role from the time a child is 10 takes a sexual interest, so long as the legality clock has ticked past the theoretical age of maturity?

And you think any concerns about exploitation by an adult of someone who was legally a child minutes earlier should be dismissed as analagous to a purely traditionalist, prudish reaction to same-sex relationships between consenting, unrelated adults?

Okay, but I think you're in a small minority who'd be unperturbed to find your child's aged nanny or uncle bedding them the moment they reached the age of majority. A lot of people would perceive abuse and exploitation there, and not because they're prudes or homophobes.

[seabeyond]

167. especially the grooming in the parental role. and likelihood that he waited until the

magical acceptable age.

another excellent post. i would really hope that those defending this behavior would take a moment to read.... and more importantly, think. we are talking the health of our kids.

[R B Garr]

169. Your posts are exactly right on, and notice how they've gone unanswered

in favor of singling out several posters for the usual mind games. It's just too obvious what is going on here. There's a group that likes to overly parse things down so they finally get to a perceived "gotcha" moment and then they all swoop in for the high-fives. It's hard to believe that they have such a hard time grasping the most basic of written ideas. Really hard to believe.

[seabeyond]

171. +1. nt

[bettyellen]

8. Shameful post- did you get the idea from whatever ass accused Skittles of being a homophobe?

Most people find his betrayal of his long time partner and co-parent - with her own daughter in her own home- super fucking creepy.

And you're just going to have to get used to it.
That bell isn't something that can get unrung.

[sabrina 1]

13. Why do people care so much about these hollywood stars and their lives?

No one has any clue what went on between those two. We know both of them were, by most people's standard, 'different' shall we say. Loyalty to partners doesn't enter into their lives. SHE was a 19 yr old with a 50 something old husband herself. Maybe a role model to her own daughter. That daughter was her first, or was it second husband's, Andre Previn's daughter, not Woody Allen's. IT does get confusing. SHE now claims the son Allen thought was his, is Frank Sinatra's. Speaking of deceptions, so I guess she must have betrayed him also with her old husband, unless she's not telling the truth.

Seems that's the way things are in Hollywood, and no one seems to get out unscathed.

If she lied about who the father of her son was, but no, women never lie about these things.

Anyhow, it's none of OUR business and they will all make lots of money from the books they write about all of it. Maybe they are all even part of the story. Who knows, who cares.

[bettyellen]

14. Good question- why do you write so many very long impassioned posts about it?

[sabrina 1]

25. I'm fascinated by the fascination and wondering why we can't get this kind

of interest in ending the drone wars where children really are being horrifically abused, killed, maimed, traumatized eg. Wondering if there is a way to 'sex it up' as someone infamous once said.

I have written tens of thousands of long passionate comments, and hundreds of OPs on torture, on war, on economic equality, on Civil Rights, on Wall St Corruption, on War Criminals on many blogs, but never seem to get the kind of interest these movie stars and their problems get.

By comparison, I've written only about five or six comments on this subject, yet THESE ARE THE ONES YOU REMEMBER.

See, you make you point. You don't recall the thousands of comments I've made here on human rights issues, on the poor, on torture, etc. but you remember the few I've made on this issue.

Thanks, that confirms my opinion that we have to use 'sex' or some form of sensationalism, to try to stop the horrendous abuses of our government around the world to innocent people with no sign of them stopping. It''s not enough to write about children being sodomized in US Controlled prisons in their own country. Or the rape of women by US troops in gulags under their control, in countries they occupy illegally. Or the killing of children by drone, where their parents cannot even recognize the pieces that are left.

But talk about some movie stars accusing someone they are fighting with over custody of molesting one child twenty years ago and people will go to bat for them, without even knowing if it's true.

I will have to think about this and how it can be applied to try to save the children we will be killing tomorrow or next week or next year, to get the same level of interest going.

[bettyellen]

29. I'm not fascinated enough to read all that, but thanks anyway!

[Bonobo]

50. LOL.

It's like 50 words.

"all that".

[polly7]

168. Sabrina has always written many of the most fascinating posts

on all of DU (I'm a shameless groupie), passionate about human rights issues, equality, humanitarianism ... all those things that make this a great place to read and learn from. Bit of a pity you've missed out .... but c'est la vie.

[bettyellen]

170. the last thing I heard her post was nastily admonishing someone should not have l kids when the

poster admitted that they LATER, after having kids, realized that being a FT SAHM was not making her happy.
It was, to be kind- a nutty, pointless suggestion- and rude to boot.

[IdaBriggs]

157. It is important because it means that even being the daughter of someone rich and famous --

won't protect you from incest and sexual abuse.

(Believe it or not, this really is about a woman - Dylan - who says she was sexually abused by her father. BONUS: he used to take naked pictures of her sister while the sister was a teenager, who had a body that looks pre-adolescent.)

This story is also about how impossible it is to find justice if you are a victim of these crimes, even if your MOTHER is rich and famous, and the guy commits acts that are immoral and inappropriate with your "older" sister.

Now, if this happens to the children of the "rich and famous" (and pretend you believe her for one second, just like MAYBE you believe the boys who were raped FOR YEARS by Sandusky, but weren't believed FOR YEARS), what is happening to the rest of the children whose stories don't make the front pages?

See: "13 year olds kidnapped for prostitution for Super Bowl" stories for answers....

[Bonobo]

15. Why no, I didn't.

Shameful, eh.

Pretty quick with that phrase.

[bettyellen]

18. It would have been quicker if I didn't have to choke down the vomit the OP induced.

You really don't understand that this twisted denial of the creep factor is pretty fucking creepy in and of itself?
Sad, and my skin crawled reading it.

[Bonobo]

19. "Creep". There we go again.

The word that gets tossed around when you want to accuse someone of something but don't have the guts to do so.

Maybe you need to see a dermatologist if your skin crawls so easily.

[bettyellen]

21. actually I expressed my feelings fully-That was super fucking creepy to read. Sad you need to accuse

good DUers of being like homophobes. That is a very sleazy tactic. Very sleazy.

And to clarify- such impassioned defense of what is widely condemmed as creepy behavior- is in itself very creepy. Hard to wash that stench off.

[Bonobo]

30. Were you "creeped out" by Mia Farrow having relationships with Sinatra and Previn?

Or is it only creepy the other way around?

[bettyellen]

84. we were discussing the creepy OP, and you accusing DUers of homophobia....

so it's no wonder you want to change the subject, but I will stay OT, thanks.

[Bonobo]

86. I did not accuse DU'ers of homophobia.

You don't have very good reading skills if you think I did that.

[seaglass]

154. + 1000. This OP is so NOT surprising. n/t

[sabrina 1]

37. 'Most people'? I think most people are busy trying to feed their children

worrying about a mother with cancer, a child with cancer, lime my brother, a daughter with a life threatening desease.

And worried about a hollywood star who lied about who the father of her son was, meaning she too 'betrayed' her partner, if she is now telling the truth, but who knows what the truth is in Hollywood?

That is probably my sixth comment on this. As I said I have written over forty thousand on this forum and don't know how many other forums, on Children Being Tortured and Women raped, by our military personnel hoping to get the kind of passionate interest in stopping it all, not twenty years ago, NOW because it is still going on. Because we know for sure about the thousands of children our humanitarian bombs have killed, just ended their lives, and how many others who are maimed for life, who survived.

Just can't get this kind of interest in those actual, proven cases of abuse.

[quinnox]

9. It has gotten to the point of hysteria. Allen is now apparently a serial child molester because he

had the audacity to tell a joke, a natural thing for a comedian to do.

Said joke was deeply analyzed and determined to be indisputable proof that Allen is guilty, and has been victimizing thousands of underage girls over his lifetime.

[kcr]

11. "determined to be indisputable proof that Allen is guilty"

Way to twist. Just like the OP.

[JVS]

158. I've heard him tell a similar joke about a sexual relationship with Roy Roger's horse.

[pnwmom]

12. Is this your answer to Dylan Farrow's anguished statement that Allen molested her when she was 7?

What on earth does this have to do with gay people?

[Bonobo]

16. I think that is explained in the OP.

It has nothing to do with gay people itself.

But there is an analogy between homophobes connecting homosexuality with pedophilia that is made.

Does that answer your question?

[pnwmom]

91. I think that is a pretty huge leap. No one is accusing movie directors of being pedophiles. n/t

[bettyellen]

17. this is what they spend time on in the mens group, LOL. I have no doubt you will find them hashing

out a sure fire strategy that will magically eliminate the creep factor in betraying your LT partner with her own daughter.
And the creep factor of OPs like this. Yeah.... not going to happen, fellas. It is what it is. Creepy.

[Bonobo]

20. Say what you want, but dating a younger woman does not make one a pedophile.

But you want to pretend that it does.

And that is seriously fucked up. Seriously.

[bettyellen]

26. I never said that- bless your confused heart. Stop lying about what I said.

[pnwmom]

92. Your father dating your 19 year old SISTER is what's creepy. Ask Ronan and Dylan. n/t

[Bonobo]

95. Not really saying it isn't creepy...

I am saying it has no relationship with pedophilia.

[pnwmom]

100. It has to do with transgressing sexual boundaries. Allen doesn't seem to think they exist.

Soon-Yi and Dylan were both sisters of Ronan. It was wrong for Ronan's father to become sexually involved with Soon-Yi. By comparison, of course, it would be even worse to molest Dylan -- but that doesn't make what he did with Soon-Yi okay. He shouldn't have gotten involved with ANY of his children's siblings.

[Bonobo]

111. Being interested in pre-pubescents is a very specific affliction/predilection

It is not a "boundaries" thing.

It is something else, whatever it is.

[pnwmom]

117. The incest taboo and the taboo against molesting children are both "boundary things."

[Bonobo]

124. But people not interested in little children are not interested in little children. nt

[pnwmom]

128. Most child molesters are NOT exclusively attracted to children.

The fact that he was involved with a 19 year old does not preclude his having been involved with a 7 year old.

http://www.doc.state.mn.us/pages/files/4313/8695/0043/05-09Characteristics_newlogo.pdf

Adults who molest children can generally be divided into two groups. A small percent- age may have a lifelong, exclusive attraction to children, and have little or no emo- tional interest in adult partners. The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims. Further, adults who molest children of their same gender (i.e., an adult male who molests a boy) are not necessarily homosexual.

[Bonobo]

131. You're right. Absolutely.

All I am saying is that it does not suggest it either.

[quinnox]

22. One of the common misconceptions is Soon-Yi was the daughter of Mia

That is false. She was adopted.

[kcr]

24. That's what adopted means n/t

[quinnox]

28. "betraying your LT partner with her own daughter."

"her own daughter" strongly gives the impression of a biological link, I see nowhere in the post I replied to that says "adopted".

[kcr]

31. What does it matter? She's her daughter.

Who cares if there's a biological link? Do you think partners are free to screw the children of their partners if they're adopted? That's sick.

[Bonobo]

35. Yes, okay, now tell me how it relates to pedophilia. THAT is the only thing that matters.

And it is where you make not one bit of sense. Logically speaking, that is.

[kcr]

62. No, you are the only one who wants to erase all the details

and pretend it's only about being attracted to younger women.

[Bonobo]

63. Huh?

No, I'm not erasing anything.

But there are no details that point irrefutably to a conclusion.

However, MANY, MANY people are using the Soon-Yi thing to go: Creepy> Pedophilia likely!

Don't deny it.

[kcr]

67. Yes you are.

You keep repeating over and over that attraction to young women doesn't equal pedophilia. When absolutely no one at all is making that point. I guess one can argue that no single detail points irrefutably to a conclusion. But all the points taken together make a reasonable argument. It is not an unreasonable position to think that Dylan Farrow may be telling the truth. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[Bonobo]

70. So you are denying that people have been saying that they always knew he was "creepy"

because of the Soon-Yi thing and using that to springboard the pedophilia accusation!?

Come on, get real! I could overwhelm you with posts that show precisely that connection even if no one says it explicitly.

Don't waste my time by denying the obvious.

[kcr]

76. No, I'm not denying it. Because it isn't just about being attracted to young women!

But yes, imagine people conflating the two. His own adopted daughter he was being accused of molesting, and the teenage adopted daughter of his partner he's screwing that he's known since she was ten. What WERE people thinking!? People were absolutely were creeped out about it at the time, because it was a scandal at the time as well. She was the child of his long term partner. They were together for a decade, and she was ten frigging years old when they met. While also accused of molesting his own adopted daughter. Your ridiculous need to turn it into nothing more than a ho hum run of the mill attraction to a younger woman is ludicrous as it is.

[Bonobo]

77. Yes, but to get there, now you have to pretend that Soon-Yi was not a grown woman but a 10 year old.

So there is no connection and making up facts out of WHOLE CLOTH is the only way to make one.

You are literally MAKING SHIT UP.

My cat does a similar thing. After she makes a smelly crap, she turns around and covers it up.

[kcr]

78. No. You don't have to.

Most people don't start having sexual relationships with the children of their partners when they become teenagers. For good reason. There's something seriously wrong with them when they do. You don't have to pretend they're still children to think that. No. No, no, no.

[bettyellen]

80. this is the part where he explains your feelings and opinions are all wrong.

that most women here at DU have no right to label him a creep.
Oh, too late- we already did.

[Bonobo]

83. No, call him creep all you want. But explain the connection with pedophilia.

THAT was where you pretended I was badgering you.

As opposed to you calling me a creep and me NEVER saying one personal attack against you.

[kcr]

101. No. That's where I explain to you

Wait a minute, where did I call you a creep? Don't think I did! I pretended what? Huh? YOu've got me mixed up with someone else. You're confused.

Thanks for giving me permission to call him a creep. What is the connection to pedophilia? Anyone' who'would start screwing their long term partner's kid , a kid they'd known since that child was ten, when that child became a teenager, that person had no normal boundaries with that child. That is the connection. That boundary was NEVER there. It wasn't healthy and normal and then all of a sudden, it disappeared and true love! No. And then an accusation of molestation with his adopted minor child comes out of the woodwork? But that didn't happen? Uh uh.

[Bonobo]

106. I will give you points for effort.

Sorry about the "creep" thing, I did confuse you with someone else.

So, let me see if I got this straight. You are now saying that because he knew her from the age of 10, that is the pedophilia connection. It is irrelevant that she was a mature woman when he got into a relationship with her because he KNEW her since she was 10. I give you points for effort but I still think that pedophiles are not attracted to mature women with hair and breasts and all that "nasty" stuff.
So where does THAT leave you? It's still the "icky" factor for you which is coloring your judgment of him to the extent that you can make the "leap" to pedophilia even though there really is no connection in terms of sexual behavior profiles.

[kcr]

110. Guess what. People who don't meet the full clinical definition of pedophile molest children

It happens all the time. And someone with clear boundary issues like Allen has? Seems to me that's a real candidate.

[Bonobo]

112. How would that not meet the full clinical definition of pedophile?

Sexual interest in children = pedophile. No?

[kcr]

114. Don't be obtuse

Sexual molestation of a child != sexual interest in children.

[Bonobo]

116. Sexual molestation of a child does not represent sexual interest in children?

I'm obtuse for thinking that only someone sexually interested in pre-pubescents would sexually molest them?

Really?

[kcr]

119. It doesn't represent only sexual interest in children. You are flat out wrong.

You are clinging to that in order to win an argument to smear DUers and anyone else who entertains the idea that Woody Allen could be guilty. Plenty of people who have molested children have dated, had sex with and even married adults.

[Bonobo]

121. Oh, I do not deny that and never did.

You said that someone who doesn't meet the clinical definition of pedophile could stlll be interested in molesting children and I responded -shocked-to THAT statement only.

I think we talked past each other there for a moment. I never meant to imply that there are not HIDDEN pedophiles.

But again, what I am saying is that the "creepy" factor of the Soon-Yi relationship is not and cannot be a factor in determining or judging whether Woody Allen is a pedophile.

I see no connection and I don't think you have made a good argument for one.

[kcr]

126. Maybe not directly. It isn't direct evidence. But as a character judgment? Sure it can.

Because of the boundary issues. Absolutely.

[Bonobo]

130. I will end it with this reiteration.

Boundaries have nothing to do with this kind of sexual predilection.

A pedophile is a pedophile. And someone without an interest in children sexually does not need boundaries.

So a lack of boundaries shows only a lack of boundaries. It has no bearing on illuminating a person's sexual predilections. At all.

[kcr]

132. Reiterate that all you want.

Not all sexual molesters are pedophiles. Maybe Woody Allen is limited to that predilection. You are making that assumption.

[kcr]

87. And that? Can't wrap my head around that.

I don't know how you can ignore that huge, glaring boundary issue.

[Bonobo]

90. Not ignoring it. Saying it has no relationship to being attracted sexually to children. nt

[kcr]

105. No relationship whatsoever.

Right. He meets Mia with her kids. Healthy boundaries with all of them. All normal, through the years, normal normal normal normal normal..bing! She's a teenager! Done! Like a turkey dinner, ready to go. Now it's true love! Oh no, no attraction whatsoever before that point. Normal family, nothing amiss. It's just coincidence there happens to be a molestation charge over there, totally by chance!

[Bonobo]

108. Well, that was kind of a funny read.

But besides the really vague boundary thing, I still say you cannot make a man who is such a sexual deviant as to molest pre-pubescent children EVEN if you establish that he had fucked up boundaries.

However, I have ZERO problem believing that it would piss of Mia so badly that she would do anything to destroy him.

Yup, that is EASY to believe.

Did you know that after you remember something the first time you are just remembering the first remembrance? And so on and so on and so on?

[bettyellen]

93. whole load of ignoring boundary issues going on.

Amazing how anyone thinks they can change someone gut, instinctual feelings about a situation I guess some may be goaded in to pretending to agree, just to get them to STFU, so then they y imagine their "logic" works. Ewww.

[Bonobo]

102. You think that's an answer? Seriously?

You said you didn't think there was a connection between someone having a relationship outside of their age range (even if you find it "icky&quot and pedophilia, didn't you?

So, what's the deal? Are you going back on that and saying that one "icky" factor makes all other "icky" factors likely?

I just don't see how that is different in terms of its logical weakness from the homophobe thinking that the behavior they find offensive MUST be somehow linkable to all other things they find offensive.

[bettyellen]

107. again, I said none of those things- i commented on what a shitty implication you made in the OP.

and then you put words in my mouth a few times, and badgered me. And then you did it again.
Ice? WTF?

[Bonobo]

109. Ice = spellcheck changing "icky" nt

[bettyellen]

113. Again- you seem to be responding to someone else. Or putting words in my mouth INSTEAD of

apologizing to DU for this POS OP likening DUers to homophobes.
Stop lying about what I have posted please.

[Bonobo]

115. I never lied about what you said.

And I never said DU'ers were like homophobes.

If you think that, you really need to think harder because it's wrong.

But more even than just being wrong, it's sort of wrong in a really stupid way. Stupid meaning unintelligent.

[bettyellen]

118. maybe you need to print it out and check.... at least three posts you just made up words

and put them in my mouth. Not cool at all. In fact it's total bullshit.

[Bonobo]

122. If it is true, I owe you an apology.

I do not believe it is true.

Are you talking about me saying that you called me a "creep"?

[kcr]

127. He did the same thing to me n/t

[Bonobo]

137. Err, I said that I made a mistake with you.

Are you okay?

[kcr]

139. Oh, Im sorry, I wasn't allowed to mention it to anyone else?

[Bonobo]

140. No, but you could have mentioned I made an honest mistake and admitted it.

Lots of people mistake that kind of thing on big long threads while making replies back and forth.

Few admit the error.

Why would you want to leave the impression that I did it on purpose and did not admit it?

[kcr]

144. "you can't get off the soon yi thing"

That's why.

[Bonobo]

146. Makes no sense, whatever. nt

[kcr]

148. Just mean it's the reason I wasn't feeling like being too nice

Get off the soon yi thing! Because it's not like it's what we're discussing or anything. And my comment about Soon Yi was particularly relevant in that subthread, so I felt your comment was rude.

[Bonobo]

81. Circular thinking. Wheeeeeeeeee!

This is fun!

So I still don't get it.

First you agree that there is no connection between having a relationship outside your age range and pedophilia and say there is much more to it.

Then I ask you what the connection is and you spout some made up stuff about how MAYBE Soon-Yi was 10.

I call you on that for making shit up and now you are back to square one doing EXACTLY what I said in the OP.

You are using a generalized "ice" factor for Woody to try to say there is a connection.

But there IS NO connection between having an inappropriate relationship with a young woman -even your GF's adopted daughter - and being a pedophile.

You are using the "ice" factor to smear and I think it is illogical, transparent and as stupid as the homophobic pedophile connection.

No, it does not make you homophobic in ANY way. I am making an analogy about the logical error.

[pnwmom]

97. Ask Quinnox. That's the person who thinks is matters that Soon-Yi was adopted.

You're right -- it makes no sense.

[bettyellen]

48. every adopted child I know is a son or daughter. so.... at least it wasn't incest, right?

is that your point?

[quinnox]

56. Part of it. Incest is a big deal

And yep, that would, of course, be a totally wrong thing to do.

[pnwmom]

96. Soon-Yi is Mia's OWN daughter. Legally and psychologically, there is no difference between

an adopted daughter and a biological daughter.

[JVS]

155. Was, not is. Mia and some of the other Farrow family have shunned her and her husband entirely.

[bettyellen]

27. oh lord, now I have to explain what adoption is? LOL.

This gets sadder all the time.

[quinnox]

40. what's sad is people commenting who don't even know the basic facts of the case

[bettyellen]

60. my statement was accurate. Soon Yi is her daughter, Woody was LT partner- they conspired to fuck

behind Mom and LT partners back, while LT partners were still together.
None of that is in dispute, not sure why "her daughter" threw you for a loop- it's actually very clear.

[quinnox]

65. And they got married, and have remained married ever since

for close to 20 years now. I think its important to note that.

[Bonobo]

71. Twenty years!

Must be tough being attracted to pre-pubescents and all.

[quinnox]

72. Yep, very close to it. I looked it up, they got married on December 24, 1997

[bettyellen]

74. LOL, they pretty much have to stay together after that. she could tank his career in a heartbeat

[quinnox]

75. wow, pretty cynical view there. Maybe it is true love

I don't see why it couldn't be, at any rate.

[bettyellen]

79. it's interesting when you realize how much leverage she has now. he used to avoid parties like the

plague, but she loves them, and he goes to em all now with her. He is trapped and knows it, so it is sort of ironic how the power shifted, huh?

[quinnox]

82. Honestly, I'm not really interested in those details. I just thought that since they have been

married ever since this happened, that does put a different light on this, than say, if they had divorced shortly afterwards. Then I could see how that would look pretty bad.

Anyway, I can certainly understand Mia going berserk and having rage for Woody because of this incident. It makes me think it is not so unlikely that a woman in that terrible situation might go to extreme lengths to "get back at" or ruin their former husband.

[Bonobo]

85. No, he goes to parties now! Don't you see what that REALLY means?

She has the GOODS on him.

He is a pedophile and she has the proof, so she is blackmailing him into going to parties (as opposed to moving out with her children who would, of course, be in danger if he were a pedophile).

Man, she must fucking LOVE parties!

[quinnox]

88. heh

no comment.

[pnwmom]

98. That has nothing to do with how wrong it was for Ronan's father to marry his sister. n/t

[Demo_Chris]

152. Likely longer and more successful than the marriages of some of his critics

Old dude married a twenty year old. The only thing we can really conclude from this is that he has a lot of money. That they remain together when she could easily destroy him kinda suggests that their relationship is going well and their critics should mind their own business.

[pnwmom]

94. Soon-Yi was as much the daughter of Mia as you are the child of your parents or I am of mine.

An adopted daughter is every bit as much a daughter as a biological one. As the grandmother of a beloved little girl who was adopted into our family, I'm appalled that you could say that.

[gollygee]

156. Uhm you don't think Mia adopting her makes her Mia's daughter?

What the hell? If I adopt a kid, that kid is my son or daughter.

[quinnox]

173. No, it does not make her a biological daughter

That is the distinction I was making. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Yes, they are an adopted daughter, but not a biological one. I think its important to state the facts.

[gollygee]

183. It's an irrelevant fact

It doesn't matter how they became mother and daughter.

[kcr]

23. Trying to normalize the dating of underage stepdaughters. It's a new low.

You just can't make this stuff up.

[Bonobo]

32. Underage, no. And normalize, no. That's two fails.

My point is that you may find it creepy to date outside your age, but it does not make you closer to being a pedophile anymore than being gay does.

Sorry you cannot grasp that.

[kcr]

36. And sorry you can't grasp that the children of partners are particularly off limits

because one is a parental figure to them.

[Bonobo]

38. Okay, off limits. But what does it have to do with pedophilia. Isn't that the issue?

So explain it.

How does fucking your GF's sexually mature and of legal age daughter make you a person sexually attracted to 7 year olds.

That's what I don't get.

[kcr]

52. What does it have to do with it?

This whole idea that no one is entitled to have any opinion on his guilt whatsoever apparently. That there's just no way to know. Well, I think there is a way to know. The fact that he thinks the child of his partner isn't off limits is a clue. Just one in the puzzle as to whether or not Dylan Farrow is telling the truth. I would put the Soon Yi Previn clue as a tick under the column in favor of Dylan is telling the truth. I think it's likely that was molesting Soon Yi way before she turned 19.

[Bonobo]

55. That is so lacking in logic that I don't even know where to start.

Here, maybe we can make this easier.

Do you think there is a relationship between being attracted to someone that is young but sexually mature and being attracted to a 7 year pre-pubescent?

[kcr]

59. Once again. Not just talking about being attracted to younger women here.

Soon Yi was the child of his long term partner. He knew her since she was 10.

[Bonobo]

89. So what? He knew her since she was 10. So what?

Oh, I get it. You are suggesting he was diddling her at 10.

Wow, that's quite a statement.

I mean, He's been married to Soon-Yi for 17 years and they have adopted children.

I guess you must think she would allow a pedophile to hang out with them.

[kcr]

123. I'm suggesting it's a possibility

Given he's also accused of molesting his adopted daughter.

If she started out life as his victim and knew no other way and doesn't see him as a pedophile, she wouldn't see it as allowing a pedophile around her kids.

[Bonobo]

125. Yes, that is the circular logic part. nt

[kcr]

134. You don't know what circular logic means n/t

[Bonobo]

135. Yes, I do.

You have concluded that Allen is a pedophile and that makes it easier for you to establish in your mind that he likely had an incestuous relationship with Soon-Yi since she was a child.

It is circular reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. However, the argument is useless because the conclusion is one of the premises. Circular logic cannot prove a conclusion because, if the conclusion is doubted, the premise which leads to it will also be doubted. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.

Having already concluded that Allen is most likely guilty of pedophilia, you conclude that his relationship with Soon-Yi is based upon such pedophiliac behavior (starting at age 10 you suggest though NOWHERE have I reads any suggestion that this may be the case or that anyone has brought up the specter of molestation of Soon-Yi that I have seen).

Interesting the rush to believe the recycled memories of a 7 year old, but no desire to respect the memories and judgment of Soon-Yi, a 10 year old then, and now an adult who speaks multiple languages and has her own children.

[kcr]

138. I have not concluded he's a pedophile

In fact, I've stated repeatedly that not all child molesters are pedophiles. You are the only one who has been arguing as if he has been declared one. No one else has.

Thanks for providing the definition of circular reasoning. I don't see anywhere where I've done so.

[Bonobo]

142. I can see you are big into getting the last word.

I don't have much to say left.

You did not show any relationship between attraction to younger but sexually mature people and the really sick phenomena of pedophila which is sexual attraction to pre-pubescents.

You claim that not all child molesters are pedophiles, something we will have to disagree on. I think that is the definition of pedophilia.

And if you did not say that Woody Allen is a child molesting pedophile, you sure fooled me.

Go on, the last word is yours!

[kcr]

143. And I can see that you'll go right back to an erroneous point even when you've conceded it's wrong

Not all sexual molesters are pedophiles. You've even conceded that. Why do you keep going back to that?

[Bonobo]

145. I never conceded that.

Anyone that gets off on sexually molesting a child is a pedophile.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you would disagree.

What I DID say is that a pedophile need not restrict their behavior (mostly outward) to ONLY being into prepubescent children. In other words, they may be in disguise.

But no, if you like fucking kids, you ARE a pedophile. Sorry if you disagree.

[kcr]

147. See your response to post 128 n/t

[Bonobo]

149. Umm, that doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Pedophiles are defined as people that act out on sexual attraction to children.

It is a matter of logic that simply having sex with a 17 year old does not preclude the possibility of molesting a 7 year old, but that is a million miles from your bizarre statement that molesting children does not mean you are a pedophile.

[kcr]

150. You're wrong.

It is not a bizarre statement. Not all sexual molesters are pedophiles. Many of them are. But not all of them.

[bettyellen]

43. planning that kind of betrayal with your LT partner's own daughter. yikes.

they are both fairly shitty people for doing that.

[Bonobo]

51. Shitty person is related to pedophilia? Seriously. Stop fucking dodging. nt

[bettyellen]

54. never said that. this is that badgering thing, that leads others to walk away quickly- gagging. BYE

[Bonobo]

57. Ha ha ha.

Trying to cut through the bullshit evasions and personal attacks ("creepy!&quot is badgering!

And now, you're signing off in righteous indignation after calling ME "creepy".

Piece of fucking work, you are.

[quinnox]

34. Another common misconception. Soon-Yi was not the step daughter of Woody Allen

Once again, to say other wise is false.

You guys don't even know the basic facts around the case.

[kcr]

46. She was ten years old when they met

The were together for a decade. Semantics.

[opiate69]

39. Yeah.. underage...

In1991, when the relationship began, Allen was 56 and Previn around 19.

[kcr]

49. And she was 10 when Woody and Mia met and began a relationship.

And her age isn't even certain because it wasn't known when she was adopted, so so much for your bolded 19.

[opiate69]

64. Right.. her exact birth year is unknown.. however..

The 19 references in my post is determined by the latest estimate chronologically. Other estimates put her closer to 21 when their romantic relationship started. Either way, your're still laughably, yet predictably, wrong.

[kcr]

68. When the photos were discovered.

It's not known when the relationship started. It could very well have started at 10.

[JackInGreen]

99. And that 'Very well could have' is pretty much

all that's needed then I'll take it?
I hope you're never held to account on a 'could very well have'.

[kcr]

129. Why are you taking it? When I didn't say it?

Nope. Don't believe I said that's all that's needed. Sure didn't! I do believe my exact words were "could have". I'll double check... Yep!

[bettyellen]

172. apparently, it doesn't matter what you or I say- they will quote some other DUer and pretend you

said those things. Better than explaining why they liken fellow DUers to fucking homophobes. Anything's better than trying to rationalize that, I guess.

[BainsBane]

181. You dont' know that's when it began

That is when Mia found nude pictures of Soon-Yi. It may well have begun earlier.

[bettyellen]

42. It reminds me of some blog I was reading - advice for guys if they are afraid they are being creepy

and the number one thing was, sorry if you made someone uncomfortable, but you need to respect it is what it is and get over it.

if a misunderstanding was made, you could try and correct it and move on. hope for a fresh start....
Then maybe you can find someone maybe that gets your sense of humor or agrees with you, awesome. best idea.

But if you try and buttonhole someone and convince them that in any way ("technically" or "legally"come to mind) it wasn't creepy- you just make it ten times worse. Because you are trying to impose your own ideas of what's appropriate, comfortable or ethical on someone else who obviously has other feelings. That weren't easy to express. And that is so fucking disrespectful and gross, and always makes it worse.

[Bonobo]

44. You think that your finding me creepy is some kind of a rational argument?

Look, having sex with a young woman has no relationship with being a pedophile.

That is ALL that I am saying and you making all these passive aggressive "creepy" comments means nothing.

If you think the two are linked, say so.

Do you?

[bettyellen]

53. No, me finding you creepy, misquoting me and being disrespectful are facts though. Which lead me to

need to disengage. Good fucking luck trying to invalidate most people's feelings here by hinting they are akin to homophobes.
Cause that works.

[pnwmom]

104. Allen did not maintain appropriate sexual boundaries with the 19 year old sister

of his three children, Ronan, Dylan, and Moses.


From there, it isn't a huge leap to think that Dylan's anguished outcry might be true. He might not have maintained the appropriate sexual boundary with her, either.

[Bonobo]

120. Again, here is what a boundary is to me:

Oh, that sexually mature 19 year old that is my GF's adopted daughter... she is hot, I want her. But it would be inappropriate. I must have BOUNDARIES.

Now THAT is setting boundaries.

But a person that is not a pedophile. Which is to say has no attraction to children sexually does not NEED to set boundaries. Boundaries are irrelevant.

What I am saying is, that there is no connection between not having boundaries and one's sexual...what do I call them...proclivities? Deviant predilections?

[fadedrose]

33. There are people who feel that way

Last edited Wed Feb 5, 2014, 04:05 AM - Edit history (1)

But until the last few years when gays started coming out of the closet, the public finally became acquainted with real gays - their lives, loves, talents, feelings, and lots of stuff a straight person never knew about....

The loud voices were the people who hated either because of religious beliefs or misconceptions...

Till then, all the public was accustomed to seeing were novels and crime stories, which had nothing to do with real-life gays.

There's been a real education going on, thanks to those brave people who went public, and even to those who haven't gone public, but live a life quite normal in every way.

I've gone through a real change of heart myself, but the change came because of learning.

[1000words]

41. I'm starting to think "Ida Briggs" has the right idea:

Perhaps it's time to clean house ... starting with the hair-on-fire prudes who use their own neuroses and personal dramas as license to act as judge, jury and executioner.

[Bonobo]

47. They are upset to be called out on their crazy fucked up wrongheaded logic.

Having sex with people outside your age range MAY bother you, but it has nothing to do with pedophilia.

End of story.

But I CAN understand why they don't like having their shit exposed.

[1000words]

58. Gee, I don't know ...

What's the "creep factor" on Demi Moore?

[Bonobo]

61. She is a strong woman who "knows herself". nt

[JackInGreen]

103. How DARE you call a strong and willful woman

'Creepy' or indicate she has a 'Creep Factor'...remember, she's a protected class of person, we can only cast doubt and half hearted accusations at NON-protected classes.

[kcr]

133. When did Demi Moore have a relationship with the child of her long term parner

when that child was a teenager? I hadn't heard about that?

[Bonobo]

136. You can't get off the Soon-Yi thing.

And I rejoice because it consistently is reinforcing the accuracy of my OP.

The "sin" of being involved with your GF's child is NOT RELATED to the sin of pedophilia.

[kcr]

141. I didn't make that poster compare her to Demi Moore nt

[zappaman]

69. Lol!

[cyberswede]

73. What?

Who, specifically, do you think needs to be removed? I'm sure you have a nice tidy list, collected in your 4 months here.

...and while I'm sure people here participate in juries, in what possible context are DUers "executioners?"

[BainsBane]

179. Passing judgment on guys who rape seven year olds

Is just so moralistic.

[BainsBane]

178. I hope I'm on the list

because if you consider opposition to pedophilia "being a hair-on-fire prude," we don't occupy the same universe.

[Whisp]

45. huh?

wtf

??

lol.

[LittleBlue]

66. It's 2014 and a few people are still talking about Allen and Soon Yi

The molestation accusation is a valid topic. But bringing up Soon Yi in 2014? Yikes! Welcome back to the early 90s. What's next, Ashton and Demi? Billy Bob and Angelina? Time to move on, folks.

[wocaonimabi]

151. Fundies skeeve me out just like pedophiles

some may disagree but I see very little difference between the 2 groups of people.

Both cause permanent psychological and physical damage and both groups prey on the young and vulnerable.

[gollygee]

153. The Woody Allen issue has NOTHING to do with homosexuality

and the issue of an adult sleeping with a younger sexually mature person also has NOTHING to do with homosexuality.

[Iggo]

161. Trashing.

And people need to let this shit go.

Both sides coming out looking real ugly.

[bettyellen]

163. Kicking this, so everyone can get ready to be smeared as analagous to a homophobe....

lest they deem any and all *probably legal* behavior morally repugnant. Because accusations of pearl clutching weren't enough, and you can let your values guide your judgement of people's behavior!!

They have to go there. Repulsive and embarrassing.

[seabeyond]

164. this is a new low, bonobo.

[William769]

174. Welcome back.

[seabeyond]

175. Than you, william. Nt

[BainsBane]

177. Yet it keeps a familar theme going

[seabeyond]

180. yes. and the insults. nt

[Arugula Latte]

166. Some people are homophobes, so Woody Allen is innocent. Got it.

[LanternWaste]

182. Whatever it takes to make banging your girlfriend's daughter sound more palatable will be done...

Whatever it takes to make banging your girlfriend's daughter sound more palatable will be done... (but it's still kinda creepy)